SPEAKER_01 0:00

My name is Aaron LeVere, and welcome to my podcast. I explore the deep reaches of space and time to talk to the people influencing or influenced by knives. In an effort to unpack the rich and complex culture and history surrounding edge tools and adjacent crafts, I jump off into the abyss to talk about all things knives with special guests all the time. Join me as we reminisce of the good old days on the Gold Blades podcast. I think that sometimes it's easy to look at successful people and think that it was a gift, miracle, or privilege that got them where they are. But for every success we see as outsiders looking in, there were thousands of mistakes, roadblocks, and discouragements that got between that person and their success. The ones who make it into the stream of our consciousness force their way in like salmon running against a great current. Princeton Wong, his wife Mimi, and his beautiful children are what I see when I follow Prince Customs. Maybe I'm a sucker for a backstory, but Princeton and his support system spur him on to take failure on the chin and innovate. And that's exactly what he does every day to create works of functional art inside of knives in the CNC industry. We sit down and talk about his journey to get where he is today on this episode. And Princeton, it's great to have you on the Good Old Boys Podcast. Yeah, it's a pleasure to finally make it on. Yeah, finally. I I think it it's it's been a while since we talked, and I asked if you could be on. It's just, you know, you're a super busy guy. So I both yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's good, it's good to finally get to talk. And uh, you know, uh I think your particular vein of uh knife making and working with CNCs and things like that has always been something that I've been intrigued with. And it it comes, I think, largely from um the negative stigma that has come from just a long line of knife makers that CNC is not a a permissible or legitimate form of knife making. And I kind of I kind of want to dig into that. You know, I had uh Lucas Cow on uh from Squid Industries and talked a little bit about that, right? Yeah. And um and uh that's that's uh kind of one area where I think that he helped to shed some light on that. But then also, I mean you've encountered, I mean, you've worked with a lot of uh the knife making industry and movers and shakers within uh within that. And I I kind of want you know your mature take on that since you've been working s like so long and so much in that kind of field. So um I I think let's let's pause and talk a little about a little bit about you, um, where you came from, kind of what got you in the knives and everything, like your origin story as it were. And then uh we can progress into the other meaty um uh conversations and stuff like that uh after that, if that sounds cool.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Sure. Yeah, no worries. Yeah, go for it. Do you want to start off like with specific questions or do you want me just kind of go and um that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Um I I think that there's I'm I'm interested to know um what got you into knives. Um I'm all I'm also interested in what um where where the CNC and machining um lines uh transac are like uh uh transected or whatever. I'm not using the right word, but you know, like a and and and kind of like what what got you to kind of the place where you are now. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

Yeah, so I guess kind of started at the beginning with like when I was a kid. I was always a kid, that was taking everything apart, um, you know, dissecting all my transformers and video games, just trying to figure out how things work. And uh yeah, from there, I mean, just growing up, I actually went to art school up until high school. And um from that point I was like, oh yeah, I want to be an engineer, so let's just go to high school and study like math and all that kind of stuff instead of going to like a magnet school specifically for like art and um followed that route for a bit, went to college, yeah, studied mechanical engineering for three and a half years and then actually ended up back in design. So I graduated with uh graphics communication degree and I was doing uh design work. But um Yeah, as I was growing up, like this whole time being, you know, an Asian kid, I did a bunch of martial arts and was always exposed to you know that kind of weaponry and the blades and kung fu and you know, all the Japanese martial arts. So there's always that fascination that came from that side of my upbringing with steel, you know, the Japanese forging techniques and just the practical uses of, you know, swords and things like that. So that's probably where my passion really came from for blades in general. And in middle school I actually started playing with uh Bali songs quite a bit. I think when I was younger I had found an OTF at some store, but being a really little kid, my finger wasn't quite strong enough to, you know, fire it and pull it back in, so yeah, I didn't get that, but I ended up getting Bolly songs later in life and played with those for quite a while. And yeah, from there, I guess what got me into fabrication was really the automotive tuning side of things. So in high school and college, I was really into cars. Being in Texas, you know, you have to you have to have a car to get anywhere. So yeah, I just really loved that. And one time I just walked into a shop with a friend and saw what they were doing. They were building like these turbocharged Hondas and NSXs and really just fell in love with what I saw. And that just drew me into the whole metal fabrication side of things. And yeah, just grew from there. But aside from automotive, I guess uh mechanical watches was the other interest that got me specifically into machining, or at least the interest about machining. So after high school, I used a bunch of money that I had saved up, either from like graduation money or you know, other things that I'd been doing. And I bought a little desktop CNC, uh Sherline, that had been converted to you know, computer and numerical control. And back then we're just using like Mach 3 and really crappy CAM software. But um yeah, that that got me started. I was just teaching myself on that thing. Yeah, right after graduating high school. So yeah, that's like the Yeah, that's like the early backstory, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah, so um what when it comes to like um like work, like once you got um like did you work during college or did you was there something where you had like practical experience in a larger scale with with CNC or was that something that you graduated onto after you had kind of gone through this um early self-educ in in you know computer?

SPEAKER_03 8:33

Yeah, so all the work that I had done, like internships and things like that, that was all in the graphics field. So it's mainly graphic design, like print work or you know, web. And the CNC stuff was really just my own thing that I was just teaching myself all through college and then a bit afterwards, after I had graduated and you know, started working in graphics. Yeah, just been a thing on the side that I just tinker with and you know, break a lot of end mills and figure things out.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Uh so what at what point in time did that become a serious thing for you? Um had you um what what had you been doing work-wise, just graphics design and things like that, yeah, and then at some point in time took the um the jump to manufacture more? Or are you like are I I I'm actually not sure on this um the answer to this question, but are you a full-time uh manufacturer now, or kind of where does that sit in your wheelhouse?

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Uh so yeah, I'm full-time at the fabrication shop now. And yeah, I don't really take on much external design work anymore. Unfortunately, or fortunately, however you want to view it, but yeah, definitely don't do graphics work or environmental design stuff anymore at this point. But yeah, I mean the whole CNC like manufacturing stuff didn't start until after our Yeah, quite a while after I had graduated because I'd moved up to New York uh chasing Mimi. She was doing her graduate studies there in neuroscience at NYU. And of course, like being a you know entry-level graphic designer up in New York doesn't afford you much space. So I had like my little desktop mill at the end of our bed in our New York apartment. And uh yeah, I mean there's no manufacturing going on there. But after that, we moved to Japan and I kinda tossed the idea around of, hey, do I do something here? But I don't really speak the language. And you know, there's all that bureaucratic paperwork that you have to get around there. So even though like some people in the community had said, oh, we can find you a shop if you want to open something here, yeah, I kinda held off and didn't really jump in until after we moved back to Houston, like coming back from Japan. So it's a relatively recent thing that was 2015, 2016-ish.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah. Um what um, you know, it's it's interesting, like I guess probably my my exposure to uh Japanese culture came from early days in in karate. I was uh I studied Shitoryu. And um and so there was there was always kind of like an uh I mean this was like you know early on, I was thinking like six or seven when I was doing that stuff. Um but then the larger I think appreciation for the uh modern culture, not you know, martial arts and samurai and things like that, but uh and and you know the um the f philosophical side of culture, but more of the uh modern culture came from anime and and other things like that. And I was actually I was really close uh to actually moving over there somewhere, um, but uh that didn't really f um pan out on this um working and and family stuff and things like that. But I've always been interested in like it was there a lot a lot of culture shock in moving over there and where where approximately were you guys at in Japan?

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Yeah, so we were in a small area like pretty close to Kamakura, you know, where the black sand beaches are, stuff like that. It's a little southwest of Yokohama. So it's like a suburb area. But Mimi was working with uh Takeda, one of the big pharma companies out there. And um Yeah, so we're living right by where she worked. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

So so they m they moved you out there uh in order to uh for her to work. They did, yep. That's pretty cool. Um I thought I always thought it was cool that you know it's a little bit easier to get in there on work visas if you uh if you want to teach English or something, but then I was like, man, I barely understand the language. Yeah, for sure. Like 1819. At 1819, I was like, this is not nobody wants to learn from me. So but yeah, that's pretty cool. So you moved back to Houston, and then um what when what year did you guys move back here?

SPEAKER_03 13:36

That was uh around 2014 or so.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

And then and then after that you started getting into the um CNC side uh or manufacturing side rather.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Um well, I was doing like contract, like environmental design work and graphics work. When we moved back, and then I have a bunch of friends that are entrepreneurs, and just one day we uh decided to hop in a van together and just look around in the downtown area of Houston and see what warehouses are for sale. So we're just driving around looking at shops that were available, and yeah, I mean I saw one that was like, oh, that'd be kind of a cool place to to have if I could ever figure it out. And um Yeah, I mean, finally decided that it was the time to, you know, actually jump into one of my dreams, like having my own fabrication shop after Mimi had found something back home, you know. She was a bit worried that she would have to move to like the West Coast or the East Coast for to one of the biotech hubs. So I mean there was a period where we weren't sure if we were gonna stay in in Houston or not. But yep. So yeah, that's why it was uh a couple of years after we moved back.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah, to figure out the shots. Yeah. Um so what is that what has that looked like from an investment perspective? Is that something that you've been able to source largely within your family, or is it something that you've had to like, you know, get loans for or whatnot? Because, you know, my I mean from the outside looking in, um, you know, real estate to house a uh you know, CNC machines and all of the you know all the other fabrication things that you need seems like a pretty expensive endeavor.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Yeah, so um fortunately I had uh really good credit already and uh the uh owner of the space actually was kind of forced out because they were building uh public transit right in front of it, and they had like kind of blocked him out as they were building that train system um for two years. So he had moved a few blocks down the street and he was ready to get out of the space. So when we had started talking to him, found out he was cool to do owner financing. So I mean that that definitely helped out a bunch. And um Yeah, I didn't ha even with good credit, I mean, it's not always easy to get a a loan for a nice piece of land in like a a downtown area, so yeah, that helped. And then my parents pitched in a bit for the the down payment and then just kinda took it from there. The first piece of equipment I got was a Haas, and their financing is super easy to work with. I mean, as long as you have even reasonable credit, they'll they'll get a machine on your floor.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

So good to know. The next thing I'm gonna do is get a house uh like a house shop big enough that I can put a Haas in it and then I'll do that.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

Yeah, no, yeah, they're super cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah, I don't I'll be honest though, like I I um one of the dilemmas that um I have with uh CNC in general and everything is and what I don't think a lot of people understand is like you gotta be smart to run those things. Like there's so many elements of of like technological prowess just to be able to get those things up and running and running your you know your your uh code stacks or whatever, let alone the maintenance involved with it and understanding how to take that tool after you understand the fundamentals of the technology and then be able to manufacture something with that. And then you got to go through all the research and development and break in tools and things in order to get even further down the road. So um um what was the learning curve like with that? Do you feel like um your early uh tabletop CNC work and everything helped in jumping up to the Haas and manufacturing other things?

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yeah, that definitely helped because I had a bunch of years where it didn't really matter if I was making money or not with that little machine that I could just play around and kind of learn some of the basics and stuff like that. And uh I mean I it's still a big leap jumping into a Haas from, you know, like a $2,000 machine. But yeah, I mean, it gave me much more confidence to to make that leap for sure. And then, I mean, it's also much more accessible these days because of the software and you know, even the the tooling. I mean, there's charts from the manufacturers that kind of give you a head start compared to what we had or what you know machinists had back in the day, or even what I had when I got the Shoreline. Like there wasn't there weren't YouTube videos or anything back then. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yeah. Um and so when you started manufacturing th uh you know things with your equipment, was the first was the first thing nice, or were you were you doing other work first? Or kind of what is the balance of of a startup company doing machining look like for each other Yeah, so I didn't jump full in like 100% shop time.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

I'd be there, but I was also still doing the contract uh design work whenever stuff came in. So that was kind of helping to pay the bills at the shop and the mortgage and stuff like that. And then um Yeah, just pretty much taking whatever I could, you know. Um There wasn't really much of a balance because yeah, I couldn't really dictate what I was taking on at that point, like right when I started. But the the first things I d did were actually I started off with laser engraving. I had bought like a a fancy fiber laser before I had moved into the shop. So I had that in our garage, you know, after we moved back from Japan for a bit. And then when I took the leap and moved into the shop, the first things that I was doing there were automotive and also like architectural pieces, like uh decorative wall tiles and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

So what kind of things in the automotive space had you been machining?

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Um, so just like little brackets and you know, miscellaneous stuff. Nothing like super complex, but yeah. One of the early jobs I took on was rebuilding this uh sequential shifter for a land speed car, you know, that goes to the Bonneville Salt Flats. That was that was pretty fun. Yeah, that's kinda so so did you did you take the original part and then um Yeah, they had like a mangled original and then uh kind of reverse engineered some of the parts that they needed and remade the brackets and some bushings and stuff like that for them.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So and and then what does that look like? Um when you is there any like um feedback looping or anything like that that you get on projects that you work on? Like, you know, you manufacture the stuff and then they test it out in their machine and and you know, you get feedback on its performance or anything, or is it just um purely contractual and you just you know kind of wash your hands of it after it's done?

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Uh so a lot of the stuff that I do is just from personal connections, like all the automotive stuff is basically from the shops that I knew back in the day when I got into that around college. Um so I mean I'm still doing some like Toyota Super stuff uh on the side here. There now for one of the shops that I I worked with back in the day, like helping him build like induction systems and and welding like intercooler piping and stuff like that. So I mean I definitely hear back from those guys. Um if they need to like tweak something or yeah, I'm I I get feedback for sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Are there as are there any things that you've uh manufactured where there's been like catastrophic failures or things like that? Or would you say that your um your your acumen for uh reverse engineering and building things has been uh pretty pretty high? Like what I mean what's the what's the failure rate of taking something that you're conceptualizing and then manufacturing that and then putting it into things and then um you know it it working the first time? Um so far I've had a really high success rate.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

I haven't actually had much stuff come back at all. So yeah, I've been lucky.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Well, the reason why I ask is is kind of leading into what the process looks like for you in your everyday knife making and and how you come up with some of these um these ideas, you know, like for the last few years you've made those uh the the shuriken, right, for Blade Show and things like that. Like kind of kind of like what what I guess causes you to do those type of things and um and and what I guess well first what what causes you to think of those things and then what's the ideation process through to actually getting it on the machine and cutting it out and prototyping it?

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Sure. So something like the the Ninja Stars, the Shurikins. Um that was actually a request from uh Henry Wu. He asked me if I could make some Ninja Stars in the you know, in the how do I say it? To kind of reflect on the idea of uh like Sheriff's badge, like a Western style bad badge for Blade Texas. That's how that all started. Was a it was a direct request. And uh yeah, who doesn't want to be a professional shuriken maker, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, if there if there was a a niche business for that, I think that would be pretty pretty cool. Yeah. Um so then you just you just go through the normal design process and then prototype it out. I mean what like w I'm I'm interested, I guess, in what when you take an idea like that and you go into the manufacturing process, is everything pretty much up to specification, or is are there things where you have to like tinker around with it and go from you know your your CAD design and everything to um to the machine and back and forth in order to uh refine ideas?

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Sure. So I mean there's definitely some back and forth when you're doing the initial design, but I mean that's mostly like in drawings or a CAD. You can see a bunch of the stuff and tweak it there. Um on something like the NinjaStars, the tolerances aren't quite as uh important as a a knife or like an automotive part. So that was pretty straightforward once I just figured out how to fixture and machine it all. But um yeah, I mean there's always a little bit of tweaking here and there. I mean depending on what end mills you're using, the you have to tweak like finishing passes and stuff like that, but nothing too major on something like a a Ninja Star.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Sure. And and how much time is actually spent building fixtures and things for the work versus actually you know going through the the milling process?

SPEAKER_03 26:00

Yeah, so I think probably a third to one half of the time is spent figuring out your fixturing and programming it. Um Yeah, I mean it's pretty significant, I would say. Because I mean that's your basis for you know all your manufacturing, like leading from that point on. So you do want to make sure you you have it right.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah, and m I mean m my thing too is is uh depending on what your processes are, your fixture your fixture um creation and everything is uh sometimes uh very one-off depending on what kind of uh uh what kind of thing you're manufacturing itself, correct?

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Yeah, exactly. So like with knives, I mean, it's mostly flat pieces, so a lot of the fixturing is all the same for that. Came out it all on a plate. I know a lot of people use vices, but I try to stay away from vices. Um Yeah, but I mean on more intricate stuff like the the lever on that wine key knife that I do. I mean that that took a lot more design and figuring out than you know just machining the flat pieces for sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, so when you're um when you're doing the the actual corkscrew itself, are you machining the entire corkscrew? Um or how how exactly does that work? Well that's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Yeah, it starts from a titanium round bar. And um, I didn't have a lathe when I was like making that originally, so I actually just did it on a three-axis mill, and it was like seven operations on uh on a mounted to a plate.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

So yeah, that makes sense. I uh um what's the failure uh rate look like on parts like that? I mean, because uh in order to get the geometry uh right on a corkscrew, it seems pretty dainty, um, especially if it shifts or things like that when it's being milled. I mean, what uh is that a little bit more?

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Yeah, so machining wise I haven't messed any up like uh when they're fixtured in to be machined. So the I mean there's not really a failure right there. Um I guess in the design process, like getting the you know, thread pitch and that kind of stuff and the thickness correct was more of a where I had failures.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah, that makes sense. Um kind of um so you know we we kind of touched on um my interest in talking more about like how like the legitimacy of CNC works within side like or within the realm of custom knife making, right? Sure. Um and I I think probably the thing I hear the most is well you can just put it on a CNC machine and make a million of them and they they come out exactly the same. I in your practical experiences is that the case.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Um if you know what you're doing, they would come out mostly the same. I mean, it depends on what kind of tolerances you're trying to hold yourself to. So realistically, no, they're not all the same, but to general knife making tolerances, then they're close enough to being the same. Yeah. Yeah, unless you're like really messing something up or not watching the condition of your end mills and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah, but I mean, um what is what is the practicality of of I guess larger manufacturing? Uh because I guess Mike from my vantage point and what I see with the things you bring to shows and the work that you do and everything, it seems to be a lot more small batch than you know just ripping through, you know, uh, you know, I don't know, 500 of something and sure putting it on the market.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Yeah, so I mean if you like walk into my shop, I definitely have the capability to be at least like a mid-scale manufacturer. Um if I if I wanted to like stand there and just load parts all the time or hire somebody. But I'm using CNC more of a tool more like a tool than like something just to knock out a bunch of stuff. Um Yeah, I mean it's just another tool in my toolbox. Like I have with grinders and all that other stuff, and yeah, I just like the precision of what I can do with the CNC and yeah, use it. I don't think it's a handicap or uh or something negative so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Well and I I mean and so all all of your blades um you're grinding by hand, and I don't mean like you know, using fixtures or things like that, but like when you when you get done with the s the CNC process to get the tolerance on everything, then you're going through and grinding the blades after the fact?

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Um predominantly not. Most of my bevels are actually machined. Like maybe 98% of them. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yeah. And and and how um i is there in the machining process for the bevels, uh how close to tolerance is it actually getting? Like is there is there finishing work or things like that that are required um after the fact to get it to the final state that we see it when it's on your table?

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Uh depends on the knife. I mean, some of them, you know, you bring to a different finish, like damaged steel and stuff like that. But I mean, if you're just doing like a user finish, blasted and stonewashed, then yeah, it comes off the machine, I blast it, stonewash it, and then put an edge on it, and that's it. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Um But yeah, I mean the the edge or w the thickness behind the edge, that's all machine to thickness, so and then all all the heat treating is done uh I assume by hand.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

I've seen like even heat kill and stuff in the background before that you've done.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Yeah, yeah, I do all the heat treating. Uh I use Argon in the bags just to kinda keep it inert and I like not having a bunch of discoloration on my blades. Saves a bit of finishing time.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah. I've I've thought about uh using Argon, but then keeping gas in a residential area too seems like a pain in the butt.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

So I mean I know it's inert, but I mean just like all the stuff that you have to do in order to uh keep up with uh running Argon seems well, I mean I'm I think the only thing about residential is the uh the delivery trucks can't come into a residential neighborhood. So you would have to take your cylinder and get it refilled at the facility.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah, that's my understanding too. I mean lugging lugging around a big cylinder and stuff is a little bit of a pain. It's good luck out. Yeah. If you saw me, you'd see you'd probably say, hey, this guy needs to work out a little bit more. Um but yeah, no, I get that. Well, it's also, you know, in I I didn't get argon on my paragon because I wasn't exactly sure um if the like brick brick oven uh um design in the in the up like in in the oven itself was what I wanted to stay with as a final form.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

I've looked I've looked at some some even heat paragon and hotshot ovens to see if uh like potentially what I have right now is either too big or you know it's uh it definitely takes a while to heat up.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Um but I I know that they have the like the Pro Series and everything that you can get with Paragon that makes it a little bit easier. But um uh but yeah, Argon um making making the little coupons, uh uh you know, the little envelopes for uh all my blade work and everything is is probably the w one of the biggest pains in the butt that I've uh experienced in heat treating. It would be nice just to be able to throw it in and pull it out and quench it.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Yeah, that'd be awesome. But I mean filling the the bags with argon, it doesn't take too long. So yeah, that haven't viewed that as too much of a pain so far.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yeah. So um uh just describe that to me because um my my understanding with some of these uh some of these argon uh ready uh heat treating ovens is that you actually have a uh a valve on it where once once it you know once it's heating up you actually evacuate the air out of it and just pump a small amount of argon into it. What what what bag mechanism are you using?

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Yeah, so I'm all I'm stainless on my blades. So I'm just using the heat treat foil and using uh those valpack uh envelopes to uh seal all my blades. So before I do that final fold, I'm like basically filling it with argon and then I do the last fold, so it's the argon replaces the air in the bag, and yeah, you have an inert environment without having to worry about like purging out your whole kiln.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

I see, I see. Yeah, yeah that that's the uh so I mean that's interesting because you still so you're still using um the um stainless envelopes, but just putting putting uh Argon within it.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

Yeah, I mean you can use nitrogen too. I think it's cheaper, but I have argon around for my my welder and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

So it's pretty cool. I never actually I don't think I've ever actually thought about doing that. I just thought about getting the uh the heat treating ovens that were argon ready. But I also don't you know I don't know how much they actually consume in a in a given heat treating um uh session. Yeah, it kind of depends on how well the the kiln is sealed, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

But yeah, it shouldn't use all that much, but it's definitely much less if you're just still in a little bag, like for a few seconds versus you know, like an hour heat treat.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

And and when you're closing it up, um when you're closing up finally with your um last folds, um how how easy is it for the argon to stay in that uh in that envelope versus uh like I mean d do you have like a period of time that you can wait or does it have to be like immediate in order to capture it all?

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Um so I mean I guess argon's heavier than the oxygen. I keep the bag upright. I do the first fold like while it's upright, so it's not like spilling out, and then I immediately lay it down and seal it with a roller and then do the second like sealing fold, you know, because people do like two or three folds. But yeah, I mean the argon stays in there as long as you're not like tilting the bag over or something like that. Smart.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

I'll have to think about that. And I never I I don't think I ever really thought uh about it too much. I mean, I'm not the smartest uh person in the world, uh, but that's that definitely seems like a good like a good medium because I'm like I get discoloration, it depends on the steel, I think, um sometimes. But uh I've had some pretty uh pretty good rainbowing and stuff going on, uh even though it's just like surface. I mean, I I rock wall hardness test all like everything to make sure it's to sp to spec.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

But yeah, I mean the main reason I do it is that sometimes I don't like having to deal with the the finishing work that comes with uh discoloration. So yeah. It just saves me time that way.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah. Do you think that you've always been uh that pragmatic when it comes to like thinking through processes and everything? Because I mean my my impression at least is that you you put a lot of thought into into like what you want to do and then build the systems by which you actually are doing everything.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

I try to as much as time allows. I mean, definitely when I'm like building something out, I spend a lot of time in the front end trying to think it through just to make sure it works as close to possible the first time, or that I have enough wiggle room in like a say a fixture setup that I can tweak it without having to rebuild entirely. So yeah, I do spend a lot of time like thinking on the front end.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Yeah, I mean that makes sense. Um what do you think the cost benefit is of running uh CNC in your shop versus uh doing things by hand? Because I mean, you know, like for me, um I've I've always it's probably because of working in like farming and kind of fabricating tools and things that you need that are crude tools and and also jewelry. Like pretty much jewelry, there is no real manufacturing process unless you're doing something in the casting um side of things, or you're or you're really pulling in manufacturing processes into it. In uh when what I was doing when I was uh in jewelry is is all custom work. Gotcha. And so doing full custom, I mean, really, there is no molds, there is no things. You either carve wax and do investments, or um you start with raw materials like rods and um material itself. Yeah, yeah. And so it's it is really like it's full custom pretty much start to finish. You don't really have options otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

But um I mean, even when I like dabbled in jewelry before, like I guess I started off with what most would consider like the manufacturing side. You 3D print the wax instead of carving it, you know, you do the design on a computer. And even though I was just doing like a handful of them, yeah, I mean, I just went that route instead.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Oh yeah. Um yeah, I have a for certain custom jobs when I was working in this uh jewelry shop, we would um get estimates to get uh wax you know machined out or whatever. Um and it it it's interesting because the the mentality around like cost of getting that like perfect thing. Um it's like it's like so the difference would be maybe maybe a wax would cost like five hundred bucks. Um and you'd you'd have to add that on to the price of whatever piece it was. And sometimes, you know, we're working in in in custom jewelry with some of the the uh diamond sets and um and other materials that we're using. Yeah. Um, you know, I mean, fifteen thousand dollars was not uh unreasonable, um, all the way up into you know fifty, sixty, seventy thousand bucks. It just really kind of depends. But you know, like I mean, high high end and five hundred bucks for design fees and whatnot, a lot of people would scoff at that. They're just like do it the old-fashioned way and charge me the time. And I'm like, I don't I don't really know that there's that much of a benefit to do it the old-fashioned way. It costs a lot of time and energy that you're going to be paying for. Because you know, in custom jewelry, it's like whatever your cost is, it's about 300% um in in overall labor and margin. It's just whatever it costs times three, and that's basically what you're gonna charge the end user.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Yeah, I mean, I think maybe those customers, just like with custom knives, they're looking at it like, oh, I I like that personal involvement more than you know what they view as a machine or something like that. So they just tell you to do it the traditional way because they like it.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Yeah. I mean, maybe, but the problem is is that like one of us would have to carve the wax and we'd still still do it the same way. Which we just uh I wouldn't get paid $500 to do a wax carving. It would be, you know, uh whatever, whatever uh that takes. And and I was not a really great wax carver, um, like by by any means uh rudimentary at best. But you know, there's certain things like if um if we had existing molds and there was something that we wanted to put out for like um like showroom tchotchkis, I would say, you know, you want to do something in silver or some you know lower alloy golds, um it would be like you know, taking the waxes and then modifying them with rotary tools and things to do something different. And then we would invest those and then see kind of how they did on the floor, and then if they did well, you know, you try to promote those or maybe do them in gold with stone settings or things like that. But it was always like a trial and error.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Um but if it came to like real complex stuff with you know multiple uh settings, you know, you want to get as close to the final form in your investments as well. Yeah. So it's interesting to me because uh you know, yeah, I don't I don't know that the I mean human involvement is prone to error. And exactly. Uh yeah. And I don't if if I had the mind to actually um learn how to manufacture things through uh 3D printing or using more um uh you know more CNC driven technology, I think I probably would. Um it's just I've I've been in this mentality of like, well, heck, I could just, you know, I can figure it out. I'll just like do some prototyping in McCartar or G10 or Wood or something and then move on to the next step. So to me, to me, in prototyping things, there always seems to be way more steps to get from ideation to um something that You can put in steel, unless you're just going and grinding things. But the thing that I hate the most is like, you know, you come up with some idea and it works real well. Maybe there's great, you know, um public um reception. And then how do you repeat from that point? Yeah, you n yeah, you never plan it. So now I got to go back through and reverse engineer and do it right the second time. Um when I've already spent like nine times trying to get it to the place where it was at. So it's it's I I don't know that the the over-under, like the what what I mean, what is the cost benefit of of going old school versus being able to use tooling. Um I don't I don't really know.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

But yeah, I guess it just depends on what kind of shop you are or what your goals are. Because I mean, doing it the old school way, depending on what you're making, I would I'd have to throw that caveat out there is that it it definitely seems like it could be faster to do it the old school way, like grinding it out and you know, making one real quick. But yeah, I mean I I like to push my machinery, so I mean, some of these things that I'm prototyping, I'd probably be crazy to try to like hand file, you know. So I'm definitely doing that stuff on a machine.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Yeah, do you ever do you ever find yourself uh doing one-offs um for knives and things, or is it mostly like repeatable things that you can kind of modulize and you know pick apart and do different stuff with?

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Um I mean, a lot of the stuff that I do it starts off, you know, like with the idea of like it's the one-off. But then like you said, I mean I'm already set up to make more of it if people happen to like it. So I mean that's why I'm I just I pretty much jump all over the place with my design because it it keeps my mind going. But um yeah, that's the other reason I don't do like huge batches is that you know I just I love that that whole process of design and then bringing it to a a physical object. It's just my process and includes the the fixture design and all that kind of stuff in between as well.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

So yeah, I'm not I'm not sure if there's a a real way to weigh the cost benefit because I mean if you're not planning to build a bunch of stuff, it's definitely cheaper to build a few with a you know, a grinder, because you can do a lot of stuff with a two by 72. You don't have to invest in a expensive machine and you know the power and all that kind of stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Um what is uh what what kind of power consumption um um do you go through in a a standard like Haas like you have?

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Uh Haas is quite low, so I mean that I wouldn't really be worried about power-wise. The one I started off with was one of the tool room mills, and he got it specifically because I could run it on a single phase panel. And uh yeah, I mean, it wasn't pulling any huge power. So not until like the more recent stuff that I've gotten that it r like really requires some power.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Yeah, so in a I mean, do you monitor at all like in a standard standard operation how many kilowatts it pulls or anything like that, or do you do like a economy of uh of of power draws on your machinery?

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Um, not too much. I mean I just kind of watch my monthly bill because I'm curious, like, oh, how much did it cost this month? But even when I moved to like a water jet, which requires 70 amps at 480 volt. Um Yeah, I mean, my power bill's not realistically that much more every month. I mean, it doubled, but that's also because I have other machines running and that and AC. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yeah, that makes sense. Um kind of going back to like the um like the knife design component, like what where do you draw your inspiration from? Because uh like I I can kind of see some elements of uh like traditionalism inside of your knives, and I can see definitely some new age like um you know some art deco um um like influences and things. Like what is your style of knives and have you ever really um like I mean w have you ever got into that or or is there a a purpose um I guess a statement or whatever with the way that you you design your specific knives?

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Yeah, I wouldn't say that I have a specific design style because I like to I find it a challenge to kind of delve into other styles like here and there as I can. But I mean my general influence would just be like pop culture or you know, things that I grew up with in the past. Like of course I look at architecture and automotive design and yeah, just draw whatever I can from whatever I see in my environment. So yeah, I mean each design I mean, most of my stuff's changed quite a bit from knife to knife just because it's whatever I I'm feeling at the moment. So it's kind of hard to nail down like, oh, this is my style, or at least in my eyes. I don't know if some people see like a a parallel between the the various designs that I've done.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yeah, well, I I mean it's it's it's kind of weird because um I I s I I say that the concept is weird because it seems like uh knife makers or craftsmen that focus purely on what's inside of their mind when they're expressing things, that their personal aesthetics are. Well, and it it emerges quicker than if you're somebody like like I've gone through the uh tribulations of designing things that are other people's designs. You know, like they're there there's something that somebody else has largely thought of. There's mostly traditional aesthetic, and and I mean traditional just in the fact that somebody else's is mostly um uh trampled that path. It's not it's not inventive. Like I I would look at some of your uh knife aesthetic, and the closest um the closest I can think of is uh Michael Walker um and and some some of the things that he's done. Like I that like that's kind of it's very sci-fi, it's very like a little bit of like this Art Deco thing. And it it just interests me, like what where where do people kind of get that? Like where like because you could go you could go with rudimentary knives, I guess. I mean I say I say rudimentary is like not complex like you're doing, and you know, do just as well, but you always seem to come up with these really crazy combinations of materials and uh specific geometries on like your your pivot areas and blade uh blade designs and whatnot. And to me, it's just uh it seems like an awful lot of work um in the ideation process. And I don't I don't know sometimes if I'm that that kind of maker. Uh-huh. Like uh to me, it seems uh uh like uh just a different wavelength of thinking about lines and thinking about um, you know, uh textures and other things that you know it would go into making all that thing, all that all that stuff work. And you do it really well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 52:13

I guess uh especially when I started out, I kinda tried not to really like look into the field. That's kind of the way I am in in general. But I just do my own thing and see if people like it or not, and yeah, just go with that. Especially in the beginning. But I mean, of course now, I mean, I've been exposed to so many designers and stuff like that. I like I said, I mean I draw inspiration from my environment and what I see, and yeah, some of that probably made it into some of my more recent designs. So um yeah, I mean, I always just try to do what I feel like makes me happy for better or worse, design-wise.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

I g I get that. Um, so I mean, with what you're doing, you know, every knife maker um has a different, I guess, concept of what uh success looks like to them. Um, but from what I like well everything I understand about you is you've kind of been a you know march to the beat of your own drum. So like it like what pushes you? What what are you actually trying to like look for, not just in like design gratification, like turning something that you've thought of into something that you've made, but what what exactly is your your driving force in doing this and coming up with these new things?

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Um so outside of like just the aesthetic design, like it's that always it's that chase for like the mechanical function and understanding of that. Um I mean there's so many different opinions on, you know, the best way to do this or that, but unless you do it yourself, you don't really you don't really know. So I mean with each design I'm always trying new things like different lock geometries, you know, lock inserts and all that kind of stuff. And attempting different ways to do things as much as possible. So I think it's that chase of becoming better and furthering my understanding of a field that I love that that really pushes me.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

That's cool. And I mean uh what uh what do awards mean to you? Because I know you've been you've been kind of on the the radar and been awarded for um quite a few things. I know that you had um what year was it that you had best best new maker at Blade Show? 2021, I guess it was. I think so, yeah. And um was that was that the same year you got into uh probationary into the guild?

SPEAKER_03 55:06

It was and also got uh I think most innovative design at Blade Texas that year.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Um how how what was your guild experience like being in CNC and then going through the probationary process?

SPEAKER_03 55:24

So I mean it was I mean, it was all accepting. I got one comment during one of the inspections, but it wasn't necessarily aimed towards me. It was just one of the inspectors said, Oh yeah, I'm I'm 100%, I'm 100% error. It's like, oh that's cool. I mean, nice to meet you. So it wasn't really like, oh, I'm better than you, or I I just do it this way, you know, or at least that's how I viewed it.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Uh do you think uh have you had a lot of pushback in your uh specific style of making with the I'm using air quotes here, traditional knife makers?

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Not at least not that they've come up and said to me. Um from what I've seen, the the industry's been super accepting to me, which has been awesome. Um yeah, I mean I think I m might like bother some people because like some people have told me that that first design that I did, the Daruma, that had like all the swoopy lines and you know, wing geometries and stuff like that. They're like you're kinda doing like art knife, but it's CNC, you know, so it's kinda uncomfortable for some people. But other than that, I haven't really heard much. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

But I've what I've learned in my time in knives so far is that knife makers, especially traditionalists or purists, can be a little petulant. And so it's it's kind of difficult, you know, because you you're out here just doing a thing and then you have people just like try to shoot you in the back a little bit um with with your your stuff. But it's it's actually interesting to me that um with with some of the uh fervor around traditionalism uh that the that the knife making uh knifemakers guild had appealed to you at all. Um what what made you decide to uh get into the guild versus um, I don't know, n I guess not not accepting that that that kind of institution and and um um what's the word? Well I mean uh scrutiny, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

I always believed in their the outright goal of you know helping other knife makers, like sharing knowledge and that kind of stuff. Thought that was cool when I just first learned of it. And then realistically it was just talking to Jim Skelton and Todd Begg in the early days of when I was making knives and they kind of pushed me into looking into it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two uh two two knife makers that I definitely think um broached the same kind of uh design aesthetic and material choices and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Like I I mean I I don't I don't actually know how much Yeah, I mean I guess Todd Begg would be a good example of like a guy a little bit earlier on using CNC and breaking those barriers, you know. So he probably had much more pushback than than I ever will experience.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Yeah, that um it's interesting, you know, um in in the sense that we we all in some way rest on the shoulders of giants like those who have uh pioneered uh some some level of um technology or mindset difference or things like that. Sure. In order to make it just a little bit easier. But I don't really I'd I'd love to have Todd on at some point in time and be able to talk through that um and and kind of what he's experienced uh separately. Oh yeah. Uh you know, especially with you know being like achieving uh president of the guild. But like I I'm interested, so you you in 2021 you were probationary, right? Yeah and when did when did you uh when did you get voting? Was it the same was it the same year that you got voting member status that you were also voted in as as the secretary for the guild?

SPEAKER_03 59:30

Yeah, it was the same year. I guess 22, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Yeah. And how's that been so being being secretary?

SPEAKER_03 59:39

Uh I guess it's it's work. Um it's really nothing crazy uh other than explaining to people like when the fiscal year is every year. But I've made some changes that kind of have gotten around the questions like every time I send out like due statements, I've timed it differently. So yeah, that's toned down quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Yeah, well, I mean and it's one of the um what I what I will say is that for the level of involvement that I've had in the guild, you know, when I was a probationary member, I've uh volunteered to uh redo the website and things. And and it seemed like at the time I was the only one that knew anything about technology. And it's actually been it's it's been nice because through that, man, it took almost a year um to get from saying, oh hey, like maybe we need to be able to update things and not have um not have old content right all the time, but uh and then to getting a website that we can dynamically update or whatnot, yeah, to you being able to, as a secretary, take all of that over and really you're just doing a phenomenal job at being able to not only keep the books but then um help to manage the logistics side of running the guild as if it were a business, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Yeah, so I mean when I came in, you know, everything was pretty much done by hand. We I got a bunch of books that were just basically in notebooks, and uh yeah, I just wanted to you know bring it everything up to date as much as possible, started automating stuff or putting it in Excel spreadsheets, um help try to help you out with the website here and there where I could. And then uh yeah, once we got that recommendation to go to membership works from uh Jason Fry, implemented that on the site so that you know we have all the member listings, all the uh the dues are tracked on the website and stuff like that now. And uh we have much more capability to to reach out to members to set up stuff once we ever get around to it. But yeah, I mean my my whole goal is to automate the whole system and make it as streamlined as possible where there's less mistakes, less work on the director's side, and uh something easier to hand over instead of like a stack of paperwork that you have to dig through manually.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Yeah, but you you know that in in creating this this technological sophistication, you've you've pretty much guaranteed that nobody else is gonna want the job.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:30

Well, I don't know. I we don't know who what other young guild members are coming in that know all this stuff. So Times changed.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Yeah. Well that that is true. I mean we gotta um gotta look to the future, right? Yeah. Well, and I I think something that I've appreciated is that uh when I was quite a few years before I actually got into the guild, um there was a lot of uh older knife makers that were in, you know, not maybe not founding members, but uh d definitely in the early years that were like, man, like you don't you don't need the guild. Like there's it's it's uh there's a lot less bureaucracy if you just do it yourself and you know put up a website. Like the internet is a magical place. Yeah. Um but something something that I like I still agree that the internet is a great place to uh sell knives and to uh uh get a focus towards your knives and stuff like that. But I I really uh you know, as a um working in IT so much, I really fear for the reckoning that's uh uh that's probably going to come sooner than later, where online like the online proliferation of quote unquote weapons is going to be very highly curtailed. And and it's we've seen it in um all of these uh I mean uh it's not political, but it it's kind of like you know, you're kind of uh grouped in in political ideologies. So like if you make if you make knives, then you like guns. If you like guns, then you're you know, some political affiliation. If you do that, then you can't do these things. And the problem is is that it's not looked at as just a craft. It's looked like looks looked at as a craft that has at s at least some tangential touch, the thing that more people care about. And because of that, we we suffer um with the reality that we're done with all these other negative views. Yeah. Well, and and not just not just that too, but um they're really it's different, I think, when you're talking about constitutional um rights or things where you know you you have you have the right to do certain things, but selling selling stuff that people deem as part of their acceptable use policies as weapons or against them or whatever, uh it's not a constitutional uh slight. It's like the they don't they don't have to do that. And so at any point, we have the right to use whatever company and it's it's in their rules, so I mean what can we really say? Well, yeah. And and that's but that's that is kind of the thing though, is like I guess what I uh the point to be made is that I don't know if we're really out of the woods when it comes to considering what mm um organization um means to a craft, like a guild or a group or uh some some type of um conglomeration of people that kind of do the same thing. Um it's just like, you know, I mean, the we the way that we got started was piggybacking off of gun shows um in the guild, and then we moved to like this thing where we're our own. unit and then we kind of get dispersed because of you know pull like bureaucratic drama and the internet. And now now it's very easy for me to see that if things go or progress in a certain way, that we could end up back into really relying on a guild membership thing. Yeah. To make our sales. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

I mean because mainly because knife makers may not have the I guess the financial backing or even, you know, the knowledge to get into the the side of things where, you know, guns and the firearms in industry they've kind of skirted around all the problems, you know, in their own way. But I mean Yeah, I doubt like individual knife makers are going to be able to set up systems to to really get around that if they really start cracking down.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

Yeah. Well because I mean the reality is is that guns um guns and I mean you know firearms in general have always had a um manufacturing um component to them that makes a it makes it actually like a you know a real big boy business. Yeah exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:17

So I mean they they have the financial backing to actually do make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

Yeah. And there's not that many of them. I mean if you look at if you look at how many fly by night um weapons manufacturers there have been uh they kind of m like maybe their night uh their guns are a little bit cheaper. Um they can manufacture them uh a little bit more agile because they're you know they are mom and pop. They don't have the manufacturing bureaucracy and lots and stuff like that that they have to produce. But then just as quickly they just don't manufacture anything anymore. Like I I used to you know uh uh dabble in in custom builds and things and and I can't tell you how many um parts I have in various uh um yeah where the manufacturer doesn't exist anymore. Yeah it's like well I would it'd be nice to get this guard or this trigger or something like that. But sorry I mean I can't anymore. I mean even entire um like AK builds or things uh there was you know there was a company in Houston I think it was that was uh manufacturing reasonably priced uh AKs because you couldn't um you know I mean it's just untenable to have Kalashnikovs anymore. Um and I mean you I I remember a guy I used to um be associated with said that he could just get them shipped directly over from uh Europe in in crates in their original Cosmaline and they were like dirt cheap. Like but um but you know this uh this manufacturer of this one AK that I had um they went they went under I mean I didn't realize it but they went under like seven years before I actually bought the thing and I was like cool like it'd be it'd be cool to buy like more of these things. It's like no you can't do it. You know so it's it's I guess it's one of those things where we we have to actually be good stewards of making like back doors and making relationships and doing networking that is not tethered to a single sales mechanism a la social media I think. And that's that's the reason why like I'm I've kind of dab like um gone back and forth of whether um I really like like big box shows or not. You know, main mainly Blade Show is it, right? But there's a there's a lot of other um smaller knife venues that have come up for shows. Yeah. And it seems like if if things um go that way and the support is good enough then we could probably sustain um a you know social media blitz where we're just not allowed to to market anymore on there. But I just don't think it's there yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:50

Yeah Yeah I'm surprised nobody's really done like an online marketplace or or even set up like a a payment processor you know for knife makers because we basically have to go to like firearms manufacturers solutions to get around that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

But yeah yeah I mean I d I definitely do think that there is a uh there's a place for it and a a vacuum that nobody's managed to um fill. But you know, man, I mean I'm I'm in software development and um ideation and stuff like that. Yeah solutions uh architecting and like something like that I could easily see an application that can like sustain that kind of market um and to give the interaction that you would get in social media could cost several million dollars. And it's like w what is what is selling like a membership for I mean I I'd have to make a membership like a hundred dollars a month just to be able to cover the the cost of that and my my return on investment would be many years. So I g I can understand why it hasn't happened yet somewhat but it really needs to. Yeah for sure yeah it'd be it'd be great to see something at least start you know that yeah so uh but I mean in in the scope of diversification so like you know you you do some automotive um um work in your shop and uh I've also noticed like at what point in time did you get involved with uh Jerry Mowen and the manufacturing processes around his fixtures uh got involved with Jerry Moen around the year that I entered the guild.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

I was uh introduced to him by Tyler Turner and um yeah we just got along really well and eventually like started helping him with you know kind of the tech side of his business like running the website and things like that. And it wasn't until recently that we tried to start moving manufacturing in-house. So that was that was just over the last year that I really started uh machining like the thick the platins and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

Yeah how I mean how how was that to go from a I'm I assume that he was uh working with another um another I I don't know what size manufacturer. Yeah. But was it all small batch or was it like a larger um larger setup? I mean I I don't really know a lot about uh com like commercial manufacturing like that or what the impetus was for moving to uh your manufacturing process but um how how has that been in the transition to working directly with them and manufacturing those for him?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:47

Um I mean it it if you ask any company it's always a a bit of a challenge to bring manufacturing in-house. So um yeah it's definitely much more financially than you know anyone ever plans for but aside from that it's just time and you know getting stuff set up. So yeah I mean he's been pretty understanding of the time frame that it's taken. But I mean we had our reasons we wanted to be a little bit more agile and implementing changes that we had wanted um or that we had asked for in the past and you know just having a little bit more control over things is was the main goal.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

Yeah I mean I I guess have you noticed that it's been beneficial to take on uh that kind of manufacturing work as part of what uh Prince Customs does holistically like as I I guess uh what I mean is it it seems to me at least that um it is probably a good um diversification move to not just make knives um or uh or supplement with other things that are personal contacts but to actually be a supplier of the thing that you know a lot about sure in order to be able to like have stability and in in that diversification.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:16

Yeah I guess I've always liked the idea of diversification or being able to move like really quickly to you know to adapt to the times. Um is there's always something to learn so taking on that project was partially like you know personal growth. And uh yeah I mean it it's it was definitely a good thing for the shop and me personally in the long run. Like this past year it probably cost me way more than I made I'll make on it for a bit. But you know that's all part of the growing process and and uh yeah I mean I'm a a big partial owner of Moan Dueling so there's that too.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:02

Just trying to look out for the uh the best interest of the the company as a whole yeah well I mean I think that that's that's of a benefit I I think overall because you know as Jerry gets older there's like this whole question about like how how long can you actually do things right and um and and and and also um Jerry's legacy um and the way that he he thinks of of you know tooling and other things. I mean I have to tell you um I had Bill Roden um on uh quite a long time ago uh now and uh something that we had talked about is the fact that the um the Moen Plato and um the uh grinding features and whatnot yeah specifically have been a lifesaver for somebody with uh essential tremors um like like Bill has to be able to actually like just even think about uh making a knife right and like that's a really cool thing like e even though I know it's all it like it it all comes from a business standpoint to be able to do something with a legacy with Mo and tooling and and and the innovation around those things um to to um elongate a maker's uh ability to make knives regardless of what age does to you yeah I mean it's to me is a really cool thing yeah I mean you guys should be proud and I mean I I I I would assume that Jerry is but for sure yeah I mean he he loves that aspect of it like hearing from his customers like seeing what they do.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:38

I mean going back and like what some stuff he told me was that a lot of the guys you know they're they're resistant to it at first uh you know we're proud we can just hand grind these all day long no big deal why do we need a a fixture or a jig to help us out but as they get older they're that mindset flips pretty quickly when they you know have less control of their motor functions and uh realize hey I mean this can help me keep pursuing my passion for that many years longer right so there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

Yeah. And I also think um that it's one of the difficult things I think about uh n I guess knives I I and I don't really know if I've encountered it in a lot of other industry like um but there is a lot of resistance to change just period it's like like like if somebody does something a new way it's the knife maker's obligation to hate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:43

Well I think that's part of the resistance that I've felt I guess it was that I just do weird new things like nonstop so yeah yeah um yeah I mean I don't think it's specific to the knife industry that's just the human condition we're resistant to change.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

So yeah well I guess kind of on that note are are there things like that you guys are actively um working on in R D and stuff for mowing tools that um like are like are I make are are there things that you like are innovating into or is it is the plan to really um just do what Jerry has designed out in-house and continue with that same kind of uh uh fervor with manufacturing yeah so I mean there's definitely things that have been planned out or are in the works.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:39

Um of course with my schedule I haven't necessarily been able to like delve into bringing that up to speed in in production but um yeah like just a couple years ago we kinda prototyped a a lift table that could bring the grinder to whatever height you need standing or if somebody in a wheelchair needs to like roll up to it you could lower it to that height. There's that and then we're doing our own power source and uh the most recent thing that's being developed is probably this uh one inch version of the the Rotary Plant along with its own power source. That's probably the closest thing to to reaching like fruition right now. And of course the uh our existing products like the the Rotary Platen I made some updates to it when when I brought it in-house and then the jig right now is going undergoing some revisions as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:49

Yeah that's cool. I've um I decided it's kind of an expensive uh experiment uh for me but knives in general are us you know I I have I have a day job um I can kind of support playing around with things but I had the uh version one of the fixture and uh frankly disliked it and the only reason why I did is because you know um pitching the um head back and forth um you know required you undoing that screw. Yeah so version version two I loved. Yeah with the um yeah with the dovetails it made a big difference. Yeah and then after that um I think version three if I remember was the one where you could change the angle or the pitch of the um like the clamp itself. Well yeah with the uh with the the the fine adjuster knob or whatever it is. Um the what would be really cool is uh I don't know if you guys have already thought about this is you know there's um there's times especially in um in hollow grinding that there's um the so right now the only way to change the the the the axis or whatever of the blade is to uns uh unclamp it and to position it in a different angle or whatever. And and there's some times where like I I'll have it in there and I'm I'm like, you know, I would really like these plunges to be more swooped forward or maybe address it on on the wheel or whatever in a different way. And it's very difficult to um manipulate it without unclamping it. And so what's what's um what what's interesting to me at least is to be able to um adjust aspects of the um the position of I mean I don't want to sacrifice rigidity but I do want to be able to adjust position um where I I can address it in different ways on the wheel without having to unclamp it and change where it's indexed because especially if I've already made some like you know um uh preliminary passes or whatever and I'm like hmm like I can I can I can continue um backing up this grind line or whatever and kind of change it around to you know something else I was thinking of it's a little bit more adaptable. Yeah. Um but that was the that's the only other thing I think that at times if I have to unclamp it after I've already kind of started grinding something that's where I could um I could use a little bit more help. Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:21

No I mean it's definitely great to hear what people are thinking like in their process. I mean the only realistic way that I could think of when I was like looking at that kind of issue was like setting up almost like arcs on the table that the whole jig could follow. You might have to move away from like a flat base or something like that. Just so you could arc it in to the actual like plunge line instead of like trying to reposition and then like grinding it in. Like you'd actually have that whole arcs that brings it in and then you get to your to your main bevel. But yeah I mean I'm sure there's a million ways to solve like these types of problems.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:07

But yeah well a a design that's been used uh forever is in in you know photography or videography tripods how there's there's a dual wheel that has teeth on it and you can actually sub-index it to rotate the piece left or you know up or down uh you know when you're pitching a a tripod and there is there is something like that where you could you know put something in between the dovetailing and the the base where you could t technically do that I guess. But obviously it's it's just something I've thought about. Like um if if I get complex grinds like that, you know I don't I don't have the option for CNC really. And so I I have to go back to uh hand grinding, which I'm gonna say um there's there's a larger portion of my knives that are actually hand ground because of of my indecision and exactly how I want to address certain grinds. Which you know it's good because hand grinding you know keeps you sharp and everything. But there are times like once I've nailed down exactly the way that I want to address things, then the jig helps me to keep that same thing consistent and I don't have to worry so much about um uh waste because you know sometimes you know you can botch stuff pretty easily if uh if you do it by hand especially when you're you know when you're working with something so I I throw away far less blades but I still go through you know my normal hand grinding R and D and everything. And there's sometimes when there's a lot of replicate what you came up with. Yeah exactly. And it's you know I mean you're you're not dealing with so many axis of movement um on when you're when you're putting something in a jig, like not the same way as you're kind of uh quantum calculating all these different angles in your hands and body position and uh based on you know the platin or whatever that you're using. So um all those all that kind of stuff kind of fascinates me. Um but I always go back to like hitting something on the head with a with a rock. You know real real the real arcane you know I mean quote unquote like artistic side of uh uh grinding. Um but you know I do appreciate the consistency um that that the grinding jig uh allows. I just um the the next investment I think I would actually like to make if there's uh tooling um um that I could you know buy would be um to do something like getting the uh the wheel on platinum combo thing that you guys uh sell. Because I like right now I uh I grind on a on a 14 inch wheel. Okay. Um and I I like the fact that you can get hollow grind geometry but it's mostly you know mostly looks like a flat grind. Yeah on a 14 but there are definitely some things I don't like about um large wheel um grinding and I really do like the the scooping um that happens on on smaller contact wheels but um um like I'd like to I'd like to get into like some straight racer uh type of work and things like that and doing more dagger grinds but I mean doing any type of attractive dagger grinds on a 14 inch wheel is too it's kind of different. Well yeah I mean because you you really want it to like dig in there and cut that out um and you you can't do it as well. But even then like a 10 inch might be a little big for a dagger grind sometimes. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah especially if you're doing like the like ABS style quillian daggers and whatnot you want something that's like you know maybe a two inch wheel um but you know you even still having um having some tooling like the the Mowen Platinum where you can um index new wheels uh so rather than using a 10 inch being able to have the same apparatus and backing that you could use a a two inch or whatever that would be kind of cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:05

Yeah so I mean currently it has the 10, the flat and then on each end of the flat there's two inch wheels and you got like the slack between the two inch and the 10. But so it has a little bit of flexibility.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:18

Yeah well I mean can you can you do normal bevel grinding on those uh contact wheels that are um on the edge of the the flat platen I guess I've never I I haven't um I've never been able to play around with one I've seen you know normal demos for flat yeah so the side plates on the that support those two inch wheels they're recessed enough to where you'd be able to do a a bevel grind with those guys interesting I'll have to look into that I don't know I have enough money for you guys yet but um uh it's definitely it it's kind of it's kind of difficult like my my uh eighteen year old daughter is like you know I'd like a car at some point in time and I'm like man I was like I gotta Equipment I want to buy.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:02

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:04

Yeah, it's it's difficult having kids that wanting to play around with uh you know spending money and being reckless. But um I guess this last Blade Show, you won award for uh best custom uh Mac, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:20

Yeah, the machine assisted that new category that they came out with.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:25

And a guild award for best uh tactical folder. Uh the tactical was last year. And then the year before 22 as well. Yeah. So so this this year was the best uh mechanical folder.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:39

I didn't make it up in time for the to enter anything in the guild awards this year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:44

Yeah. Yeah. The uh the timing on those things and the day like being the day before makes it a little bit more difficult. But um what um what's your opinion on awards? Do you think that um as like in your vein of of knife making and what you're doing, that those um accolades um uh help in you bus uh building your brand?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:07

Um not sure how much it helps brand wise, because it's really just people within the industry that are watching that. Um realistically, the end users or you know, your customers, they probably don't really care if they like the design, but then they're gonna buy it anyway. Um so for me it's more of just like a an industry validation thing since I'm kinda going out on a limb making these weird things. Like, hey, d does the industry or d do my peers accept this stuff? Like do they think it's cool or like worthy of sticking around for? That's that's more of what I gain from it than any like financial or branding gain that I can see.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:02

Yeah, that makes sense. Um I guess uh what what's what is like the next progression of things for for your work? I mean, I I know that that I don't feel like that's a loaded question anymore because I understand a lot more about like how how you innovate in certain areas. But do you have like when you when you upgraded um into the like the power grid and stuff that you're doing for your um for your machinery and uh getting other equipment and stuff, those are like big steps in a in a direction of more versatility. But what is what is like Prince Customs and what is your knives look like over the next, you know, I don't know, three to five years? Do you have like anything that in particular that you're trying to shoot for in in a in a general sense?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:50

So I guess now that I guess the industry it seems like the industry likes what I'm doing for the most part. Um I'm probably gonna try to get into something with a bit higher production. I've really done like super small batch, like or full custom, like here and there. Up until this point. So this year I'm gonna push a little bit harder into the manufacturing side since I have the equipment for it. And uh hopefully from there that'll give me a little bit more time to delve into the artistic side. And um yeah. We'll see where it goes.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:34

Yeah. Um, you know, something I've been interested in, uh uh Jim Skelton has had some health issues that have got uh got him out of doing the custom work and more into the manufacturing side, right? And I've actually been impressed with his relationship with Tuya uh when it comes to you know manufacturing and um and how that relationship has come to fruition. Is there ever any intention inside of the mechanical world to have any uh division of labor or equipment or things towards like working with uh custom knife makers to springboard into manufacturing? Um what do you mean by that? Sorry, I'm not quite following. Well, what I mean is that um so right now everything that you do um uh inside of the world of knives is um is your design centric, right? So your design, your tooling, your manufacturing. Yeah, it's all right now it's all in my shop. Yeah. Yeah. Well what I mean is that um in in the future, like if somebody like me, for instance, had a design and I worked out all the details and kind of how I wanted to do it, um is there any um is there any future where uh somebody like me can work with a a custom knife maker that really understands the manufacturing process and take that in through the um the manufacturing process and have you actually produce that that thing in a production um quantity for somebody like me versus me going to you or somebody else that usually deals with uh you know larger volumes and um and uh I don't know, a lar larger manufacturing overhead to get to the same spot.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:24

Um I mean I've kinda I guess tipped my toe into that a little bit with some of the collaborations that I've had. Like the first one being with Keenason and Vitesse. We did the uh Camdons together. Um that wasn't like me doing full-on manufacturing. Still sent like the raw parts to Keenason for them to put the final touches on, like the the grinds and the lockup and all that kind of stuff. Um I just I'd have to say that my shop and capabilities would have to grow a bit more before I felt like uh it was a good enough value proposition for other makers. And a bit more automated on my end for me to be able to even think about offering that kind of service in the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:19

Yeah, I mean, and that that makes sense. I I I ask in a general sense because I I definitely see where there is a um there's a humongous gap between those who kind of want to do something production. Because you know, like the uh the the kind of people that uh that I see are are people like you and you know and working with you know uh designs and people like uh like Brian and Keenerson and you know uh Skelton working with Tuya and uh and it's kind of difficult as a maker to say, oh hey, hey buddy, can you walk me through this entire process that probably took you a long time to figure out because there is no real there's a real no real clear path to going from where you know having a a a pattern or a design that you think will work and then actually doing smallbacks production um for that sake. Like to me, there's some somebody like you I would trust a whole lot more to be able to actually work on that. And if you know if it doesn't if it doesn't work out long term where you want to do the manufacturing, I'd be like, okay, like I I can probably take this on to a larger um kind of um agnostic manufacturer, but you understand so much about like all these intricate um mechanics of of knives that I would probably trust you more than just taking it somewhere else and spending, you know, you know, fifty thousand dollars or something in um all the design and and manufacturing process with somebody else. I'd much rather give some portion of that money or all of it to somebody like you because you know, I trust you more, sure, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:59

Yeah, I guess the idea of it is much better, but in reality, the like going to an actual factory probably has its benefits. Um yeah, me being a one-man shop even with what I think I know. I mean these guys have uh these factories have been making knives for for ages, so I mean in the long run or it's probably makes more financial sense or to you know use these factories, is what which is why a lot of the guys have been turning to you know, Riot or Tuya and all that kind of stuff. Because there's not there's not really that option in the the US at the moment from from what I can tell.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:48

Yeah, well I mean and the the manufactur I mean the total cost to manufacture something uh is a lot higher um in the United States. Like I deal with that all the time because you know probably in the last in the last twenty twenty years of working in uh technology, there's been a lot less um prejudice towards working with um you know, like Indian developers, for instance, or or overseas ones. But b back when I was like starting, there was such a a humongous fervor with quality assurance and uh language gaps, like nobody nobody was um receptive towards speaking to somebody from a different country or call center or whatever in order to get technical stuff done, even though from a technical capabilities perspective, the United States resources didn't know any more, in fact, probably less. Um but they also cost like 20 times as much. And so I'm not saying like the the economy of working, like working with people has um uh leveled out. I mean, it's still more expensive to um manufacture things or um I mean uh to support things technologically in the United States. Um but then you have this entire crowd where it's like if it's if it's from China or if it's from any other place other than the USA, then it's like an absolute no-go. Um and I'm interested to know if the industry will change as quality assurance and um and time to delivery and stuff changes as well. I I'm kind of monitoring it, but there still seems to be a lot of fervor of like US-made, um, everything has to be some somehow manufactured in the United States, otherwise it's not um there's no value proposition.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:37

At least in the knife industry, there's a lot of guys saying that, but when it comes down to it and these guys putting their money down, they're still buying like these Chinese manufactured knives for the most part. I mean, there's guys that actually stick to it where they're like, oh yeah, I want US made and they support it. But the large majority of the market is gonna put their money on a good product that costs less.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:05

So yeah. Well, um at Blade Show, Texas, uh my little brother went to like you mean he walked around everywhere, but he um previous to him buying a Civivi knife, he had um um he had had some like Smith and Wesson like real cheap um frame lock, right? And I I was like, hey, like let me look at that for a second. I think maybe he paid like less than sixty dollars for it. Yeah, like a lot of the civivis are 30 bucks now. Yeah. And I I looked at it and I was like, dude, I was like, this was only like less than $100. And I'm looking at like the the like the uh the geometry, like does the symmetry look good? How's the fit up look good? I mean, this was a liner lock versus a standard um like frame lock, which seems to be like the more budget option. Um and dude, I couldn't honestly find a single thing I disliked about it. Like the clothes was great. Um like backwards and forwards was great. And I'm like, dude, it's just it's really hard to dislike something because of some like um uh uh prejudice, uh, you know, national prejudice or whatever. When you see just how good uh they've got in their manufacturing and quality control process. And I just, you know, um I hope that that uh continues to um benefit the knife making community and like ideas.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:32

Yeah, I think um I mean what they're doing phenomenal work and it's just gonna push the manufacturers from anywhere further along. So it's it's good for everyone. Competition is always good.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:47

Aaron Powell Yeah, I think so. And you know, the I guess the probably the one area that has been difficult inside of this entire knife economy is like pricing. Um because you know, like I I don't make pocket knives, but I make smaller size knives. And you know, I I maybe it's the the the pocket of customer base that I'm in. Um it it's it's a lot harder to uh to convince somebody that a pocket size like a pocket knife sized blade on a fixed blade is worth you know three to five hundred bucks, right? Okay. Um like that's kind of like the standard um I think on on pricing. But I I but there's there's some general argument about value when you're making a custom knife or a handmade knife in this case, right? It's not full custom, but um a handmade knife for that general price in that size, and there's uh you know general um there's general dissent about like whether there's value in that. Um pocket knife seem to it be a little bit easier um for the same same um the same quality of a pocket knife, but it's interesting to me how in this manufacturing processes, as they get better, how that's going to affect the handmade market, because you know, everybody knows that with custom knife makers you can go out and kind of uh pick list uh in order to get product. But when you're talking about for general consumption, like uh a knife that I make, you know, I pick the scales, I pick the steel, blah, blah, whatever. And as a handmade knife, uh I I'm I'm interested to know if over time that value proposition will change where it's like, man, I can get like I can get something for a hundred bucks that's manufactured so well um uh overseas and and it's actually available more than just like one. Like I can buy five or ten of them if I want to, and they all look the same, um, versus the handmade. And I'm just I'm interested to know somewhat in the in the uh the handmade craft, how that will change with time depending like on whether manufacturing uh becomes uh m more streamlined, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:07

I mean, I think manufacturing is already streamlined enough to where it has that impact. But I think support of an artist, which is basically what you know custom knife makers are, is is always gonna be there. That's what we're relying on. I mean, even these manufacturers, um the custom knife market is really what pushes the industry. I mean you see most of the innovation coming from the custom makers, not necessarily like the factory and stuff. It's always from a designer or something like that. So there's always gonna be support of the of that other end where you know, this guy making it in his shop, you're supporting the maker, you're supporting like a job in your country, wherever that may be. Um and then the manufacturing side just fills a completely different side of the market, you know, a different need.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:07

Yeah. Well, um kind of r uh winding down from our interview, um I'm I'm interested because uh I I really think that there is um well let me let me f try to frame this. Um 3D printing, I I think has been a good jumping off point for a lot of young um you know people who are you know thinking about engineering or thinking about um you know tinkering with technology as it relates to producing uh physical goods, right? And it's it's been really good. But I also see like like what you do, what you're doing and what uh Lucas is doing and people like that um of providing a a window where where young, impressionable um you know engineering, manufacturing type of uh minds are able to get into it um with a little bit more ease than where you know it seemed like you you want to be yeah, you want to get this big CNC machine and everything. It's just unrealistic, right? I mean it's it's like that that's unobtained to a y a young kid uh who wants to cut his teeth into um CNC and manufacturing.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:28

But yeah, now I mean these days you can get uh software like Fusion 360, you know, for not much or even for free on an educational license. And whereas back when I, you know, bought my little mill, uh a seat of SolidWorks was like ten thousand dollars or something insane like that. And uh yeah, you can get Fusion, 3D printer, you know, tinker with it for a while, play on your computer, and actually have a physical object like for a few grand, right? Yeah. Or if you even less if you're getting like a cheaper printer. But yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah. The barrier to entry is so much slower these days.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:11

Yeah, so it I mean, kind of it with uh young knife makers listening to this, I'm interested, like what what would be from your recommendations on quality and whatnot, a good entry-level like CNC machine? Like you mentioned about doing uh having like a tabletop unit, but what is something that you've seen that's actually you know like a game changer, like you wish you would have had that in the earlier days?

SPEAKER_03 1:46:34

Um so there's this new company, Sile, that's uh bringing in machines from China that's have pretty amazing specifications for the price. If you're like jumping into like a real CNC machine, they'll start at like 30 grand and they're big enough for knife making. And yeah, that's with like factory warranty and all that kind of stuff. So I would look into that and then Haas is still a real player because uh because of their financing. I mean if you're jumping into it starting out a business, like having a company that'll back you with their financing is it's a pretty big deal.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:21

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, and uh honestly, like you you could try like you could try to finance a brand new like a brand new car that's like okay like mid-grade, or if you really want to, instead of financing that car, you get a cash car and you could invest in a um a CNC machine. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I mean that's actually uh that that makes it very obtainable. Like what uh in general, what does the the Haas um um CNC start at from a you know entry-level CNC machine?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:52

Um they kinda they kind of start at 30-ish grand, but with any real options, they quickly get up to 50, 60 grand like for an entry level. Um that's why the the siles have been really kind of hitting the market suddenly is that they come with all the options for 30 grand with a better spindle, like faster rapids and cutting speeds and all that kind of stuff. And uh the footprint's smaller, so realistically it could fit into somebody's garage pretty easily. Um 30 to 60-ish is probably where you'd probably start out.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:36

Yeah. Well, and on those machines, what's their power source like? Are they running on single phase or are they running on three phase, or kind of what does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 1:48:43

The siles are running on three phase, so you'd probably have to get a phase converter if you're running it out of your garage. Yeah, and the the Haas, there's some lower end options like the the tool room mill that I got to start out with that can run on single phase. Like a 220 circuit.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:06

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Well, there's that's a lot to think about in all of that. I mean, I I can't say I I I I embrace CNC, and I embrace it I think because I'm a little bit more used to technology. Um a AI has been the weird thing inside of technology with like how much how much can it actually do?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:28

But like if we're less breaking into like the cam programming and all that kind of stuff for CNC as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:33

Oh yeah. Well um something that's uh uh really surprised me is how intelligent the design is on uh some of those uh softwares, like to be able to um I guess pre pre programmatically index uh holes or uh figure out centering geometries or things like that where it's not like before, like when you have to use uh rulers and scales and math and stuff it's like a lot more complicated but now they actually have you know i you know photosho Photoshop uh uh style filters or or pre pre-programs to be able to do a lot of that stuff um and to to me that's like really cool because it does take the barrier of uh entry and learning curve uh down substantially um and I I mean I don't know have they gotten into a lot of like um um AI when it comes to um like the CNC software and everything it's just kinda starting to break into the market like on the machine programming side like some basic operations that they have some software that they can you know pick from your tool library and kinda apply basic operations to start machining apart or roughing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:53

But yeah I mean it's just in its infancy. I wouldn't say that it's super developed quite yet. But it is breaking in. On the design side not really I mean there's generative design but that's not really anything that's relevant to the knife market.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:14

Yeah um that is interesting because you know in in like IT type of stuff everybody's like well AI's going to take over everything and uh I actually um I I don't want to pay for corporate photos. Like I I have to get them at some point in time but I I'm I'm uh a tight water when it comes to that stuff so I don't want to pay for like a a photo shoot and having to get the suit out and you know so did you do the AI version? Yeah dude it was awful um really yeah it was I had some friends use it that came out pretty well as long as you're hiding your hands you know yeah well that's the problem is is like so I have a pretty full size beard right okay gotcha yeah that wasn't it though like that that is like the um the bottom end of what I was actually concerned about. So it made me lose like a hundred pounds which so I guess uh like I'm not like like incredibly overweight but uh you know it's it's still it it changed my body composition. I saw my Adam's apple for the first time, which wasn't mine, it was just superimposed on somebody's face. And and I had I had hair like all like they make you like submit like um twenty different but similar images and it takes that and stitches it together in some way uh on on what I can only imagine as like a model back backing. So take taking the face and wiping it out and putting in it with some you know different hairstyles and things, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:52:43

Yeah like onto a like professional portrait that you pick from somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:47

Yeah and and a person that kind of meets like maybe they changed skin tone or whatever to match your um the images that you submitted that they sampled from and dude it was awful like I mean not not only did my entire body composition change but they they removed like most of my beard um I had hair that I haven't had in like 15 years. Because I you know I shave my head now but I'm like like like full on balding.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:14

I wonder if that's predominantly because you know so much marketing for centuries has been based on a certain body composition whereas just recently you know we've gotten into different body shapes and stuff like that that you see in in advertising.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:29

So I wonder if the stuff to compare it to just doesn't exist for the AI to draw from yeah well and I I don't feel body shamed it's not that it's it's mostly just kind of like the exercise in um uh who's the ph physicist? He was on Joe Rogan's um is it uh his Kaku is his last name um I'm not sure yeah he's he's a physicist and um he he talked like maybe uh almost a year ago about the fact that um without quantum computing AI is really limited in its ability to be anything more than a human readable search engine. Sure. And and what I have found at least in most of the AI technology is what whatever I can do through research, like you know going like like Google foo and you know figuring things out, um it just does a little bit faster. And uh but largely when you're writing in human readable form and it's interpreting it that way, it is very unintelligent. Like things don't really make sense. So there's there's this little bit of like um like kind of like uncanny effect. We're like nah this is this kind of feels a little bit real, but it really isn't. And then you start like breaking apart logic um um in inside of AI and it becomes very apparent of how how limited it is. Like I don't think that we're anywhere close to like the singularity where we're going to be worshipping our robot overlords. But it is interesting as a tool and I'd be interested to see how that actually plays into um you know further developing out software and whatnot inside of CNC to make things easier. I I don't know it's to me it seems it's more than emerging right I know it's been used for forever um already um but uh you know like that the balance of like with the old guard saying that uh CNC is is uh not a a valid form of making craft stuff to me seems to be a fairly um limited mindset.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:32

Trevor Burrus Yeah seems to be waning at this point.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:36

Well I've uh I mean realistically those guys started out I they probably would have bought any tool they could have that would help their game so yeah it's just CNC is more available and accessible now so it's another tool that's available.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:50

Trevor Burrus Well and that is true. I mean because uh even though uh pantographs inside of the context of uh of knife making is is still really niche um any like lots of knife makers they're like if if I could buy a panograph I'd love it because I can do these things. I'm like oh well you're just doing manual CNC. I mean basically yeah I mean and even in milling operations um there's there's lots of things like DRO and other tools that make it even like the panograph users they're like 3D printing their their profiles right so it's like where do you draw the line here? Yeah well and I think that that's the thing um like I I I definitely um when it comes to knife drama well in any drama uh really but um especially in knives with what I see is like always be humble and kind because it seems to me it's like we're just you're just a a a tiny like try changing your objective lens to a just a slightly different angle to invalidating your argument. And if you really stick to it too much then you start removing some of these like argument points. Like you know I know I know lots of great um 100%ers uh that also use panographs and also use grinding jigs and also use like DRO and all these things that are computerized. It's just it's not put into a program that executes it in a you know consistent way. They are the operator, the organic computer. And so um you know I I I I really want to see in its own vein where um CNC machining and things like that goes and how that um affects knives. And like I I I do appreciate um you being able to talk through that because I think that vantage point um well I think hopefully it changes some of the uh perception around that because there is still a lot of holdouts and I don't really um I don't really respect the Puritan attitude too much. I mean it really kind of just is a little bit of perspective change and then it becomes a lot lot harder argument to try to uh put up with the the most pushback I ever like actually saw was probably in one of the skeleton videos on YouTube.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:08

There were a bunch of comments, you know, anti-CNC or oh there's no skill in doing this or that using a machine. But I mean when I like actively engage like those people that were trying to say that I would just explain it to them. It's like I spent my time, you know, building up my hand skills back in the day. I understand that you know your motor memory I your motor skills and building up your motor memory is you know it's it's something that takes quite a while and and just in that same vein I'm also putting resources into building up these other skills that allow me to use a different tool. And they all seem to understand that, you know you look at it from a tool standpoint instead of you know just I'm doing it this way versus using a robot or something like that. It's just a new skill that you decide to learn and yeah I mean you're either proud of your skills or or not and you understand that there's new things coming along that can make you better or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:20

Yeah well I have I have mad respect for um the intellect that goes into it. It's not a brainless um function and um I couldn't do it and I've tried I've tried programming so many times in in many many different uh scenarios and I am about as lame brained as it can get I just don't think I don't think that way. And so even though the the mode of manual um labor and and craftsmanship works for my my my my fig physical acumen uh with things um I have a profound respect for um the very few people in the world collect I mean collectively if you take if you take all the knife makers that have been able to bang out steel um after forge and fire and things and you take the number of knife manufacturers in CNC there is very, very few um that can operate CNC in in in a way to use it and expressively inside of the art form. And to me that should be some litmus test into the complication that arises from trying to use um that tooling for very complicated tasks.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:34

Yeah I mean could say that but there's also like a huge financial difference in building on a shop that has CNC capabilities versus you know getting a two by 72 and a a grinder and you know or a forge and that kind of stuff. So there's that too.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:54

Yeah I guess so I mean I I get it but I also like don't tell my wife um how much I've spent in the shop because like all the different equipment that I've gone through and testing things out and like I wish it was as simple as just you know two by seventy two and run, but you know all of the additional handle materials and things that I've got for different types of um different types of designs and like all of that stuff, it adds up. And if I think about it, my total investment over the last like seven, eight years has probably been um i I probably could have gotten uh into CNC work if I would have been patient and thought about it as a financial investment. Whereas I've grown out a knife shop over time and probably spent that much or more. And you know it's it's one of those things where I think to each their own for sure but you can easily dance in the $60 to $7000 range to build out a a competent shop if you've been making knives for you know 10 years. Sure some people some people can do it you know real easy um and with um rudimentary machinery and that's another level of craftsmanship. But you know it's I I think again it goes back to being humble and kind and and a little bit appreciative of the uh you know skill set that it takes to be able to organize all that stuff because you know there's lots of there's lots of people who are not mechan like uh electrically engineered either to be able to know how like all the um electrical fixtures and supply and how to run a business and everything like that to offset the cost of things. It's the reason why you're the guild secretary. I mean it's uh I think it it's it makes a lot more sense to somebody who knows numbers and knows business to be able to do business quality uh um um finance and stuff um so you know uh I appreciate you and I appreciate what you're doing and you make you know like mind-bogglingly cool knives and it's uh it's been a pleasure to get to actually sit here and talk to you uh finally and just pick your brain a little bit so I I mean I I really appreciate your time because I know it is valuable. No thank you yeah thank you for your time. Yeah absolutely thank you for spending your time with me on this episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are worthy loved and may God strengthen and bless you on your own journey in this crazy thing called life