The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Join me as I talk to other knifemakers, craftsmen and artisans in my journey to unpack the mysteries of knifemaking, and the culture by which it's built. This podcast features interviews with many of the men and women who have built, or are building the industry of knives and knife making as we know it today. Visit us at thegoodolbladespodcast.com!
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The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Episode 45 - Livin' Knives The Hard Way - Evan Nicolaides
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There's a culture inside of knives, and especially knife shows, where we all seem to be fans of our fellow knifemakers. We can meet a knifemaker for the first time, and feel like we're old friends. We can sit and geek out on sometimes the smallest aspects of knives, and fill hours with each other. Companionship, camaraderie, and mutual respect feed great conversations, and build lifelong friendships. Evan Nicolaides is one of those people that is really easy to like. He's a wealth of knowledge, tries new things all the time, and is willing to push his fellow makers to do the same. He's also just a phenomenal knifemaker, and pushes the envelope on Sheffield era cutlery recreation, and well....everything else he touches. It was great to get to talk to him on this immersive episode of the podcast, where we just talk and admire other maker's work too.
Check out Evan on social media with his Facebook, Instagram and Website.
And you believe me as we talk to other knife makers. Within the multitude of knife makers, there is a split between fixed blade and folders. And within folders, many more splits, each filling a niche. It's the nature of knives and the niche within niche within niche that stratifies the world of a knife maker. Countless paths and rabbit holes to occupy even the flightiest of fellows. Inside of slip joints, there may be many makers, but the rise of a few golden boys has caught my attention over the years, and Evan Nicolitus is definitely one of them. In his journey to conquer the mighty slip joint mechanism, I have witnessed his toils, and Evan is definitely one of those makers that prefers to do it the hard way first, and then find ways to bring the superb into the sublime and combine efficiencies. In the pursuit to cut no corners, Evan has solidified himself as a top-tier knife maker, and his recreation work in Sheffield era slip joints has pushed the envelope on resurrecting some of the most stunning examples of cutlery to ever exist. There may not be many makers out there like Evan doing what he does, but he's a wealth of knowledge and a proponent of continuing the legacy of bringing back old school cool in his journey in knives. Evan, it's great to have you on the Good Works Podcast. Yeah, absolutely. Um well, so it's it's great to finally um have an opportunity to talk with you. Uh we've kind of done this little uh chasing back and forth for almost a year now. I think that I talked to you sometime last year after we kind of like after I kind of like stabilized things with the podcast, and I knew that that was like, you know, I was gonna continue with it and and everything. And so I wanted to talk to you um a lot because um there's things that you're doing inside of uh inside of knives that is not really so common. Um and uh you know, whether it's your uh Shelf Sheffield uh reproduction work, I guess you might call it, um, and some of the techniques and things like that that you do, um, like to uh to me uh that just like I want to get into why you decided to do that stuff. Um, but also uh, you know, uh probably early on in my knife making journey in the 2016 um era, um, I I had seen you know videos of you and I've I've followed your Instagram and whatnot. And so for me, um, I'm actually coming to this conversation as a little bit of a fanboy because you know, not only has your technique and everything been inspired inspiring, but what you have done within knives has just been something that's always uh it's always made me think about ways that I can do things that, you know, it's not a replica of you, um, but that there's a whole like a whole ton of techniques uh for making knives and and how do you as a maker choose uh what you do? And then it's made me like be a little bit more introspective about things like what is it that I really uh want to get out of knives and what do I want to um how do I want to use that medium to express myself? So, you know, first first thank you for that. But I mean uh definitely a pleasure to have you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks, man. Um that's actually something I've been really fascinated about for a while, kind of how personal the the process is for each knife maker. Like I always think of you know Tony and Reese, they're in the same shop. Reese learned everything from Tony, and they had their own tools in there, and they would do things totally differently. Uh it's you know, it's uh how it works with your personality, how it works with you. Um there isn't a set way to do everything. There's you know uh tons of different ways to do uh many, many things, especially, you know, um when it comes to folding knives, there's so many different aspects of them. And it really is kind of like a personal process. And I love picking guys' brains about how they do different things and trying different stuff out all the time, seeing what works for me. Uh, if I like something, I'll adopt it. You know, if not, you know, it was worth a try, right? See if I could uh make something a little bit easier for myself or if I like it more. But yeah, um yeah, it's kind of cool that you know to hear that uh you saw some of those old videos and tutorials and stuff. Uh but yeah, man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean, I I think in some ways uh knife makers in social media that share their behind the scenes process, you don't really realize how much of like the blind leading the blind it is. Um, but you know, I I mean I definitely knew that there were things that you were trying out for the first time, but then I was like, ah, like that that's pretty cool. Like as you're learning things, I'm also like ingesting that and trying to figure out how does that apply to me. Um and and what kind of ideas does it spark. So I mean, you know, like when you see somebody who's innovating, that becomes intriguing, especially if you're kind of one of those people that likes to do like to do things that are a little bit outside of the box. So that's that's that's kind of the thing to me. Like I think that it's definitely a um a point where when we kind of uh commit and invest in the community, as it were, and just kind of share behind the scenes. It's a lot different than back in the day when everything was like, you know, quote unquote proprietary and people were hiding techniques or giving false information because they just wanted to, you know, stamp out competition.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I mean the internet's totally changed it too. I remember when I started, there wasn't nearly, nearly the amount of information out there on uh how to make knives, how to do different uh uh you know different things. Uh I think two uh two things that helped me out were uh I found two books on making slip joints. Um one of them is how to make a multi-blade folder. And I forget the other one. I think the title of the book was Making Slip Joints My Way. Um but I mean now there's like the uh making slip joints Facebook group, there's tons and tons of information in there. Uh it's so much easier to get a hold of people and just pick their brains about stuff. When uh when I started, I I couldn't find any of this information. Uh so I was kind of trying to figure out figure it out on my own for at least the the first couple years. Uh I started out modifying knives. So that's where I began, and that was just completely you know I I barely knew how to use tools before I got into that. Um I'd always been artistic. I liked working with my hands. I still clearly I still do. Uh but I was looking for a hobby, and then my buddy turned me on to Great Eastern Cutlery knives, and I fell in love. And then I started dabbling and collecting and went on eBay and bought this old Barlow. And when I when it got to me, I didn't realize it had shell handles on it, so they were hollow plastic handles. I was like, these have to go. So I just like, you know what, I'm gonna try to make my own handles. Did that I had a lot of fun, uh, started getting involved in blade forums and posted a picture of them. People really liked it. And uh, hey, maybe this will be a fun hobby, right? Got some case knives, did the same thing. Next thing you know, people want to buy them, and then I'm buying up uh guardiason cutlery knives like crazy and modifying them. And I did that for a couple years, I want to say. Uh burned through a lot of uh Nightbright GC 15s. A lot of them because they were the the cheapest ones out, right? I think I was getting it for like 50 bucks at the time. Like talking about like 2013. You see one of those things on eBay now, they're like $200. But uh yeah, I whittled down those numbers, uh production numbers on those. Yeah. But um, it got to the point where uh you know I wasn't just gluing down new handles and keeping the original bolsters. I was making the liners, soldering bolsters on, doing mill reliefs uh for on the liners to keep the tanks from getting scratched up. I was basically doing everything but uh making the blades in the springs. So I took that plunge in I want to say December of 2014. Yeah. And then I went to Blade in 2015. I exhibited. I didn't I I'd never met another slip joint maker. They stuck me in the back corner. And uh I didn't even really explore all that much. It was so overwhelming. I had no idea what I was getting into. But uh I loved it. Loved it and kept going and you know, I still had a full-time job at that point, so it was still a hobby, but you know, kept working at it, you know, reinvesting everything I made back into my shops, get better tools, you know, stopped grinding on a one by thirty Harbor Freight grinder, um and building it up and then yeah, kind of went from there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, that's a that's a lot of growth from uh um your early early days of knife modification. But I don't I don't uh see a lot of people that would go as deeply into modifying GEC knives um as you have. Uh you know, uh similarly, uh uh Jason Ritchie um uh got into modifying knives before he started making his own slip joints too, if I remember correctly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was I was talking to him about that, and he told me, he's like, man, I watched all the tutorials you put on bladeforms on how to do this stuff, and like that totally got me into it. I was like, dude, that's so cool to hear. So I'm glad the information I was putting out there helped somebody because it wasn't there when I was doing it, you know. And um yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun, and then uh it was a while before I saw, you know, somebody that got to spend time with another nightmaker, and I mean that was uh a big change after that. And uh I forget exactly what it was, I want to say um either November of or December of 2016 I went and saw Tony and Reese. My in-laws were living in Carmel, Indiana, and it was about uh I want to say like an hour and a half, two hours away from Shelburne. Um and I called Tony up before just out of the blue. He's like, Yeah, I know where you are, come on over. And I was like, Oh, what? Why do you why do you know who I am? Um little did I know, Tony was you know poking around bladeforms. And he, you know, was watching watching what people were doing, paying attention. And uh after that, it was like I'd never handled a quality custom slip joint up until that point. And it just blew my mind. I was like, okay, this is what they're supposed to look like. Now I know what I need to do. Um because up to that point it was pretty much production stuff, right? So Great Eastern Cutlery that was you know the pretty much the gold standard for production. And that uh so that was a that was a change. And just uh you know, the first time I hung out in the shop with him, I learned a lot, and uh but I think the biggest thing was opening my eyes up to what they could be in terms of precision, how clean the work was, how beautiful everything was, and something to strive for. So that was yeah set me off on a different trajectory.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Um yeah, my my early experience in like custom slip joints, I had gone to uh it was right before COVID, I think it was the last show that they did, but that they had a group uh with uh 100 percenters and uh and if I remember correctly, the two people that I saw were uh Johnny Stout with liner locks and Tom Overinder. Um, and I got to mess with a few of his uh multi-blade slip joints, and I was like, oh man. Like at that point, I was making like mostly cutlery stuff. It was more of what I knew, hunting, hunting blazing all fixed stuff. And I was getting into the mechanisms for slip joints. And uh uh that show, um, even though it was like a micro show, uh really it changed it changed, I I think the perspective that I have on on going out and actually uh you know feeling and manipulating um you know quality work. It's one of the reasons why I do like shows is because you know you get you get to be you like to get to uh coon finger uh a bunch of you know phenomenal makers and they you know they are more than happy to share knowledge and uh give you that that tactile experience and it really changes it because before that I don't think my hands knew what uh like high quality really felt like and and the machining. I mean, uh Tommy is just like a phenomenal uh machinist. And and and and so like for me, it was like everything was perfect. And it didn't matter that you know he was using all you know rose gold pins and the nicest handle materials and everything. His you he could have like stripped it down to bare bones and it would have been the most perfect um mechanical uh knife um out there. He just does a phenomenal job.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he does. But yeah, that that change, once you get to handle that, see the fit and finish, how tight everything is, how perfect everything is, how buttery smooth the action is, it's mind blowing. Um and I mean that I mean that's part of the reason I love going to shows too. It's an inspiration every time I meet somebody new, see some uh work from a maker I hadn't met yet, get to handle it, and it's inspiring. It's really cool. I love shows.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love that. I mean, it's a it's something that you perpetuate too with your making is uh, you know, getting getting your work out there, um, taking those, you know, experiences with um, you know, fit and finish and the you know tactile um mechanical nature of things and then just like allowing it to proliferate. Um and that that to me is cool. You know, everybody should do that. Like uh even if uh shows are not the most regular thing for a maker, uh, they should at least go to the to them um fairly regularly. And if they have the opportunity to exhibit and get that customer feedback and you know, be in the room with some of those people, I I really enjoy it. It's one of the unfortunate parts about the economy and everything is that you know, shows are way more expensive in comparison to kind of the sales and things like that that you get uh most of the time. So it's like it's always an investment in quote unquote marketing. Uh, but uh that's that's the way I have to feel about it. Otherwise, I'm like, dude, this is like totally not worth it. It really is.
SPEAKER_03I know, and I used to have the position that that uh the shows weren't worth it. I'd uh I'd go to Blade Show, um and that was kind of a vacation, you know what I mean? Get to hang out with people from the community, but I didn't see it as worth it on a business side uh but it it's uh it's really important. Uh people want to see you, they want to meet you, they want to see who's behind the work. Uh and at the same time, like if you sell a knife online, right? Say it trades hands with five people. That's five people that got to handle that knife at a show. You could have a hundred people handle that knife and they'll get to experience it and see your work. Uh you know, a picture on Instagram could only do so much, right? Um I I I I'm sure you have uh seen this as well. Uh something will look great in a picture and then you see it in person, and you're like, oh uh you know, that could use work here, you know. Half of it's the action, right? You've got to be able to to uh to feel that in person, to be able to judge it. Um so that's that's something that that's really important with the shows and it's the community aspect of as well. Uh hanging out with other makers, it's it's pretty much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I think uh, you know, for for newer slip joint makers, um, well, I mean, I guess it can really apply to folders in general, but especially slip joints, um, there's uh to me, I almost if I close my eyes and I and I feel um a slip joint and its mechanism, that's really kind of where I under like where it talks to me, right? And it's you know, it's a does it sound right? Does it feel right in in its in its positions? Does it um does it feel good on the tips of the fingers? Does it fit well in the palm? Um, is the weight distribution right? I mean, and I know that it's like you know, a pocket knife that weighs almost nothing compared to fixed blades, but um, you know, the the thing is, is like if I'm opening a knife and I hear it like I feel it crunchy in one of the uh in one of the positions, I'm like, okay, like this, these are areas that need to be worked on because the idea is that it should be um it should be a sound mechanism um first, and you know, having uh crunchy action um it is something where there's there's a fun fundamental, I guess, misunderstanding or lack of um appropriate attention put on uh you know tang geometry and and and the interplay between harnesses of the spring and the uh and the tang surfaces and things like that. Um and there's like a multitude of ways to fix those things. Uh but you know, a maker should really be um concerned with fit, you know, fit and finish and mechanical uh principles first if they're going to try to um you know make a really uh solid uh slip joint.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean you can have something that looks uh beautiful, right? But if it doesn't work and it doesn't then it doesn't work. It's gotta be a functioning knife first. Um but the thing with slip joints that's kind of cool and uh you know extra challenging is you once you've pinned that guy together, uh there's only so many times you can take it apart before it's destroyed. You know what I mean? Um you've got a couple shots at uh taking it apart and putting it back together. And issues crop up that you just don't know. Um every knife that you make is a learning experience. Uh so something'll come up that ha you know hasn't happened before, and you've got to figure it out. It's a it's a an endeavor into problem solving. Um and especially when we're talking about a pinned slip joint, uh that can be very Very unforgiving. As I'm learning, I've started with the modern folders now. There's a lot more of a forgiving aspect there. You can make adjustments here, adjust adjustments there. You're working with screws, you can take it back apart, you can remake apart. And the other parts are still usable. With a slip joint, if you screw it up, you kind of gotta throw it away. Or you know, take it all the way back down to just the spring of the blade and rebuild the frame from from scratch. If uh it could come to a point where your uh spring tension gets too light, or you know, maybe uh your holes are just off enough to that your pin's going in at an angle and it's screwing up your centering. And uh yeah, it's it it could be frustrating, but it is an endeavor and problem solving. It's and it's they're they're challenging, but a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, it I'm I'm reminded kind of of like um there's a lot of uh philosophical um components to knife making, right? I've always I've always just sat there and I probably think more about things when I'm making knives and kind of like um uh I don't know, like the meaning behind stuff. And you know, it it's one of those things where there's lots of things in life that are kind of like the is it like um life at conception, you know, not to like get political, but you know, a a knife, like a slip joint, when you peen it together, that's kind of when it gets its soul. When uh samurai uh swords are being made, it's like during the quench. And when you know potters are uh making a pot, it's when it's fired. You know, there's always these, these it's a paradigm shift where it goes from one thing to very clearly another thing, and there's like nothing you can do uh to go back. And even even still, like um you know, painting something together and then um and then having to break it apart because there was a mistake, really it bec it diminishes the knife um in some in some ways. And you gotta decide, well, I mean, is it better to still wax it and start over, or is there ways that you can fix it? And not not saying it's not uh you know irredeemable, but um I've th I've often thought about that. You know, like fixed blades, there's a lot of things that you can mess up on and it doesn't really matter. Um, you know, I mean, if you if you pay attention to your fit and finish and like all those components, it really is a you know, it just is a a a fixed thing. But in in um the mechanics of pocket knives, especially, there's a lot more that you have to think about and everything kind of plays on each other. I mean, it's like, you know, uh uh Bill Ruppel um is like uh, you know, uh talks a lot about um, you know, doing things in the at the right time, right? Like don't don't do anything that you don't have to until you have to, um basically. And you know, I've thought about that a lot um in my own knife making, even though I spend more time in the fixed blade realm. Um when you apply those concepts of you know you have a process that you kind of uh figure out, and then you you build your efficiencies in in each process to make sure you don't do something too soon or rework things. Um everything has its place and don't do things too soon thinking that you're going to rush through a knife when really you have to focus on one thing at a time uh and build upon the success of the previous step. Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And uh there's you know, you build your your uh your method, but it's uh constantly as you're as you're trying to get better and improve your work and it's you know always trying to shoot for per perfection, always missing short, uh learning things on every build, you know, picking up uh different techniques and it's always evolving. It's a it's an ever-evolving process. Especially, you know, with with I mean I I it's what I make the most, it's what I can relate it to the most, uh slip joints. There's so many things you can do. And just like Tony said, you know, if it's not challenging enough, add a blade. Um things can just go sideways on you very quickly. Uh especially when you start adding a lot of blades and a lot of springs and tiny little parts, and you've got 40 pieces in front of you and you've gotta assemble this thing and you've quadruple measured everything, and you go to pin it together, and it all goes to shit.
SPEAKER_00You you've gotta work on your patience. Yeah. That's kind of like raising children, and then you get down like you know, the you know, the 18-year round uh route or whatever, and they're not exactly the the like the rounded adults you you maybe thought that they would when they were like three or four. You're like, where did I go wrong and how do I fix this? Like, it's well, sorry. You just have you have what you have, you've you've impressed upon them that what you can, and now you you just kind of let them uh figure out how to work out the kinks themselves, maybe sometimes therapy. But um, you know, that's that's the thing, honestly, with your knife making journey uh that has impressed me is that you've been willing to tackle um concepts uh very early into your knife making. So, like, I mean, even early 2017, uh you started uh uh uh checkering bolster or checkering the uh uh handle material and doing things like that. Like, I mean, those are all uh things that a lot of people don't even tackle in their in their knife career, but you're sitting here uh doing some of the best checkering work that um I've seen on knives, period. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I actually started that when I was modifying. And you know, I I was looking at a knife and I was like, man, it would be really cool if this bone was gun stock checkered. I was like, yeah, it can't be that hard. Famous last words. I know. Eight hours later working on the same piece of bone. I'm like, oh my god, what did I do to myself? But then when it comes together, that looks so cool and it feels great in the hand. It is a labor of love. Uh I don't do it that often, but when I do, it is gratifying. And it's therapeutic too. You know, it's you're kind of then working there, carving your lines. Uh and it is, yeah, there is that therapeutic aspect to it, uh, especially when it comes to that checkering.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean, talk about compounding issues, right? So you have all these, like you know, the knife isn't even together yet. And then you decide, oh, hey, let me go ahead and uh and checker this really expensive piece of Westinghouse or Mother Pearl or Ivy or something like that. Let me just make it a little bit more difficult on myself so that way before I bang this thing together, I can totally fail at it.
SPEAKER_03I know. Let me uh just in case this wasn't hard enough, let me potentially screw it all up.
SPEAKER_00That's the way I feel about working with Damascus sometimes. I mean, not that I've I've sat and made Damascus, but you know, I mean, there's like I I'm paying somebody to make Damascus, and I know that they've put a lot of their blood, sweat, and tears in, and they're probably not charging nearly enough. And then I go to try to make something out of it, and I'm like, hmm, you know, I could really screw this up right now. Like it's not something you could just throw away and not shed a tear over.
SPEAKER_02It's like, oh, this knife is almost almost done. Let me dip it in that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's just any number of things that could go wrong. Well, I mean, I mean, look at your shield work too. Like early on, you're doing all freehand shield inlays. That's actually one of the um before I started uh going down the route of panographs, which introduced me to uh Tim Robertson, um, I went I was uh looking for any resources for panograph uh work and in shield inlays. And so I kind of started with parser plates, but I didn't really like the the feel of that. I didn't, you know, it just wasn't for me. And also everybody pretty much that I was looking at that was doing uh parser plates, uh, there was some level of issue with the fit, right? I mean, you could you could tell after everything's been ground down and whatnot that there was like very clear gaps and lines and things, and that there was no real way to hide it. And I was like, I just that's not for me. Then this fool comes around uh and and does it all freehand. I'm like, I can never do that. Like like to me, I it's not it's not that I I don't think that I might could find it in myself to um you know technically do it. I could never tolerate the patience um uh that it would take to do that. And I I mean I watched uh your video on the Apostle P um Rob Bixby, uh, and uh dude, I was like, mad props. Um there's no way, there's no way at all that I would encounter that and and you know spend eons trying to learn technically how to do it and not screw it up and get the results that I wanted. So I spent a little bit of money with Tim and bought a panograph, and I haven't looked back since. I love my panographs.
SPEAKER_03I'll never go back, never in a million years go back to that madness. But it was one of those things where I just didn't know better, right? I wanted to uh um put a shield in, and I didn't have the tools to do it. I had a Dremel and I could set it up in this jig and lower it to a depth. And I got some you know small mill cutters. You know what? Let me trace the shield on the on the handle and carve it off.
SPEAKER_00Don't hit the lines. And well and and then having to go in by hand and remove material and stuff and fit it all up. It's like, dude, like you're you're a glutton for punishment for sure, because that's like I oh yeah, I I would have just been like, uh, you know, I'm just gonna save the money and do it a different way. Um, but you're just like, okay, well, I'm just gonna be bullheaded and do it live. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But uh, you know, I got good at it. So I and it was comfortable by the time you know I switched over to the panograph. I actually had my panograph uh and I hadn't set it up yet leading into blade uh 22. First show I uh came back to after taking my break. Um and I was making a five-blade uh longhorn, which is my kind of version of a cattle knife. Uh most complicated knife I've made up to that point. And I needed to cut a shield into some Blessing House ivory paper. So I'm like, do I want to experiment on the panograph on this or just do it the way I know how to do it and get it done? Uh so that just goes to show you how how comfortable I was with it at that point. I wasn't willing to uh try something that I've come to find out is vastly easier um just to make sure that I did it right for this knife that I was building. Uh yeah. Checkered Westinghouse ivory paper with a custom shield that I freehand cut in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, plus the blades, you know, all that all that stuff. Yeah. Well, um I I think that you know, by doing it the hard way, um, it does it does give you the ability to appreciate uh what kind of tolerances you expect out of a panograph. Because you know, a lot of people think that you know when you set up a panograph that it all just runs magically, and you you can encounter the same issues with gapping, the same issues with your fit, you know, everything. I mean, broken bits and you know, moving parts and everything. And it, you know, it you can easily destroy parts by putting things on a panograph. Like even uh, so I know like Tim has made um like uh a lot of the templates that he uses umself. And I've seen that with a lot of the old timers. Uh Tom uh Overinder does that. Um and when Chris Crawford started doing these 3D printed um templates, I was like, that's great. I don't want to have to hand build these things. However, when I started using his templates, um, I noticed that the the PLA that is printed uh 3D printed or whatever, depending on what your infill is and everything, it kind of has a little bit of a give to it, right? And although it's you know it could be microscopic in some ways, um, if you push too hard on the perimeter of those uh of those templates, then you can actually skew how far the cutter goes into um either the shield itself or the pocket that you create. And you can you can distort it. And you know, there's lots of people that use, I mean, I say lots of people. I mean, in in this niche market of knives and then the niche market of using panographs on slip joints or pocket knives, we're not really talking about a lot, but I've seen quite a few examples of shields um being inlaid and some of the fundamentals of the machinery not being understood. And so there is gapping, there is um mirages of you know dirt and compound and things like that that occur in that, uh, you know, especially on an expense of materials like Mother of Pearl, where it's very not for very forgiving. And you don't, if you don't understand what it is you're looking for, um, then it becomes infinitely harder to get a machine to do that same thing. So in your mind's eye, uh, you need to really be sure of what you're trying to achieve. And then you can kind of like augment a panagraph to do what you want it to. I think that's probably where you benefit um in a lot of ways, because you did it the hard way. And then you're like, oh, a panograph like, you know, properly set up, and if I can get it to do these things, you know, test, test, test, and yeah, bang. Like I've done it in a fraction of the time uh that it would take to hand and lay it. However, yeah, I mean, but you you have to have that um the experience of like what could go wrong in order to augment your tooling to make sure that you get the results that you want. I mean, it's super tight work. Like you can't you can't tell the difference in terms of the fit, but to know that you did that um all by hand before m magnifies um how much expertise and thought process goes into doing it the hard way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it kind of sets a an expectation, right? Um doing it probably the most difficult way possible without, you know, unless you're chiseling the whole thing out by hand. Um you have to be patient and lay everything out exactly. Uh you know, make sure that your shield is centered exactly where you want. Um I mean, I measure one point in the frame and another point in the frame, draw my center line, and I'm you know, it takes time setting it up on the panograph and making timely little minor adjustments to make sure that my shield is perfectly dead centered. And then, you know, you've got to consider uh where you know you're you still have to grind the grind the frame a little bit after that. Uh when you pin it together, you know, things shift around a little bit, uh, and then you've got to clean up the spine, so you're gonna lose a little bit of meat on that side. And uh, you know, where if you've got scale pins, if that pins off and your shield's straight, it's gonna look off. So you've gotta, you know, there's steps that lead into it. Uh that to make it look right in the end, you have to start early on with it. So there's a lot of thought that goes uh into it. Uh and you know, I did that's that's when I had that pantograph in the shop and I didn't use it, I think I was coming up on blade show time, and I knew that I wanted to take my time and learn the machine, uh learn how I wanted to set it up for myself, work out all the kinks and get it get my process dialed in there, do that you know, initial legwork to set myself up for success in the future. So make it a very repeatable streamlined process down the line. Uh but that you know, it takes a lot of patience and forethought and planning out. And I think you're right that that doing it the more difficult way initially that I taught myself how to do kind of laid the groundwork for my methods and how I approach things now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but isn't that true of like your entire experience in knives? So, I mean, so you're modifying knives, started making knives, took a uh uh sabbatical from making knives, and then you come back to it and you're like, you're in a different zone now than I think that you you ever were. But you have to do things the hard way. You have to you have to figure out maybe take a little bit of a break and say, what do I want to do when I grow up? Is it still this thing? And I I that's that's to me a lot of the uh philosophy of knives, like where it kind of like interplays with our human desires is that um sometimes you need a break to gain perspective. And that's what that's what I do. Like sometimes I'll just I have to take some time um out of what I'm doing to get out of my own way and just allow things to progress and you know, figure out is this am I still doing it for the right reasons? Am I still um finding joy in it, you know, and and uh you're an example of that with kind of what you're doing with your production work and uh you know, all of these uh crazy Sheffield builds and stuff like that. I mean, to me, you're you're just in a different zone now that I don't know if you would have been if you didn't do it the hard way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And at the same time, you know, taking a couple years off and then coming back, uh approaching it from a completely different perspective, a different you know, position in my life, uh a lot more comfortable and in a lot more of a stable time in my life. And it let me uh approach it all differently, and I kind of shook off all of the uh previous so I was holding on to a lot of things, just I don't know if it was out of stubbornness or what, but I wouldn't I would refuse to do certain things on my knives. I wanted to stick with uh you know, kind of stay in that traditional box. And I was pushing it a little bit, you know, I'd come up with some new designs, but there were still uh aspects that I I didn't want to uh step out of. Um and when I came back from taking a couple years off, it was uh I kind of just didn't care anymore. I was like, who cares about that? I just I just want to make what I want to make and uh I'm gonna have fun with it. And I don't really care if nobody else likes it. You know what I mean? Uh luckily, you know, that it's been my best work and people have liked that the most. So now I've I the only knives that aren't my design that I make are Sheffield exhibition knives. And they're you know extremely complicated. And I've started designing my own uh spins on those now too. And that's just a lot of fun. Uh I've I I remember the first time I saw that Sheffield exhibition book it blew my mind. Have you have you seen that book? Oh yeah, yeah, it's uh pretty incredible. Oh my gosh. I don't it's incredible to think that they were making those knives, grinding blades on water wheels by candlelight. It's insane. Yeah, I mean there are a handful of people on earth today that could do that. And uh with the machinery that we have today, yeah. I mean, there's still a couple of guys doing it the old school uh Sheffield way, using those old tools, which is incredible. Um but it really that really puts things in perspective as well. Uh there's so much history behind these things. And when you see something like that, where uh you know there's the uh a full a multi-blade folding knife with a mechanical pencil in it, scissors, a saw packed into this tiny little package uh made with super basic stuff. Uh you know it puts things in in perspective. Yeah, you know, for for yourself. It's like man, they're these they're people have been making these things and doing an an incredible job for centuries. And you know, I'm just scratching the surface a little bit. Uh and just seeing how how much of a challenge it is, it really makes you appreciate the history behind it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And you know, um a few things that I've really liked. Um, well, so the the catchbit show has always been a fan favorite of mine. Um I've I've had uh uh Neil Punchard on um to talk, you know, history of knives and things like that. And he's also, you know, yeah, we're just you know, we talk every once in a while. It's been a while um so far, also last year sometime. Um, but um I really appreciated what um they were doing on the catchbit show because it gave me a different perspective and appreciation for just how um just how crazy um and and sometimes novel um the knives that ended up surviving um have been, right? And um I had Grace Horn on and she was talking about she said there was an instance where the grinders and the uh the Smiths, I guess, uh got into a feud. And so the Smiths or whatever um put uh gunpowder in the emory wheels uh of the of the grinders, and then uh they ended up being an explosion. I think like six or eight people died um from it. And to think to think, you know, you have this entire culture of knives in Sheffield and everything, and you have all the all this stuff happening, and then you still have all the the workplace politics and stuff. Um, you know, we we were talking about like you know, the schisms and the guild and and you know different, you know, you know, pettiness in in knives, uh, and it's never gotten as bad as murder for sure. And you kind of have to put that in perspective. It's like what what were these people dealing with at the same time that they were you know making these what what we now consider works of art and um and all all these different configurations and things? Like um, you know, I know that they were talking about when you're doing these replications um uh on these old night knife patterns and stuff, you really only have catalogs to go off of, which have images on them. And uh the images uh are not are deceptive in some ways because what you see on the image is uh might be an artistic rendition of a knife that's pretty close to it, but non-functional if you think about the geometry. So as a knife maker, you want to replicate that stuff and you don't have an actual example of the piece, you have to do a lot of um thinking about how everything's supposed to go together. I can't imagine trying to take something that you don't actually have a um an example that you can take apart and to just go off of images and try to you know kind of make it-ish the way that it's supposed to work. Uh to me, all of that um the the I I can't even really say it's reproduction at that point. It it really is a a modern um um a modern reimagining of a of a traditional, you know, a traditional slip joint or whatever. To me, it's like I don't know if I'd ever be the kind of caliber of maker that that would uh would be able to do that.
SPEAKER_03Well, it takes a certain level of crazy, but um it is like a modern rendition of it, right? Because that there is a lot of guesswork. Uh some of them now, you know, I've seen the guts of knives that that aren't the same knife that I'm making, but that I can apply certain mechanisms to, right? Like different uh Y-shaped springs and uh fork springs and uh Z-shaped springs that'll work for certain things and uh but getting certain tolerances right, uh getting things to fit together right that that you know I I have to redesign it kind of from scratch. So if if I have a catalog picture, I can upload it into my design program. So then I just have the profile of an opened knife and I've got where I see how many pins are in it, right? Um so okay, I've got a starting point. But then I've got to build everything inside and make sure everything fits. And sometimes I don't even have multiple pictures of it. Uh so it's like you've got two pictures of this knife, you see what the parts are, you know, sometimes not all the blades are open. There's they're in the description. So it's like, okay, there's got this is the only place that can be. So that adds another element. It's like, man. All right. So but that's a lot of the fun of it too. Um there's so out one of them that I built based uh out of that book was a well, it was a three-layer sportsman that I made, and it was actually kind of a combination of a couple that were on a page in the book. There's like five or six of them in there. I took aspects from a few of them that kind of combined it into my ideal sportsman for that specific pattern. The size, the blade combinations and the features on it. You know, the this was one that had um checkered ivory handles. I used checkered ivory Westinghouse paper handles. Uh so that was even something else that I could apply out of my you know kind of wheelhouse of techniques to that to get just give it a extra little bit of you know me to it. Um but I was you know, that there was still a lot of guesswork to be done. Um but I was able to find a sportsman on eBay for pretty cheap. Uh and when I got it, I immediately understood the how it worked just by seeing how the spring sat. I didn't take it apart, I still have it in my drawer. Uh so that was like, man, this would be so much easier if I had these. And the knife that I'm making for Atlanta, or I'm I'm attempting to make for Atlanta, I've been staring at this thing in the book for about two years, knowing that I'm planning on making it for this show. And I just had no idea how it worked. I was like, okay, I'm thinking through it. Like, okay, uh normally it would work like this, but then there's this extra element. So that completely disables that mechanism. So there's gotta be something else that works in there. And then I found these pictures of of one of the knives in the book. It's on, I think it's on Gunbroker, and it showed a picture down into the blade well. And I was like, oh, okay. So that lets me figure out a little bit more, just another little piece of the puzzle. And then when I was in Texas, uh Paul Farina hands me this bag of Sheffield knives, and he's like, just sort through that. I'm going through it, going through it, and I pulled this knife out. I'm like, oh man, this is so cool. This big old knife, and I'm turning it around in my hand, and I'm like, oh, oh, sweet. And then there's one little aspect of it. It's got a pair of scissors under the scale. And when I saw that, it clicked in my head. I was like, I'm holding the knife, I'm holding the knife that I'm planning on building in a couple months. Like, oh my god, I'm never gonna have it, you know. I just got so excited about it. And I was like, Paul, please let me bring this home with me. And he's like, Yeah, just give it back to me in Atlanta.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, this makes my life so much easier.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But, you know, uh, and then just seeing this and little details and aspects of what they put into this knife that you just don't see nowadays. So it's a multi-blade with a lock back, right? And it's three layers on the back half, and then the lock bar and the main blade, right? On the on the as the main as yeah, as the main blade, but the the so the three layers run parallel, and then the lock bar tapers down, and they just squeezed this thing together. So it goes from about 0.3 to 0.2 of an inch in about two inches. And it's got this this this piece has a five-inch piece of stag. And the last two inches of the knife, it's it tapers down a tenth of an inch. But they just squeezed it. There's you know, that's not carved into it. I don't know what method they used. I know they used to flatten stag, but it's just something you don't see anymore. Like this large, nice piece of stag, and it's just, you know, tapered and squeezed in the middle of the knife.
SPEAKER_00And it's like, ha how do you do that? Yeah. Well, I mean, uh I you know, I can only imagine that it was just a a product of the time and necessity, right? Like, I mean, it's it's hard. Uh Neil could probably speak more of this or Grace about um about some of the uh build specifications and things. I know that when she's uh which uh Grace has uh talked about uh uh like the uh schematics or you know uh draftings and things like that for dimensions that they would use shorthand and stuff too. So you have to decipher what exactly all those things mean. But I had bought this old Hankel um uh sleeve board um Whittler, basically. I mean, it's very small. It's the only example I I I found of it, and I took it apart because I really wanted to understand exactly why um they did it the way that they did. So I mean it wasn't super expensive, but now I kind of regret um breaking it apart. But the um the what they did with the springs is they they tapered the springs. Like they they'd forged uh taper into the springs in order to be able to get the dimensions that they were looking for from front to back. And uh they did it on very, very small blades. Like, I mean, this thing is a like a miniature uh sleeve board. And one day I'll make it. Like I'm working on uh on uh getting a pattern and everything like that off of it. But it's uh it's crazy to think, you know, like how flippantly they address certain problems. They're just like, uh, you know, like a master cutler is probably just like, okay, well, this is just baked into design. We're going to have to do this thing. The you know, the uh forgers did it, the grinders did their thing, and then collectively it got put together and you know, it worked, right?
SPEAKER_03It's nuts. It's like, yeah, just beat that side of the spring a little harder than the other. Uh, that looks good. All right, slap it together. Let's go. It's like, how did you do this? And they forged all these parts. You know, I mean, we're working with stock removal and mills and uh bandsaws and drill, you know, uh uh drill presses and grinders. They're just forging these things, forging the tangs on these knives, and they're still working today incredibly well. It's mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I mean, and I think I think too, like if we if we think about the price point, everything they're doing it for, um, I mean, those knives, those knives were not like incredibly expensive, uh, some of them, but they still had the same uh quality of fit and finish, and a lot of like really what we would consider techniques that um if you did it in a in a small shop today, it would take so much time. Like it's uh it's almost almost to the point where it makes it uneconomical to make it. Um yet they they did it in a production setting and everybody kind of just you know went along with it. And we get to we get to kind of be historians and um and archaeologists uh to a certain extent to be able to take these things and to um at least figure them out and understand it. And and I I think it takes a a lot of uh a lot of want to to research this stuff and try to connect the dots on why these things are important. But I have a lot of respect and a lot of appreciation for um knife making in Sheffield and early knife making in uh you know the United States and kind of how all of that sprung up and kind of where we're at today. I mean, uh, you know, a perfect example is uh, you know, jigging bone, like the uh K-bar roof line uh stuff. I mean, I've I I have not seen really any examples of anyone else demonstrating how to do that, yet you you have done that and and showed everybody how to, you know, think about it, you know. And and that's something that I know that there was an example of a a customer and good friend of Tony's uh that shared pictures that he shared with him on how to do roofline. But it just even the pictures, it doesn't it doesn't do justice to like how difficult it is to think about the geometry of it and then how to um how to jig it appropriately and then get into that final form that looks the way that it should.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's it's tricky. Um and to get that that ridge, you know, there's a lot there's that was a fun endeavor because I I'd messed around with different jigging techniques and getting different patterns down and trying new stuff, but having that ridge that then flows into a nicely curved bolster adds that different element. And then lining all those uh uh all those notches up properly having them look uniform, it it really adds just an extra little something to it that you don't see very often. Uh I that's not my favorite jigging. I love that stuff. And that was inspired by Tony. When I saw that on a knife of his, I was like, man, that's cool. That is so cool. I've got to go home and do that.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I mean, and then and then to think about like I mean the same same way uh that you were doing shield inlays by hand, you know, the the the the people who are doing the jigging and everything probably just did it all freehand and by eye. You know, they did it so many, you know, tens of thousands of times that uh it just became second nature to them. But to get that replicated, I mean, there's a lot of layout that's required to get it right and to make it look the way that it should look.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um as you the more you do it. Like when I first started doing it, I was drawing lines and mapping everything out. Now it's just kind of all right, let me wing it. Let's see. You know, I've kind of gotten used to how to how to do it and how it's gonna fit together. Um and the kind the lines kind of there's they're only helpful to a point because as you're as you're jigging it, bone dust is covering them constantly. So uh you can only see them for so much unless you take the time and have to wipe it every time before you jig the next notch and paying attention to stuff. So it does uh there is like uh muscle memory to it. And I'm sure if your job is to jig a bone and that's all you do every day and you've been doing it for 10 years, you're probably pretty good at doing it fast. Especially, yeah, exactly. Like how how inexpensive those knives were, but um and just how nice they came out. They were all masters at their crafts. At each individual you know, each individual job that they had, they were absolute masters at it. And that that that that that helps when you've got a team of masters working on a really complicated knife, that's like uh you know something that you don't see today that that doesn't exist, to my knowledge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and we're we're also kind of in this um we're in it we're in like an artistic era where uh sole authorship is really is very heavily uh valued over teamwork. And so, you know, I mean you kind of you kind of miss out on on some of that. Um but I mean, even still, if I want to take really great handle material from one maker and you know something like really great damascus from another maker and everything, the the cost of combining that all together is uneconomical for the um for you know producing something and then selling it too. I mean, I mean, think about it. If you were to do Damascus on all of your blades and then to, you know, have some really crazy um handle materials, you know, not only rare, but then there's something really crazy technique-wise that's being done with it. I mean, you can have thousands of dollars in just the cost of the blade, and then you know, to try to sell that and everything to recoup uh um somewhat of the material, uh, let alone the time, uh, to me is like it's pretty difficult. So I mean it really comes down to uh do doing things and exploring things um out of the love of it uh more than the actual monetary value of things that you can get out of it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh but you know that that adds value to it in and of itself, right? The because you it's reflected in your work, right? Um the pat and your passion for it, the time you spent attempting to perfect it. It shows. So that and that just kind of, you know, when when people recognize that in the work, it does add value. Uh and I think that is part of that um where that soul authorship is sought after. It's just like if you're making your own Damascus and you're doing every little step on this complicated folding knife or whatever, the amount of knowledge that you have to have and experience to lead to that point, there's value in that, you know. Even though uh you know, you might be able to build a knife quickly, it's there's years and years leading up to that point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, and I um you know, something I I mean, I you know, I work in IT, cybersecurity stuff, everything like that. Um, you know, I build businesses, I've been part of like startup um startups for forever, really. Um and one of the things that's talked about very regularly in us the startup culture of business is value. Proposition, right? Like um how how do you quantify the value of something when people don't just like when it's not intrinsic, right? Um, how do you convince somebody that something is worth their their time and their money and to use? And so ideas oftentimes you you evaluate those uh based on their value proposition. And um it it really gets um kind of weird in the the art world uh because there's no way to really quantify the value of time. Like you, you and I, um the the the things that we have in common is that you know, our on our headstones, there's a start date and an end date, right? And what we do with that in between is really what uh differentiates us. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter about a lot of other things, you know, uh, but what we do with that time. And time is something that you just um you can't really quantify. So when I look at stuff like these um really crazy builds and and everything, I I really I really think about the time that somebody put into it. Because if that's the most valuable thing that you have and it is finite, um what did a person produce? It's kind of one of the areas where, you know, when I see somebody make like a knife-shaped object or shanky type of knives or whatever, it's it's not that I respect them less, but I think that they could do a lot more. Like I see the potential in people to, you know, push beyond themselves and do something that's interesting. Um, but it's the same way with our lives. Like, I mean, you can be a crappy dad if you want to, or you can be the kind of dad that um your kids, you know, they don't want that end date to come too soon. They want you, you know, they want to relish you and they and they they are empowered by you and things. And it's the same way with like knives. You know, somebody holds your knife, they want to look at your knife in their hand and say, this person really just hit these these elements and they think about it. And that's where I kind of think that we we do have to evaluate um the craft of knife making and everything as an art form and evaluate things based on the time and energy and and you know uh ideas that people are bringing to the table because those to me are very interesting. Um something that you know you slap ivory on and it looks really crappy, but it has, you know, a five or six hundred dollar set of ivory on it, that doesn't make it more valuable to me. Um stuff like you're doing, stuff where you're really pushing the uh limits of what you personally can bring to the uh the craft, that is very interesting. And that's why your knives are invaluable is because you're willing to invest something that really has no value. There's no way to quantify it.
SPEAKER_03Uh no, I appreciate it. Yeah, I mean yeah, I I've I've always said that you know the uh the materials and kind of the the flashiness or uh is is the last thing that I consider on a knife. I would rather see something basic with basic materials that are just executed very, very well over something that's sloppy with uh you know a thousand dollars worth of material on it. That that almost feels like a waste at times, you know what I mean? Um like you're trying to walk before I mean run before you can walk. Uh build off those fundamentals and uh work on the little things, and it it shows, it shows in the work. And uh you know, kind of going circling back to that um uh you reminded me of of what another aspect of doing this that I that I love so much. It's uh I don't know how uh how similar it is to other uh you know knife making communities, but in slip joints in particular uh makers are really tight and we help each other out as much as we can by sharing knowledge, uh building people up and uh kind of uh keeping the craft alive. And it's really encouraged to share uh what you've learned, share your techniques, help somebody that's that's starting out uh and um not hold back stuff to to to uh give yourself the you know the advantage over uh you know your quote unquote competition. Yeah, we might be in competition, but we share with each other all the time. Like we want to kind of play on e on equal footing in this. Um and it's just it's really cool. That's that's I really love the the community around it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um yeah, and I I think I've seen it um well, let me put it this way. Um I believe in that. Um I have also seen uh a lot of like the non-positive sides of knife making where those, you know, the gate the gatekeeping happens and the discouragement and everything. Um what I choose to promote is that like man, I cannot affect um gatekeepers. I can't, I I can't um I can't make their minds up for them, but I won't do it. Um it's it's uh I don't want anybody to think that when I have guests on the podcast that I'm gatekeeping because you know I'm not able to give everybody you know the the voice and the time and everything like that. Like I don't like that. I mean, I grew up really poor and I was told that I'd be like, you know, mountain trailer trash in the Appalachians and stuff. You know, there's the kind of this expectation that you're really not supposed to expect a whole lot out of life because you're just you know a dumb hillbilly. And I I pushed really, really hard off of that and um and uh made a decision to separate myself from the mentality that I could not do. Um, and so, you know, um pretty much everything that I do in life is a matter of saying, well, what is the voice inside of myself that says I um you I can't do something, give myself a little bit of uh grace and forgiveness, and then try to do that thing uh to prove myself wrong. It's it's really like I've kind of passed those people behind um that uh used to you know insinuate that I wasn't worth anything and now have have moved into a realm where I am my own worst critic. Uh and uh you know, I I don't do gatekeeping. Um I try to be uh fair and equitable, but I also have a way that I think about things too. Um and I I think it's important uh to give encouragement when it's appropriate and temper that. Like that's that's kind of one of the things like I've I've learned about some knife makers is uh you know, there's obviously paying your dues that's important. You you put but you pay your dues in the way that you experience making things and doing things, and that is a personal um journey. Another knife maker cannot um adequately quant uh quantify what paying dues means, right? Um you you've you've you've paid your dues, like you've learned things the hard way, you've learned things your way, you've gone through uh trials and tribulations, and you have reevaluated um how exactly knives um uh acts as a medium for self-expression. And so now you're kind of at a um not a genesist because I think you have a lot more things to add. Like you're just kind of scratching the surface on it, but you've already like you're like an iceberg. Like what you see, like what people see uh in your creative sense is really only, like I'm sure, only um the top 10% or 20% of what you really have going on and all these things that you want to accomplish with it. Um, and who am I uh as a as a fellow knife maker or somebody who appreciates the craft or anything like that, to you know, poo in your Cheerios and tell you that you can't do something. Like I'm just kind of like, you know, like if I ever had a say or if I ever had an opinion, it would be, dude, like like figure it out, you know, do those things. Like the only thing that you can do is fail, and then you you know, try to fail less. And I I I try to be encouraging with that. And it's something that I get kind of mixed. Like I haven't always had the best experiences with uh uh some knife makers on being gatekeepers. And um, it's something that I think we uh we need to be mindful of that, you know, our encouragement um can be the thing that really uh pushes people to uh figure out their own lives and their own selves. Like being that support system is very, very important to like just to pe just to people. It's just a a human condition that you want to know that you're loved and that you're safe in some ways and that your ideas matter and that you know your failures are forgivable. Um that's kind of why like I know, like I get kind of esoteric about knives, but really I just spent a lot of time thinking about uh the parallels that I've experienced in knives and how that's applied to my life. And you know, at some point in time, you just gotta say, screw everybody else. Like if their if their opinions are distasteful, then you kind of gotta just gotta do your own thing and try your own thing and see whether it pans out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um I've and I'm I mean, I'm sure knife making has uh played a big part in this, but I've adopted a really stoic attitude to things where you know don't worry about the externals, right? Uh and that that's about that's the attitude I approached this when I came back to making knives. And I think that's why I'm enjoying it so much more and why I think my work's so much better than it was. Uh even after not touching a tool in my shop for two years straight. Um it it removes that element from your craft and it lets your artistic capabilities flow. Um you know, it it any of that, you know, judgment that you've felt from other people or anything like that is is eliminated. Um and you can focus on what you can do and you know shit happens in life, but it helps you overcome that as well. And that's part of what I what really draws me to these complicated knives. Um they you know, I could not make them and you know crank out single blades and make more money, but uh I'm really passionate about it. And part of it is that challenge, uh overcoming these obstacles and pushing myself forward. And if it wasn't for you know, people like Tony when I was starting out, I mean Tony played a big part in this, but with his encouragement uh and uh you know the little bit of mentorship that he gave me, it was really impactful, really impactful. Um and it you know, it it uh helped me want to push myself and continue pushing myself and then you know drag people along with me, you know what I mean? The one thing you said, you know, the only thing I ask is that you pass it on, that you uh you know, you pass it on to uh other people. Um and I'd love sharing what I know, uh helping people out when I see, you know. And there's you know there's only so much that you can do. I've learned to try to not spread myself out too thin, but I'm there to help if somebody needs it. With if you know if I'm if I'm able, I've got responsibilities. I've got a family and kids, and there's only so much that I can do, but I will take the time to help and share my knowledge and share what I've learned from other guys and because I I I know what it did for me. Um and there's gratification in that. So it is you know, there it is a little bit self-serving, and another aspect is that if you've got to teach somebody something, you you it you're you're reinforcing it in yourself. So in order to thoroughly and properly explain something to somebody, you've got to have a very good understanding of it. Um so you're uh kind of reinforcing your understanding of what you do when you're teaching somebody else, which is cool. So it's you are getting something out of it, but I think what you're giving is so much more, you know it's so valuable to somebody that it I mean in a way that it is hard to quantify, right? Because it is on a person by person basis and experience by experience basis. Um that's how you keep it alive, man. You you have to do it, right? That's I I feel like uh it's an obligation. But you know, everybody's their own person, so people are gonna act the way they want to act, and that's out of our control. We just have to do what what we think is right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Well, yeah, and I I I agree. I mean, um there's definitely I I think that self-esteem, like the the the love of oneself and uh life energy and everything like that is a place where um it's it's like a wellspring of stability. Um and I I I think that there's a lot of chaos in uh in a world where uh people don't understand their own worth. And I think that that's like a maturity thing. Like some people get it earlier than others. Um, some people toil with it all the time. And um when I think about uh the help that I can give other people, um, maybe I'm sacrifice a little bit of my time. Um maybe it is valuable to me, but there's times when I feel like it's the same thing with like, you know, giving giving homeless people money. Uh sometimes you're like, man, like I mean, what is this $20 to me? I'm just going to waste it on a Netflix subscription. Like it really means like mm almost nothing. Uh, but for somebody else, it could be life-saving. Um, you know, the ideas that you share um are some things that you those those are uh those are peaks that you've already conquered, right? I mean, how hard is it to share that with uh with somebody else and allow them to figure out how do you climb it? Like, I mean, I could tell you how to climb Mount Everest, um, although, you know, functionally I can't, um, but I could tell you uh uh how to climb it, uh, but you have to be the one to do it. And that's that's that's an important part of um of you know sharing knowledge and uh being a good mentor and a good supporter that I think uh you know we have to think about collectively. Um you know, I'm kind of reminded I I experienced this like uh I was I got raked uh in my divorce and everything like that, and had a kid and whatnot. So like financially it was like really difficult. Um and uh at some point in time I was like, you know, like the answer really is not that I'm trying to look for justice or like an equal playing field or that you know the the system was fair. Um I'm just like I just gotta make more money. And when you when you start like when you start breaking down your barriers and just say, I need to do these things in order to achieve what I wanted to, you know, that extra child support money that you know was maybe not necessary, but also you know, the courts awarded it. I don't care. Like I'm I don't care if you're being unfair to your dad. Um I'm just gonna make more money and try to like balance things out. You're not going to stop me by, you know, keep like you can't keep me down. And I think that's the difference between like uh you know being victimized and having a victim's mentality. It's the same way with information. Like, you know, you have to really evaluate um what are the gatekeepers. And really the largest gatekeeper is the one that sits between your ears. Um it's that it's you know, it's that mind that tells you that you can't versus you know, you're just playing around with it and figure it out. And I'm more than happy, like I I don't have the role of decks and knowledge that everybody does, but uh in the ways that I can, I'm more than happy to share it. And that's kind of um that's really something that I do like about knives, though, is that by and large, um, even with the fringe that are uh trying to um uh keep or um have some control or whatever, that uh the m the majority know what that struggle feels like and try to do things to correct it and to be um receptive towards um people who are just seeking knowledge because they know that you know giving giving somebody an idea is only uh half the battle. You still gotta kind of you know take that adventure yourself and make something out of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You're right. I mean, I got to experience that a little bit um last month when I went up to Jersey City for the Arts and Metal show. And uh Thursday morning before the show, uh I was hanging out in the lobby and uh here comes Wolfgang Lorschner and Michael Walker. We were sitting there just talking and you know, shooting the shit, and they were just like super humble, awesome, uh nice guys, and it's like I'm sitting amongst legends right now. If anybody can have an ego about their their work, it's these two guys, right? But none of that was there. They're just like cool, normal guys, uh happy to share knowledge, to talk about stuff, and it was really cool. Um so yeah, I mean that that I love that about this game, the you know, the knife quote unquote community. Um yeah, I I mean that's if if that was different, because I have seen you know uh had other hobbies and done other stuff where the attitude is a lot more gatekeepy, if that's even a word. Um people are gonna hold things, hold their cards tight, you know. I forget what to say. I don't know. My brain's fried. But uh you know, they you're not willing to share the knowledge and there's it's so much colder. Um and you know when when like uh knife making it's it it means so much to me because of you know as a creative outlet, it it ticks so many boxes for me uh as a as an individual. You know, it's it is my artistic creative outlet. I get to build things. There's the mechanics behind it that I that I can consider. I really love it. Um but the community around it is just that extra layer of awesome uh that makes it that much more enjoyable. Uh I I before I was uh got into knives, I was doing I would I would go to a bunch of trade shows for technology stuff and you know some of them are in the same uh uh facilities that we go to. those nice shows at and it's the vibe is completely different. Completely different. It's all competition, just cold business. And it's not fun at all. You know, some people are, you know, people that you've seen before and you're friendly, but it's not not it's nothing like like like this. Um you know I've made really lifelong friends doing this stuff. And I don't know, man. It's it's special.
SPEAKER_00Well yeah. Yeah I mean like in corporate America um and a lot and even crafts um there's there's corporate espionage and sabotage and uh a lot of um uh foul mouthing right I mean it's like uh yeah I mean being an IT still and everything um you you have to watch your back because you're you're in a room with a bunch of sharks um or at least people that think they are and you know you gotta you gotta treat stuff like that like uh water on a duck's back you just gotta like let it fall right off of you and um that's that's where um I think that uh it's been a really great experience being um part of this podcast and everything because you know the the reality is is I kind of have to chuckle because you know I've I mean I've had Bruce Bump and uh Steve Johnson um uh you know just a you know Gracehorn Delena people like that I think that by and large most craftsmen have some type of imposter syndrome you know like they think that it's like wait until people figure out that what I'm doing isn't really that great and and you know it's like at what point in time does that uh bubble pop. But I think that that's part of why like when you have that freedom to say, you know, like we'll we'll just wait and see um uh if people notice that I kind of tricked them with this thing or that it was um maybe I don't find it super difficult. And then I'm sitting here like talking to people like your you know yourself and all these other you know great knife makers. And I'm like, dude, like it it's probably not that uh people will figure out that you're an imposter. It's that you just you know you think of things in a way that I can only I can only describe as a human experience. That kind of stuff interests me because you know you're not one dimensional like you think of like we can all be seeing the same dress but it's different colors. And I really like that. I like that people you know that that come to the table and just say hmm like this is maybe how like I would approach it uh but you know these are like a multitude of other ways that you might think of it. And uh you know you're talking about some grates in in knives and being able to uh uh you know shoot it with them and I found that to be the case with a lot of knife shows too uh like especially like the one thing I really like about Atlanta is the pit. Um if I if I just went as a um uh uh not a non-exhibitor you know like a uh showgoer um I would just want to be able to chill out and go see everybody's stuff and to go to the pit and be able to um talk through things like I met Ken Onion at Blade Atlanta super super nice guy I mean you know somebody who's done like crazy stuff inside of the world of production knives and you know CNC when everybody was saying you know you shouldn't do that or it's cheating. You know, like these um pioneers in knives um I sat I I the relationship that I had with Steve Johnson is that I sat um right next to him or you know he was behind me technically um at uh Atlanta and we you know started talking and everything and I got to know him uh pretty well in that sp like that span of time. And you know I you you just don't really get that the same way. Like I mean it's a production to go to people's shops um because when they're at their shops, they're really you know uh nose to the grindstone as it were and everything. Um but you do get a different experience when you're at shows and when you're doing the um uh the community uh work I guess in shows and to me I've I've always enjoyed it I've never I've never been to a show that if I you know remove the sales uh component of you know trying to um make back the money that I invested in it. If I just take it for the experience I've always really loved it making making your money back is like the worst part about it's the hardest too. You know like um what's what's funny is like there's there's like some old timers would tell me well if you uh if you don't sell a a knife on your uh on the first day then you have to go back to your you know room or whatever and look take a good hard look in the mirror and I'm like what an unfair way of treating uh a show where the monetary aspect of it is the is the first point. Now I would love to be able to sell enough knives to recoup a a show but if I remove that as a single barrier for me, the rest of everything I super enjoy. And so I just don't I try not to think about it too much. I just go to enjoy the experience and to kind of you know feel out whether that's my kind of scene and everything. And uh I can't really say that I've I've been to a bad show if if I've taken the sales out of it. But you know there's another aspect obviously that we always have to think about is the economy of making things. I mean you know that more uh as a full-time knife maker is that sometimes it's a lot of uh feast and famine and mostly famine yeah um yeah for sure I mean it's it's you know like we're as knife makers we're we're in business for ourselves too so it's a hundred percent on us uh it can be tough for sure for sure it could be tough but um yeah like we like you were saying I mean if if uh anybody listening hasn't been to uh a knife show and you're you know passionate about knives go it's so worth it take the time to go to a show meet some like minded people that are into the same stuff as you are there's you know everyday life stuff goes out the window politics whatever you know where you come from none of that matters it's you know you you've you've got this thing in common and you're already you know part of that part of it and it's so welcoming too it's so welcoming they're they're a lot of fun a lot a lot of fun um I wanted to talk to you a little bit about these uh honeycomb liners that you have that you've been putting on your knives like what is that like I mean is that some is that material that you buy or do you actually produce that no that is uh this circles back to the gatekeeping conversation because I I do that with my laser um I got a laser uh when was it like late fall early winter of 22 and just started messing around with it and when I went to go look for information on it on the internet nobody wants to share anything there's uh barely anything out there uh you know there's some forums and stuff but there isn't like easily accessible information on how to do certain things um so I just did a lot of experimenting and I'm just scratching the surface with the laser and I love this thing.
SPEAKER_03I bought it for uh marking you know my maker's mark on my blades. Uh I saw Jared Oser's uh maker's mark he showed me he's like yeah dude I did this with a laser I was like that's the cleanest mark I've seen that thing looks great that alone is worth it uh to take remove the stress of trying to stamp a blade and not all the issues that can come with that as your surface grinding or you know the amount of stress that you put on on the steel before heat treatment and that that causes warping and twisting and it's it you know it eliminates all of that. And then I was like what else can I do with it? Well I bet you I could do something on the inside of the liners that would look really cool instead of engine turning let me see if I could do that. And then you know uh and then I started applying it to other things that would uh that I'd come across in some of these more complicated builds for example uh doing like a a super thin Sheffield long pull they're really really thin and any of the keyway cutters like I bought I got a smaller keyway cutter to try to get closer to it and it was just like four times thicker than I wanted it to and I was like you know what let me try cutting it out with a laser. Let's see what that does. And it worked. And I was like that's really cool. And then you know I had a nail file I had to make uh on this manicure tool where it's basically two long pull so it's like two little channels and inside of those channels are nail it's a nail file. I'm like how am I gonna do that? So I started researching a little bit on that and I'm like I I don't whatever I try to do it is not going to look like what they did back then because they would stamp them in um and I'm just not gonna be able to do that on you know powdered stainless steel um and then it dawned on me like let me see if I could do this on the laser started messing around with that uh and made a super clean uh nail file that you know sat in uh in uh like a long pole basically um and then I made an actual five nail file for the other side of the blade where before I was cutting that on the mill before heat treatment. So all of these cool different applications and now I've started uh experimenting with you know I was like well now I've I've got this tool that I could use this with that that I can break out of the box of what I know as an opening mechanism for a slip joint. Let me make a different shape for the long pole. Who says I can't do that, right? All right so I've got this shape. All right let me add some more elements to it. Let me make some lines in there and some cool details. So like it's a lot of fun. It's they're really really cool. And another great thing about them is uh I lay my parts out on my steel with the laser before uh cutting them out instead of uh you know edit sticky paper it's a game changer it's awesome so I can set kind of pilot holes where all I have to do is you know find it with my punch and go down is exactly how it was on my design uh I don't have to worry about the paper coming unstuck because of the heat from the pan saw or as I'm grinding the profile and you know that shifting around and I mean that mark is there and it's not deep enough where you know it's it's gonna become an issue down the line but it it's it doesn't go away which is great. I'm having a lot of fun with that and I think there's so much more to do with it. So that's kind of a cool you know introduction of new technology into a a really old craft that's allowing me to uh push the boundaries a little bit more on this. Um and that you know that's something we were talking about before where I was kind of stuck in this box of what I'm supposed to do as a traditional knife maker uh that I've broken out of and since I did that I've embraced doing things like using the laser for cool honeycombs on the inside of the liners that's not traditional at all but it looks cool and I like it and it's had a really good you know it's been received really well so um I think that that change in my attitude in how I make stuff and making stuff that I like not trying to chase the market right I think that that's uh that's something about knives that that's kind of unique it's it's really hard if not impossible to predict where it's gonna go um trying to chase a trend by the time you uh hit it the trend's already shifted to something completely different and you can't really predict uh where it's going right and that's something I'm learning on the production side as well uh even just something as simple as handle material like okay I'm gonna pick black canvas micarta that is like a staple that will always be popular guess what black canvas micarta is not popular you know what I mean it's like how the how how could you have seen that coming like carbon fibers back in carbon fiber was dead a couple of years ago now it's hot again like where are these you just don't know where these trends are going to go so you just have to do what you want to do.
SPEAKER_00Uh and it takes stress out of it too yeah well I mean so the the honeycomb man what what I I think is uh really cool about it is the dimensionality uh so you have you have basically a hologram um uh geometry and everything to it it reminds me of like the days when I used to collect baseball cards or things like that um where you know you get the foil and everything and it's just like oh man like it's eye catching. But then to realize that for the most part when you put that thing together you you don't really get the most access to it to see all that cool geometry. But you know you just get a little peek. You know it's a you know you have the blade open and it's just you know it's there and it's it's like that card that you know that you'll you won't be able to like uh uh handle too much but you know that it's there and uh some of those things are really cool like the um uh I can't remember it's the sleeve board uh that you did last year and where you get to see yep uh the the uh pockets where the uh punch and the and the corkscrew come out and you and you do get to see there's a little honeycomb peeking out there. To me it's a touch of modern that is just kind of like super rad, dude. Like I can't tell you how much I like those kind of things. Yeah thanks.
SPEAKER_03And it was funny I mean this kind of goes back to what you were talking about with the imposter syndrome and it's it's almost like you know you're waiting for people to figure out that you're just kind of flying by the seat of your pants and making this stuff up as you go along I had no idea that those honeycombs were going to come out with that kind of depth and geometry tool. That's just how the laser cut it with the settings that I put in I had no clue. When that thing came off the laser I was like that is way cooler than I could have ever imagined it I was just hoping for you know honeycombs on there I didn't know they were going to come where where the light's going to hit it from different angles and they're gonna change color. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah just a just a happy guy yeah um I'm interested to know like um on titanium liners if you do the same thing and you apply different laser um intensities for a temperature that you can not only have the same effect but then also have different color spectrum uh spectrums based on the temperature that you can achieve with uh hitting titanium and those angles and and intensities yeah so there are I've got a pretty cheap laser um it is a 50 watt but I think it has something to do with uh the part part of this laser doesn't give me that color range um I can get uh like a couple little variances here and there uh but it's not to the point where I can get those awesome anodized laser colors that you've seen on stuff uh that'll be you know when when it comes time to upgrade I guess um so I do do that on the titanium and uh something because so I'm kind of I'm I'm newer to working with titanium.
SPEAKER_03I've just started doing uh uh stuff with titanium I think the first knife I ever used titanium on was last year for Atlanta and then I didn't use it again for a while um until I played Texas this uh late February and at that point I've started uh I started I added screws to some of my knives and I started using titanium liners which was fun um you know in anodizing stuff and with the honeycomb a cool element that I discovered as I was going along was when I would anodize the titanium a different color the honeycomb would change color too and I was like well that's really cool so like I would anidize a liner bronze and then the honeycomb would turn purple. I'm like that is that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00I had no idea that was gonna happen yeah yeah I mean man there's there's so many different things that uh uh that can contribute towards an aesthetic um or like an um emotion that's evoked um I saw I got the you know in Texas we're pretty much lawless now um like we get a have like carry around swords and brass knuckles and all sorts of stuff and there's um I think it's hot metal works uh down in South Texas they make uh some really great uh fairly lightweight titanium um nucks and and they have a they have a a process where they take that thing and it's heated up um to like I don't know like red hot and then they dip it in like myriadic acid and uh the uh the reaction that occurs with the acid and the heat makes these crazy spider webs and everything of just like all sorts of different colors. Is that that like lightning strike stuff it's like yeah all it it's basically just captures the turbulence that occurs by adding really hot titanium to acid.
SPEAKER_02I don't know that I would who came up with dangerously let me see what'll happen if I throw this red hot piece of titanium into this acid.
SPEAKER_00I'm sure that's gonna go yeah well I mean it looks super awesome it costs a little bit like quite a bit more uh for that finish uh but man it makes a world of difference I think I I think I got like a mononuck for my wife that has that on it I can't remember maybe not um but we but I we both bought some and I was like man that's another element of shows where I I I love hate it because I always like any money that I make I usually end up either buying handle material or buying other cool things that I see around whether it's you know uh you know a a knife that I you know I've been wanting to collect like an antique or a maker or whatever I'll probably never actually walk out of a knife show uh having any money to my name uh because I always find things that just inspire me whether it's like a as a collector or as if it's as uh something I can use in my work.
SPEAKER_03Um I'm I'm always reminded of that yeah um yeah I always spend a ton of money on handle materialist jobs but uh something I love is seeing other people do stuff like that and it inspires me to to do things or you know it'll give me an idea to try something different uh you know kind of like that little spark that'll I mean this happens to me sometimes in conversations with people where like an idea will just dawn on me off of something that we were talking about or something and I'll just kind of pause and stare off in the distance like Eureka oh I never thought about that like that solves this problem for that like whoa maybe I could try this and that's like constantly when I'm at a show looking around the little bit of the little tiny bit of time that I get to walk around and look at stuff it's like oh Oh man, okay, then that gives me the idea to do this and that. And oh, I don't have enough time to do all this stuff.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well yeah. I I you know, I've thought about it for several years. Um, and the only person that I've ever seen um do it is Tyler Turner. Uh but um I'm I'm almost definitely sure that I saw him make a uh a uh slip joint that had a tapered tang on it. Uh so you know he you know uh he tapered the uh the liner and scale material and then tapered the spring. And so it has that you know traditional taper tang look, but it's uh in a folding knife. And I I it's I mean I've looked at a lot of different examples, but I think that he's the only one that I've ever seen do it in a modern setting. Um and I I like uh uh Tyler a lot because he's always willing to um kind of push the envelope on things that he sees, and he's really just like um, you know, uh really country smart. Um he just uh Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean he's like a jack of all trades when it comes to knives, man. I remember what uh the first time I met him was at in Blade uh in Atlanta uh 22. And I've never heard of him. You know, I was out of out of knives for a while, so a lot happened in those two years. Uh and I saw his work and I was like, whoa, that's awesome. Like, where did you come from? And then the next thing I see, he's making an integral frame uh flipper out of you know uh like a twist titanium that he made himself. I'm like, where'd you get this from? You know, he's making his own like Thimascus around it. I know that's like a proprietary name or whatever, but um he's doing that, and then he's doing this crazy dagger, and I'm like, this all looks like you've been doing these things your whole life. Like, dude, awesome! Yeah, and I mean actually one of his knives inspired one of my designs. He made this um a flipper. It was like, I think it was inspired by a Texas toothpick. And when I saw that, it just kind of it was one of those moments where it sparked that thought in my head and then led to one of my newer designs that I came out with. They don't look anything alike, but it was one of those things where that inspiration hit me. I was like, I need to go draw something. I need to go draw something right now. Um but yeah, it's really cool when that happens. And uh, seeing uh other people pushing their boundaries and what that can do for you as a maker. You know, if everybody's treading water and not not doing anything, it's not inspiring at all. Uh you know, making the same things over and over and over and over again, um and not pushing themselves, it doesn't drive you to push yourself or you know what I mean? It's not necessarily like a competition thing, it's more of an inspiration thing. Uh and that's I mean, that's been fun too. I didn't mean to do it, but when I started pushing myself, I saw other guys like almost like okay. That's it's it's I mean, it's it sounds arrogant when I'm saying it now, but it's like okay, this is not doable. Let's do it. Like, I want to try something crazy like that. Like, let me open that book and start picking through it and uh coming up with ideas and just taking it to the next level with these uh traditional folders. Because I mean, and we're we're on we're on the first step of the flight of stairs, you know. But it's it's fun to see uh other guys making these complex knives and really pushing stuff. Um you know, and it's it's cool to know that you know I may have played my my hand in that a little bit. Uh and it it further's it's further inspiring.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Well, there's um um I've seen it. Well, I I saw it mostly in Sheffield Knives, but there's uh I was talking with uh John Horgan about uh some of the the work that he's been doing. And there's uh it's basically you you you flute or you kind of checker uh like things like Mother of Pearl, and Sheffield is like mostly I saw it in the context of Mother of Pearl. Uh but then in the pyramids at the apex of each pyramid, you drill drill a hole and then you put like a uh you know gold rod or whatever and then burnish it. I guess he um he said that the technique is called PK. And um to me, I I've always like when I look at a lot of like fixed blades that were in the Sheffield era um that have that, I've always been like that's super rad. Um and it's it seems like super complicated, especially with the uh how how brittle mother of pearl can be at times. Um but you know to do that on top of like you know a slip joint or whatever, that would be really cool. I mean, I know that you you've done checkering and mother of pearl, but then to go through and PK each one of those uh um those those little pyramids or diamonds.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I I've I'm I've learned how fickle Mother of Pearl is. The first time I ever did it uh was on that checkered Congress that you're talking about. I've never used Pearl before. Of course, the first time I'm gonna use it, I I plan on checkering it. Yeah, of course. What a nightmare. You did it to yourself. Uh right. The last knife that I made uh uh last like real complicated one was for arts and metal. And I spent a lot of money on Pearl for that knife. A lot of money on Pearl because next thing you know, I pushed something a little too hard, just a little bit, and there's a little crack.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, there it goes $400 worth of pearl. Yeah, I mean, uh we were we were taught when our kids crack kills. Right.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, um, but that's part of it too, right? So you're in the middle of this build on this really challenging knife, and you're you know, getting closer to the finish line, and then you have a catastrophic event happen where your pearl handles that are almost done are now trash, and not letting that stop you, you know, having that you know, a little bit of stoicism where it's like, okay, it is what it is. What do I have to do now? Okay, let's make them again. Let's do it again.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah. I mean, you're talking about the Stingray Sportsman that you took, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and the thing the reality of it is, is that knife wouldn't have uh looked exactly the same unless you used that medium. I mean, to me, that is such a an incredibly sexy looking knife. Um, like all of all of the polished surfaces, the blades, the geometry, that mother of pearl just makes it pop in a way that um I just can't imagine it in some ways in a different type of configuration. But I know that, man, I it's probably the the fact that you know you do all those things, you have all those moving um elements and the fit and finish is spot on, and then you add mother of pearl and it's uh you know fickleness to uh on top of that, and you look at that and you're just like, ugh, like same same thing that you think of when you think of those Sheffield blades. Like, how did they do that? Yeah, and that's pretty damn incredible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks, man. Uh that one I thought of it um come on my drive home from Atlanta last year. So that was you know part of that inspiration from the show. I was like, okay. I've made several knives out of the Sheffield book now. Like, what do I want to make next? It's like let me make one, let me design my own this time and adopt elements from that. And it's like, okay, so I want to do this, I want to do that. Like, hmm, what could I do with the frames? Ah, let's do let's do an integral titanium frame. I've never done that before. That's gonna be cool. It's like, okay, what I what I got what can I do with that? It's like uh, you know, let's color them and put pearl on it. And my initial plan was to uh blacken the titanium and have the pearl, but as I was working it, you know, normally uh when you uh when you're using pearl, you'll put gold leaf behind it to make the color pop. I was like, I can anodize the titanium gold and that'll accomplish that. And you know, it's a little bit more on the bronze side, but it really made them pop. And it just worked. Uh and I yeah, I agree. I don't think it would have been the same. Even with like a gorgeous piece of ivory on it, it it just wouldn't have come together quite the same as it did. I was really happy with it. Um there's a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in that knife, but it paid, you know, it paid off in the end result. Uh yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you you saw that one on the spelling's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, um well, and what you're talking about like kind of like different ways to uh uh skin a cat. Um I've seen that um uh Daniel Cowan has in instead of like this um anodizing um route for getting colors and things like that, he's he's done gold plating and whatnot.
SPEAKER_03Oh I was talking to him about that the other day on the phone. Yeah, that's such a cool little detail. It was one of those things where when I saw it, I was like, damn, why don't I think of that? That is so cool. That is awesome. Well, yeah, it's uh you know, one of those little details where he was like, you know, that's screw what everybody else thinks, or whether I'm supposed to do this or not. I think it looks cool. Let me throw it in there. And you know, sometimes when that happens, it's the best stuff you do, or you know, the best little detail touches and it kind of becomes your thing, you know. Um and that's what really distinguishes you from from other makers. Uh but yeah, that I I that that that is an awesome little detail that he adds in there. Well, yeah. Uh changes, you know, and it's something that's a lot of people don't think about the details on the inside of a slip joint. There's not much room to look around in there. But it's just like the icing on the cake. You know, you've looked around the handles, you look at how clean the finish is, how tight, you know, the liners are against the backspring, how flush everything is, how clean the satin finish on the blade is, how how consistent and and nice and the the grind is, how smooth the action is, and then you look inside the knife and it's just like there's a whole nother little thing going on in there, and it's just like, whoa, over the top. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, there was an episode of the catchbit show where uh Neil and Mike specifically were talking about Stanhope uh knives. And this um, you know, like a stanho lens or whatever is this little micro lens um that has an image on it. And it's very small. So like when you hold it up to the light, um, you can see the image because the way that the um the lens projects it, it's like a it's like spy era, um, you know, like uh that that entire technology of being able to take microfilms and uh read them in a specific type of light. But I I can't remember if it was Wilsonholm or who exactly it was um that would make uh knives and then put different um um lenses in it so that way you can I mean you could see like the Statue of Liberty or you know things like that and carry around a little piece that is like a you know souvenir of sorts, uh, but it has little um little trinkets. Um, and you might not ever notice it. Like the the the diameter of that lens is so small that it would you would miss it um if you didn't know that that's what it was. And I'm sure that lots of knives have gone the way of the dodo um in collections and other things that they're probably Stanhope knives and uh nobody ever know about it. But it's those little things that it always makes you wonder like, is this thing more complex? You know, what what's what's in the inside um that counts? And I've always enjoyed that. So anytime I see people that are willing to sweat the small stuff and to do things that maybe nobody had ever seen or maybe even necessarily appreciate, but it's uh it's an element of what they find interesting. Um, that's super cool. Like, I mean, what um what modern knife maker is actually um adding Stanhope uh um lenses to their knives and what kind of imagery or things like that can you uh use with modern technology and polishing methods and everything like that? Who knows? But I don't I don't know of anybody that I've seen who does it, but I mean it's a pretty crazy concept, and it's just I don't know. I like things that interest me in knives, and there's a whole lot of stuff that if you just like kind of paint outside of the box a little bit, um you can really just achieve some really crazy, crazy ideas. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it is stepping out of that, you know, uh your comfort zone a little bit, stepping stepping out of that self-imposed uh cage that you put yourself in or what you think is supposed to be. Like we're in a creative uh element here. The point is to push things and uh you know, not restrict yourself to things that you think are supposed to be a certain way. I mean, there's outside of you know functionality and whatnot, but um and unless that's like that's exactly what you want to do, right? So there's guys that strictly make super traditional stuff, and that's what they want to do, and that's what they're happy doing. That's fine, that's totally fine, and they do amazing stuff. But um if you do want uh to be creative and and artistic and uh you know express yourself that way through your work, uh imposing those limits on yourself is is uh is uh I mean it sounds redundant that I'm now that I'm saying it, but it is you are uh uh restricting yourself by doing that, by uh trying to adhere to I don't know if it's like a community uh imposed rule set or what. But um and this is another thing that when it comes to traditional knives, right? Uh like when I started modifying knives, I was uh I learned about micarta. Uh the first one of the first experiences I had with uh making, like knife making stuff, I traded somebody, I was doing wood carving, and I traded somebody as carving uh that uh I'd made for a uh knife that they'd forged. Just like the the blank, but they didn't have a handle on it. And uh then I started looking at stuff, I found out what micarta was, and then I immediately went and I made my own micarta. And I was talking to the dude and he sent me some like copper weave that was in the frame of the that's used in the frame of Apaches. I don't know, I forget what industry he was in, but he had access to some of the stuff and he sent it to me. And uh I, you know, layered OD canvas with this copper mesh you know and used uh marine epoxy and uh glued it together and I put that on that knife. Um and then so I kind of rolled that into uh the traditional stuff when I was modifying them, and uh some people had like a vitriolic reaction to it. Like, what are you doing? You that is blasphemy to put these modern materials on these knives. I'm like, says who? Do you know what I mean? But there was that pushback, and that kind of you know, I kind of got stuck in it a little bit. Like, oh, the there's things you're supposed to do and not supposed to do with these knives. Like I was adamantly against using screws on my knives for a set amount of time because I was I wanted to hold on to that uh uh traditional aspect of them. But um I was really just limiting myself. And now you know I do like I still pin knives together and I screw them together too, and it's it gives it a totally different look and feel and changes them. Just from that one simple change, it totally changes the knife and it's a lot of fun. And I you know, it it it's one more way that I can uh I guess kind of express myself in my work, if that's doesn't sound cheesy. Yeah, not sure.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean I and I get it. You you know I think it um I was talking with uh Lynn Ray on an episode of the uh podcast, and um something that he's done over the many years of uh um making knives uh that he has is give himself certain constraints, right? So you know there's there's certain design constraints or uh artistic constraints or whatever. And and yeah, you kind of uh you you paint yourself into a corner, as it were, because you are you are deciding to limit yourself on certain aspects of making. Uh Lynn, you know, he'll take like a certain piece of steel and he'll forge it out into his uh um his X-ray knives, right? So X-ray, his last name. And and he does things like that where he's like, I want to push the limits on, let's talk about the roots of uh bladesmithing and how these you know blacksmiths and bladesmiths took very, very little of something and turned it into something functional or something, you know, functional and beautiful. And um, you know, I I think that when we like the paradigm shift isn't isn't artistic constraint, it's it's removing the barrier of where artistic constraint and peer pressure are looked at as the same thing. Uh and I'll and I'll use an example, like Tim Robertson. Like I love Tim Robertson. Um he's uh you know has helped me an immense amount in my knife making um and just the way that I think of things and techniques that I use, right? And one might look at you know Tim's work and say, okay, well, he's uh you know a traditional guy. He makes traditional knives. But there was a point in time where you can you can see a difference in his work where he said, the my artistic constraint is to is to take these traditional knives that have variation and people look at um patterns differently, and to to establish what I guess the gold standard in a traditional pattern would look like. And and you know, you look at um the his finishing techniques and everything. Like I'm I'm looking at uh an HTT four-inch uh uh integral that he made. And man, I I've I've seen his knives, I look at them, and I can tell no difference in fit, finish, quality, anything action um from what you see in a picture versus what you feel in your hand. It's a really crazy um constraint that he's put on himself to make things that I can't tell you why it looks so good. Um, you know, obviously things are execute executed really well, um, but you know, his fit and finish and um are just immaculate. And then you add on top of that that when you actually feel the things, the action is just uh it's money, right? And and traditional, um, he's pushing the boundaries on the traditional um market and mindset, and he's doing it in a way that is a constraint of himself, right? It's a it's it's him taking something and saying, What if I did this, but I did it in a way that these are my only options, right? It's like it is only an option that I I this flows in this way. It's only an option that ever the blades have this type of attitude, and I, you know, combine these materials and whatnot. And he makes, you know, a lot of gobs of his own tools. He has like, you know, he he's a madman when it comes to tinkering with things. And you know, most uh we talk about that all the time. And well, I mean, look at but look at happenstance, right? So like uh somebody like Tim, he's he pursued this like, what can you do with a panograph? Like, you know, there's really not a lot of panograph people out there. And then he becomes an authority on panographs, like this like super niche, nobody else cares about it type of thing. But those of us who have panographs have like Yeah, he's a great two guy. Yeah, well, and I mean, you know, when it comes to knife making and lasers and things, like you're pushing some envelopes that I just um I wouldn't know how to figure it out myself. I know exactly who I'd come to if I had questions on it. And uh um, you know, like uh how like building the Sheffield um um uh inspired knives, dude. I don't know. Like every time you turn around and do something that I've seen in that book-ish that you've made, um, I'm like, man, I I don't know. Like if I ever got into the like a wild hair that I wanted to build those things, you'd be the one of the first people I come to to actually talk through why I probably shouldn't.
SPEAKER_02And then if you if you don't dissuade me, then I'm I'll be like, okay, maybe maybe I'll try it. Oh yeah, right. I'd I'd try to convince you as hard as I can to do it. It's a little sadistic, right? It's like watch other people like suffer and fail at things like you had to.
SPEAKER_03No, but the the the fun part is watching them try it and then do it. That's what's really fun. And you know, providing that encouragement and motivation and any help that you can along the way, it's like it's really gratifying. And then, you know, seeing that your hard work uh doing it uh blind uh uh is helping somebody else do it. So, like uh, you know, like my buddy uh Dave Cramp, for example, he's pushing it himself with complex builds, and we'll you know, he'll give me a call and we'll talk about a certain mechanism or this knife and what's inside of it. Uh we don't know. So we'll we'll we'll start talking through these mechanisms and how these things come together. And like, okay, well, we know that there's this on the backside, we don't have a picture of it, but we know that this tool is there. So, like, what spring is it sitting on? How does that change the geometry of the spring? Uh what direction does this have to sit? You know, how are you going to uh you know lay out the liners? Um how are you gonna have enough room in the blade well for these two blades to sit when you've got that on the backside? Like, you know what I mean? And walking through those processes and figuring that out together, like it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. And um, yeah, I think circling back to early on in our conversation, that kind of motivating each other uh and passing the knowledge on, it's really gratifying. I think it's super important.
SPEAKER_00I think it's super important. Yeah. Well, I mean, speaking of cramp, like that, the harfoot that he did. Um, and and uh uh hiding that uh retention pin inside of the shield and everything. Like I looked at that, and the first thing I saw when when I finally like saw what he was building, like uh, you know, I I think for a little while he had kind of put uh some pieces of it online, and then I saw what he was doing, and I was like, that is stupid. Like it's it's I I don't know why anyone would do that to themselves. And he figured this out, and and I have to ask, like, like how and and it's it's stuff like that where that's what I I really like that reaction. I like it when I look at something, I'm like, I don't I just don't know about this thing. Like how how can you measure the competitive nature that you have with other people when you look at something so stupid that just like boggles your mind and tells like you know, you just like throw whatever you have in your hands at like out and you're like, I give up. Like I just don't I don't know if I care enough about anything as much as he cared about making that stupid thing that I just could never figure out and it looks awesome and it's ridiculous, and um you know, has like I don't think that there's anything I don't love about that. It's just a really crazy build.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's awesome. And the fact that, you know, he just you know, he he broke out of that box with what you know that what what uh has been done with patterns similar to that and trying new things. Um it was really cool to see, really cool to see, and I think we just like hit it off from that immediately, and now we just talk about like wild builds. Um but that was awesome, awesome to see. And seeing what he's I mean, he's working on something really cool now for Atlanta. Um I'm looking forward to seeing that's gonna be fun. And so is uh so is Daniel. He's bringing something really cool too. Uh somebody else who's inspiring me is uh Meridian. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. He made that uh what's it called? That it's like a folding hunter with the uh I'm forgetting what the mechanism's called. That that part that protects the tip folds into the frame and locks the floor. Yeah, the safety knife that he made. Yes, and the uh swing guard on it. Just what an awesome build. I cannot wait to see that knife in Atlanta. Like there's usually a few knives before the show, right? That I'm gonna beeline it to check out. That's absolutely one of them. I cannot wait to see that knife. But I I just I saw as he was building it, I'm like, man, this thing's gonna be sweet. And then just seeing the final product, like you crushed it. He is really good.
SPEAKER_00Really, really good. And and uh from everything I've seen, like super humble and very um, what a nice guy, right? What a nice guy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I uh and uh so I guess uh when he was in Oregon, he won um uh well yeah, four four awards, and that that uh swing guard um uh safety uh that he made uh won Best Hunter Utility. And I'm like there I don't know if there's an award. I think it won Best in Show. That one Best in Show. Yes, I think so. Um I all I see on pictures is that like he uh he has all of his awards and his accolades for just keeping his nose to the grindstone. And I I don't know, dude. Um it's it's cool to me too that he's venturing down to the big show because I I can't remember um he was there last year, I believe, but I can't remember if he yeah he wasn't an exhibitor, right?
SPEAKER_03No, he attended last year, and then he came to Blade West and he won Best Folder.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So that was that was really cool. And that was with you know, he's pushing that creative boundary. He made a lockback Whitler of his own design, and there really aren't that many guys doing that. Um that's something that I was talking to Jared Oser about probably a few months ago now. That yeah, there's a bunch of guys that make slip joints, but there aren't that many guys that are venturing out and uh creating their new patterns and uh pushing it in different directions, uh kind of blazing their own trail, you know. I'd love to see that. I love seeing that stuff.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, as as much as I love traditional knives, I mean they're they're they're what got me into all this, right? This whole mess falling head over heels in love with traditional knives. I mean, I got sucked into it fast. That's how much I, you know, it was love at first sight, you know. But seeing that extra creative element added to it makes it that much more special, uh in my opinion. And um uh you know, pushing yourself as much as you can, even with your your self-imposed restraints, like Tim, for example, just uh trying to make it as good as he possibly can and improving every single knife. And he's trying he's breaking out of that box a little bit too. You know, he's uh starting to dabble in uh uh uh coming up with different configurations and and uh changing things up. Like he brought a uh lockback Whitler Saubelly to Blade West, uh this past Blade West, I think. And that was something new. You know, that was a a new take on a super traditional design. Um so he's going that way too. It's awesome, awesome to see. And uh like what's also kind of funny is that what a lot of people don't realize um Tony was doing the same thing. Uh you know, the Zulu spear, the Warncliffe Trapper, uh Lanny's clip. Those were his designs. You know, pulling a little bit from this knife and a little bit from that knife uh out of the tradition, but making a new configuration, and that's they're you know, they're kind of canon now, you know what I mean? People don't even consider them not traditional patterns or a new traditional pattern because it's so uh uh uh uh embraced uh uh by uh the community that it it's like a little bit disassociated from that was Tony being uh creative and coming up with his own stuff. Uh and even minor little adjustments like the Wolford Hunter that's a uh 1306 with a swedge, but it changes the look of the knife. And but it's just like a little detail adjustment that changes it, right? And it's super cool, right? It's but it's stepping out of that box a little bit, it's not staying strictly to what it's supposed to be, you know what I mean? Um it's cheeky. Yeah. But it it it's it's that extra little special element, you know. Uh like looking into a knife that everything's traditional about it, and then you look in and there's a gold backspring or a honeycomb on the liner, you know. Uh just that extra little splash of creativity and detail in there um that really makes it special.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah. Um I love something. And um uh one thing I like about this uh kind of like renaissance period that you guys are are doing, because you know, I'm um I I'm not in that, right? Um I I'm looking at it from like purely as an admirer, um, because um if you look at most of my knives, they're very um plain's not the right word. Um I I play um a lot with like I I guess what I consider neo-traditional, right? Um so it's like old, old, old patterns or takes on things, but um, you know, new handle materials, um, you know, sweat different swedges, things like that. Um, but what what I see is just uh an awful lot of um pushing that envelope in ways that um you know, going back to like our conversation about you know, somebody might not actually see it. Um but uh Tim posted up a photo where he was like, you know, it's it's the things that you will never see that you focus a lot of time on too. And to know to know that you guys collectively in in this, it's it's kind of interesting because there's a certain portion of like the um, I guess maybe it's the unintended consequence of uh Blade Show Awards where it's like, I wonder who's gonna win it this year, right? Or this show. And you have to look at like all these, all of you guys are bringing a game uh where it's changing the landscape of what is expected at an award, right? Um like a judgment. And uh I just I'm always interested every single show to see who will win it because um when when you're really focusing on um just impressing the impressing the other guys that are also submitting um work that is equally as complex and uh thought-provoking and evocative, um, that to me is a a uh I I guess like an unintended consequence of a of an award process that actually makes the award more interesting. Like if it's just given to like whoever because of whatever um politics or uh because um, you know, you know, I I don't know, whatever reason. Like when you think that the like the um awards are rigged or that nobody cares about them or it's always the same people that are winning them or whatever, it becomes a little less interesting than when you just have a bunch of people that say, all right, well, you know, next year I'm going to just bring something that's going to floor everybody. They're they're they're not going to know um the knife world and what's possible um in the same way as they did last time. And that's really something that I've just enjoyed. It's like it's a little bit ridiculous at this point.
SPEAKER_03And I I don't there's no way like it's totally absurd, but it's so much fun. And I mean, I I look at it as an unintended benefit um because we all just keep pushing each other, and we are we're all friends, and we all love to see it. Like um, you know, talk about somebody that's that's stepped out of the box, it was a huge inspiration, it still is for me, Jared Ozer, uh completely changing the landscape of you know uh quote unquote traditional slip joints and adding that modern element to it uh and his designs and everything. That's just like uh when he first started out, it was like blasphemy, you know. Burn the witch, you know what I mean? Yeah, uh but it's just like he's doing what he wanted to do, and it's awesome. It's awesome, and now you know, he's got he's completely changed it. Uh and even, you know, uh I don't know if you saw that that two-layer sportsman that he brought to Texas, uh, but even seeing him like step out a little bit and do that, and we were talking about the corkscrew and and uh kind of walking through that and and little hang-ups in the process of building one of those. Uh just like sharing knowledge and and uh you know inspiring each other to do stuff so cool. Uh it changes the atmosphere, you know what I mean? Um it it starts shifting people's perspectives a little bit. It's just like all right, like Tim will call me up like I gotta tell you what I'm building this time, you you know. It's like what are you what are you making? What are you making? How how how bad is how how much harder do I have to work? We'll be talking smack and it's it's fun, it's a lot of fun, and then we'll start talking over little details of stuff and we'll be sharing techniques and like oh I got this tool and a total game changer. You gotta try it out for this and that. And uh yeah, I mean it's really cool stuff. I love it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think that man, there's lots of uh there's lots of ways that um competition and things can be uh unhealthy, as it were. Um, but you you combine these elements where people like you're uh you have the autonomy to decide on how how far you're willing to push it and how much you're willing to uh uh compete, I guess. Um and as long as it's all done um in good humor and uh to inspire each other, I think that that's a real that's really cool, cool. Like, you know, uh uh Jared's Jared's takes on uh take on knives in general is something that I have I've appreciated because he plays a lot with geometry and in in different planes. And to me that's uh that's really interesting because you look at something and you're like, huh. I I I never thought of it that way. And and it's it's like where you know pivot pins are and material choices and things like that. Um that that is an enrichment to uh to knives uh that to me, like he could play very easily in the traditional market and be very comfortable there. Um, but you know, comfort doesn't seem to be his thing. Uh you know, he's he's pushing it in a in a way that is just his mind's eye and whatever he's bringing to the table. Um I I don't think that there's uh ever been anything that I've seen that he's made that I haven't liked, um, except maybe when he like you know cracks handles or things like that. Um if he's ever uh you know once in a while showed that. It's like uh, oh man, this could have been so great, and then you know something didn't work out. But I mean uh everything I I like I I like uh a little bit of that um uh behind the scenes, like failures do happen and you don't always get this uh you know prim and proper, you know, pretty looking knife at the end. Like you really gotta work hard to push that envelope and make it into what it is. Like it's a it's a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. And uh I I've appreciated that about like a little bit of a peek behind the um a peak behind the curtain, as it were, um, with with everyone in the knife community now. Uh social media is great for that. It really sucks for trying to eke out a living um because sales are really difficult. But if you're just uh using social media to show um cool stuff that you're working on, I think it's like super great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um it's I mean so I've I've kind of been I've been putting a lot more effort just in the last month to give a little bit more of that peek behind the scenes. Um I've been using Instagram as kind of my catalog for a while, and uh my buddy Trip Miller, who you had him you you did a couple episodes with him, right?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I I split his uh long long conversation into two shorter episodes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I I saw what he was doing with Enrique's group and kind of pulling Enrique out of his shell a little bit. And uh I thought it was really cool. And then it kind of dawned on me like I like this stuff, like uh I guess I I mean I should probably be doing this too. Uh I was talking to him, um, well, because you know, Instagram everybody's getting hit. I've got restrictions on my account, and it's you know, it's kind of you you see where it's gonna it's going, right? This is the second wave where they've just gone and restricted tons of knife makers' accounts. Um it's like, okay, I can tell which way the wind's going on this one. Uh and I've had a couple of conversations with people before about uh you know a f the Facebook group and the importance of that, uh and kind of having a sense of community in in a group and where that would be a great place to to show that work in progress stuff and little videos on how I do things and just throw them in the group. Um so I started doing like little live streams in there once a week and showing around my shop. Like I haven't done a shop tour since that uh Rob Bixby interview. My shop's changed like six times since that it's completely different in the same room, but totally different. Uh I was like, because when when I see other people's work in progress, like if I see slip joint. Parts on a table. I'm like, uh, whatever. But that's what I see every day. That's not what somebody a collector sees every day. And talking to Trip and talking to my buddy Corey, who's helping me out, he's like, that is the content that we want to see. I'm like, well, all right, well, that makes sense, right? It's it's boring to me because that's what I look at every all day, every day. But yeah, maybe I should start sharing a little bit more uh kind of a little bit, you know, peek behind the curtain of what's going on. Um so and and uh there's been a good uh reaction to that. And I'm enjoying it too, right? Uh talking to people more, just doing a live stream, you know, even if there's two or three viewers as we're just uh starting it in the Facebook group, it's still fun. Uh and um I forgot where I was going with this, but yeah, the the uh it's giving somebody a little bit more of an insight as to what's going on in the shop and a little bit more about myself. Uh whereas I mean I prefer to kinda not be not put myself out there. I I like I was I I put my work out there, I'm happy to show my work. I don't like taking you know pictures of myself and you know it feels a little bit uh disingenuous. Um well almost uh not necessarily disingenuous, but like who the who wants to see a picture of my ugly mother? You know what I mean? Like, why do you care what I'm doing? Or you know what I mean? It's like you're here for knives, let's see the knives, right? That's what I want to see. Let's see the knives. But uh when I found myself enjoying that, even though I'm friends with Enrique and I know the guy, you know, and I've uh just like the little 30-minute live streams that it'll do with Trip. I'm like watching it, like this is awesome. This is what I want to see. Uh it's really cool. It's really cool. So uh my my perspectives shift shifted on that a little bit, and uh I'm trying to do the same thing. And I think it's going to help push me back into uh my roots a little bit with work in progress stuff and uh tutorial stuff, uh uh, which I also really enjoy doing. I just what I hate doing is documenting. Yeah. Documenting it, uploading it onto social media, and then following it up, following up with that. Oh yeah, it's a lot of work. Uh yeah, it's a lot of work, and there's a lot of work on the bench. You know what I mean? It's like uh is uh posting, taking these videos and posting them to social media gonna pay the bills? I don't know. Yeah. Well, but I think it comes around, you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_00For sure. And uh like for me, uh I think probably like what I mean by uh disingenuous is kind of like uh um I am not always very comfortable sharing stuff of myself. Like when you what you see out in my shop or what you see kind of like I'm working on is sometimes very tangential, um, sometimes it's very chaotic, sometimes it's very like not until the last minute, right? I'm not I'm not a super methodical uh type of guy. Um I I really I just don't if you went out there and I could show you everything that I'm working on, but if you really like stepped out there, like whenever I die, if I'm still like making knives and stuff, my wife is gonna be like, I don't I don't even know what any of this stuff is. Like what why is why is why is it in this place and does it have any context? Like you'd have to spend a while just trying to figure out like what was going on in this guy's mind. And uh for me, uh I there there's a certain portion of trying to curate myself so that way I can post it online that um it does not represent me. Like I I'm a train wreck, like 98% of the time. I'm surprised that I get anything done in knives. Um I maybe that's something I should I I should take as a hint uh for better discipline. But um, you know, something there uh you know, talking about um um uh uh you know doing um you know these uh videos and things like that. Um and and kind of like some of the the context of foreign makers, I guess. Like we have a like we have a lot of like US centric makers that we follow and we do stuff with, but uh I really enjoy um uh makers that uh I get to see that are in different countries. Uh uh South Africa has been really interesting to see some of their build processes and logic because uh uh some things are actual um they're cultural norms and they they come into play with how they think about things. There's a maker that has done a lot of like um uh I don't I don't know if he's necessarily uh just a loveless maker. Um well, I mean he's not. He does like a lot of crazy stuff, but it's uh Hiroshi Suzuki. And and uh his work in progress stuff, you know, because there's kind of like a language barrier and it's like a translate, like how well does this translate? Well, some most of the time not very well. Facebook doesn't do a great job of that, but um to see some of the things that he actually cares about in his builds and and areas where he focuses on and says, you know, I need to take a picture of this. Um to me is actually really interesting. Um not only is he just like a world-class knife maker, I mean, he's phenomenal uh fit finish and I mean everything. It just he does such a good job. Uh but additionally, he provides a a context for knife making where um you have a lot that you can learn. Like some of the ways that he tapes certain things off with just this like very slight cellophane tape, or I don't I dude, I don't even know. Like this, the the way that he looks at things, uh the things that he focuses on and shows pictures of or whatever, um, it doesn't like it, it it uh breaks down language barriers because you're using visual elements to convey something that's important. And I really like that. Um to me, I've I sometimes like I'll see his uh name hit on my like Facebook or whatever, and I'll just like spend 45 minutes or an hour scrolling through his, you know, the last month or so of his builds. And I'm like, man, like you ever want to feel like a small person in a um in a small pond, like an even smaller person in a small pond, like look at some of the work that he does, and it's just uh incredible stuff. Um and I I like that. I like to be able just to kind of it's not humbling, it's uh it's uh inspiring me to like get off my butt and actually do something creative and to think differently about things. And I think that that um um knives to me is probably the thing that I've spent the most uh time studying and doing next to playing violin, uh, which I started playing when I was 10 years old. And so like I had I spent a long time uh playing it, both uh uh semi-professionally and doing a lot of different aspects of uh classical violin, chamber, fiddle competitions, all sorts of stuff, right? And um knives has been the thing that has been the least boring thing to me, um, along with violin. And I've spent the majority of my life so far invested in those two things. Um and I I really just look at it being like it's like a wellspring. There's just so much that you can pull for it from it. There's so much that you can focus on, there's so much that you can do, and you just get in the right element, and man, the sky's the limit. Like, I mean, who knows what kind of person you can be um in a year of just hyper focusing on one element or you know, one idea, and there's a ton that exists in knives, like Iridian and doing scrimshaw on his on his uh slip joints and stuff. Yeah. Like I hate scrimshaw, like it's the worst thing for me because I suck at it. Um, but I love it because it's so amazing. Like there's so many uh different techniques that you can apply. Like I had Linda Carstone on on the show, and how humble she has been with an illustrious career in Scrimshaw, touching some of the the greatest artists in knife making history's work with your own um our artistic um abilities. Uh to me, like I don't know, dude. It's just there's so much. There's you could spend three lifetimes making knives and still not touch all of the areas of knife making that you could.
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely. And uh another thing that's kind of put that into uh you know made me think about these work in progress pictures and stuff like that, letting people see that uh something that's really kind of made me think about the value behind that and uh the you know kind of the importance of it. I don't know if you've been seeing uh Havier Vot Vot? I can't I don't know how to pronounce his ass anymore, but V O G T. He makes those amazing automatic uh folders. He's been doing a progress uh post on his Instagram of just like detailed pro uh progress uh posts on this awesome knife and all of the tiny little details that go into it. And I've just been glued to it every time he posts. I'm inspecting every picture and it made me kind of think about uh the stuff that I do that I take for granted, but you know, somebody that buys one of my knives, they're never they're never gonna know that uh I I took that time to do that. Uh that I that there's so much uh I mean talking kind of like uh inlaying a shield. Something as simple as inlaying a shield, uh the measurements that I take, the uh how I decide the placement, how even something like uh marking the locations of the scale pins uh on a bolstered knife, how I do that, and it's all very calculated and measured and laid out. It's not just a blind guess, you know what I mean? It's very thoroughly planned. And I may be shooting myself in the foot by doing that because it's taking me that much longer. Um but it's uh to my standard, you know what I mean? Uh and seeing him put these posts together on Instagram of all of the tiny little details of this knife and how cool it is to see and just like like I'm looking at one right now, it's just got you know, he's he's where he's described something for these exact placements and measurements on things. Uh but that's just something that you don't see when it's a finished product. You you can see it and and appreciate it and and see how complex it all is when it's finished. But watching it grow, you know, watching it come from flat steel, you know, to a to a complete masterful work of art, it's really, really something special. Uh so I mean that that's kind of inspired me too to uh sh start showing those steps a little bit more um and kind of getting out of that I don't know, it like it feels arrogant to even say that I think people would want to see that from me, you know what I mean? It's like who am I to say that people want to see every little detail of what I'm doing? You know, I don't know, it's not that's it's like not in my nature to think that way, but see uh I I appreciate it so much. And after talking to some people, you know, and they want to see that stuff too. And uh being totally capable of doing that, even with you know uh little things, little things, little uh little things I take for granted that I do every day uh that somebody just hasn't thought about that goes into these knives. Um I think it's cool to see. It's really cool to see.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I'm I'm trying to push myself to kind of start doing that again.
SPEAKER_00Because I used to do it. I used to do it. Well, I mean, you know, a perfect example is like I saw you in laying those shields that inspired me to buy a panograph and uh had like st stemmed the relationship with I have with uh Tim Robertson, you know. Like you um I I I'm kind of reminded in the in that sense that um it's it's kind of the same, like you know, like in in the in Christian context, we talk about like blessings and everything, or you know, even I mean, it's it's not even just in like you know that religious uh uh context, but just like good vibes, uh karma, everything like that. Like you never really know who you touch with your life energy, right? And and it's like a butterfly effect of like you can put an awful lot of like positivity and love and um and you know all those good things out into the world, or you can be like a curmudgeon and just you know live your life set centrally, or like everything is about you and your experiences and how everybody is a means to an end for your own selfish will, right? Um and I I I I think about that. Like I I I have no concept of what um like me doing, like I mean, I spent a decent amount of time on this podcast stuff. Like people maybe people might not realize it, but I spend a lot of time editing and I don't edit like content out, but I spend a lot of time like trying to balance things. I spend a lot of time thinking about it. Like my wife is like, you talk about knives an awful lot. And and she's not saying it like you know in a mean sense, but she's like, you know, like this is occupies a lot of your mind, doesn't it? Right. It's like you and I was like, I don't, I don't know. Like I think about this all the time. Even when I'm not making knives or I don't have the capacity to, I'm looking through and doing research. I'm thinking about how I can make things better with this format. I'm bringing on awesome guests that can talk about inspiring things, you know. I mean, uh every every episode I think about um when we're talking, what are people doing? Like, are they researching things? Are they looking for the reference? Uh um are they talking? Are they gonna go and look at Javier's work um and see exactly what you're talking about? And um some somebody's going to realize that Javier is like their inspiration, right? Who knows? Um, but I spend a lot of time that you probably would not like have a lot of concept of unless you sat and you know had to edit this stuff for hours and hours and hours, especially when you have like two, three hour episodes. I spread probably spend another you know six to nine hours doing all the curation for it, um, in addition with that. So I mean it's a lot of time. Um and sometimes there's just no easy way. Like there's there's no there's no easy way to step past that the quality and things that you need. Um kind of uh speaking about um Javier for a second, um like detail work like uh 2022, sometime mid-year, he was doing a uh uh Jimmy uh Schmidt tribute knife knife, and uh he did this like uh um 18 karat gold pins and he he made a bale out of uh Damascus. And I'm like, man, like things like that are super crazy. Like when you look at the devil is in the details, um, he is a perfect example of like how insane it is. And uh his um his style of guard, I guess I don't know what you call it, like a the guard lock um automatic knives is one of my by far is my favorite um um mechanism uh aesthetic of of any knife I've ever seen. Like every time I look at them or have been able to like um uh fiddle with them, I'm like if I could make something, because I I it's so reminiscent of like um uh like Italian uh stiletto um automatics, right? Um and and I absolutely love what he's doing. Um I've never I haven't seen anything that has just been like unappealing to me. Like a yeah, dude, it's it's like awesome.
SPEAKER_03He's he's uh it's unbelievable. When I first saw his work, like I first came across his Instagram page, I was like, there's no way. Yeah, there's no way. This guy's insane. And then to find out that he's doing this all by hand, he doesn't have a CNC nothing. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00It's just like Yeah. Um, have you ever followed the uh a knife maker, uh uh Stefano Nordelli? Uh let me see. I don't think stuff. Um Stefano had uh uh he's an Italian maker, and uh he his day job is actually he flies helicopter. I can't remember if it's like search and rescue or like you know, whatever their version of the Coast Guard is or whatever it, whatever. It's some type of um um flying helicopters. And he has uh uh some like mechanism stuff that he's worked out, but he uh where where it hides the locking mechanism hides behind the bolster. Um and uh and he has like a hidden clip that like recesses in and then pops out. It's like hello, and then uh you know you can stick it in your pocket. But uh he has melded together some really crazy concepts in horology with like he has some uh crazy watchmaking equipment that um he's applied not only in his knives but also in making um watch faces and other things like that. But then he's also a really big into lapidary and dude, this uh uh mind-boggling. He does everything by hand too. Like he had like I think the most uh dude, I'm looking at this clip right now.
SPEAKER_03That is awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um he I I tried, I tried very hard uh because we've known each other for quite a few years by now, and I tried very hard to get him on the podcast to talk. But he's like, you know, I don't really speak great English. And I was like, well, I don't care. Let's let's just muddle through it. I want to talk to you about why why you are insane enough to do the stuff that you do. Um maybe one day I'll work him down, but uh dude, like he has a day job, and then he also does this stuff, and he does it all by hand. Um, like all of the all of these recesses and everything like that that he does, it's all um like parser plates and just in insanity. I I don't like his uh I mean he does these uh these inlays with Mother of Pearl, um like the black lip pearl and stuff. Yeah, I'm I'm that's the one I'm looking at right now. Some things in life are just unfair. Like uh I look at the stuff that he does, and I'm like, man, I I don't know how you did it, and I I really can't spend the time of thinking why, but I just dude, I scroll through his stuff all the time. Like he's I'm a big fan of his.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, and I'm looking at this knife right now and it's so beautifully polished, and you can't really appreciate a polished finish on something until you try to polish something. And to keep it clean. Oh yeah. It's like you look at it the wrong way and scratch it shut up. Uh I mean I just went through this the other day. I was finishing this, I posted the little video of the knife up today with this uh polish of ache light. And I don't I don't polish things very often, right? I I like I like satin finishes a lot, um more because of the uh the utility of it. Uh that is something that you know I I really try to uh keep in mind when making a knife, um that in the end it is a tool and I want somebody to use it and when they use it I want it to work and I don't want it to uh you know one time in the pocket to come out. looking messed up. You know what I mean? So I I I try to avoid doing uh you know really fine finishes that can get easily marred during use. But I I still can really appreciate it. And and sometimes some materials really call for it. And that this vintage bakelite really calls for a nice polish. Not it just finishes so beautifully. But man, it is a pain. A pain. A lot of tape a lot of tape and just being very careful. And to see to see something like that is just like the amount of work that goes into it to do it on you know something that's got so many elements to it that there's so much behind it. And that's just the the cherry on top. Like we were talking uh earlier about you know somebody that could put five hundred dollars worth of material on a knife that's not made you know as as good as it could be. And that being almost like a letdown because it wasn't uh executed to its potential you know or the potential of that maker even but to see something that is executed masterfully and then have those incredible finishes and materials and details that just push it way over the top.
SPEAKER_01It's just like unfair yeah oh yeah get out of here I don't want to see anymore.
SPEAKER_00Right no I and I I agree that's that's always the way that I feel like um like Stefano uh uh there's two things like okay the mechanism like let's just ignore that like uh the mechanism is great it's like his own design and everything um he's done some stuff with like two toning damisteel right where you know the bevel is um the bevel is all etched and then the flats are are polished gloss right and it's like uh I I understand like how much I hate like high polishing things but to go through that much detail and then have no di deformation right like it no rounded corners where they're not supposed to be rounded nothing like that and to not touch that that etch um that he got on the bevels uh it's stupid but then like uh on some of his stuff like he did this one with the labradorite um um inset in carbon fiber of all things right um it's like la Labradorite is uh you know very blue very chatoyant and then to mix that with the um the carbon fiber that he did um to me is an insane juxtaposition of textures and things that I don't know like in in the US market uh some you know like uh in Europe some things are just sexy right there there are certain plays on things that you just you have to be able to experience it and see them um like the fashion industry and things and dude all of Stefano's work is just sexy it it just screams that he is uh a playboy in knives and I don't I hate him and love him at the same time and he's such a nice person like you talk to him about anything and he'll uh you know he'll share it I think apart from maybe his mechanism because it's like he he tries to guard that because of how much time he spent uh developing it out um and you know they don't have like the same kind of patent laws and litigation and stuff uh overseas um as I as I'm aware of it. But uh other than like the for like it's like uh he he shows most of how things work but when it comes to like certain aspects of his mechanism that he developed he uh tries to not not take as many pictures of it I think that we were talking one time he's like you know I probably should just do it like who cares? But then you know there he does have a lot of time in it and it's like he's the only person in the world who's doing what he's doing uh in the way that he is and man I don't know I just live in this world of loathing like self-loathing because I'll never be great and but and and that that's understandable too right I mean we're talking about gatekeeping and whatnot but um there is an aspect of like let me have my time with it and then I'll pass it on you know what I mean uh like for for with with patterns for example I'm I'm more than happy to share my designs but if it's something fresh something new like let me have some time with it first you know what I mean and then like give me a give me a couple years then then yeah you can have it sure but let me let me hold on to it just for a little bit. Yeah well and I yeah and I I totally get that um it's it's it's just what a I think that there's a professional courtesy like I don't I'm not married to patterns that I've made um really I don't it's it's conceited to say popular um but it's more mostly saying you know my take on something um where I see it kind of creeping up and in the the zeitgeist right um it's it's okay to like hold off and just allow a person for just a a period of time to do their thing.
SPEAKER_03Um and uh yeah I think it's like a professional courtesy right um even if it's something you know you could easily do and that you really really like but it's like that's kind of you know that's their thing. Uh let me let me let me see how I can express my creativity in in my own way and maybe you know let that inspire me to do something else. But um but yeah I mean it there is and it almost sounds uh hypocritical but it well it feels a little bit hypocritical to you know hold some things to yourself like that. But you it's like you're so you know what I mean? Uh and to to to give it all away freely immediately feels I don't know I don't know if it feels like it cheapens it or it's it's like you're removing yourself from it um I don't know it's a little hard to describe yeah that that feeling of like wanting to hold on to it for a little bit. It's almost like you know the the letting the baby bird fly out of the nest sending sending your kid off to college. Not that I've experienced that yet but I can imagine it's like uh I want to hold on to you but you're free to go go on go on your way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well and I'll make another one of you anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I mean I I don't know dude like I well I've experienced it both ways um uh you know uh the uh I I have a style of of finishing stainless it gets a real black right and I've had this um you know kind of culture of like if I'm going to certain local shows or things people want to know like how do you do that? And if you say, well I mean there's there's lots of ways to do it you can figure it out and they'll be like oh I will like kind of like F you like for like for gatekeeping or whatever. I'm like it's not that I took something that was like a a a knife adjacent thing and I thought hmm I'm gonna apply it here. And now you're wanting to replicate that in your own stuff and be like I don't know derivative. And and and there's a certain portion it's like man I just did this thing will you just give me a break for a second like stop constantly trying to chomp on me. But then I've also been the kind of guy that has freely shared stuff and man uh I I was doing some uh um early work in well it happened two times like some leather stamping with uh 3D printing um I was like a an early adopter of 3D printing for leather stamps uh I didn't see it anywhere else I started doing it had a company worked with my brother to kind of let him do it because he was he had the 3D printer and I was just saying hey this is a really you know good idea and then you know people started um copying that pretty quickly after we were kind of like I'm kind of you know kind of done with it. It's a little bit more work and not a lot of profit but um you know uh things like that or uh doing some um uh laser coaster work in like the avenue that I was like everybody like will sit and ask you for your exact numbers right like what are you running on your laser um I have a diode laser it's not the same as like the fiber stuff that you're running but um you know like coasters like people want to know exactly what you're doing exactly your speed and feed as it were and I'm like dude like come on like I had to figure this stuff out there wasn't any information out there on how to do it in this medium with these results and I don't know what to tell you but um I just like I do want an appropriate amount of time to just feel it out because you know I think there's a a certain portion of um the the effort that we put in that is also market analysis right like like uh you there's there's combinations of things there's patterns there's uh finishes there's even what you're doing in the context of social media or whatever um who is it like Birdvis Knives um does those whip wipes and I've kind of like flippantly done them like I mean it's but uh I I there's there's two things like one I'm very clearly doing stuff in a in a similar style to him and I was just testing out to see is this something like this ASMR stuff that people are more attracted to that than they are exactly what I'm working on. So I take something that was kind of stupid looking and do the same thing. And dude sure enough people are more interested in like the stimuli that you they get from something than what it is that's actually being applied to and I was like okay well I mean I'm kind of done with that but you know market analysis and seeing what the market will bear and seeing like kind of how you can play with different stuff you know everybody else was like oh that's a super great idea tell me exactly how you do it and I'm like dude like figure it out and I've just had to kind of like resign myself to the same way as I think of it in IT. It's like dude you're just gonna bite off of the last I like the my last good idea but I got millions of them like I I'm just like one thought away from the next thing. And so okay like whatever I guess you just like you're just gonna take my seconds and do something with it and I'm just gonna have to come up with something else that is um you know something else. And but I do wish that there was more of a professional courtesy um with people and they weren't just so like blatant about uh trying to uh copy or ask you for things or it was just derivative like you know give just give give you a shot like uh it's the same way with like uh Kurt a Kurt Romano with his uh Dino um you know like yeah he shared it with some people and that was the mistake that he made and now everybody makes it um and you know he was a you know he wrote it out for a little while he was doing other things and then started to share it but the moment that you let that cat out of the bag it's like kind of like you can't unring a bell and then after that it's that's it. I mean you can't you can't really go back after that and you can't really you know cry about uh sharing things because you were the one that actually you know perpetuated it it's unfortunate um but so for with pattern sharing I think that that is um I don't know if it carries over to other types of knives as much as it does with slip joints um and I mean it might be a culture that Tony established with him freely sharing uh all of his designs for people to use and I mean how many different people do you see made make landing scripts?
SPEAKER_03I've I'd make landing scripts I've made uh cliff trappers but not not uh I mean I've made like a gentle knife sized horncliffe trapper but still uh that kind of culture comes around and then it's almost like uh but that that's very specific to patterns right um and when it comes to sharing things I've resigned myself to pretty much I just always say yes uh um to sharing some sort of knowledge or technique or something if somebody specifically asks me about something and another thing is if I think they're serious, right? There's gotta be that you know time investment aspect to it as well because if I let any random person you know vampire forty hours from me when I when they and they don't apply a single bit of it like it's just it's very frustrating. Uh so I kind of try to gauge how serious you are about it before I invest my time. Because if you're just gonna you know not do anything with it then what's the point? But I but I am kind of an open book. I won't volunteer absolutely everything but if you ask me I'll tell you and that's uh that's like that's like the same thing that Tony did. And I kind of try to not that you know I'm I'm doing it because Tony did it I'm doing it because I I like and appreciate that. I really liked it. I know somebody else is gonna really like it. Uh and it's I'm confident enough in myself that if somebody wants to do that you know uh I'm gonna, you know, I'm I'm already focused on something else. I'm already focused on my work how I'm progressing how I'm pushing myself further coming up with my own new ideas. Like you were saying like I've got a million other ideas right behind this one. So go ahead have it like I'm just gonna keep going down my path not let that uh I don't know not uh not feel I don't know guarded about it guarded about kind of we're trying to I don't know I I'm all about you know sharing what I've learned and sometimes like with the laser for example Jared showed me the laser I immediately got one and I dumped hours and hours and hours into it and then I've convinced like eight other people to get them and then I'm like shit I've got to teach all these guys how to use this laser but it's so good. You know what I mean? And then they kind of go on their way and they're teaching themselves how to do it and they're working and it's helping them do cool stuff that I didn't think of doing with the laser. But uh so that's one of those examples where I was coming up with new ideas and new things and new ways to implement this tool that I haven't seen done before. Um and if somebody asks I'm I'm more than happy to share uh it's kind of letting go of any ego tied to that you know what I mean because I know it's gonna do good for the community and I don't know if I would feel the same way if it wasn't this particular community. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because I know that those guys would do the same for me. If I picked up the phone and called somebody and said how do you do that they're gonna tell me so I'm gonna do the same for that. And that's the kind of culture that I like because this was a dying like the traditional slip joints were dying and there's they're exploding again. And I think that's the heart of it uh you know being open with people sharing knowledge openly being super encouraging and wanting people to step their game up push themselves be creative and you know inspiring where you can uh and like there's a there's new young makers coming up making great stuff trying new things that I mean that's what we want to see right up until the last couple of years I was like the youngest knife maker not traditional knife maker for like eight years you know what I mean it's like finally I'm not the youngest but uh so it's good to see and I think that I mean that's part of it like for that that making slip joints group on Facebook there's tons of people on there tons and it's inspiring guys to make them and it's just because people are sharing their knowledge now I mean it can get annoying in there because you've got a bunch of tire kickers that'll ask you a million questions like where do you get your pin stock uh so it can that can get frustrating but if you've got the time you know um and you want to share the knowledge that's a great place to do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well uh Steve Steve Schwarzer uh told me he's like uh you know uh sharing knowledge like some people just take that and run with it and they uh they surpass him like he's been in park um the entire time you know like they just they take knowledge and they just like uh they consume it and it it's in a way that they um I mean they just do their own things. And and I you know the the the the reality is is that information like uh I guess being like uh giving and free about information is a double-edged sword right because on the one hand on the one hand uh you might be cutting your own throat but on the other hand you're providing a tool or a weapon for somebody else to be able to do um their thing. Um and you like I I agree it's like a it's a principle thing. It's like are you okay with the ramifications of it. And I think it's probably more like uh you have to be okay with um with what happens when you just you know when you do let the birds out of the nest you gotta uh you gotta be willing to understand that you're you you can't have an ego about it and you can't get butthurt after the fact like uh you know crying about um letting things go um a after the fact like and that's that's the way it is like um there's I've wanted to make um since the first time that I saw Bill Ruppel do it um the the axe handle um um what is it? Um so it's like uh him and uh Rick Dunkerly I believe uh kind of came up with it but it's the axe handle trapper and there is nothing that I do not like about that um about that that design like that pattern is like banging but um the only people that I know that make it is Bill Rupel Bobby House and I think Rick. And to me it's been mostly a a matter of respect to say you know I I really would really love to make it but it's it's his thing and um it's their thing. And if uh it's not really my place um to just say okay well I could replicate that um I there's enough profile shots and things like that that I could figure it out. It's more of a professional courtesy to say hey you know like as much as I admire it um maybe instead maybe instead what I'll do is I'll split the difference and I'll just buy one from one of them and actually you know have it to use and whatnot. I I'm mostly just interested in like the the look and the feel and and how it feels in the hand. It's a really great little uh little pattern and different too uh to the traditional market. I like things like that. And so um making is kind of like my homage to um uh to makers and to ideas. Uh it it if I can if I spend the time creating something It really is because I just think it's a super great thing. There's some things that are great ideas that I just don't think I could touch, but there are ways that I'm like, hmm, I I think I could probably do that. But it's a it it is not about money making. It's really about um honoring that thing uh through my own making and to see if I can if I can even do it. Um and and I don't know. I mean, it's it's a lot of there's a lot of back and forth um that I have in my mind sometimes about sharing too much, um, you know, being too forward, um, you know, how much how much innovation I'm doing in an area where people can see it and stuff. And then there's other ways where I'm like, um, at the end of the day, if you believe that things were infinitely worse when everybody was not sharing information and gatekeeping and everything, you got to be the person who also um is the change agent for that. You know, you got to break those, break those changes and you gotta kind of suck it up and just do it. And um I think the silver lining, again, like you said, is uh you get to see people uh that are doing stuff that's extraordinary and outside of the concept of what you thought was possible on that on that slip joint um uh and lockback making group on Facebook. It's been great to actually see people who have asked questions and have taken information. And then, you know, you see six months down the line, a year down the line, they they're making something, and you're like, man, like where did where did you come from? Like uh, like what you were asking and you were making like some really crappy knives. Like, I mean, honestly, they're just very crude. And then you just like something I don't know what happened, but I you know, then I see stuff that you post now, and I'm like, that's really great. Like, whatever you did, keep doing that thing because you you are the reason why you know we contribute towards this stuff, is because um you're you're taking it in a direction that is um is the kind of stuff that I like to see. And I and I do I do like that investment.
SPEAKER_03There is um I mean a lot of people have asked me to uh you know look at their work and kind of critique and give them pointers on where they could improve, where they can make adjustments quickly and then you know, and then I'll give them some tips on what to do. And it's really, really gratify to the next time you see them to see that they've applied that and see that improvement in their work, and it's like, man, I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that. Um and even though it might be, you know, uh seem a little bit backwards that you know why would I I appreciate somebody uh applying what I said to them? Because it's you know, you're actually you were serious when you asked me and you're showing me that you're serious not just showing me, but I'm seeing that you're uh serious about what you're doing. And that makes me want to uh contribute that much more. Um but going back to something that you mentioned before about the axe handle trapper and your hesitation to, you know, just make your own or whatever, that's another part of this uh part of this that uh that this culture that uh makes me more open to kind of sharing everything is that mutual respect that we have amongst each other and that kind of thing where there's like an unwritten rule where if you want to make somebody's pattern, you have to ask for that. And they have to give you permission to do it. And if somebody doesn't do that, they get their ass chewed out. And I've seen that happen multiple times. Or, you know, if somebody uh that makes it a culture where it keeps that kind of cycle going of being open to sharing your knowledge, but also having your uh your creativity respected and your um uh your ideas, you know, and still maintaining some ownership over that, and that that comes from uh outside of yourself, where you know somebody could just take it and run with it, but they still have the respect to let you keep that for yourself because it's kind of your thing, you know what I mean? Um and it it it breeds that it breeds that uh willingness to share and that openness and and all it does is help the industry that I mean I don't know, it it doesn't feel competitive like I you know I'm not out to be the greatest knife maker, you know what I mean? I'm gonna I'm out you know in the world, I'm out to be the greatest knife maker that I could ever be. Wherever the chips lay, you know, when however the let the chips uh fall where whatever the whole thing is, my brain is fried. Yes. Wherever that wherever I end up down that path, my goal is to make the best knife that I could possibly make. If I share some knowledge with somebody and they blow pass me, I'm happy to see it. I want to see it. You know what I mean? Because that somebody pushing this art uh further and going with it and running with it. And that's a good thing. I can't get, you know, uh my I can't let my ego be bruised because I see somebody better than me. I know I'm not, you know, I'll never be the greatest knife maker in the world. I'm not, you know, there's been better knife makers before me and there will be after me. I just need to be the best knife maker that I can be. Well that's you know, that's my goal. Uh not not everybody wants to do that. Uh it's just I'm uh half crazy, so yeah. I go for it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, we have some uh we have some puppies. Um unfortunate series of events uh led to us uh having 10 pit bull puppies uh a little over a year ago. And uh um we got rid of all of them except for three. Um and I guess they're permanent fixtures in our house now, um, apparently. Um so so I have learned from my wife. And um, you know, the something that is uh um a little bit irritating about them is that when I feed them, um sometimes they're more interested in what they're what's in their neighbor's bowl, and and sometimes to the point where they almost start fighting and they hate each other, right? And um what's more analogous about um like a craft, then you're more concerned about what's in your neighbor's bowl uh than the the plenty that you have in your own, and then you get into disagreements and things. It's a it's age-old inside of most crafts. It's possible and has happened multiple times inside of knives. Um, and I'd I'd really like to like avoid that because I really hate those dogs when they fight. Like they it it irritates the piss out of me. And uh and I do a lot of things to try to uh keep that stuff from happening. I want harmony. Um and uh, you know, uh speaking of like inspiration, I I went and did uh I at my own personal expense because of the research and uh anecdotal evidence I had, I went through and bought a bunch of the uh the knife guides uh back into the 80s. Um I think I did every every five years from 1985 or something somewhere around there up to um the 2000s, right? Uh you know, uh fairly recently. And what you can see from the data, um, data as in what comes out in print um is that probably the same five to six knife makers for 20 years has been the only ones to proliferate slip joints um in the industry, right? Um and you see you see some come up and then another year they just knock off. And I mean, of course I'm using five-year increments because it's like super expensive to buy all of them and to find them. Um, but um you have some knife makers that come up and then they kind of fall off and you never see them again. I tried to do research around them, they just don't exist, right? Um, and uh but the same staples, like you know, Tony Bowes, Bill Ruppel, a few other guys, um, you know, it's um um Shadley, um, a few of them are staples in making. And I can guarantee, because of everything that I've seen, that they're writing books, they're taking on protégés, they're sharing their knowledge freely, they're using social media as a as the mechanism to share their stuff, blade forums, everything like that. And now, because of that investment, now because of that um um attention to being free with information, uh, they can kind of rest on their laurels knowing that the next generation of knife makers is going to be able to carry this craft on. And there was, there was a, you know, you're right, it was a dying art. There was like not that many people that really cared that much about their grandfather's knife form, right? But now you have makers like you that are making it sexy, right? They're making they're bringing back the slip joint and doing things that are different, and it's broadening the horizons of of the art form and and that specific um artistic constraint in in slip joints of all things, right? And to me, it wouldn't happen if you didn't care a little less about yourself and a little more about the thing that you're trying to do. Um, that's where I hope like the Knifemakers Guild can uh correct, you know, course correct and to think more about like what that legacy is going to look like for the next generation. Because we can't really worry so much about ourselves anymore. Like our time is coming and it's going to pass quicker than we think. And we have to look towards the future. Whether that the um the adage is like um um it's something uh like the uh like if I think about it, like I can't remember what the actual words are, but it's like uh uh the the man who who plants a seed for the tree that he'll never enjoy its shade of. You know, like those are the kind of people that you want to be, like to look at the seeds that you plant for the next uh people, uh, you know, the the next the next to enjoy the shade of. Um that's that's looking at uh things in a cyclical but healthy way where you're investing in the future and you're propagating the seeds um of of future generations. And we will never know, even in the context of like us talkie, you never probably had any context that you're an inspiration to me in my early knife making uh journey. Um but um you you have been and you shared a lot of knowledge through your experiences just on social media, and we will never know, you know, four, five, six generations of knife makers down the road how much we affect them. But if we focus on the fact that it is worth investing in, uh to me, that is a beautiful part of knife making. And I would like to spend my life being able to propagate that for other people too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, I mean, it's it still kind of shocks me every time that somebody says that, you know, oh, I saw these old videos that you put up or that you were in that inspired me. I'm just like, oh my god, that's so weird. That's so weird to me. But um it's inspiring too. And it's uh it it really makes me happy to know that I have played like a little part in some guys' work that I look at now and I'm like, damn, that's so cool what they're doing. Like I love their work. Um and I love seeing them grow and and uh keep pushing it and uh just you know focusing on details and quality and coming up with their own new stuff, like uh uh Nick Timpson, uh Birdvis Knives. One of the first times I I spoke to him, he's like, Man, your videos and your tutorials back in the day inspired me. And I'm like, oh my god. And uh just you know it's it's really cool. And it knows it's it's it's uh it's really cool to know that just that little bit that I threw out there impacted somebody, you know, and uh is keeping this going.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean, humbly, I'm just a dipshit, right? Like I I you're you're I mean, we all hear these totally wasted on me. Like you you totally didn't reach me that much because I mean, like, whatever. I'm not even the first person that's created a knife podcast that's interviewing you to talk about your inspiration. Uh Jason Ritchie did that. So um how how derivative are we? I mean, this is like the wheels of uh time just keep turning, right? But um but even still, I I mean the point needs to be made. It's like you you know you'll never know. Uh you'll never know the the the inspiration that you are to other people uh is you know in that positive, like if you keep it positive and you um and you you just pay it forward, uh you'll never know.
SPEAKER_03It's so important. It's so important. And even you know, this conversation could uh you know influence somebody to start sharing their knowledge and impact somebody else and pay that forward and keep it going. It's crucial to what we do. It's crucial.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, kind of on that note, I think that that's actually a good stopping point. Um I've uh I've appreciated all the time that you spent. Um, I didn't really uh know that we'd be able to uh talk this long, mostly because of your schedule and you got uh a whole life that uh you're invested in is not not nice either. You got your wife and kids, right?
SPEAKER_03But um well, I told them I was done for the night.
SPEAKER_02I'm done with you kids. Yeah. Well, um I've gotta be I wanna be in a long conversation about it right.
SPEAKER_00But uh, you know, I I when I started doing this stuff, it was really just you know, I man, it really killed me. Um I I didn't get to meet A. G. Russell, even though I could have. And I didn't have the balls to talk to um um Tony Bowes, even though I could have. And then I thought, you know, like all these knifemakers um that are just, you know, maybe in their yester years or whatever. Um they, you know, they've they've they've lived with imposter syndrome syndrome so long that as they get older, it starts to be a confirmation bias. And I'm like, uh, I want to talk to them and just uh get the sound bite out into the ether so that way there's some some reference to them. Because, you know, you you think of Steve Johnson, you see his work everywhere, but even me, like I saw his work so much before I ever knew him. And I was like, dude, if this happens to me, uh imagine other people that are like don't even know what a loveless pattern is, right? Um, you know, the the Bill Ruppels of the world, um, you know, um the uh Bob Trizuolas, you know, yes, there's there's things out there of them, the little remnants of uh of past interviews or things, things of that nature. But there's not a lot that you really digs into, like, hmm, like if if you could like summarize what it is that you're trying to do and what made you create things, like you know, what is that? I'm interested. And um that's kind of turned into a really weird um I don't know where this thing is going, but I kind of enjoy the ride. And I don't know, you know, how long that'll be interesting to people, but it seems to be. Um, and I only do it because it's interesting to me. Uh, that's why I spend the time and energy. So maybe maybe the summation of my uh life in knives will be that um this trumps uh what I'm making, right? But this is like a thing that I'm making in knives.
SPEAKER_03Um you are you are making this, and it is valuable, and uh it's really cool. And I really appreciate the conversation, man. Uh I you know, I don't know if I would have volunteered a peek into my soul of why I do this out of the blue, you know what I mean? Um and yeah, it's really it is really cool. I I I I think about this stuff and I talk to other people about it, and uh like hearing a a conversation like this with Tony would have been awesome. You know not just for me, but I think for for everybody that's into this stuff.
SPEAKER_00And I think that uh you doing this is great. Yeah, well no, I'm I mean I appreciate you, man. I uh it does not go unnoticed um any time anybody comes on here and invests their time with me because I do recognize um that it is uh it's a it's something that you'll never get back. Um but I you know I hope that this is a snapshot in time uh of of that. And uh, you know, obviously any other time you want to come on the show, you're more than welcome to. But I I I also vampired uh a decent amount of time out of your life that you were not probably accounting for. So I kind of uh uh yeah, with that being said, uh thank you very much uh for being on the show. Uh it's a it's an absolute pleasure. I will not be into land now, um, but I'll probably see you to turnaround time in Texas. Um and you know, I'll always be a fly on the wall checking out your stuff and and cheering you on. So I'm I'm a humongous fan, and I really do um appreciate everything that you bring to the industry. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_03Stay in touch.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you were loved and God bless you.
