The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Join me as I talk to other knifemakers, craftsmen and artisans in my journey to unpack the mysteries of knifemaking, and the culture by which it's built. This podcast features interviews with many of the men and women who have built, or are building the industry of knives and knife making as we know it today. Visit us at thegoodolbladespodcast.com!
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The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Episode 47 - Beautiful People are Forged in Fire - J. Neilson & Shelley Marie
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Knife makers, as much as they can be celebrities within our industry, are often not well known outside of it. With tens of millions of people seeing him judge on Forged in Fire over the last 9 years of the show, J. Neilson has reached meteoric attention in the public eye, is a household name, and you may think that all of that attention would go to a guy's head. For J, It hasn't. He's one of the most humble guys, with a great sense of humor, and is a superb mastersmith to boot. Shelley and J make a great team, and Shelley's work in knives and being a companion and champion of J's, has also foisted her into the public eye. Making some great knives herself, it's no wonder why they work well together. She is a smart cookie, accomplished nurse, and a very kind soul. I always wonder how individuals can remain so humble and attentive in the sight of so many changing events, but like a blade that's forged out of adversity and necessity, so too are people forged by life and circumstance, and sometimes they come out beautiful. J and Shelley are those kind of folks.
You can find J.Neilson on his Instagram posting up regularly, and find his work on his Website. Obviously you can watch Forged in Fire with him on it. :) You can also find Shelley on her Instagram.
Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeBeer. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about anything and everything knives. Like many knife makers and non-knifemakers alike, I first came to know Jay Nielsen as the judge from Fortune Fire. Through the years, I've watched Jay and what he's been doing in the context of social media, on the Fortune Fire show, and at local knife shows, and really came to admire him using his celebrity status to promote the men and women in knives and suppliers of knife making equipment and tools. That's probably what my largest motivation was for wanting to get a moment to chat with him. Through a series of serendipitous events, I came to meet Jay and Shelly at the Texas Select Show. Shelly is a great knife maker in her own right and operates gypsy soul knives. But you wouldn't believe she's only been making knives since Jay and her met, and she's already many steps ahead of the game. Her thirst for pushing her own limits and a tough teacher in Jay makes them a great team. What came next was a bunch of conversations around getting Jay and Shelly on a podcast, and then of course this episode. Jay and Shelly, it's great to have you on the Good Old Blakes Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Hello!
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. Yeah. Um well I can't uh I I can say that in my in my mind I was wanting to have this conversation for a long time, and I don't think that I ever really had an opportunity to uh sync up with y'all. Um but then at Texas Select it was like the perfect opportunity. Although I I have to say it was kind of hard because you had like long lines of fanboys and girls constantly coming up to you. But it's great that we finally get to got to talk and get to you know got to set up something preliminary about uh having you guys on the the podcast. So thank you very much for joining me here.
SPEAKER_00No, happy, happy to do it. I mean we try it we we try to talk to everybody and and all that stuff, but you know this media just makes it so much easier and we appreciate the invite.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh it's absolutely a pleasure. Um so I I think probably uh what would be best for the sake of starting out is you know, every great story starts with the beginning. Um and I'd like to get a little bit of each one of your uh story on on knives and everything um and in your journey through it. Uh, you know, uh Jay, there's obviously uh conversations about you know forged and fire and things like that that we can we can talk about too. Um but I I'm I'm really interested, you know, just to let's let's start out at the beginning what got you guys both into knives individually and give uh our audience a little bit more deeper dive into who you guys are and um and whatnot, and then we can go from there, okay?
SPEAKER_02All right.
SPEAKER_00Well, well mine was a very sad start. Um I was very, very um poor kid in Virginia who stumbled across a knife show and went in and thought it was really cool, and I bought a what I thought was a really cool 440C stainless steel buoy blade and a piece of this bleached out antler and a chunk of brass, and I was like, this is cool, I'm gonna start a hobby. And I realized this is not a hobby, this work.
SPEAKER_01Famous last words, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I but I I did it. I mean, I like I said, I I was working full-time, you know, doing odd stuff, yeah, whatever. I was never career-oriented, which is probably what pushed me towards to make knives full-time. Um but yeah, yeah, I was doing it as a side thing just because it was fun, and the fact that the jobs I was working, I couldn't afford a good knife, so I figured, well, if I wanted something, I'd had to make it on my own. So that's basically where it started. Yeah, I started out uh grinding saw blades and files and coming up with you know, the ugliest designs we all start off with, with what we're working with, and it just progressed from there and sure as heck didn't think it was gonna end up being where it ended up, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_03And you were pretty much self-taught in the beginning, right?
SPEAKER_00You didn't you you were pretty well into it before somebody took you under their wing and aside from the fact that when I started this, there was no such thing as an internet. There weren't even cell phones. If you had to call somebody, there was a cord connected to you to the wall. So I mean, it was a little bit of a while ago, but yeah, I was I it basically, like I said, I bought that kit kind of at a show and got interested, and uh, I bought Blade Magazine when I could find it, like everybody else, and I started trying to make knives as a hobby and started with stock removal. And yeah, really, I mean I I started off so ignorant. Uh I still to this day people tell me I put my logo on the wrong side of the knife because I didn't know there was a right side to put it on when I started out until I actually went to a knife show in Pennsylvania, probably six or seven years after I started making knives.
SPEAKER_03And somebody told you you did it wrong?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Keith Keith told me. Keith Bagley told me I was I was put on the wrong side. He he basically I've said I've told the story forever. Keith basically Tim'd my table, took pity on me, and invited me to his shop in Maryland for a weekend. And and uh that was basically the first instruction I ever had. He he taught me how to forge weld and forge cable Damascus, and it he gave me two days and then that's a get out.
SPEAKER_03And Keith was a farrier by trade and took up blacksmithing and knife making and then took pity on poor baby J Neil Sunday.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he did. And Keith Bagley's still making knives. He's been making knives forever. He he's he got this guy's a diehard. Uh, but makes beautiful Damascus and he's a great he's been teaching people for years and stuff. He's a great guy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's super rad. And uh uh Shelley, what about you?
SPEAKER_03Um, well I am a uh nurse by trade. Um I work critical care, which is ER and ICU, and I've been doing travel nursing for the past seven or eight years. I was here in Pennsylvania, not far from here on an assignment. And um this was two years ago. Um, I had taken a break between uh a typical assignment's 13 weeks long, and I took a break and went to Ireland with some friends of mine, flew back here, um, picked up some stuff, and I was going home back to Texas for a week and then coming back to do a whole nother 13-week assignment. So this was kind of a break in between. So um I got a free upgrade on my flight from Pennsylvania to Texas, and I sat next to this man. Um his name was Jay Nielsen. Um we had a very strange and interesting encounter and um exchanged email information. Um and so when I came back up here in Pennsylvania from Texas, we decided to meet. Um, we started dating.
SPEAKER_02Um good fire at the Ford.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and uh it's probably about the second or third time I was at his house. We went out to the shop. Let me back up a little bit. I had no idea who Jay Nielsen was. I didn't know anything about custom knife making or that whole entire universe that's out there that I know about now. Um I kind of thought Damascus was ugly, and I have eaten those words since then. Um, because let me preface that by saying the only Damascus I had ever seen is like at the flea market, you know, the the Pakistani Damascus with the Pakistani.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean. That's what they call it. I don't know if that's where it's from. And the rainbow colored handles from that what is that wood called sanitizing.
SPEAKER_00No, oh, you're talking about diamond wood.
SPEAKER_03The diamond wood, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Diamondwood pack wood.
SPEAKER_03Anyway, so that statement came back to kind of bite me in the butt because then I started researching who he was, who what Force and Fire was. I didn't even know about the TV show or anything.
SPEAKER_00You lied to me.
SPEAKER_03And uh I said, I owe you an ap. Probably after we've been together for about a month, I said, I owe you an apology. I had no idea what Damascus was or what went into making it. Um so I spent a day in the shop. I got bit by the bug, and I've been making about a year and a half. Um and I make my own Damascus, and when I can, I'm I'm actually finishing my nursing degree, and I do have my real job is being a nurse still. So I don't have as much time as I'd like, but Jay is is teaching me um the basics. I've I've made several full tang knives, and um here real soon, probably in the next week or so, we will begin our hidden tank classes together. Um we've got a couple of pieces forged out um ready to go, and he's gonna take me through the steps. I do um the canister demos with him when we're at shows. I don't know if you saw the one down there in Belleville, but I'm actually the one running the forge, doing the um forge welding and peeling the can open at the end of the demonstration. So I'm getting pretty good at canister Damascus. I will say that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've learned over the years to let somebody else do the hard work. So I basically just run my mouth and Shelly does the work. So anytime they talk about, hey, G Nielsen's doing a canister demo, you know, Damascus demo, it's like, yeah, well, I'm talking, she's doing the work. I finally got smart after 10 years.
SPEAKER_01Spoken like a true teacher, uh let your uh let your protege do all the work and take all the credit. Exactly. Well, that's pretty cool. Um I have a a lot of respect uh for uh travel nurses. Uh you know, my uh uh our daughter was a congenital heart defect uh child, and so she uh she has been in and out of hospitals until she was three and then went into heart failure and had a heart transplant.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and she's doing well. She's five years post-op, uh she's doing doing pretty well. But um, you know, the a large portion of the of our interaction with nurses at these large children's hospitals was uh uh traveling nurses. And you know, it's uh kind of bittersweet because you know, for her for her heart transplant journey, we were in the hospital for almost a year. I was gonna say, yeah. Yeah, uh yeah, because she she went into uh heart failure over at Cook Children's um after a surgery and then moved over to Dallas Children's because they're the transplant hospital. And so we we saw lots of nurses uh come and go. Um and it's bittersweet because you know you form really close relationships in some ways um uh with with them. And it's nice to see them go and do something else and to enjoy that culture of travel nursing, but also bitter because you know they they kind of know what your normals are. They see your kid and they know every day what to expect. And so it's like you gotta retrust somebody all over again.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I get that. I I understand that for sure. Um uh at the tail end of the co of COVID, I was down in Houston and I was working at Houston Methodist on in the CVICU, and part of that was transplant, and they were one of the hospitals that one of the very few hospitals that kept doing transplants throughout COVID. Most of the pro you know, most of the programs were put on hold. And um, you know, I had patients that were there you know, that were on pumps and stuff like that, waiting for their heart. They got their heart, and you know, you see them, you know, circle back around to do the rehab part. So I got I got to follow a few, just a small handful through their journey, and I was like, that's really cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh I have a lot of respect for nurses. Um I don't I don't think that our lives would be quite the same without that level of compassion and and empathy. Um so and and advocacy too. So uh Jay, you definitely have a uh you picked a good one.
SPEAKER_00Uh well I thought it was pretty smart for somebody who cuts and burns themselves constantly to have nervous on hands on a regular basis. And the fact she can cook good too, that that that don't help. She she brings a lot of uh Texas flair to my boring Pennsylvania plates.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they say that uh they say that white people don't use seasonings, but I think it's just a Yankee thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I thought I didn't I thought my body didn't handle seasoning, then I just realized I didn't get seasoning.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, well, it's uh you know, I I'm a transplant uh down to Texas. Um I moved down here when I was just just before I was 19 uh for work. But I I had grown up in the area that you are uh around there. So uh um we were like uh Bloomsburg um uh Nescope area.
SPEAKER_00Bloomsburg Fair, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I uh um at Bloomsburg, I had played uh violin in the in the uh community chamber and symphony orchestras there for quite a few years. And we were my my mom grew up in the area of Nescapec, and so we'd lived there just it's t technically Nescopec address, but almost a Muffinville. So, you know, that's uh it's uh it's funny how like I got into knives after I moved to Texas and after I'd gotten divorced. I guess I I I got into knives um as a custom maker, uh, but you know, had been exposed to it a a long time, and I didn't realize how much like great talent was in the area that I used to live in, but had no idea because you know it wasn't like everybody was on the internet even at that time.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's funny because that's it even with the internet, I mean I still had a hard time, and and still to this day, I mean, I have a hard time finding somebody in this area. That's why when it's funny, we go to Texas, I make a joke, I can kick a rock in Texas and hit a knife maker anytime, any time of the day. Uh but yeah, up here there there wasn't a lot of people, and like I said, you know, one of the things I will definitely give Fortune Fire credit for is it exposed how many people were out there in these nooks and crannies and dead-end roads and back neighborhoods and back hills that were banging away steel and making knives and stuff, and nobody knew anything about. Um, and it's just it became a floodwater. Just you know, knife makers were just coming out of the woodwork because nobody had any reason to say, hey, this is what I do. I mean, because when I would go to a social function, you know, I'd stand next to a gunsmith and the guns, you know, they'd say, Hey, what do you do? I'm a gunsmith. Oh, that's really cool. What do you do? Oh, I make knives for a living, and everybody would take like two steps back. And it's like, excuse me, this guy can kill you from a mile away. Why why am I the creepy guy here? So the fact that it was kind of bringing people out of the woodwork and actually showing what they could do with so little, um, I think it really helped to like revitalize things and and make people realize, hey, there's a lot of people out here are doing this stuff because even I didn't realize there were so many. I mean, even Dave Baker and I, during the the pilot of the show, we were like two seasons, maybe three tops, that's it. Then it's gonna get stale and nobody's gonna know anything. And we finished ten seasons already, and it's still going strong, so apparently the interest is out there, and there's a lot of people that are still hiding out making knives.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh see more and more. Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, yeah, to uh to your point about um like kind of hidden gems, um Robert Appleby is in front that same area, and I've yeah, I've enjoyed his knives for a while, but I actually didn't know that he was from Nescapec area. And I actually found out when I when I saw those uh the Lehigh Valley um knife show, um I was actually invited to it. I was as a Texan, as a knife maker, I was invited to it down here, and I was like, well, it's a it's a long way to travel to to go up there, but man, some great um great craftsmen coming out for the Lehigh Valley show.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Lehigh Valley knife show is always good. I've known Rob for years. Um matter of fact, that that little Keystone knife show in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, that was the first one I went to. That's when I met Keith, and that's when I get interest in the forging knives. Um, I met Rob there. God, it was probably a hundred years ago. Um, and I I still see Rob posting stuff, and yeah, I talked to him once in a blue moon. Rob makes some clean work. He's he's one of the things I love about Rob's work, it's always super clean.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, he definitely um he has that old school guild style uh uh quality to his work, you know, like lots of great high polish, lots of great Damascus fit and finish is perfect. Uh I uh I applaud his craftsmanship, especially uh finding his way in that uh in you know relative isolation up there because uh I don't know. Nescapek is real real hillbully. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh that's okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh but so what um uh Jay, what what w transpired to get you to the place of forged and fire? Can you talk about that journey?
SPEAKER_00Uh it was actually really um dull. Uh I was in the shop. It was uh it had to be in the summer because I had the garage door open and I was making Damascus, I was forging steel, and I had a phone call, and there was this you know lady's voice on the phone said, Hey, this is so-and-so from the History Channel, and we'd like to talk to you about you know doing a reality TV show about you know a knife making competition. And my immediate response was okay, yeah, yeah. Who is this really? And put the dumbass knife maker on the phone. Because we had all of us had heard at knife shows, you know, oh, they're talking about, you know, because I mean, yeah, chopped was a big thing, uh, the motorcycle reality TV shows, you know, the making things shows was starting to be a thing. And everybody had talked about, oh yeah, they're gonna do a knife make and a forging show. And you know, we had all heard that for a few years, but nobody ever heard anything solid. So when I got a phone call out of the blue, uh I thought it was a prank. I thought it was one of my buddies, you know, having his wife or his girlfriend call me and and pulling a prank on me. So it took them probably a good 10 minutes to convince me they were actually from the History Channel. Um, and you know, they say you know, they explained the basic premise. Um, one of the reasons they actually got me involved because I used to watch the Chopped TV show and I used to enjoy it a lot, and I don't watch a lot of TVs. Normally I just watch a lot of bad horror movies. Um, but I always liked that show, and then they told me, well, the guy who made Chopped is making this show.
SPEAKER_03He's the writer or producer or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and the funny thing is when you look back at it, Forge and Fire is exactly like Chopped. It's almost the same show. So I said, hey, yeah, if you come to this pilot, you know, you'll get to meet him. I was like, well, I don't know, you know, and just like most of the knife makers I met early on, I don't know. I don't know if I want to really be involved in a reality TV show and stuff like that. And she goes, No, no, wait, we want you to be one of the judges. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, that sounds fun. Let's pick it up. Yeah. My my attitude turned around 180 on that. And uh, yeah, they they flew us, I think it was 2014 or something like that. They flew us out to Seattle, and uh, we did the pilot, and I thought it was gonna be a nightmare, and it ended up being pretty pretty cool. We and uh amazingly enough, a few months later I got a phone call and said, uh, we're actually gonna pursue this. And yeah, like I said, like ten seasons later, who'd have thought.
SPEAKER_03And and he thinks one of the reasons why, you know, this is purely just speculation that they they reached out to him is because he did use to do YouTube videos um of him, you know, destroying or trying to destroy his own work, you know, just to Prove how well it stood up, you know, to be an abused and used the wrong way and stuff. So he already had like a couple of videos where he did that. So um that kind of translated into his particular judging style, I think.
SPEAKER_00Plus, I was one of the few Master Smiths that wasn't like 900 years old.
SPEAKER_03That's true too.
SPEAKER_00I actually could crack a joke every once in a while. I know I'm gonna get hell for that. I'm sorry, guys.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was gonna say you're gonna catch hell for that.
SPEAKER_00I'll catch hell for that, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, not not wrong though, because I mean, uh, well, I think uh funny thing is that you know, I I pursued the knife maker's guild path. I'd gotten it gotten out of forge work because I hurt my shoulder real bad. It was like a rotator cuff for frozen shoulder issue. And so I started forging. Oh, yeah, and then I went to stock removal, so I pursued the guild path. But really, it it's kind of like Freemasonry where it's like for old people, um, you know, and uh you know, the knife and fork club and stuff like that. And um, you need faces that are uh part of the the the zeitgeist that you want, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so you you have to have people that look look uh young and sexy like uh Jay Nielsen in order to uh excite those kind of people.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm gonna completely ignore that, but I am gonna comment on the fact that I actually went the opposite route. I started stock removal. Uh I made stock removal knives for I think three or four years. At least three or four years before I actually went to a show and saw what a Forge Blade was. And well, that's when uh actually that's when Moran started, you know, the whole thing with the Damascus becoming a thing again. And I I started stock removal and I was cool with that. But when I saw Damascus, I was like, well, I I want to make that, I don't want to buy it. You know, because there was tons of people making Damascus and selling bars. I wanted to make my own. So that's actually what got me into forging because before that I was a stock removal guy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that that makes sense. I I think that there is a an allure uh to the uh 100%er uh type of mentality about about knives. Like I want to do everything soup to nuts because that's true true craftsmanship. I mean, it's a it's uh it's the same kind of concept as in like uh Japanese sword making. You know, even though they had apprentices and other people who are doing certain things, the masters were the ones that controlled the entire process. And that's been something that people have aligned with for a long time as far as how that is related to quality of you know the final piece. Right.
SPEAKER_03Um being new to knife making and the whole culture of it, um I was I was really surprised at the the difference of you know, you can have 10 knife makers and they're all gonna have they're all gonna do it different ways and have their own way, but yet the knife making community it um tries to um appreciate everyone, you know, if if you're a stock removal guy or you know, you do everything like you said, you know, from beginning to end kind of thing, you know, all yourself handmade kind of stuff. There's so many different levels, and I I was really surprised to learn that. Um and it's it's still it's it's really a lot of fun to just walk around a knife show and see everybody else's interpretation of a knife, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When when you get to walk around, yeah, right. I I think that that is actually one thing that has uh been a larger influence from Forged and Fire is that the the culture of you know bringing up knife makers who previously were you know hobbyists or unconventional methods for uh making or things like that. Um you know, back in the day it used to be, you know, you were in you were either uh kind of a lone wolf, you were in the ABS or you were in the guild. And if you didn't have have that level of craftsmanship or you didn't have that uh seat at the table, then you you know you had to do it yourself. And with Forge Forge and Fire, I think it legitimized the craft of knife making outside of those um organizations and that um, I guess, gatekeeping, as it were, and made it more accessible to people. So definitely you could see where you know especially with knife shows, you have a a large array of different types of knife makers. The only the only thing is a stock n a stock removal guy now, um I get pelted with stone stones sometimes by the customer base because they want forged forged knives, and I'm a stock removal guy, so I kind of get a little bit like a uh uh you know a a weird eye looked at me for stock removal, but you even still I I well I pitched several times.
SPEAKER_00Um obviously I don't know anything about television because when we were at the um the the pilot shoot I asked Doug specifically, please don't say it will kill you sound like an idiot. And that became the biggest tagline from the TV show ever. So obviously I know nothing about television, and I should just listen to what Doug has to say because he's smarter than I am about this. Um but it's just it's it's just really weird the way it all came about and how much it it's it's helped things out and changed some stuff. Um, but I've I've tried before um to suggest some different things. Uh one was obviously a youth episode. I've been trying since season two to get one of those going. Um, but another one was a stock removal version. Why couldn't you do? I mean, basically, you took chopped and turned it into forging fire. What why couldn't you take chopped and turn it into a stock removal competition? Um, you could throw folders, you could throw slip joints, uh, you could throw all kinds of different stuff. You could do that with forging also, but I mean, there's a there's a whole nother variant you could throw out a spin-off of stock removal, um, straight stock removal, folders, period pieces, youth challenges. There's so many more things you could do. Um hell, I even told them once that you could fire me and just I'll come back and do the youth episode, the first one for free for crying out loud, just because I've been trying to get it done for so long. Because I get I get handwritten letters from kids that are like 10 years old. I didn't first of all I didn't even know kids could write letters anymore and put stamps on them. But I get letters with kids sending me pictures and and diagrams and describing how they would do their knife in this episode and stuff like that. I mean, there's a huge youth audience out there that we haven't even tapped into yet. Um, I mean, forge and fire itself, I mean, one of the things that's helped is we're perpetuating our own contestants.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're making he they're creating their own contestants. They have people coming on now that say, Oh, well, I watched an episode of Forge and Fire, you know, six years ago and decided to start doing it. And now now they're there, they're on the show.
SPEAKER_00And now they're like, I want you to test my knife. I was like, oh, geez. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I uh I guess that's probably the uh the one thing about being knife makers is that we probably uh should stick stick in our lanes, as it were, because uh I've thought about that too, where I think certain things are cool ideas, and then people who are maybe more marketing-minded are like that's never gonna work. And true to form, there's some there's there's a difference, I think, between people who enterprise enterprise to uh convince the masses that something's cool than it are is that you know the people who are perpetuating that. Like, I mean, you for instance, that's a great idea. I think that you know having a youth episode or a show or or something that celebrates uh youth in the craft is a great idea. But at the same time, I can understand where the populace at large doesn't want to see a bunch of kids making knives all the time. You know, it's not as alluring as uh you know all the drama and stuff.
SPEAKER_00My argument on that is chopped kids.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They're actually using more equipment and more dangerous stuff than we do on Forge and Fire. And they have a whole series. So that's my argument on that. I I'll I'll stop from there because nobody in TV listens to me anyway.
SPEAKER_01Well, you're just gonna have to do it yourself, right? You want it done right. Oh, yeah, I'll get sued myself. That's great. Uh you know, uh uh on Chopped, um, I actually my my wife's best friend um was on Chopped. She uh worked in a uh pizzeria called Pizzeria Toro. Um in Marla Thurman. I've actually thought about inviting her onto the podcast to talk about um what Chopped did for her and also how she thinks of knives as it functions within uh culinary and uh what she's done what she did with the pizzeria. She's been all over the world doing cooking stuff and things like that too.
SPEAKER_00But I'd listen to that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll have to have her on. I think I think that she'd probably say yes, but she might also tell me no.
SPEAKER_00Well, you never know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's about the same way with asking knife makers to be on any podcast because they're curmudgeons that don't like technology.
SPEAKER_00That's funny, Shelly calls me a curmudgeon all the time.
SPEAKER_03Well, as you can see, it was me that set this up and called in. So that's a good point, actually. I just had to make him sit down and talk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So um I'm I'm interested, uh Jay, what you know, you you have Doug's like It Will Kill uh type of uh you know catchphrase and everything. What do you think that your particular allure is uh in in the the context of the show that's led to uh your your own uh celebrity and whatnot? Because I've always been interested, like you're a very consistent and thoughtful and intelligent person. That's that's the way that I s I see you conduct yourself in the you know in public interactions. But what what do you think is the reason why uh you've been endeared to the knife making community?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, first of all, I I I don't I some people tell me it's a compliment, but I've been called for years the Simon Cow of knife making. Um I think there is a good group of people out there that can appreciate the fact that because I come off as like kind of like the jerk on the show, but I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just being very straightforward, trying to be telling what to do. And I've learned over 10 seasons you don't elaborate, there's sound bites, because if you elaborate, you're gonna get cut. So you make very sharp, concise points so they don't get on the cutting room floor during production, and you try to get your point across and help the person. Um, because honestly, I mean the other P the other the main reason I think most people like watching me is because I will try to break your stuff. Um everybody tells me you should probably back off and all that, but I was like, they did not put on my paycheck to back off. They put on my paycheck to break stuff, to do the best you can to test this stuff to its physical limits, and that translates into I'm gonna break your shit. So, and that's what people kind of get used to, and that's what people enjoy, even though I really hate breaking pupils because I know what it I know what it takes. I know what they go through on that floor. Um, I've competed on the floor, it's horrible, it's painful. And have your stuff destroyed, it's heartbreaking and stuff like that. I don't enjoy doing it, but if it's gonna break, I'm gonna break it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean, also uh I think that that methodology is also really good for um nurturing makers into the mentality of what is uh required for the ABS, right? Because I mean at both the junior uh or the journeyman smith and the mastersmith levels, you have to go through uh you know a bend test. Like you have to be able to destroy your.
SPEAKER_00I actually did a ben test. We did some.
SPEAKER_03There's there's still two weeks ago you did somebody's JS.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, I did a journeyman test here. Yeah, I've done well several journeyman and master tests. Um, but we even did some stuff, and there's still a bunch of stuff, outtakes and and episodes that haven't aired yet. Uh, but we did a ben test where I broke a blade and uh didn't just to see the comparison and stuff like that. So I mean, yeah, destroying stuff, that's I mean, nobody is going to put their knife through what we've put them through on the TV show. At the same time, nobody's gonna get a wedding cake for the wedding that was made in six hours from somebody who was in a panic. I mean, it's a TV show for God's sake. It's a game show.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We're just but the fact that uh these people come out of nowhere, don't know what is gonna happen to them. They have deer-in-the-head light looks, and they still produce stuff that 90% of the time I can't hurt no matter what I do to it, or the other judges either. Um, I mean, that's just a testament to the craftsmanship that's out there and what people produce. I mean, it's really impressive. Uh yeah, we kind of thought this was gonna be a nightmare when we walked into it initially. And uh one thing I will say, Will Willis always said cream rises to the top. Yeah, we make it harder and harder all the time, and these people still perform and they still pull amazing works out of nowhere that I don't think would survive, and and they do, and it's the craftsmanship's really incredible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because uh I mean the the format is really in some ways designed to uh dis be disruptive enough where um you know most people would fail at it if they didn't have a good adaptive head on their shoulders. Oh god, yes.
SPEAKER_00We've had people just fall out. Uh I mean, literally like you know, stretchers, ambulances, you know, sometimes it's the heat, sometimes it's just stress.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they they panic.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. It just you know, it just they just collapse sometimes. It just happens. Uh it's really funny. I mean, I can quantify that by saying Dave Baker and I both have had conversations because when we would go on the floor and compete, yeah, we've we watched what seven, eight seasons of this show. We know every stupid thing that you do that you shouldn't do. And both of us looked at each other and said, Yep, we did every one. Everyone. We looked at our contestants, we looked at the clock, we did everything you'd say you're not supposed to do when you're up at that table. And but yeah, just it's just human nature. It's meant to shake you up. And I mean, that's the whole idea of these game shows.
SPEAKER_03Putting on the pressure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um well I've also um observed that uh in the knife making community there's uh a high degree of integrity too, because even even with all that stress and the uh the constraints with the show and whatnot, there's a lot of people that come out and are pretty um pretty pretty genteel about the entire experience. I mean, I don't I don't know what uh goes on the cutting room floor as far as like contestants being assholes and and argumentative and whatnot, but it seems at least that uh the the larger majority of makers, you know, take it on the chin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00As far as I know, the best of my knowledge, in the entire ten seasons, we probably only had only two contestants that went kind of ape shit. Um my favorite example is God, I think it was like season three, maybe or something. Um, Phil Evans. He's a knife maker, I've known forever. Um it was, I think it was him, maybe it was Ryu. Was it the satellite dish? I think it was Ryu, yeah, I was thinking it was Ryu with the satellite dish. Ryu had no idea how to use the press and the power hammer. And Phil Evans, I believe he's a journeyman smith, but again, he's a knifemaker I've known forever. Uh, he was on the show. He literally took 20 minutes, and they're on the clock. He took 20 minutes out of his time to show Ryu how to work the press and the power hammer, and Ryu moved on to the finale, and Phil didn't. And Phil has no problems with this. He has no issues, and I've talked to him about it after the fact.
SPEAKER_03He's told this story a couple of times, and he's just wild. He needed help.
SPEAKER_00He needed help. I helped him out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because that's just the way it is, because I didn't I didn't finish as well as he did. That's all there is. And that's the idea with nightmakers. And you would think nightmakers would be the first people to stab somebody in the back, you know, especially in the I know it's a that was a terrible one. I know. Game show. Come on. People always stabbing each other in the back in game shows, reality TV shows.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they this is they make that part of the script.
SPEAKER_00This is the one, there is no script. These people are just being the way they are.
SPEAKER_03And that's one thing that I noticed too. Um, being new to knife making, um going to shows and stuff like that. At first I was very shy, wouldn't ask any questions, but then after I got used to it, I would start to ask more questions, and people very readily would give you, you know, answer your questions, try to help you out, give you points. Yeah, give you information and tools, you know, that you would you could take back and use. They weren't everybody was always very friendly and willing to answer my questions and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I I think that also um that shows in your in your own personal journey in knife making, because you know, I've I've gone back through and looked at what when you got into knives and the uh um I mean being candid quality of your work, you know, as a as a learner, right? We all do that. And e even even the knives that you're producing now in that short amount of time have excelled um a lot, right? Right. And uh I I I think that that's something that it's it's really easy to get discouraged when everybody are they're being jerks and judgmental and non-cooperative or helpful and giving you good feedback. But you can see that as somebody who was was not even knife adjacent, but just like got like got into the level of uh quality and thought that you're putting into your work is I think a testament to the learning environment as well as your own aptitude.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you very much. I I mean, and I've always had an artistic eye and you know, never really did painting and stuff like that, but you know, color palettes, decorating, form, um, and that kind of thing. I've always had a natural eye for. And originally the building that is now the shop in Texas, I was going to um throw pottery. I was gonna have my own little pottery um studio. That's what I had planned for that building, and now it's changed. It's a it's a shop, a knife making shop.
SPEAKER_00I don't know about this all organic stuff and whatever. The one reason even my son had a time limit in my shop as much as I love him. The reason that Shelly's been in the shop and and I've been working with her and teaching her is because she's got one of the qualities that I always look for. Anybody who's crafting something, they get about 60% of weight through it, and then they're not happy anymore. And they just want to finish it and get done and make the next one better. And that that attitude of, okay, okay, diet like this, I'm gonna make next one better. And next one's okay, I like this part of this one, this one's gonna be better than that one, and that progressive idea of the next one's always gonna be better, and that now I'm starting to sound like a weird hippie, that creative growth or or whatever. I don't know, that attitude that I don't see as often as I like. And when she showed that, I was like, Okay, yeah, we you come back here, we can we can work together, we can he allowed me because you know Jay doesn't do a printing. I I don't know. I don't I don't have a lot of patience, but yeah, the fact that if you're satisfied, if you if you make a half dozen knives and you're satisfied with your work, you really need Just stop and start collecting stamps or making airplanes or something like that, because you're not going to go anywhere. You have to be constantly not quite satisfied with your work all the time.
SPEAKER_03No, it makes sense. You're yeah. It makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and I um I think that it is pretty clear um uh in the industry, right? Those who, you know, they have a shot on forge and fire or they um a shot at um you know being in the public eye. And some people, like uh Neil Kamamura, they took that as an opportunity to escalate his game. I mean, now look at where he's at.
SPEAKER_02Um, I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, you you have some some knife makers that take what they what they got out of the experience and what they got from the publicity and whatnot, and take it to another level and are always trying to push their own envelope. And then you have others that you know went on it and they're like, okay, like I'll I'll I'll come up to the uh reunions for Forge and Fire and you know um you know tell what's you know episode and season I was and everything, but uh sometimes they they fall flat or they just want that specific thing and that's all they wanted out of the uh you know the experience.
SPEAKER_00So no, absolutely. I mean there's they I mean it's just like folks who get a knife making or get into forging blades or forging Damascus, and people say, Hey, yeah, when are you gonna be a forging fire? Well, I don't really want to. And it's just like when are you gonna test for journeymen? When you test for mat well, I really don't want to. I just enjoy making knives. Okay, that's perfectly cool too. You know, you do whatever you want. That's one of the great things about this. I mean, there's not a lot of pressure. It's like, oh, you make knives, you have to do this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's no script that you have to follow.
SPEAKER_00It's basically it's a hobby you can take as seriously as you want to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Just like cooking cars or anything else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've I've noticed the same thing. I think uh you know, as part of like the podcast and everything, I've tried to discover, you know, like what causes people to create things, right? Because I mean, I if I look at a lot a lot of knife makers um specifically, they could do any type of craft um and and probably be successful at it. Um, you know, uh there's lots of this knife the knife adjacency with like engraving and scrimshaw and silversmithing and jewelry and all these other things. Like not that that you know you can apply to knives, but you know, all these craftsmen are uh really great in those areas too. And it's like what what makes you decide to wake up every day and say, I'm gonna choose choose knives uh when there's so many other interesting things to do. Sometimes I think it's some of it has to do Yeah, probably. But I mean it's I mean it's uh man man's oldest tool, right? So I mean I can I I can get behind the fact that there's an allure because there's so much ac applicability uh to knives in in daily life, which you know, engraving is great, it's beautiful, but it'll it's also been um uh associated more with uh you know jewelry and watches and um you know guns and things like that, uh more so than knives and someone. Sorry, okay.
SPEAKER_03Well, one of the things to go back to the creative hippie side of it, as you said, is the thing that I um really appreciate when I create something, it's gonna be around forever. You know, I mean it that knife that I made is gonna be passed down to, you know, for generations or forgotten somewhere and somebody will dig it up later, but it's still, you know, it'll still be my creation that I made. The handles material may be falling off of it, but it's still, you know, it's gonna be something that's gonna be around forever. Or for a really time anyway.
SPEAKER_01Well, and um yeah, I mean, I'm uh I'm all for like the that I guess that hippie uh type of thought because you know, really uh if you think about it, right? I mean, we're we're craftsmen here uh first, I think. Um but uh the every day, like when you wake up and every every ounce of energy that you put into something, you have to decide on whether it's worth it or not, right? And uh and you know, the I I've said it for a while um as part of the context of this podcast. Like you have your your birth date and you have your death date, and what you do with that in between is really kind of what defines you. Um and so you know, uh I mean, even though it is like a you know esoteric or you know, hippie or whatever in some ways, um, I really would like to think that the energy I'm putting forth in what I'm doing is something that is going to outlive me, or at least people can think of me and the context that I uh supplied to it in a way that I mean, you could call me a dipshit or you could call me a genius. I don't know which uh but it's not up for me uh to decide that. Um it's up for posterity, you know.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. Yeah. Same same same thing here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um so what um uh Fortune Fire um as a uh primary focus has been kind of ruling your life in that way. Um what is um do you have any plans for anything else in particular, or is it um are you riding that wave until something else uh uh crops up? Like what is what does that future hold for uh you know Jay Nielsen's uh ego and profession?
SPEAKER_00Well well, it's funny. I was gonna mention that just before, because I keep I I used to keep getting grief all the time about hey, you're a TV personality or whatever. It's like, no, I'm a knife maker. This is my side job. The TV show is my side job. Knife making is what I do for a living. So, you know, we're right now we're on hiatus with a whole bunch of other shows because AE, our parent company, bought a whole bunch of shows and streaming and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03So they're on some restructuring.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're restructure or something like that. So it's funny, I'm one of the few guys on TV that's actually happy about the hiatus because I'm actually enjoying spending time in the shop making knives like a normal knife maker again. Uh, because it was fine, you know, earlier because you know, like days off, me and Baker would go in the shop on the set and and use the shop, but during COVID, we couldn't do that. So I'd go you know, months without touching a tool or stuff like that, and that was driving me crazy. So having this little hiatus right here, it's like I'm okay with it. But um we're just working on some different projects.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh, one of the things that he was able to do um when I first met him, it was not long after a pretty life-altering event that he had to deal with. And um he between the show and other things, he had not spent a regular amount of time in the shop making. Um, and he had a backlog of years, five years of custom orders. Um, and one of the things that he would talk to me about is, you know, I really want to um dump these orders and get back out there and get into the shop and make what I want to make. Um, it took him almost a full year to do that, you know, just the process of, you know, he didn't have a whole lot of deposits to refund, but um, you know, he drafted an email explaining, you know, what was going on and everything. And um, there was what, maybe two people that gave him crap about that, but it was very minimal. Um and now, just now, probably over the last two months or so, I have seen him actually light up, be happy, and look forward to going out to the shop because he's thought of what he wants to do next. And he's done all kinds of stuff. He's played with um things, you know. Um he's testing out a new forge right now, and while he was doing that, he'd play around with some different things and stainless sandmai because I hadn't had the chance to, you know, everybody else in the show had done it. Right. So this is how uh uh the the show interfered with him. He hadn't even really tried to play around, gotten a chance to play around and make stainless sandmai for as long as he's been making knives. He didn't have that opportunity and um, you know, leeway to just play around with stuff. And he's able to do that now. And you can definitely tell um each piece that he makes is a little is there's a little something new that he's trying out, you know, and um it's pretty neat. He's happy, he really is happy. Yeah, because his backlog was so long, he was making knives that people had ordered two or three years ago, and you know, he'd already made some, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I uh becoming a job, not a passion. Yeah, I uh I for better or for worst, um I I dropped having books uh quite a few years ago. Um I'll take custom orders every once in a while if the uh project is something that's interesting enough to me. But I I kinda um I I you know, not not a TV personality or anything. I mean, pretty much nobody cares about me unless uh um I'm constantly in the public eye making stuff and everything. But I I work full time, so sometimes my shop time's limited, right? But um for me, it was actually kind of painful uh to go from um keeping books to just doing stuff as I was inspired to do it. Um one, because you know, I I think that there's a culture now where people love to be on somebody's books, even if it's only like to have a placeholder and then, you know, s at some time in the unknown, uh distant future uh get their stuff. Um they just love I don't know why they love book culture.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Well that's always fun to see. Hey, I could get this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, maybe that's what it is. And like at Belleville, he had knives on the table. That's the first time he had put knives on the table in years, years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I should feel better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was um interesting. 'Cause because everybody just wants a signature and a picture.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Most people don't even notice there's knives on the table.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, um uh how how was uh Belleville in that sense for you?
SPEAKER_00You sold everything, didn't you? Oh Bellville. Yeah, Bellville's a great show. Bellville Bellville's great. Uh yeah, we that's one of the few shows that we went to last year where we're like, we're definitely going back here. Um yeah, we do the demonstrations and they have demonstrations with a bunch of other makers.
SPEAKER_03The dummy ballistics dummy labs demos are fun. I got I actually got to stab the dummy this time. It was fun.
SPEAKER_00Yep, chopping up dummies and um doing the well, we did the Cancer Damascus demo last two years because we were gonna mix it up, but they requested it again, so we did that again. And uh, we do a lot of you know, answering questions and you know we do a lot of teaching when we're traveling around and stuff like that. We're always we're always, you know, doing some kind of you know, this say do this, this how you do that.
SPEAKER_03And and in the future, once I get done with my school and um uh I can work remote because I'm getting I'm pursuing my master's in education nursing education. So I want to work remotely with universities, just you know, grading papers and classwork and stuff. Um that way I can spend more time with the knife making. And um eventually we have entertained the idea of um maybe classes, you know, while we're in Texas, we can do classes there when we're in Pennsylvania. We can do classes up here. Um we can have more time to travel to more shows and hammer-ins and things and maybe teach, you know, have little workshops at those type of things. Um this year we're pretty, pretty sparse. I've had to tell a lot of people no because um, you know, we gotta focus on um me and getting me we gotta get through um get through my degree and you know, put the plan in place to actually be able to do the snowbird thing. So this year we're gonna be a little scarce, but you know, I can definitely see more shows in the future and just you know, him him helping people out. Um, he usually is able to answer people's questions and you know, kinda give back to the community kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00Well, I try to answer everybody's questions and I mean I do journey in Master Smith testing up here. Yep. Um gotta answer questions, a lot of questions.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but no, I'm always happy to help out. I mean, I would not have gotten where I am if it wouldn't people didn't answer my questions to help me out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it is only right for me to do the same. And you know, I don't care about the TV stuff and all that. I'm just still just a knucklehead nightmaker from northeastern Pennsylvania, and I try to answer everybody's questions and and help everybody out as much as I can. I don't I don't take I don't take the whole TV thing, TV personality thing that's there is no he doesn't.
SPEAKER_03I mean you know that you've met him and when we're out in public and stuff like that, it's the same way. He's just, you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I will say, so at uh Bellville, um my daughter had come up and gotten uh uh photo sign, right? And uh and you gave her one of the markers that you signed with too. She's like, You're like, you're like, do you want to take anything on the table? And she's like, I'll have a marker. And I was like, why? But then we got we got home and in in true fashion, she had her uh her signed copy uh of your photo on I think it was the coffee table, and one of our puppies got and ate it. And I was like, she yeah, she came up to me and she was like, Dad, look what they did. And I was like, Well, I was like, at least it wasn't your homework.
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness. Now you have to give us your address so he can send her another one.
SPEAKER_00I'll send her a new market.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you message message me, y'all's address, and I'll send we'll get her another one.
SPEAKER_00Uh we gotta we gotta dog the same thing. I I totally feel you on that one.
SPEAKER_03We'll even put it in something and tell her it's puppy proof.
SPEAKER_01We'll find we'll have a picture of our Yeah, she actually uh the last episode I published, she actually was the uh the interviewer uh to uh Paul Lusk. He's down in uh uh Spring, Texas.
SPEAKER_02Oh no.
SPEAKER_01So she yeah, so she got to do his in his his interview, and then she also did the introduction, re-recorded it. So it's been cool. Uh I really am a big proponent of of kids getting into the craft um in any any way they can. Because I mean, to be honest, you um I've heard all these stories of these old timers, you know, at guild shows and and things like that, where they would um they would either give knives away or spend a good amount of time with kids you know, invigorating their curiosities and stuff. And you know, they're the they're the generation of kids now that were spurred on by that and are promoting the knife culture with their own k with their own offspring, you know. And it's a it's a it's extremely valuable thing to invest in the youth and their ability to make and to get hands-on experience, right?
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's one of the reasons I've been like I said, I've been trying to push this whole like a kid's version of Forge and Fire. I I for some reason it it seems as mindless as mild steel handle bolts to me. It's like, why didn't you? Why hasn't anybody done it? Why hasn't everybody thought of this? It just seems like you know, simple. I know I'm no genius, obviously. So why isn't everybody else coming up with this idea? But I still think it's a I think it's still a good idea. I mean, like I said, I've I've had kids I've had kids from the UK write me letters. Um good God, I I still think I got an Instagram. There was a kid, and you're talking about creative. This kid took his Legos and did a forge and fire testing episode. I mean, well, I will admit that it was Doug doing the testing and not me, because it's really hard to find a Lego with a goatee. But at the same time, this kid did a whole stop motion video of us doing strength testing on the show with Legos. I mean, it's that this show has obviously inspired kids in one way, shape, or form.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I there there's a ton of merit to it. I mean, anything that involves kids and knives, I uh, you know, I'll always sign the petition for that um and support as much as I could. But you know, I it it probably is also, you know, I have um I have uh so I have you know our our kids almost nine uh and then uh being remarried, I have you know uh three uh stepchildren, but it's like you know 18 and 23. And and you know, honestly, uh I've been surprised at how great shows are to incorporate everybody because you know I'd start coding the shows and maybe it was my wife and I, but then we'd bring the kids around and kind of like adjacently they'd go around. I'd be like, you know, just go out and talk to knife makers and grab stickers and things like that and you know, just figure it out. And they've actually become to endear themselves uh heavily into knives. You know, they're invested in it like I am, and and they and they understand how to look at knives and inspect them and what the cutting qualities are and things like that. I mean kids need cool. Yeah, I mean, kids need that. They need to be like getting their heads out of uh playing Roblox and stupid crap on technology and actually living in the real world.
SPEAKER_03Well, and that's one of the things about the show that I was impressed right away. And once I got out into the public with Jay, is how many people come up and is like, oh, I watch your show with my whole family. So families are watching the, you know, wives are like, Yeah, it's so cool, you know, with the testing, and you know, I'm fascinated about how they do this stuff, and the kids are excited about it, and so it's become a family activity, not just something that just the kids like or just the mom likes, you know.
SPEAKER_00Dad watches his show, mom watches her show, the kids watch their shows.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they said, But when Fort of Fire comes out, we all get together in the living room and watch it together. And that was one of the few times I had ever heard of that, and I just thought that was really cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it's it's I thought that was pretty unique for that show because you don't hear that about a lot of shows, you know.
SPEAKER_00Because we're supposed to be crazy, vicious bastards with knives.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean, social media is really changing the dynamic of what you can actually say and do with knives. And I think that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_03I know, it's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_01We're s we're slowly getting to the point, I think, um, where because of the legality of and risk of knives and things like that, that social media will start to distance themselves entirely. But then we're only gonna have, you know, either you're gonna be able to go to local shows and see your knife heroes and things, or maybe if uh uh you know Fortune Fire continues and they can embrace that culture um with you know kids and stuff. Like, I mean, maybe that's the next thing. Maybe we just have to wait for social media to distance themselves, and then there's the only avenue is gonna be able to, you know, are is going to be local shows, or you're gonna be able to see it on TV somewhere where that that uh the structure is is continued.
SPEAKER_00Oh, pretty soon the marijuana be completely acceptable and legal to everybody and and totally accepted, and knives are gonna be crucified, so yeah, it's gonna be a total flip. Flip flop.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, I just got a notice. Uh it I got it that first wave that hit on my page, and I just appealed the decision and it was okay. And then the second time I've got one, it's my guppy. Um one of the little knives that I made.
SPEAKER_00Oh, an Instagram.
SPEAKER_03On Instagram, and uh they flagged it and I appealed the decision and they said nope, we're not gonna, so I had to delete it. Delete the post, yeah. That's the tiniest little knife. I know. And I it's all my videos are the same. I do the same thing when I show off my knife, and I don't understand, you know, and I and maybe it's the music choice, I don't know, but but um somebody told me I heard that uh you have to be careful your hashtags too. Um now and that's some of the things that triggers it.
SPEAKER_00But I'm like, maybe.
SPEAKER_01But kind of on uh the the show note, you know, uh I saw that you and you guys were coming to more uh Texas shows and things. And in in the context of Belleville, like I really like what um uh cowboy and his wife were doing in inside of Belleville, the Texas Select Show. Although I didn't sell a lot of knives there or anything, I really loved the energy and the people who wanted to be there. Um you're coming into the the Texas realm of things in a really great time because like the Texas Knife Makers Guild and all these uh regional shows are coming up and really kind of promoting the same kind of thing that you have been inside of Forged and Fire, and that's like, you know, um, you know, testing your stuff out and asking good questions and learning the process by actually doing so. Um it's fortunate for me to be in a state where they're actually really taking uh knife making and the and the community of knife makers uh seriously.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_00Well, like I said, for me it was it was a nice change because being up here in northeastern Pennsylvania, I mean, I had to drive an hour and a half to go see Joe Zelaski for my journey of a master's test. You know, like I said, down in Texas, you know, I mean I got one of the best uh nice supply stores, Texas Ferrier Supply, within an hour's drive. Yeah, and then and you know, heaven forbid I can't get there. They'll deliver stuff. So Texas Steel and all kinds of stuff.
SPEAKER_03So, you know, a lot a lot of good resources. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To me, it's down there is just outstanding.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've been very fortunate that Texas uh knife uh our Texas fare supply has been 15 minutes away for the last uh five five years that I've lived here.
SPEAKER_03So I mean it's uh it's easy for me to go with Yeah, and now they're not now all that new stuff that they got and that all the ad addition that they did, that's really um they got a lot of stuff. We got to go there before Belleville and actually got to shop up and down the aisles a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Now they've got the mild steel J bolts. Yeah. And and we're working on an Anvil.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that'll be cool. Um, yeah, the the uh we're working on some new stuff. Yeah, that's cool. The uh J bolts, uh so I'd gone there right after Evan got them in, and I was like, what are these? And he's he's like, Yeah, uh like Jay had told me that these uh like why don't we have those in the industry? So we went out and got them machined and everything. I was like, that's smart. Um I think I yeah, I think I pinged you about them. I was like, you know, there are some like stainless things that you can apply later on, and you're like, makes sense to do it all at the same time. And I'm like, you're absolutely right. And so I have a few of them uh waiting for me to do a project on them, but I thought that it was a you know, it it seem it seems like they should have been there for forever, but right, but they weren't.
SPEAKER_00That's why Jay didn't understand. So it took me like five years to find somebody who would make them. And I'm like, wait a second, I know I'm not the smartest guy in the world here. How am I at the how am I just coming up with this?
SPEAKER_03Well, um, Jay will call himself one of the laziest knife makers that you know, and he says that because he has, and it's funny because he sits back and laughs at me because he's done it and he's done it the hard way and he's done it the wrong way, and he's come up with a much easier solution to this problem because he's done it the hard way and done it the long way. He's like, oh, well, we'll just skip all these steps and here you go. And and he'll let me fumble, he'll let me struggle a little bit and let me go down that path just enough to say, do you want me to show you an easier way to do it? And it's like, absolutely, and it makes all the sense in the world. So that's where his wealth of knowledge is, is from doing it the hard way and doing it the long way. He's become super efficient.
SPEAKER_00Um as it took doesn't cut down the quality of the knife, if it shortens the process, I'm down.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and one of one of the compliments that he got to kind of circle back around to you mentioned Neil Kamamura. Um, I got to meet him at Blade Show last year, and um I had seen his work and Jay was, you know, he goes, This guy's phenomenal, it's really cool. And so he introduced me, um, and we just had a short exchange because you know, the blade show is crazy. And Jay and Neil even had his own little following going. He goes, This guy right here is the reason my shop is set up the way it is, it's for efficiency and you know, quickness. You know, instead of walking to this table 15 times, well, why don't you move that over here so it's right there? And that was one of um, Jay said, I'm quoting you here, sorry. Um, but he said that was one of the coolest comments that he's ever gotten is that, you know, he he picked that up from Jay being organized and um making it easier, not harder.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I I I think that that's great. I mean, uh with with Neil, uh I I mean he is a hard working, hardworking guy. Um and he he wants it like a lot of other people uh don't care for. Um he's willing to put in the hours. And you know, funny, uh Texas Fairy Supply is this kind of like uh uh uh epicenter of great knife makers coming through. Uh there was a time when when uh Neil had come in, it was before I think that he really got crazy popular. Um he was uh he was doing like a hammer it and was a uh you know a guest uh that Evan asked him to come in. Uh and uh I was in the hospital with Evelyn at the time and uh and so I couldn't come to it. But I've you know I've thought about that. It's like maybe that was my window to be able to have him on the podcast is to like actually get get to know him when he when when before the Jason Momoa era and all that stuff. I probably missed my window. But you know, uh I think that it's interesting uh that you know how how uh dynamic the uh the population around knives can be around uh you know rallying around people like when you when you see the work that they're doing. I I personally appreciate Neil being uh vulnerable about uh you know mental health and things and his journey through that because that's something that we don't really see a lot of is you know, you you want to have a facade around um uh around you know you personally versus what you do professionally. And he was like very genuine about some of the struggles that's he's he's had and how and how how how bladesmithing helped to save him from that. So you know, I I appreciate those things. Like the the the the way that we all are kind of connected, the fact that you know he took uh you know examples from from you uh as well, uh that to me that's like uh serendipity, uh right. It's like how how are things related to each other and how do great ideas um start and are proliferated. Yeah, that's cool to me.
SPEAKER_03How things evolved, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00And something you mentioned too that I will give Neil amazing credit for. Um because we talked about this on the show, because Neil had only been making knives for like six months when he was on the show and actually won the competition. It wasn't the fact that he had been making knives for six months, it's how many he had made in six months, like you were saying. He's extremely hardworking, and he will go out there and it doesn't matter, you know, if he's been doing, you know, worked a six-hour day or a twelve-hour day. This guy is beating steel on making knives constantly, he never stops working. So in that point, the qualit quantity in the amount of time has improved his quantity, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Quality, yeah, it has improved his quality. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and when he's they made a hundred and six months, you know, you're gonna shorten that curve.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I find that fascinating. And I mean, the the the kind of uh talent that you've come into contact with and you know helped nurture in one way, shape, or form, uh, that butterfly effect is um pretty incredible. Like, I mean, I'm sure that you have stories about individuals that you've seen that have uh come up. And uh I always I I'm always interested for somebody who has their finger on the pulse of a lot of makers and have you know constantly fielded education and whatnot, there just has to be a a lot of visibility that you have that maybe even some of us and uh who are siloed off into certain type of making just don't even get to see.
SPEAKER_00It's some pretty interesting stuff every once in a while, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so I want to take a second to talk about uh Frank Machado. You know, one of one of the things about Frank is he's you know uh really well connected, but he's a humongous advocate, uh advocate for connecting others in the industry. And I heard that you um you had given him kind of an in with some of his uh hammers and whatnot. But can you talk a little bit more about that? I mean, you know, it's uh that's one of the reasons why I've followed for uh Frank and his work, and I just kind of want to know a little bit more about how all that happened.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, well, we met Frank and Nita at the uh Conroe show. I think it was the first time. Um, but I had been talking to Frank a little bit beforehand, and we met Frank and Nita there.
SPEAKER_03Um they had snacks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Shelly was saying they had snacks. Me and Frank started taking talking hammers and forging, and uh well, that first first show I ordered a couple hammers probably. Right from Fantastic Craftsmanship.
SPEAKER_03I bought a hammer. That was actually my first hammer that I owned, was one of his. Yep.
SPEAKER_00That little absolutely. And uh we're working on we're working on some some projects. We might have a few things coming up. Uh I I really like a Swiss pattern that I'm trying to talk Frank and a Megan. And uh, but yeah, we got some good stuff coming on and the fantastic, fantastic people, fantastic craftsmanship.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's the only, you know, um Jay being somewhat of a little bit of a TV celebrity. Everybody's asks us, oh, well, can we do anything for you? Um, is there any special requests? And we don't uh we don't charge when when we come out to shows and he makes an appearance for that show and we do that canister Damascus demonstration, we don't charge for that. Um, we will ask for travel and accommodations to get us there and, you know, feed us or whatever, um, depending on where it's at. Most of the shows in Texas, we can just drive to them. So we don't we don't recover any money for that. We do that strictly to be in the community and help as much as we can. Um, but that was one of our stipulations is we have to be next to Frank and Nita.
SPEAKER_00I was wondering where you're going with that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sorry, that was kind of a long way around. Sorry about that.
SPEAKER_00That was Belleville. It was like, okay, we have to stay at the back of the show because if somebody wants to see us, they have to walk through the whole show, at least. That's the least they can do. And we had to be Frank next to Frank and Nita.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's great. I mean, yeah, when I was talking with him, he said, you know, that was uh uh the relationship has been good because it you know it's validated his craftsmanship, but there's a lot of people that you know have been on Fortune Fire and whatnot since that have uh uh had had his hammers and things. And so I I I really like to see that. Um they're just really great people too. Like my my wife and I love them and their uh just their personalities. They're really great people, I think.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's uh well we I mean we try to make sure we promote just not the I mean, because I know I mean that's that's my thing right now with the TV show is helping promote you know other people and the craft and stuff. So not only do I like to try to promote other makers, but also the people that are giving the makers the tools and the equipment and supplies they need to produce what they're producing and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03So, you know, any time it just makes sense to promote that thing.
SPEAKER_00Anytime we can help Frank Anita or Texas Farrier Supply or Broadback, Red Label Grinders, Red Label, uh Gerald at Salamun Leather, any of those people, you know, they're they're all good people, they're all quality folks, you know. We all work together, we all try to promote the craft and and help everybody around us. So it's just a good good group of people who are just trying to help out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I think thank you for that because I I know that it helps. Um you know, you're you're making stuff now and uh uh and you'll have some way that people can purchase them. Can you talk a little bit more about like when people see uh or can see available knives and like where to go and whatnot?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I have an emailing list on my website. It's uh the website is mountainhollow.net. And we can use Google JNielsen, N-E-I-L-S-O-N. I'm pretty easy to find. Uh, I don't do the orders anymore, but I have an emailing list. So anytime I make something new, uh it goes on there um before it goes anywhere else.
SPEAKER_03He uh typically will send out um an email saying, hey, I'm going to post um a knife for sale on this day at this time. It's um first come, first serve. And um sometimes he'll have more than one piece on an email, and then sometimes it's just one. And he he has a pretty good variety here lately, um, all the way down so you know, the little um neck knives that he makes all the way up to some uh pretty impressive pieces that he's putting together. Um I have started to make my own website as well. Right now, right now I just have like Instagram and my Facebook. Um and I started my own emailing list at the shows. I would put out a um a notebook and I like if you like what you see, um, you know, join my emailing list. But I've actually um putting together a little website and I will launch that on social media and it will have an emailing list the same way. I don't make things very often, but um I would like to offer them for sale when I can.
SPEAKER_00Well you you have a real job.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, when you get that website up and everything, uh that'll be great. Um, because I again social media, I don't trust it anymore. Um and so it the email uh list is is I think the way to go and putting it up on you know personally hosted websites and whatnot. So um yeah, so when when you get that up, uh definitely s uh popularize it because it's like it's it's the only trustworthy method anymore, it seems.
SPEAKER_03Right. Right now I tend to I tend to do better at shows because they can actually, you know, see and see my workmanship and stuff. It's a little different, but I'm getting there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, you know, it's been a humongous honor to get to talk to you guys and to and to um ask questions. Uh, you know, I I appreciate you uh coming on a podcast that you probably never heard about before and talking knives in your lives and whatnot. So I mean thank you. It's uh it's it's great to talk to somebody in Jay that I've uh that I've seen in the the knife circles and everything before. And I can also attribute to uh the incredible anvil prices that I have to contend with all the time as a collector. Yeah, it's all your fault.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sorry about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is. But you know, uh and uh and Shelly, it's really great too. You know, I mean the uh the amount of headway that you've made in your craftsmanship and knives is uh is incredible uh given the time.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_01I mean, uh some somewhat through osmosis with Jay, but definitely your uh own aptitude. And so, you know, I I encourage you to to stick with it. I can't wait to see uh what the next few years for you bring in your own craftsmanship. Uh, but you know, highly encourage you to stick with it and keep going down this route because I see where your eyes at, and it's definitely something I'm I'm I'm looking forward to seeing more of.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, thank you guys uh again and uh uh you know have a good night and everything. And uh um, you know, I I don't know, it's uh been an honor.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate it now very much. I mean, you know I mean, you know, you just doing this helps spread uh more information and more interest and stuff like that, and Shelley's making a lot of noise.
SPEAKER_03Sorry. There's your blooper.
SPEAKER_00No, but no, I I appreciate what you're doing with the podcast. Again, it's it's like you know, the the websites and the forging firing stuff. If we can you know spread more information and get more interest, it's even better for all of us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. It's my it's my pleasure to do it, and I I enjoy every minute of it. So uh that's I think the point, right? Is like what when you when you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I might argue that some days, but I mostly agree with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I there there are stipulations, right? All right. Well, you guys have a good one, and again, thank you.
SPEAKER_03All right, thank you. All right, cool one.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless you.
