SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Darren LeBier, and join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about anything and everything done. Point blank, Sean Shropshire is a cool dude. If it wasn't for the Oklahoma Knife Group, I probably would have less experience in his work and his personality. But that's the great part of knife groups and associations. They sometimes bring together unlikely characters and strengthen the bond of us in this conglomerate we know as knife making. Sean has spent the last 20 plus years making knives and makes some of the raddest frontier-style knives and sheaths out there. He started The Wandering Bladesmith with Deke Parker to showcase knives around the world, and as president of the OKG, he and a magnanimous group of volunteer board members and associates pushed the show, shop meets, and other activities in the greater Oklahoma area and adjoining states. What can one really say about a person's knives without digging into them as people? This episode isn't enough to cover Sean. He's larger than life. But I really think you'll understand why his charisma and passion drive his work in knives. And Sean, it's good to have you on the Good Old Blades podcast. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. Yeah, absolutely. Um so uh, you know, the uh the impetus for uh this interview obviously is to get to know you better as a craftsman and everything, but kind of a dual purpose is to also um is to also explain and to highlight some of the work that the Oklahoma Knife Group has been doing uh in with knife making in the region and whatnot. And so uh first I I think I I'd like to spend some time getting to know you and your your craftsmanship and whatnot and talk you know through some of your fortune fire experience and whatnot. And then after that, we can start talking a little bit more about the Oklahoma knife group and kind of what um what makes that special? Sounds good to me. Yeah, so um what what got you into into knife making and kind of can you explain a little bit about the journey from you know start to where you're at right now in inside of knives?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yes, definitely. So it's interesting. I was asked this question earlier today also. Uh how did you get started in knife making? And I was with another maker, and uh we both kind of looked at each other and and it's like, well, I'm not sure how to answer that. Uh, but I think it all started with the very first pocket knife my father bought me. Uh he was uh career army, and we were at the shop at which is the military version of like a 7-Eleven, and they had a small uh knockoff of the Swiss Army knife with the white celluloid handle, and I actually still have that knife, and from the time I got that, I was just fascinated with knives. Uh you know, years and years later, um I loved art all through school, uh, but making a living as an artist is not a very easy thing to do. And so I ended up in another career, and while I was there, I met someone else who made knives. Uh started out like a lot of people buying a pre-made knife blank, putting a handle on it, enjoyed that, and then eventually progressed to the point I'm at now, uh thanks to the help of a lot of makers. Uh probably if I had to say how long I've been making knives, I would guess around 20 years, but I there's no specific date that I can say this is when I started.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

That makes sense. I I am uh it's interesting to me because our generation of of knife makers now uh pull from early influences like our you know, our grandfathers or or or fathers or whatever had uh some type of collection. There's some there's usually some familial tie or something to do with Boy Scouts and and and whatnot. Like but it it it kind of interests me, like a lot of uh people of our generations um uh had exposure to knives, but not all of them turned into knife makers. Do you think like what what drove you? Like, I mean, is there anything specifically other than just a a general interest that really um I don't know, sparked that flame for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Well, I my entire childhood growing up, uh, and still, I I mean I love everything outdoors hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, all of it. Uh and the knife is just a basic tool for all of that. Um and I think all of us, every time we use any type of tool, whether it's a knife, uh a firearm, a hammer, a screwdriver, uh, there's always something you wish was just a little bit better or a little bit different or suited better to your personal uses. Uh and through that, you know, you you get what you think is a great knife, and you use it a few times. It's like this would be just a little bit better if I could make this different or that different. And so I think that influences it some. And you were talking about our generations. Uh my grandfather uh was a he was a roofer for 45 or 50 years, and always had an old timer pocket knife. Uh sometimes he swapped it out for a shred, but it was sharpened with a a sandstone rock that he got out of the driveway that he grind flat. And watching him with that, uh butchering animals, you know, using it on the farm, using it as a tool. Uh you always look up to those people and you want to emulate that to some extent. Uh so I think there's that that connection with uh it it's something that a lot of us used a lot more than than many others. And that might have something to do with with why we ended up making rather than just buying. And I also think that that uh for a lot of us, uh especially if you do forging, um need a tool, make a tool. You know, if uh we need a specific tool in the shop and it's not easily available or readily available, we just make one. And so that's similar with knives. If we have an appropriate piece of steel and I need a knife, well, it just seems logical to go ahead and make one if I have the materials to do it. And so I think that's why a lot of us ended up uh making the knives or tools that we needed. And then some people progress beyond that and have that artistic inclination. They want to create things, they want to build something uh that's not just a pure tool, but also has some artistic influence or design elements that we enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, um I I agree because I I'd use knives for forever, um, you know, much much like you. And one one time, well, it was kind of like the uh uh the paradigm shift for me was uh I'd hunted a lot and I was always used to crappy knives, and I could maybe skin an animal or something like that, and then the thing would be dull, sometimes mid, mid-clean, like field dressing something. And it kind of got to a point where uh you know this the straw that broke the camel's back. I was a I was in West or in uh South Texas uh hunting nil guy on a uh Texas draw hunt. And uh those things are pretty big. I mean, I had a small cow size uh nil guy, um, and uh I think I I was sitting there instead of enjoying the process of cleaning my own game. I had two buddies that I was hunting with that also drew, and uh they were cleaning the nil guy, and I was the one that was the most efficient at uh sharpening knives. So I was sharpening their knives while they were cleaning my my nil guy. And I was like, you know, we're done with this. Like I'm gonna I'm gonna I like I'm I'm either gonna buy something real nice or make something. And I made the foolish decision to start making knives uh because I I could have I could have had hundreds of knives in my collection by now from really great knife makers if I would have decided to invest in buying versus building, but uh um I've enjoyed the I've enjoyed the journey.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

It's absolutely uh what we invest in tools and time could certainly purchase more, but but there's that self-satisfaction of learning the skill, creating. Uh I tell people I'm a terrible businessman, uh, but I have to sell knives to be able to make more knives. And it's the creative process for me that's the most fun. Uh getting to design something, build something. Uh when someone calls me and says, Hey, you know, I want to buy a knife for my husband, they think it's a simple question, you know, do you have a knife for sale? And then I start asking, okay, you know, what does he do? What is he going to do with the knife? You know, does he hunt? Does he fish? Does he hike? Boating, uh, saltwater, freshwater, right-handed, left-handed. And it's I often get the kind of blank stare, well, I didn't know I needed to know all of that. It's like, well, I mean, you can buy a simple knife and not have to answer any of those questions, but I want to make something that he's going to enjoy or that she's going to enjoy for years to come. It's not just going to end up sitting on a shelf. Uh you're mentioning that nil guy hunt, you know, I that's been one of my dream hunts for years. I would love to get to do that. But you know, that's a large animal and with a tough hide. Uh a similar experience is uh wild hogs. We have a a lot of wild hogs, you know, Oklahoma, Texas, in the south. And uh people don't realize how aggressive the hide, the hair, the dirt, and everything that's on their hide is on a knife blade. And uh myself and a couple of other knife makers uh were eradicating some hogs at one time, and I think we ended up shooting 21 in a day, and we had a variety of our knives laid out there so we could test all of them out, and all of the meat we would we donated to families in need, but uh but we tested I don't know, 12 or 14 knives that day, and uh it's amazing what you can learn when you're actually using it versus just theory.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Um uh that's a lot, that's a lot of hog. I mean, I I think in one time maybe I've I've cleaned like four. Um, but to go through that many hog, um you really I mean I I don't know a single knife that would withstand 20 some uh hog because I mean I agree their their hides everyone's a little bit different. I've I've hunted hog in a lot of different seasons and you know, Sal and Bohr, and it seems like the the the the texture of the skin and the hair and what they're what they've been in with you know whether they're wallering and stuff, uh all seems to affect the uh the way that you address cleaning it. Um and I I uh uh I'm always interested in field testing things, but I don't I don't hunt as much as I used to, uh so it's kind of difficult. So I'm always looking for customer feedback too, because I mean, reality is is that if if I have a knife that doesn't perform well in the in the field, uh because you know I have I have made it theoretically instead of practically, uh then I'm usually like that, well, that's kind of like a warranty job or something, like let me fix that and uh and do something a little bit different. But it's that continuous feedback loop um that I I think is really important in craftsmanship because you really do um you you get a worldview of of your design principles and blade geometry and things like that um from other people as well. And and I I find that uh more beneficial than if I just try to make knives in a vacuum.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Absolutely. The the feedback we have to be honest with ourselves as makers too. We do make mistakes, you know. Um what seems like a good idea on paper and what looks good on a knife in the field may be a terrible idea. And if we can't get out there to use it, we need that feedback from our customers. And and like I said, we just have to be honest with ourselves. Okay, it seemed like a good idea, but it didn't turn out that way. Uh everybody's always pursuing the the next best thing, you know, some great blade pattern or shape or whatever it might be. And uh there's a finite number of things that we can do with a piece of steel. So uh putting it all together as a as a total package, uh, you know, heat treat, geometry, materials, uh, and then getting that feedback, it's it's really important. If you're not pursuing that feedback, I mean you're you're doing your customers a disservice.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah. So what um um when when you started making uh knives, were you doing stock removal or uh bladesmithing or kind of like what what was your idea of the what like what worked best for you starting out?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Originally, like I said, it was just buying pre-made blanks and and putting the handles on. So I I was building a knife, but not actually making it. Uh from there I met a uh gentleman known very well in this area by the name of George Ingelbretson, and he's since passed away quite a few years ago, but uh he was kind of a grumpy old man, and uh I would go to his shop and just bug the crap out of him, and he would let me do some things, and that progressed, and it was just stock removal. That's all he did. He he was a stock removal guy, he didn't believe in what he called womping. He said, That's too much work, and I'm just not gonna do it. Uh so he didn't do any forging. If he wanted Damascus, he had one particular uh maker that he bought his Damascus billets from, and so he was teaching me stock removal methods and handle assembly and fit and finish. And I walked into his shop one day and he threw me out. And I at first I thought he was joking, uh, but he he no, he was adamant, just get out, just leave my shop, don't come back. And I was like, okay, what did I do? He said, if you're not gonna get serious about this and go buy your own grinder and get your own tools and start doing this, then stop wasting my time. And so I left. I went home and I ordered a Bader grinder. And uh I mean they they're still very expensive, but at the time it was a significant investment for me. And I came back and I showed him the the order form that I turned uh sent off, and he said, All right, get your apron, let's get busy. And he put me back to work. And that was just the way he was. He he was just a uh grumpy old guy and he he is very sorely missed. Uh from there I started meeting other makers and visiting their shop, and uh there used to be a group called the old man group, that's what I named them. Every day they'd meet for coffee and I'd go by as often as I could. And through that group I met other makers in this area. Uh another maker from Oklahoma named Mike Miller was moving and asked me to come out and help him move some of his equipment and load it up, and so I went out and we were loading everything, and he said, Do you see the forge over there? I said, Yeah, he said, put that in your truck because I'm not doing that anymore. That's too much work. I said, Okay, great. So I loaded up his forge and and brought it back to the house and had never attempted to forge at all. Uh I learned very quickly that it's more than just hitting a piece of metal. Uh there's a lot of nuance, and I would have benefited greatly by attending one of the schools that are now available, uh, or hammer-ins. Um there there's so much more instructional opportunity than there was 20 years ago, or even 10 or 15 years ago. And I can remember the first time I tried doing Damascus or the the period where I was trying to, I just assumed if it's if it's not sticking, you just have to hit it harder. Well, that's that's not how that works. There's a lot more to it than that. And uh that progressed, and I I've told this story before. Uh one of my first knife shows was The Central State's Hammer Inn, uh, which started with Gary Mulkey in Branson, Missouri. And it's at it was at Shepherd of the Hills, and I was set up next to Lynn Ray while he was still at Journeyman Smith. And uh Brian Tomberlin, uh, who's uh one of the ABS board members now, came up to me and he said, Hey, would you like to come down and forge some knives with me and some of the other guys? Well, I mean, of course I'm gonna say yes. Who's who's gonna turn that opportunity down? And for anyone not familiar with Shepherd of the Hills, it's an amusement park in Branson, which is a entertainment type city or town. And so he walked off, and a few minutes later they announce over the the loudspeaker of the park that I'm about to be doing a a uh forging demonstration for anyone that would like to come watch me. I had no idea what I was doing, and they had set me up and thought it was hilarious. And I showed up down there, it's like, I guys, I don't know what I'm doing. And uh one of them said, That's all right, they don't either. He said, just follow what we do. And so Brian would narrate for me and tell the crowd, okay, I don't know what Sean's going to do next, but here's what I would do. And I would tell him, Yeah, that's exactly what I was planning to do, and and just followed his instructions. And that was my first public forging, uh, and then continually progressed um until I did Forged and Fire on on kind of a bet with my son. And it's just continued to grow and the opportunities have grown. Uh, I've been so fortunate to meet so many people that have helped me. Um the the whole community is just awesome.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah, and um with your forged and fire experience, um, if I recollect, you actually uh you actually won Forge and Fire, correct?

SPEAKER_00 18:41

I did. I was fortunate enough to win my episode, yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

So I mean that's uh it's interesting, uh the like the trial by fire, um, and you know, in in the sense of uh blacksmithing and everything that you've gone through. I uh uh sometimes sometimes I think that we hate uh resiliency and and having to adapt, but in in some ways it is one of the best uh methods for learning because we have to like very quickly get out of our comfort zone if we uh if we want to uh swim versus sink.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

It's uh forged in fire for me was that outside my comfort zone uh quite a bit. Uh I'm retired law enforcement, so I I tell people I spent my entire career trying to stay off of camera, uh stay off of the news, you know, and then to go on a television show where there are cameras literally everywhere around you was dramatically different for me. Uh but my son was I think he was getting a B in one of his classes, and and he asked me, so if I can bring that up to an A, will you will you apply for the show? And of course I agreed because I I assumed I would never even be considered for the show. And then ended up going on the show and and it was a fun experience, but but I remember uh one particular part during the filming where I had a warp in my blade and one of the cameramen comes sliding in on his knees, trying to get a shot from the end of my knife blade, and I kept moving my blade about four inches one way, and he would move over and I move it back four inches the other way. I didn't want him to see how warped it was and uh trying to hide it from him. But you know, they've got cameras everywhere, and so they catch everything. But the but the whole experience was great. Uh I still keep in touch with with the other guys that were on my episode. Um I see the judges periodically at different events and get to talk to them. So it's it's been a great experience for me.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah. I mean, from the from the outside looking in uh to the forged and fire uh culture and everything. Um there's there's obviously two ways that I look at it. One is that forged and fire has been really great for the knife making community because it's proliferated a lot of a lot of everything that we just didn't have before, you know, like uh I mean there's more manufacturers of of forged goods, there's more anvil availability in some ways, um, there's more knowledge sharing and everything like that. But then there's also this saturation of the market because it's made something that was kind of fringe seem really cool, and now it's like you know, artisanal and everybody wants to do it. Um what uh what do you what do you think that the aftermath of Fortune Fire is? Like um when you went on there, obviously you won. Um what what did the what did the after look like? Did you notice that there was like increased orders or attention or uh validation that's come out of that experience for you?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

I think a lot of it is what you make of it. You know, it everyone that watches the show and everyone's a fan of the show, uh I still enjoy you know everything about it, but it in the end of at the end of the day, it's a game show. There are a lot of incredible artists, uh craftsmen that go on the show and don't do well in the competition. And there are a lot that aren't as good that end up winning. Uh winning or losing is not a good gauge of of someone's uh competence level as a as a knife maker. Uh it's a game show. But it's an it's for fun. You know, if you're watching Forge and Fire to learn how to make knives, you really need to progress beyond that and look at other avenues. Watch it for entertainment. There are some things to be learned from it, but it's an entertainment venue. After winning, uh there was a lot of uh recognition of that. Uh I was in season five, and I think they're in season ten or eleven now. Uh so there's you know a lot of people that have been on the show now compared to then. And I was even out of state once and was recognized as having been on the show. So it's a very popular entertainment. Uh I can remember right after I went on and it was announced and and everything, and my show aired, I had a uh banner that I helped uh put up behind my table at shows. A little while later, I made a little sign that I hung off the front of my table. A little while after that, I had a little 8x10 sign that I put on the table. And it's progressively gotten smaller and smaller because as much as I enjoyed the show and have enjoyed everything that happened from it, I'd like to be known for what I make and not being on an entertainment show. Uh you're very, very right that the the show has uh brought it into the mainstream and has saturated the market. Uh some ways good, some ways bad. Uh it's a very controversial thing amongst a lot of makers. A lot of the older makers are not fond of it, but we wouldn't have this younger generation doing it now if it weren't for the popularity of the show. So if we want this to continue and grow, I think it's been a very, very good thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah, it's kind of like uh that quote, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Um I uh I I d yeah, I don't know. I I mean I I get kind of crotchety about um about things like that. And I don't know whether it's like um I I I think like the the the the late Gen Xer um type of um culture backwards um tends to be hipsters in some ways. It's like you know, we like we were doing that before it was cool and whatever, right? Um and it's kind of easy sometimes to get into a modality where um we either discourage or dislike um people actually being excited in the stuff that we're doing. But I I I can think of like all these times um where I've seen this happen because I haven't been making knives like that long um compared to you and compared to those who are like pre-Fortune and Fire. Um, but that wasn't the reason why I got into it. Um and mo I I think most people would like uh for knives to be uh like there to be a value proposition to the custom and handmade knives. And Fortune Fire did give us that. There's a lot more attention being put on craftsmen and and the quality of work. Um where where it's kind of interesting is there's um there's a little bit of a paradigm where um where forged work is being valued higher than stock removal work. And there's kind of like this little bit of um um indust industry validation, I guess, that uh people uh value, like the forge blade versus the uh versus the stock removal blade. And I've always been kind of interested in that. Like, you know, I've I've had customers that have like come up and looked at uh knives or whatever it shows and things and said, Well, did you forge this yourself? I'm like, no, stock removal. Put the knife down and they walk away and find somebody that fits that criteria for them. So um it's never it's never really bothered me because I know that the you know the craftsmanship level that goes into stock removal too, but there's always a little bit of like angst on you know whether you're going to be competing against a forge blade or a stock removal blade um for for those dollars.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

It's uh it's the old Ford versus Chevy argument, you know, all over again. Um I tell people if you want to start an argument at a knife show, find someone who forges sitting next to someone who does stock removal and ask both of them at the same time which one is a better method. Uh you'll and then just step back with your popcorn and watch the watch the drama unfold. But uh the way I explain it to people, every blade that I forge, that steel comes from a mill. It's been forged or rolled out at the mill before it comes to me. Then I forge it, and when I finish forging, I still go to the grinder and clean everything up. And every knife that goes through the stock removal method, that steel comes from a foundry where it was forged and rolled out. So they're both going through similar processes. Uh stock removal, uh the the benefit to me is there's less opportunity to uh mess up the steel. Heating uh over and over at really high temperatures, you can damage that steel pretty significantly if you don't uh mitigate that after forging. Uh the drawbacks are obviously you lose more material. You don't have the way to conserve material like you can by forging, and you're limited to uh the dimensions of the material that you start with. Uh forging, I enjoy it because I tell people it's like playing with hot play-doh. Anything you can do with a with a handful of clay or play-doh, you can do with hot steel. You just can't touch the steel. So you can manipulate it, move it, shape it however you want, uh, but then I still go to the grinder afterwards. So it's kind of a to me the argument doesn't make a lot of sense. Um I can forge out a knife, take it to the surface grinder, clean it up, grind my bevels in, and when I'm finished, you can't tell any difference between that and a stocker mobile knife. They would look identical. You know, the only difference is I saved some material. Um so it's the Ford vs. Chevy argument all over to me. The the bigger argument is why should I buy your knife for this you know, this much money when I can go to Walmart and get a knife for $20. Now that one used to really upset me because I put a lot of time and effort into these blades, and for someone to compare you know something that's several hundred dollars that I've poured myself into to a $20 Walmart knife, I would kind of puff my chest up and and get offended and try to you know argue with them about it. And then I was talking to uh the owner of a company, a knife company, well-known knife company, one day, and and he said, Well, he compared it to cars. I I I prefer the museum analogy. When you go to a museum and you walk in and there's a beautiful oil painting on the wall, you can appreciate that oil painting. You know the time and effort that went into it, you look at it and you enjoy it. When you walk out of the museum, you go through the gift shop, and oftentimes they'll have a poster of that same painting. A lot of people, most people, prefer to pick up that poster and they're happy with that poster. That's the Walmart knife. And if you're happy with the poster, by all means go buy the poster, use it and enjoy it. I sell the oil painting, I sell the original. That's what we as craftsmen do, is we make the originals and then places like Walmart sell the sell the posters. Uh and when I realize that the person wanting to buy the poster or the Walmart knife, they're not my customer. You know, what we make is a luxury item. People don't need to buy a handmade, handcrafted custom knife. They can go to Walmart or the hardware store and and pick up a knife that will cut. Not as well. But if everybody wanted the top-tier tools, we wouldn't have places like Harbor Freight. So once I realized that and started focusing on what I wanted to create, it took a lot of that angst out of it for me.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah, and that's well put. I mean, you know, I was thinking back to um forge versus stock removal, and you know, there's a lot of squabbles that happen in inside of the industry that probably, you know, if if maturity and thought um was abound, we probably wouldn't have those. So, you know, like plenty of infighting. But um I was talking with Lynn Ray Um as part of the podcast, and you know, I I I haven't I haven't gotten into forged versus uh blacksmithing uh arguments because I don't know, like for me it doesn't really matter. But um and and I say it doesn't matter, I I say I say it doesn't matter mostly that I don't uh personally find it offensive. Um but uh the reality is when we choose a specific methodology, we force constraint. And that's what you know uh Lynn and I were were kind of talking about inside of where he has gone with with his uh bladesmithing, is that he he creates constraints and sees if he can make something out of those things. Like, you know, if if you're and it's the same way with Forge and Fire, I mean, they give you very specific constraints to see if that can trip you up or how adaptable you are to those things. So if it's like, you know, uh, you know, roller bearings or races or uh spring steel or something like that, and you can only have these things, um it creates it creates drama or tension because of those constraints. Well, it it really is no different when you take a step back and look at stock removal. Um there are some constraints like there, like integral bolsters inside of stock removal. The only way that I can do that is to take a much larger piece of steel and mill or stock remove down in order to get those uh get those features. And in blacksmithing, integral bolsters, um, you know, as long as you understand the techniques and how to manipulate the steel, um, is a little bit more dynamic and intuitive process. Like you're you're already doing that in forging a blade, adding a integral bolster is really just a constraint um on how you move the metal versus uh um or uh or upset it versus um having to waste a bunch in stock removal. So like to me, I just think more about that. Like that's the reason why I don't ever stick um religiously to stock removal because there's some things that I'm like hmm, like bladesmithing offers me some avenues to play and to um and to figure out things and to express myself in a in a medium um and a constraint system that to me makes more sense to do it in in blacksmithing and bladesmithing versus stock removal, if all that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Absolutely. And Lynn is I mean, he's at the top of the game as far as as using the materials, you know, to to their full extent. Um and and watching someone like Lynn uh forge is a treat. If anybody gets the chance to go watch him or or any other uh you know, really, really good uh person that forges, absolutely go do it, even if you're just into stock removal. Just watching a craftsman like that who's great at what they do, it's just so much fun. And it just watching some of the techniques and some of the subtleties, you can bring that back home and and use it and learn from it. Uh and and you're right. Um but it goes both ways too. Uh there are times in bladesmithing, forging, where you have to do more stock removal. Um I remember I did a an integral Persian dagger uh a couple of years ago, and I wanted the Damascus pattern a certain way on the on the bolster area, and the only way to keep that was a full tang integral bolster with really, really deep hollow grinds. The only way to do that was stock removal. If I had tried to manipulate it, I would have changed the pattern. So I don't think you can be a knife maker uh and not incorporate a little bit of one or the other. If you're doing all of your own heat treating and everything, you that's the reason you know I don't have one single hammer. There there's not one method or one way that works for everything. Um we just have to keep trying different different things and exploring and and playing with ideas, and that's that's one of the exciting things for me is a little bit of a transition in topic here, but uh we've talked about uh the different generations of makers. I can remember uh there was a certain technique that came out several years back, and the older makers said, Well, you can't do that while looking at the end product of a new maker who had done that. And they're like, Well, you can't. And it's like, but there it is, they did it. They didn't know they couldn't do it, so they just figured out a way around the problems and did it. So both generations, both the older and the newer, can learn from each other if if we'll stay open-minded. Uh there's so much new technology that 20 years ago didn't exist. You know, we didn't have access to 3D printers uh to be able to do some of the mosaic Damascus that we do today. Uh we didn't have access to the EDM systems that they do and and have these elaborate little pins that the the technology just blows me away. And I'm I'm pretty naive when it comes to that kind of stuff, but I can look at something and appreciate it for what it is. Uh and like I said, if you're open-minded, you can learn from almost anyone, even if you don't like their work, their style, their finish, whatever, listen to what they have to say, and if there's nothing there, fine. But if there is, glean what you can use and take it back with you.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah, I mean, I I agree with that. It's like uh if you're if you were if you were uh a disciple or if you were a person on the the the mount listening to Jesus, right? Um not everybody took away the same message. Not everybody went out into the world and and uh uh and evangelized, not everybody, um not everybody heard the same thing. Um it's no different in any any of the philosophies or uh teaching methods or whatever. And we, you know, there there are some ideas that coalesce, but others that that uh disseminate amongst the masses and change the dynamic of how we think about things. And um uh I, you know, uh I encounter the same thing in technology where you know there are certain disciplines of you know, networking or security or systems administration, or things that I've um I've experienced in some way, shape, or form in my career, and then I'll hop into a different medium and like the work demands that I think outside the box. And it's really easy for me to think outside the box when I don't know that there was a box to begin with. So then so then things that are abstract thoughts um uh to me then become very practical um in some applications because I can innovate in a space that um everybody's just kind of conformed to what that norm is, and and I can you know think a little bit outside of that. And ignorance is is sometimes as powerful as like a deep knowledge. Um but you know, there's um I'm reminded uh that one of the best examples I can think of of a of a single knife maker um in this space is um Steve Schwarzer. He always seems to have that um that uh childlike interest uh where things are not impossible until everything's been like uh extinguished uh and and tried. And he's constantly embracing new technology and new new methodologies. And it's been interesting, especially with the newer group of makers and Damascus and everything like that, to come in uh because he can actually trade some of the caveats of you know, like wire EDM and and doing mosaics and stuff because he's always a pioneer in that area. And then 3D printing comes out, he's like, that's what we're doing next, and then gets a consortium together and starts you know playing around with that and and providing his uh fundamentals uh knowledge, what he what he used to help create that thing, and then help them to get it even further than they did conceptually before. So I mean I think embracing um change and embracing new ways of thinking is is uh is a step in our like um uh thought evolution that is really uh beneficial to all.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Absolutely. It it it's hard to do. You know, we get used to doing things a certain way, uh, using certain materials, uh and we get comfortable. And uh going back a little bit to Forge and Fire, everybody was comfortable with things pre-forged and fire. We had our own groups, we were familiar with who was in our groups, and everybody was happy. And then Forge and Fire came along, and this whole new generation of people were exposed to what we do, and they all wanted to be a part of it, and some people thought that was great, like we said, and some people looked at it and it's like, well, you're not part of our group, you know, and you're making this uncomfortable for me now. Uh so yeah, we we have to learn from everybody, and and change is not always a bad thing, it's not always a good thing, but it's not always a bad thing. Uh we have not just the tools and the technology, but materials. Uh you know, the metallurgy, the steel that we have access to, like easy access to now. Uh that you know, 20, 30 years ago you had to guess, you had to test your steels. Um known sources were not you couldn't just hop on the internet, uh give a supplier a call and tell them I want XYZ steel in these dimensions, and it's on your doorstep two days later. You know, it it's a different world, so in some ways good and in some ways bad than it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah. Um yeah, I I kind of well it it's forced it's forced me to rethink and reevaluate um the reasons why I make knives too to some extent. Uh because uh I don't know if you notice this, but there are some knife makers that come onto the scene and maybe they have a few years um experience, like you know, less than five, and they're making some extraordinary things. And uh and and so they they have the competitive um like they they then automatically become competitors in you know finer handcrafted uh knives and whatnot. And then and then you you also have to contend with the fact that if the if everybody like if everybody are competitors in the space, what is it that I do or what is it that I um I like the the way that I think about things that makes me different in some ways? Because sometimes we can't always compete on quality. Sometimes we can't always compete on the specific style that we make or whatever. Um, you know, there's always uh there's always uh people that kind of muscle into that because of their interests and maybe they're better in some ways. And it's made me think more about uh, I guess, the esoteric side of knife making and the and what I derive uh from the craft in terms of joy and validation for my own um my own exploration into it. And I d I can't say even though I I've I've had a little bit of angst at times um or you know uh existential crises as it were, um, I think it's been good for my growth because I've I've matured in a way that I don't think that I would have if I could have just been in my group and doing my things and never had that pressure.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Well you if you want to grow, you have to start doing things that are uncomfortable. You know, I think all of us started out doing a full tang knife with slab handles. And there's and some people that's all they do. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But if you want to provide progress, eventually you're gonna have to do uh bolsters, uh taper the tank, do a hidden tank. You know, uh one of the most frustrating parts for me is fitting up a guard uh to ABS standards. You know, it I look at a guard and my own my own work is what I'm talking about. I look at a guard and I see garbage. You know, I see the every single flaw, scratch, imperfection, and another maker looks at it and looks at me like I've lost my mind because they don't see the same things I do. But it different makers are at different points in their travel in their their progression through this craft. And you commented on competition. There's two ways to do things. You and I can compete against each other as makers and I can try to win your customers over to me and you can try to win my customers over to you or we can collaborate with each other and come up with a better product that serves both of our customers. And that's what I would rather do. I would rather you know if somebody comes to me and they want a knife that I just don't like to make I don't like doing gut hooks. I I'm not a fan of of how they look they're difficult in my opinion to make work properly but there are a lot of guys that enjoy making them and do a good job of it. If somebody comes to me and says hey I want this type of knife with a gut hook you know what I don't like doing that but let me send you to two or three other makers I know that do they do a good job. Now I've taken that off of my plate and I'm not making something I don't enjoy the customer is is getting exposed to new makers that they may not have known and getting a product that he wants and those other makers are now spreading out and and finding a new customer base. I tell people no is a full sentence. You know if somebody wants you to do something that you're not comfortable with or you don't have the experience with or for whatever reason you just don't want to no I'm I'm sorry I just don't do that. You know starting out I wanted to please everyone I took commissions on on job on life projects that I just didn't want to do but but I also didn't want to tell anyone no and I've been fortunate enough to progress to a point now where I can tell someone you know that that's just not something I'm comfortable doing for whatever reason and hand that off to someone else. And and going back to the the full tang slab handle story uh reminds me of something I had to I had to be honest with myself several years ago I was exhibiting at Blade Show in Atlanta and had worked tirelessly for weeks and weeks to have product to put on my table and I think over the whole I think uh three days that we were there I sold two knives and was just you know absolutely crushed by the end of it. You know here I've poured my heart and soul into this and I sold two knives. And so I I kind of looked you know at my my work and I had to be honest everything on my table you could walk around the show and pick two knives off of 80% of the tables in that room put them all on the same table and there was no difference in them. They were all full tank slab handles no bolsters no guards no tapered tanks uh nothing special at all about them and there are over a thousand makers at that show if everybody only brought five knives that's 5,000 knives in the same room and you know there's a lot more than that so the fact that anybody chose two of mine out of those 5,000 I should have been very happy about. The following year I came back I think I had six or seven knives was all I brought but they were knives that I wanted to make that I enjoyed they were my style and they did not look like everything else in the room. And I ended up selling three before the doors ever opened and I might have come home with one of those that week had my largest sale ever and had more fun because I was talking to people about something I enjoyed not just uh factory work not just pumping out numbers of knives but pumping out things that I liked and and meant something to me. So you you kind of have to be honest with yourself you know shows are a hard sale um it's like selling a car at a car show you know selling a knife at a knife show is it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

And there's a reason it's called a show and not a sale yeah I uh I agree I've I've had the same problems like a uh Blade Show Texas um not too long ago I didn't sell any knives at the show um and what what's kind of weird about that and you and you know it's like um it's one of the reasons why I started this podcast is to try to unveil it's uh one of the reasons why I tried to um you know unveil some of the behind the scenes stuff of knives that I've learned is that a lot of people uh consider not selling as a failure. And um and I don't really um there's lots of different ways that I look at it but you know I didn't sell anything at the show and ended up selling knives after the show like immediately after it's because people were waiting in the ring wings uh respectfully um for me to finish doing my show and then you know if there was anything left they were the ones that wanted to buy it. And you know like uh I don't think that's a sale is the litmus test for success and I've had to mature into that. I think that maybe some of uh some of that rhetoric comes from uh how expensive a show is so if you sell a show then that goes into the well I've uh I've recouped my loss or my investment in the show um and you know you you kind of go through a lot of these um again existential type of crises when you're doing stuff like that it it adds a it adds a a a different level of um thought and determination and things uh in order to make things successful like I I mean I I've um I've tried different like testing out different things at shows like um is does does sitting down and at your table or standing up make a difference? Does engaging every person that comes through or allowing them just to look and peruse does that make a difference you know um you know all these different kinds of marketing and sales tactics and um after this many years of doing shows I'm still as confused about like what actually uh facilitates a sale versus not and so I've I've really just tried to go with whatever I have uh to have fun to engage with people and you know those those few people that want to sit and talk and understand more about knives and maybe that informs their decision for the next time um I'm more than happy with that investment rather than looking at um you know did this thing leave my table because you know eventually they they'll all sell um in in one way shape or form or um I'll donate some of them like if I have extra extra knives and I don't have a show coming up I'll just donate something to a good cause. There's a few uh veteran organizations that will auction that knife off for far more than I could ever get on a table and it'll go for a good cause and for me that's just as beneficial um to I guess my my ego or my spirit as it is you know uh probably even more so than actually selling that knife at a show I really do like uh donating things for good causes yeah it's shows are a tough deal uh uh I think for us as craftsmen because as I mentioned earlier I'm not a businessman I've had to learn to live in the business world because if you want to stay in this market and keep doing this you have to sell things you know you can't just make everything and give it away but there are opportunities like that and that's a marketing uh strategy is the donating and it does make us feel better.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Uh one of the organizations that I work with quite a bit and the Oklahoma knife group is pairing with this year is the uh Toby Keith started a deal here in Oklahoma called the OK Kids Corral that benefits the families of children fighting cancer. And I've been donating to that for probably five years or so now and that's opened a lot of doors. You know I've donated some pretty significant numbers of knives that have been auctioned off but it benefits them it helps me and I've gotten sales because of that. You know people that didn't know who I was saw those knives and contacted me. And in the same way at a show I've seen both sides of the the spectrum there. I've seen makers come in with one or two knives and if they sell them great and if not they don't care. You know they're just having a good time they're seeing their friends and they're being exposed to a customer base that wouldn't otherwise find them. Then the other side of that is I've also watched makers who are afraid to take 10 feet take take 10 steps away from their table because they could potentially lose a sale and I've actually heard people tell me I have to sell two and a half more knives to break even and then anything over that's profit and then run back to their table because somebody's walking near it. And I can't I can't do that. I'm not a salesman. I've actually told people to go look at other people's knives rather than try to sell them one of mine when they tell me what they're looking for. Again I I would much rather see all of us win than one or two come out as the big winners. I love seeing kids at at knife shows and a little bit of a tangent here. Many times I've had them come up and they're looking for a knife and the adult with them says yeah he's been saving his money to buy a knife when he comes here probably because of shows like Forge and Fire and okay how much have you saved up yeah I've saved $40. Well we all know that $40 is not going to buy you a custom knife but it's an incredible learning opportunity for that that young person is to take them and say okay what are you looking for? And here's the things you need to look for in a knife and now I want you to go around this show and if you find a knife that you like before you get back here then you buy it and I would love for you to come show it to me. And if not I want you to come back here and tell me what you learned and ask makers these questions. And they'll come back excited most of the time they obviously didn't find anything for that money. Sometimes they do uh a maker will make them a deal on something and it I don't have it at every show but occasionally I'll make a small blacksmith type knife or a small knife nothing fancy and I'll keep it in my box under the table. And if that kid comes back around I just happen to remember by the way I have a knife down here that's on sale for for how much you saved up you know and I'm able to give them a knife and those kids will come back the next year and show you what they've done and they'll show you either what they're collecting what they're making what they're doing with the knife that that they got from you the previous year. And and that for me is a real kick in the pants. I love that uh at that same show you were talking about Blake O Texas this year I was fortunate enough to sell a few knives and on the way home I got to thinking about it it it wasn't a great show for me but all of the knives I sold were to previous customers they were people that I had a uh a history with a relationship with from the past and they came to a show with hundreds of knife makers and came back to me to purchase a knife with with all of that to select from so that was cool to me you know treat your customers right and don't be a jerk. Uh I would much rather buy a mediocre knife from somebody I enjoy spending time with and talking to than the best knife on the market from somebody that's going to be a jerk to me. I don't want that knife. I don't care how good it is or what the price is on it because every time I look at it I'm gonna remember talking to that person. So you know treat your customers well engage with them. You can tell when they come to your table if they don't want you talking to them you know you might make a comment or two and then just leave them alone. Some people want to engage with everyone and they want to they have a passion for this like we do. You know uh it the business side of it is a constant learning process.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Yeah um the way I got around that is uh I I feel bad pedaling knives sometimes um so I invest a little bit of money each show in having stickers and things like that that people can you know go around and collect. Like my my daughter loves to go table to table and get stickers um and then she puts them all over her bedroom door and and we talk about them and some some people have different designs and things like that. And uh that that's just something she she really likes. So I was like you know that's a pretty cool thing. Let me let me just get a few hundred stickers and I can pass them out each day. And if if I engage with with people that are coming by tables it's like oh hey do you want a free sticker um like this is totally on me. Like you pick it up and do what you want with it. And if knives are a something that we talk about um as an extension of that's fine. But I also want people to have fun at shows. You know some people it's their first knife show they're going to like you know especially in in the blade circuit it's a very overwhelming experience uh for not just the first knife show but really at any point in time. And if they have fun with it and they walk walk away saying man that was just a really great experience then the next time uh a knife show comes around, they're going to be more engaged in investing their time and going and checking things out and whatnot. And uh I I'd much rather do that with some stickers that cost me you know not that much money than uh try to get them roped into buying a knife. I mean that's it's that to me that's kind of like a secondary thing is to talk about knives if uh somebody is otherwise uh not engaged or doesn't want to be personable about picking stuff up because I I think that there is a a connotation with if I go up to a table and I pick up a knife then I need to buy that knife. And it's like you you've I want you to be able to feel different um um blade profiles and weights and things and kind of get a feel for it. And the only way that you can really do that is by picking it up and manipulating it and and kind of you know getting that tactile um um response and feedbacks to to help you learn what you like and what you don't like.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Yeah certainly and and the there's a lot you just covered in that little bit of conversation there the treating the kids well brings them back the next year and creates an interest for them. They're they have good memories of that show so they want to come back that decal that you gave them to put on their door at home or put on their notebook or whatever they're gonna see that and that's that's advertising that's business um and it's fun you know and I remember remember another I I love stories. I I love hearing them and telling them but there's another story from Blade Show in Atlanta an exceptionally well known maker um who sells knives in the you know three to five thousand dollar range regularly a young boy came around and went to the table next to his started to look at one of the knives and that maker stopped him told him not to touch them and basically told him to go on he stepped over to this other maker's table and started looking at these knives and he answered all of his questions the the boy looked at every knife on the table held every knife on the table walked away and that was the end of it well towards the end of the day that little boy came back with his father wearing a pair of overalls you know which is how I dress almost every day just your average looking person came up to the table and he told his dad this is the guy that I was telling you about he has really cool stuff and he let me look at it and the dad thanked him and they looked over the table and he said well which ones did you like and he picked out two or three that he really liked and he without even asking the price he told him I'll take those three knives you're the only person that that that talked to him engaged with him and let him look at your work and I don't know the total cost of those three knives combined but it was well into the four possibly five figures I don't know so treat everyone well you know you don't know where that decal is going to end up who's gonna see it you know at a big show like that somebody may not even know you're there but they may have heard your name and when they see that decal uh on somebody's t-shirt oh that person's here I'm gonna go find them you know they may have had a good interaction with you in the past and they come back to you. So it all of those things that make a difference and and people can tell when you're there as a salesman or you're there as a craftsman. You know that it's just like buying a car. When you walk in you you get that used car salesman vibe from somebody um and I would rather talk to you about knives and teach you about knives and have you come back to me later than push a sale on somebody that doesn't really want or need what I'm providing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

Yeah uh well and and I I think it's about the investment that we make um with with our life energy. And you know it like whether you want to like pull uh religious references or things like that, you know, being a good Samaritan, um treating others as you would have them treat you. To me uh to me I I I think a lot about um more than just monetary widgets, right? Like I I have I have my life energy in the knives that I make and I want them to go to people who appreciate that um that sacrifice of that investment that I've made. And in the same way, you know if I spend you know 50 cents on a sticker, well I mean I you know I paid I paid for that but if there's a there's a like working as a full-time you know um technology guy you know in cybersecurity and whatnot, I uh I have the the blessing of being able to take one form of hard work and energy and turn that that into a benefit in another area and you know stickers and things like that or maybe um more cost effective knives that I can give away to to kids uh those are uh those are ways that I mean in some ways I can either like witness or just show a good example of like what um what should be the quality of a person you know like always be humble be kind and treat others as you would uh you would be treated and if you stick to those core tenants I think that like the world is a much better and more exciting place.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

It's a lot more fun being friends with people than being enemies you know what you're saying there. I mean how many how many kids have you given a sticker to and just they're genuinely happy over that 50 cent sticker that you gave them and I just don't want to be a salesman I want to have fun doing this. I've been I I use the word fortunate a lot um but I've been extremely fortunate that I had a good career I have a retirement coming in I don't have to to sell a knife to keep the lights on so I do understand there's different pressure based on you know where you why you do this. If you do it as a hobby if you do it full time to feed your family or like me I it is a business but I don't consider myself a businessman it's just open so many doors for me that it's I'm very very fortunate and and I know that and I owe that to a lot of people yeah um I they uh they say in fishing right like a bad day fishing is better than the best day working and I'm I'm kind of of a similar uh mind when it comes to knife making like a bad day knife making is better than the best day working for somebody else and to to you know just you know uh get the whip cracked at you to get some widgets and widgets done.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Um and and there's a more it's it's a difference between you know going out and hunting and you know taking your own game and cooking it and the satisfaction you feel because like soup to nuts, you've been an integral Part of that entire process versus just going out and um uh buying something and then getting a bellyache later on because uh you know it wasn't prepared right or whatever. You know, there's a there's an entire uh internal validation process and uh and um joy that you derive from making and whatnot. And I I think uh every day I get to make knives and to do this fun stuff is a blessing to me. It also helps that I enjoy my day job. Um, but you know, that is the balance too. You know, I've spent tens of thousands of dollars on knife shows, and sometimes when uh those shows don't really equal the business being able to pay itself back, I have to evaluate, you know, could I have spent $10,000 on you know, three shows, um uh, you know, everything combined, travel and whatnot, or could I have taken my family on a really great vacation? And um, I think that there is a balance. Um, you know, everything that you like is always is not always good for you. I mean, heroin addicts and stuff like that can attest. Um, and we have to look at the difference between, you know, uh addiction and um and uh joy and validation with anything that we do and make sure that we we balance things out appropriately. But with all that being said, if I take a little bit of a financial hit and I can go and do these things and and bring a little bit of light to other people's lives and make this you know this engine or this vehicle that we have for in knives um uh grow and be beneficial to others, to me that's worth it. And it feels really good. Like anything that feels really good to me, uh that feels wholesome and whatnot, those are the things I want to do more of. And I've I've found a lot of that inside of you know knives and our in our in our craft.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

Yeah, that there's definitely value beyond the dollar signs that you get for a knife. Uh you know, the the relationships that you make, um being able to create uh it it feeds me. Um I know like when I go on vacation, if I don't have a notebook with me, I I almost go crazy. I have to be able to sketch ideas. Um if I'm not able to get to my shop, I need some way to remember what I was thinking about. Uh so yeah, there's there's a lot more to all of this than just selling a product. You know, I I can go down to 7-Eleven and and work as a clerk and sell a product. Um we are not to use the term loosely, but we are artists and craftsmen and we enjoy that part of it. The creative side of it really no matter how involved you are in it, you get to create something and make something, and it's fun. So it's you were talking about this industry and and and how we grow and feed and uh that's I've over the last few years I've watched a lot of younger makers coming in, and a lot of the older makers that have gotten to a point where they've had to either slow down significantly or even stop making uh because of age, illness, variety of reasons, and trying to bridge the gap between those two uh so the new makers uh can gain knowledge from those older guys that are on their way out. I mean it that sounds a little uh heavy, I guess, but honestly, uh there's a whole generation of makers that we're we're losing to age. Uh they're not able to make it to the shows, they're not able to to put on classes like they used to. And these new makers jump on YouTube and start just uh gorging themselves on the information there. Well, some of that's good and some of it's not. Just because somebody has a cell phone does not mean they should be teaching. And anybody with a cell phone can create a YouTube channel and uh preach the gospel of knife making, uh, but they may not be preaching the word, you know. So trying to connect the younger generation to the older generation these last few years has been kind of what I've been trying to do and figure out how to do that. Um and it's not always easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I um I I think that's a perfect segue um to talk a little bit about the Oklahoma Knife Group. Now, I I've been a member, this is my second year now. Um I went to um the more recent show after I guess the name changed and whatnot. But to be honest with you, I don't know a lot about the legacy of the Oklahoma Knife Group and kind of how everything started. And I would um in in lieu of the the Oklahoma Knife Group having a website and and kind of showing that legacy, I'd really like to hear it from the horse's mouth, somebody who knows more about it um as a board member and everything. And could you could you kind of go um into a little bit more detail about like the the origins and kind of the purpose behind the group?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:20

Absolutely. Uh I mean I I love talking about knives and I love talking about our knives in this region. So the Oklahoma Knife Group, what's known as the Oklahoma Knife Group now, used to be the KGA, the Knife Group Association. Uh unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, KGA was created about 23 years ago, I believe, and had graphics made up, you know, a symbol, the knife group, and it was created by guys like Mike Miller, Ray Kirk, George Engelbritzen, some great makers, uh Jerry McClure, guys here in Oklahoma, uh, who are passionate about what they do. So they created the Oklahoma Knife Group, and about twice a year they would do a uh shop tour where they would go to someone's home, go to their shop, and have little breakout classes, have lunch, uh, raffle a few things off to make money to pay for the food and things like that. Um fairly informal group and uh you know, sit around, drink tea and lie to each other all day, and just have a good time and share ideas and knowledge. Well, 23 years ago, the internet wasn't what it is today. You know, you couldn't get online and find everybody in your town that is interested in knives. So it was more of a word of mouth. About two years ago, we were at a shop tour here at my house, and I got the board members together on the back porch during lunch, and I said, Hey, what would you think about rebranding the group and trying to freshen it up and get some younger blood into the board? And I was honestly pretty hesitant to broach the subject because I was afraid I would offend them. And I've got massive respect for these guys. Uh, that was the last thing I ever wanted to do. And a little bit to my surprise, they got excited about it, and we kind of ran with it. So we, if you Google KGA, it came back as the Kansas Golf Association. So to counter that, we just simplified it to Oklahoma Knife Group, and it's open to makers, collectors, enthusiasts. If you just enjoy knives, that's what we're about. Uh, we still try to do one or two shop tours a year uh and our annual show. Well, two years ago, the show was pretty small. Um in 2023, it really blew up. Uh, if you were at that show, you know we had huge crowds, uh, which was good and bad. The venue, HH Shooting Sports in Oklahoma City treated us exceptionally well. Um unfortunately, the space, we just outgrew it. So in 2023, I believe we had 64 tables that we were able to sell. Uh, for 2024, we moved it to Norman, Oklahoma to the Cleveland County Fairgrounds. We have an entire building and we have 134 tables and still have a waiting list of people wanting in. We currently have makers uh signed up to exhibit from as far away as the country of Georgia in Europe, uh, which just really shocked us. We had no idea that anybody, you know, from that far away even knew we existed. Uh so there's a lot of excitement, a lot of new makers, young makers that see the benefit of community here. And the guys that like Mike Miller was the president of the KGA for 22 years. That's a long time to be in charge of anything. And they're getting on up in years, they're getting tired, and I know I don't want to be on the board for 22 years, you know. A few years down the road, I expect to pass the baton to someone else uh who's excited and wants to keep this going. Uh we are an LLC. We're not in this to make money, we're in this to build up the makers and get them exposed to buyers and to further the craft. Um if you're a member of the KKG, I'm sorry, if you're a member of the OKG, then you have access to classes throughout the year that we do little breakout classes on. I think Brian Tomberlin did one recently on uh knife design and grinding, I believe. I wasn't able to attend. Uh it was limited to about 10 people or so. All it cost our members was the cost of the class, whatever it cost us in materials to put it on, which was very, very minimal. You can't take a class from an ABS Mastersmith for eight hours for 20, 30 bucks, whatever it costs, anywhere in the country. It's just not a thing. Uh we have another class coming up on folders. Uh Bill Kennedy is doing that one. Uh, he's a fantastic maker. You know, to be able to go to his shop, see his tools, uh, ask him questions in a setting of maybe 10 people total for $20, $25, whatever the cost is, that's that's a big deal, you know. Um the show this year has just grown a lot. It'll be April 27th down in Norman. Uh I hope everybody can make it. I'm doing everything I can. Our board is working incredibly hard to market this, to get buyers in the door. Um, we have volunteers that are working hard. Uh I think I mentioned earlier that that I've worked with the uh the Oklahoma Kids Corral and Toby Keith Foundation. They will actually be on site that day managing a silent auction for some knives that were donated to their cause. Uh if you're interested in those, uh go talk to them, take a look at the knives. Even if you're not interested in making a bid, take a look at what they do, and uh uh it's a very worthwhile cause. Uh so you know that the group just needed to be brought into uh I hate to say modern times, but updated and refreshed. And last fall, I believe it was, Mike Miller stepped down as president. Um the board voted me in as president, Brian as vice president. That was never my intention. I had no desire to be president. I just wanted to see the growth the group grow. And we definitely have, and we have some some other exciting things coming for our members in the next few months, hopefully. Uh to keep people coming back. Uh I just want to see people in Oklahoma and this region get together and build each other up.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:29

Yeah. Um, yeah, because I I I think you know, we have the Texas Knife Makers Guild here in Texas, and but there's there's usually a lot of distance that separates us because of how big the state is. And um, you know, it a lot of knife makers uh kind of centralized around like the populated areas. Um, but through through the Texas Knife Makers uh Guild, I've noticed that there's more people that are close to me than I ever thought. Um and in the same way, um I've I had heard of people talking about uh the um the 2020, I guess a 2022 show for the Oklahoma Knife Group, and that it was fairly small. And there's there's some knife makers that look at um show size as to whether it'll be uh viable or not, you know, if they're gonna sell knives and whatnot and get exposure. Um and last year when we were at the show, like uh uh once in a while, um, you know, I'm I'm I'm divorced and uh have a a child with uh with my ex-wife. And once in a while, uh Sissy will get to go to shows with us, and she loved it. She met um uh uh uh Jim and Dolly um and uh uh Dunlap and and she absolutely loved them. We sat right next to them, and uh uh you know, like her experience with that show was was phenomenal. And it was in a small enough setting, I think, um, with the tables that uh she was able to go around and look at materials. She liked every show that she uh gets to, she goes to Jance and buys um handle material, something for her little collection on her shelf. Um and once in a while she tries to convince me to make a knife for her, but she's a little bit um uh unwieldy with uh blades. So we're we're kind of waiting on that. But she has a lot of handle material to choose from whenever she gets to that place. I'm I could probably make her knives for years and uh and you know, she's a a good collector of handle material. Um but uh yeah, like the the venue was a little bit uh small, um, but the energy was really great. I mean, I talked to so many people. Um it was it was close enough in uh proximity where you know we appreciate the the day show because we can just drive up there, do the show, we don't have to worry about the hotel accommodations for a long period of time. Um and even though even like if we if it was a two-day show eventually, I don't think that that would matter too much to us because it is close. But um what I I guess like the the point is I really um through the Oklahoma Knife Group have gotten a better scope of the Oklahoma culture in knife making and getting to see more of the um the participation from Oklahoma knife makers in a way that I just don't know if I would have been able to if I had to look, you know, look at individual makers that are kind of posting up on each group and then tracing them back to their state. Um even though we have a a lot of other um a lot of other border states to Oklahoma uh participating in the show, I think it's been really good to see just you know the the quality of work and the enthusiasm in Oklahoma uh for the craft and everybody has been super nice. Like it's just a a really um a really focused bunch of really great people. And I think that's what I like even more than the knives is just how good the people are.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:09

That's all I love hearing that uh and getting that perspective from from a little bit outside my own personal little circle. Uh it's great to hear that that what we're doing is working. And I think you know, Texas, Oklahoma, each state, you have pride in your state, and it it's amazing to me how much talent we have around that we don't realize until we come to something like that. Um and this you know, this show uh it it has grown exponentially over the last few years. Uh I actually this morning visited a possible new venue for the 2025 show. Uh so that's how far out we're looking and working on making this show even better than it will be next month. Uh the volunteers, the board members are awesome. I can't say enough good about them. Uh people just don't realize how many hours how many hours a day go into making an organization like the Oklahoma Knife Group or the Texas Knife Makers Guild making that work. And you're right, we do have somewhat of a benefit here in Oklahoma that geographically we're not nearly as separated as as makers are in Texas. Uh if if you're not familiar with Texas, it's hard to explain that you can't you could drive all day and never leave the state, you know, in one direction. Uh so yeah, we we all need to take pride in in what we do and the people around us that do that. So and you mentioned meeting uh other makers close to you at that show. Uh to me that's one of the big huge benefits of of doing shows is meeting other makers that you wouldn't be exposed to. Uh I've had the opportunity to exhibit in Atlanta, in Fort Worth, all around the central U.S. And because of the people I met at those shows, I've also had the opportunity to exhibit overseas. And talking about regional things, it's interesting to me to see the the design elements, the the way things are laid out, and what people in different regions prefer. Uh it's not as obvious to go from Oklahoma City to Fort Worth, but you go from Oklahoma City to Europe and look at the knife designs and patterns and what's popular, and it really is different by region, like significantly different.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:53

Yeah, and uh uh speaking of that, I I did want to talk a little bit about your your sheath style um in your knives. Like I'm I've always been uh attracted to uh pioneer um style knives, which I mean not all of your knives fit into that category per se, uh, but I do I do gravitate towards some of those knives that do look more um like early buoy-esque um, you know, pioneer style knives. And uh and the sheath style um I'm is reminiscent of uh John Kohey, um who passed what last year, I guess it was last year or the year before. And um uh is there any influence that you have from from him on your sheath making or how absolutely. Yeah, um I mean yeah, I uh you know continue. I I won't interrupt you. That's uh full full stop. That's that's the question.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:52

John uh was a huge influence on me. I and like you, I would I've been attracted to that style. I call it frontier style. Um I'm not Native American, I don't call it you know, Indian, Native American, Mountain Man, whatever. To me, it's something that you could possibly have seen on the American frontier, you know, early to mid-1800s. Uh before Facebook and and just instant messaging and stuff, uh, I saw John's work printed somewhere and I can't remember where. I found his email address and I sent him an email with a question about something. And just a few minutes later, I got an email back, and all it had was his phone number. No answer to my question or nothing. And I was a little bit hesitant to call because it's like, well, this is either gonna go really well or he's mad at me about something. I called him and I think we stayed on the phone for over two hours talking. And I loved him to death. Uh you know, he was a little bit abrasive on the surface, but uh just a great guy with a huge heart, and answered any question I ever had. If if I had a question, I could email him, text him, the phone would ring, and we'd sit and talk forever, and he'd answer those questions for me. Uh before John, uh Daniel Winkler and Karen Schuch kind of did something similar. Um, I think John kind of took that and ran with it. And uh Daniel Winkler went a different direction with his work. Um it's just a very different style uh and kind of evokes some imagery in in my mind when I hold it and when I'm working with it, that I don't get from just a a standard knife with a vegetable tan leather sheath. And for anyone not familiar with the style we're talking about, it's it's rawhide, uh lacing, fur, claws, you know, ermine tail, big conchos, something that you could imagine. In that wild frontier age. And John was just a huge influence on me. And I talked to him, you know, just before he passed. And he was excited that part of his legacy was that people would still be making that style of knife using his techniques. So he was very, very happy about that. The DVDs that he made are still available. And it's a great series for anybody interested, can look those up. But he goes into great detail on that. The difference working rawhide versus vegetable tan is I can go out and cut the parts out for a vegetable tan sheath, work on it for a little while, leave it for a day or two, come back, work on it for a while, leave it for a few hours, come back, and just do it when I want to. When you're working with rawhide, once you wet that rawhide, you have to finish it. You can't work it for a little while and come back because it gets so hard and the techniques are different. And there's a there's a bit of a learning curve with it because the the rawhide stretches when it's wet, it shrinks when it's dry. So if it fits well when it's wet, you're not going to be able to get your knife in that sheath when it's dry. And some of that knowing what to do with it just comes from playing with it for a while. And going back to the creative aspect of what we do, that style of sheath allows me so much creative freedom over a simple vegetable tan sheath. Uh not that there are not guys that do veg tan that are just incredible artists. For me, the raw high just allows a different kind of outlet. And uh John and Daniel and Karen Schuch, they're I look up to them immensely and refer back to their their work a lot, you know, for uh ideas and uh inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:55

Yeah. Um for anybody who's not aware, uh Chris Crawford um and I had founded this podcast together and he went on to uh do other things. And uh uh John and Chris had done one, two, three, four videos um related to uh uh frontier style sheaths and and blades, and I think it's worth anybody going and actually looking at that. But you know, um the the thing that I think about with rawhide too is that we have we have in knives like this kind of paradigm between the perfect and the imperfect, um, where you're either pushing for perfection or you're embracing imperfection. And it's it's a it's kind of a a weird um, again, kind of existential uh decision that you um make sometimes. And what I really like about John's uh style and and well, even in this frontiersman um uh style of sheath and knife making is that um uh imperfections are embraced because it's a uh it's a product of the time, right? And we've gotten away from that where people want Sheffield style knives where it's like you know honed and there's craftsmen of multiple generations doing those same things and getting it to what is a like functional perfection. Um, and then you have you know frontier knives that are um sometimes a little bit rough around the edges. Uh to me, frontier is Americana, right? It is it is this uh window into a lifestyle and an aesthetic that is a hundred percent utility, it is a hundred percent making your own things for your own purposes. And in that, I find a lot of beauty. Um, there's a lot to look at, there's a lot to uh study. And like I I love your knives because um when when I do look at those, that's that's uh evocative to me. I really just you know sit and think about um what it took to make that. And um, you know, they're wonderful collection pieces uh because you can constantly go back to it and just admire it. So I mean you're doing a wonderful job in uh keeping that legacy alive and and applying your own um eye and everything to it as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:14

Thank you. It I I really do love everything about it, and I uh I want to give you know uh consideration to guys like John, and I also don't want people thinking I'm trying to copy his work. That style is what I like. John had a way of of uh like you said, incorporating uh new and clean with the imperfections. Uh I actually had the the privilege of working on the last knife or finishing the last knife that John worked on. It was a commission piece, and he passed before it was finished. Somehow my name got brought up into it, and I was able to finish grinding the blade for him, uh, heat treat it, put the guard and handle assembly all together. Um, had some just absolutely stunning scrimshaw uh by an artist named Charles Connors. Um and it ended up with the the collector who was very happy with it. For me, it was just an honor to get to finish that knife uh and be a part of that collaboration. Um I think my knives are slightly different from John's. I think maybe a little more finished and a little less of the uh the forge marks left on it, though a lot of people like you talked about earlier, uh I think before we started recording, was uh or it may have been after we started, about some people want that forged knife. They they want proof that it was forged. So occasionally I'll actually leave a forge mark in it, uh leave a little bit of scale on the spine, um and that that appeals to a certain crowd. You know, some people don't want that, and to all of the people that tell me I do or don't like XYZ, I reply that if everyone wanted the same knife, I'd find a different hobby because I don't want to make the same knife every time. So variety is fun. Uh sometimes I make a knife that is very crude looking, but I I still want good quality um but has that frontier aged used look to it. Uh I think there's a a bit of a misconception uh about rustic versus rough. Uh a knife can be rustic looking and still have very good fit and finish uh versus just roughly put together and unfinished. If you look back at at historical reference knives, they were not put together in a shoddy manner. They took pride in their work. Uh I can remember I was at a museum in Paris uh a couple of years ago, and I my son was a little bit embarrassed, but I was on my hands and knees with my flashlight looking at at uh some chinquadeas that they had in there, and just absolutely floored me at the detail and uh aspects that they put into that those knives that are centuries old. You know, they didn't have power tools. This was all hand fitted, and there were no gaps, there were no seams, and this is hundreds of years after it was made. And today we have people who are using the excuse of uh oh you know, that's the way it would have looked, or it's rough, or brute deforge. No, brute to forge doesn't mean rough and poorly assembled. That just means that you leave some of your forging marks. You still need to work on cleaning things up and making things straight and doing it right. You can still have some of that brute to forge look, but uh but I and and I may be stepping on some toes here, but it goes back to honestly assessing your work. You know, am I am I doing stuff that's just good enough or am I doing good work?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:22

Well, I I totally agree. I mean, even like going back to conversations about Sheffield, uh, you know, those those knives, uh regardless of whether they were pocket knives or whether they were uh fixed blade, all started in the forge. And you know, they're exemplary in in their quality and fit and finish and everything, but they started uh much the same way. And that really does um it really does cause you to think about what is achievable and what you're good enough is. You know, I've talked about that um because in in the concepts of like the knife makers guild, they're like the last 10% is like 90%. Um and you know, uh pushing for that extra fit and finish and everything is something that you have to articulate and be willing to, you know, push yourself to get into. And uh, you know, I'm reminded of uh of carpentry. And uh, you know, you you look at like a Victorian era um chest of drawers or really anything from that era, and maybe you have like a French polish on the outside, but if you look behind every drawer um in every construction, you see you know perfect dovetailed um joinery and uh like everything is is joined and and finished in the areas where you can't see them very easily. You have to look. And I think that's something about uh quality of craftsmanship that's important to know is that it's not even so much about where everybody sees where quality should be uh paid attention to, but it's in those areas where nobody uh would look to see, you know, like I mean, how are you finishing inner frames or um is uh you know, is your guard fit up good? Are you hiding it with uh solder? Um, you know, there's a a plethora of areas where if you're if you're looking at the areas where nobody else is and your and your um craftsmanship uh is is good there, then the aesthetic of the piece is something that you can use for like like to be evocative. Uh but it all starts with fundamentals of understanding construction, understanding good fit and finish, understanding durability. And those pieces, you know, could outlast you know several generations and be in museums one day. Um but if you make it, if you make it poorly, or you settle with uh you settle for less because that helps to confirm a bias that you know quality is not important, or this is how you get to that rustic look. Um, well, we have the same problem with uh knives that are coming out of Pakistan. You know, they're they're not durable knives, they're not made well. They might look good and comparative to, you know, um hand-forged Damascus and and everything uh look similar, but in performance and in longevity, they're just not the same things. And we have to understand that balance in order to be able to produce something that we can be proud of. And I'm, you know, it doesn't it doesn't matter whether we step on the on the toes of that propriety. Uh people need to understand that um in order to continue to um push our craft in an area of quality to make the value proposition between production versus handmade uh there and visible and known by people, you you have to be willing to produce more than just crap that's not going to last very long. Like we're we're not making IKEA knives, we're not making Walmart knives. Um, we're making something that's supposed to stand the test of time, and that comes from a fundamental understanding of construction and of fit and finish. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:18

It's you know, that that attention to detail is a matter of pride. Um going back to John Kohey, one of the things that that he always did was uh during the sheath making, he would dye the inside of the sheath. And nobody sees that. But in you know, to John, that was a big deal because if you don't dye it, then it doesn't match, regardless of whether anybody sees it or not. And it's the parts that people don't see that make a knife better or worse. Uh the construction, the materials that you use, the adhesives, uh, the heat treat on the steel. Uh I actually had a a maker tell me one time that he doesn't even heat treat Damascus blades, which just shocked me. I asked him why, and he said, Well, nobody's ever going to use them, so I'm not gonna waste my time. That just blew me away. Uh but it's the you know, the the heat treat, uh using the right steels, and being honest with your your customer base that you know if I use a reclaimed steel or recycle steel, uh occasionally I'll use a rasp, uh, Ferrier's RASP, or I've had people bring me a piece of steel from their farm, uh a family car or something like that. You know, I have to be honest with them. I I can't dial this in the way I can if I have a known steel. And as long as they understand that, I'm fine with it. But I'm not gonna present that as a finished piece from me that I would put on my table for sale without disclosing that. Uh you you have to take pride in what you do, and if you don't, it either shows or it will re reveal itself eventually somehow.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:07

Yep. Yeah, I uh like everybody should be making knives uh that are uh are prepared for the zombie apocalypse, right? I mean, because you you have this big show knife and it's sitting up on the shelf, and then somebody comes in and tries to use that to save themselves against the zombie horde, except the the the blade bends in half and you're like, oh no, and then you get eaten by zombies. Well if if you if you're making that like the you know 400-year-old katana or like the you know the uh the knife that uh is perfect in its functionality and it saves somebody's life, you you cannot prepare for how your things are going to be used in the future. And I always prepare for the worst case scenario. So if if I look at that in from a construction and quality perspective, you know, one one day down the road in a context that we're not prepared for, that might be the difference between life or death for somebody. Um it's a thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:02

We make functional art. The the first word is functional. If it doesn't perform the function it was designed to, then it's just art. And you can just draw that. Uh and not to take away from you know people that do drawing or painting, but why go through all the trouble of forging it out if it's not going to function and do its intended uh purpose? Uh the buoy knives that I make, you know, I've had people well, I'm never gonna cut anything with with this. It's like, well, that's fine, that's your choice. If you buy it, it's yours to do what you want with. But they were made to use or to at least be functional in the uh the uh field, you know, the use that I'm they're intended for. If if it's a skinny knife, I actually had a customer call me a couple of years ago ecstatic because he used a Damascus knife to uh skin and clean a deer. And uh he said, Yeah, I was kind of upset because I forgot my regular skinner that I got from you, and this was the only one I had with me, and it worked just as well. I said, Well, what did you think it was going to do? He goes, Well, it's it's Damascus. I thought they were just to look at. It's like, no, if you know, it's a knife, it's use it like a knife. That's what they're for. Enjoy them. You know, it goes back to the same thing. Eat dessert first, use the good china, open the good bottle of wine, you know, enjoy life. So if it comes out of my shop and it's made to be a knife, that's what it can be used for.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:33

Well, I I totally agree. I can't I can't agree more on that. I think that um that is it shows up in your work and and your personability with others and things like that. And um it's uh it's been really great to get you on on the podcast and talk to you about everything. Um, you know, obviously we share this common um interest in the Oklahoma Knife group, but I've uh you know, I've followed your work for a long time and uh and I've always admired it. And uh you've always been very, very kind, um, especially what I've seen in your you know online representation uh in the community and whatnot. So uh Sean, it's a pleasure to have you on the show and to get some time and just talk talk about you and your values and your art. And um, you know, I'm I'm honored.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:19

It's been an absolute pleasure, and I I can talk knives all day long. This is a it's an absolute passion of mine. Uh so thank you very much for having me on. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:33

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless.