SPEAKER_00 0:21

I've tried many times to put a finger on what I like about the knives that Steven Ramos makes over the years. And I always give up and try to figure out why he looks so much like an actor I can't exactly place, and why he didn't take up acting with his Hollywood good looks. I may have squirrel brain, but in reality, I really like everything about what he's doing. And what's crazy about Steven is that he makes incredibly good-looking and wild knives, which marry stone and steel together in a way that's fantasy, art, and utility all at the same time. He's one of those knife makers on my watch list that seems to have figured out his true self and knives from a very early stage, and I live vicariously through him and his lapidary knife combinations as he pushes the envelope on fit, finish, and material choices. Frankly, I just sit stunned over what his mind produces, and the technical sophistication in which they're executed. What's more, Steven's sheath-making prowess complements his knives, and it's a perfect accentuation that tells a story outside of his knives and with them at the same time, which is quite enigmatic. Stephen, it's great to have you on the Good Old Blades podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, um, so I I think that most of my um experience with your work really has to do with things like seeing you on Arizona custom knives, like knives for sale, or sometimes things that get shared through Blade Show when you're at the shows, or um your presence on social media, so Instagram and Facebook, um, with a larger emphasis on Facebook. Um can you give me a little bit of a of uh introduction to yourself, uh, what got you into knives, things like that, so that way the you know, those who have not dug into your uh knife making uh journey uh on social media at least know a little bit more about you and your craft? Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

I well growing up, I I I always liked work with my hands. I loved making things. My my dad growing up, uh he worked for the power company, local power company, and he had a six-car garage that is actually my shop now. Um that he'd work on cars and stuff, and he'd he'd like to weld and things, and and he had tons, tons of power tools and different things. And my brothers and I would go in the shop and and make wooden swords and wooden guns and just uh had the time of our lives just making things out of wood and whatever we could find. There was just my dad kind of had a lot of junk and things in the shop, and we'd kind of just take parts of things and make them look like lightsabers and swords. So that's kind of how I got started with with making things. I just I just had this natural affinity to to use my hands to make stuff. Um and it wasn't until I was around like 22, 23 I I made some other things. I actually made some Wolverine Claws, you know, from the X-Men movies, and uh that was such a thrill. Someone actually wanted to buy them after, and I thought, oh that that's really fun that I you could actually make something that people want to buy after. And I thought, well, maybe I may I could make some swords out of aluminum. I mean, I had no idea how to make actual swords or or real blades with with real uh you know, Martinsetic steels or anything like that, but just things that were props that maybe I could make, and uh it wasn't till I think it was around 24 that I was at the the Kimball Arts Festival in Park City, it's a a fairly large arts festival and there was a knife maker there among all the the painters and glass sculptures, and I I it just kind of just intrigued me just to see that there was someone that was making blades, you know, and growing up uh I you know I had a natural affinity for blades anyway, like like most boys do. Just the idea of a sword or a knife on your side was so mystical and magical to me. So to see a guy that was making knives, you know, as an art form was just one of the most fascinating things to me. And I feel ashamed I I don't remember the guy's name. I his name was Mike something, but uh his knives were just these beautiful pieces of work, and I just from that that point on, I was like, I I I think I want to try to make a knife. So I went home and I I kind of told my parents what I what I had intentions for and uh started researching steels and I kind of opened up this whole new microcosm I never knew existed was uh the art of knife making. And I started to learn a couple names. I heard about this guy named Steve Johnson, I heard about this guy named Ricardo Vallarde, and I really didn't know who they were at the time, just that they were some knife makers that were fairly local to me, and I was looking at their work and again just was just fascinated. You know, that there was this this whole world that I didn't know existed. Um so that's kind of how I got into it, and just just kind of blossomed from there. I just um read more and more about knives. I uh I found another knife maker that I I took a lot of inspiration from at the beginning, which was Jay Fisher out of um New Mexico. He he made gemstone handled knives and mirror finishes, and he did his own leather work with exotic skins and just the the most beautiful pieces of work I I'd I'd ever seen. And I learned more names like Gil Hibbon and uh I think my parents actually got me a Gil Hibbon DVD for my birthday one year. I think it was um it was just like an 88-minute long video of him uh kind of making a bowie knife. So and from then on I I just just kind of built on that. I started to to gain some equipment. Um my I kind of used the machines that my dad currently had in his garage. You know, he had a couple small grinders and drill presses. Nothing specific to knives, of course, but um that's kinda kind of how I got started. Um started learning more and more about different types of steels and uh made my first knife in I think it was January of 2012. That was my first knife with uh 440C and stainless steel bolsters and and uh some kind of red acrylic handle. And I had the time of my life doing it. I mean just I thought it was the coolest thing ever that you could actually make something that uh out of nothing but that you could actually use um and it was sharp and was beautiful and was it was usable. Uh and by then I was hooked. I mean I I couldn't stop, and it's just kind of branched out ever since, and that's it that's how it got started.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, it's pretty rad. Um were you were you converse on all like the heat treating uh methods and stuff for different steels early on, or was that something that you came into later?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

No, something I came into later. I I you know in my research before I made my first knife, I did a lot of research before beforehand. I I I did just jump right into sharpening a you know an old file, which a lot of people get into, which is a great way to start. I I did a little more research um than than most, I think. Not that I was particularly um well versed in knife making or anything, but uh I knew that there was a heat treatment process. I wasn't sure how it worked or really what happened to the crystal in the structure or you know what what what really happened to the steel, but I knew that it had to be done somehow. Um there was actually a foundry called May May Foundry, I think, in downtown Salt Lake City that um I would drive my knives to to get done at. Um I would you know cut a couple pieces of steel out of 440C and um I'd drive them down to the foundry and they'd they do them for a small fee and get them done, you know, in about a couple days. So I I I didn't do it myself until you know a few years later when I finally saved up enough money after selling a couple knives to buy my own oven. Which so so now I heat treat all my own knives.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah, that's cool. I uh I I started out really simply with a 01. Um like so I I picked steels early on in my knife making that I could uh use this old uh busted down smoker at a rental property we had um and you know dip it in canola oil, which I mean it skated a file and everything like that, but it was not you know it wasn't rudimentary at best, and they they all look pretty bad uh coming out of it. But um even even still, um I know you know, like when people jump in uh headfirst into knife making, there's a uh 50-50 chance that heat treating is the last thing that they're thinking about. Um which uh definitely, yeah. Which I think is cool in some ways. Uh I say cool. Um there's lots of um methods for being able to make knives, and you don't always have to start with having an expensive heat treating oven. Uh, you know, there is grinding files, there is um um really simplistic torch heat treating for different types of steels, um, you know, like uh oyster knives or things like that that are you know hard use on on shucking oysters, but they're not uh you know, they don't need to necessarily be heat treated to a high rockwell hardness. Um there's also there's like there's heat treating that matches the utility, and then there's also methods for finding steel where you don't have to worry about that so much. Um so um so you're up in the the Salt Lake City area. Um I mean it's Steve Johnson. Uh I I got introduced to him by sitting uh um I guess in front of him, I guess if you cut if from the main door at uh Blade Show Atlanta. But uh all these people were coming up to him and taking his photos and everything, and I was like, who who is this? Because I I I knew Steve Johnson by reputation, but not by face. Um and him, his wife, and his son were there um selling knives, and uh finally uh we were I wrote kind of twisted back around and was talking to him a little bit, and I was like, oh man, like this is the guy. Like Yeah, like yeah, his I mean his reputation, his knives preceded his face in that sense. Uh, but he's just a super nice guy. Like, if you ever wanted to be uh inspired by somebody uh and get into knives, he's definitely like that gateway drug of sorts.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Oh, for sure. I I I I also have his DVD. That was another one of those early DVDs that I got when I got started. Um and again, be him being so local, I'd always want to visit a shop. Um I think I actually did reach out to him uh a year or two into knife making. Again, not knowing really the reputation the man had. I I all I knew was that he was a knife maker and his knives were beautiful, but I didn't really know really the kind of stature the man was and is at the time, you know. So um I I think he said, I'd I'd love to have you come down to my shop, you know, but I'm a little busy at the moment, and you know, I was a little upset. I was like, Oh, I really want to see this guy's shop, you know. But you know, now now that I am a knife maker, I can understand why it's it's it's kind of difficult to have someone come in your shop. But yeah, I he's he's an amazing man um with some amazing work. I didn't meet him until actually a few months ago. Uh I did Blade Show West, which was held here in Salt Lake City, and um he came to my table and he says, Oh, you're Steve, and and it took me two seconds to realize who it was. The more I I didn't expect him to be there. As far as I know, he wasn't on the on the roster. Um so I was a little shocked. I was like, Oh, oh my gosh, you're Steve. So it was kind of a fun way to meet him there. And he was familiar with my work and feeling real familiar with my name to some degree anyway. So we talked for a little bit and uh he's he's he's an incredibly nice man and uh very helpful. You know, I ended up chatting with Von Messenger for a little while after uh I actually got invited out to the RNA invitational by by Barry, um, not as in a an exhibitor, but just as a as a guest to see the show, which I hope means maybe he's interested in my work eventually to be at the show. But Steve um talked to me a little bit about uh you know what to expect at the show and you know kind of some decorum. So he's been incredibly helpful, and uh yeah, his his work speaks for itself too. He's uh definitely uh one of the one of the giants of the industry for sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yeah, well, kind of on that on that note, um uh it's interesting to me uh with uh Barry Lee Hans uh how how much he moves around or like gets around because uh the first time I'd ever uh met him, uh he was at a a fairly local uh knife show in in Texas uh that I didn't know anybody knew about, but he showed up and he was looking at my knives and things and uh you know encouraged me on the areas that he really liked, uh liked them. And as a as a a newer knife maker in the uh public eye, uh, because I'd been making knives for a few years, but not really socializing it too much. Um it was nice to actually kind of get some of that feedback and then learning later just how like prolific he is in engraving and working with other knife makers. I thought it was uh you know real cool. So it's good that um you're getting in uh introduced into the art knife invitational because I can definitely see as I I think that probably the art knife invitational is one of those areas where um it takes a while to um mature is the wrong word, but to um establish uh establish yourself enough enough in the industry to be invited as a guest exhibitor and then as people uh roll out or retire in that group um to be uh to you know to have this the stature and the reputation uh to be unanimously voted in. Um so it's one of those things where you know it takes it takes a minute, and if you're able to um get the eyes on you um for that uh in at this stage and everything, I think that's a really great thing for future prospects.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yeah, I certainly hope so. And you know, it was just a a a privilege and a an honor, just with you know, to not be too dramatic about it, but to to be even invited as a guest to come out and just see the show. So my wife and I went out to to Vegas and and her um her sister actually lives down down to Vegas too. Her brother-in-law is the works at uh Nellis Air Force Base, so we're able to stay with them and make it a little vacation and went to the Art Knife Invitational, and some of the work there is just unbelievable. I mean, just absolutely incredible work. So, but to kind of hobnob and rub elbows with some of those guys was was really fun. And I I'm getting more into the knife making world, as it were, the the actual kind of social events of things and the knife knife shows and things. It's also new to me. I I feel like I've kind of been growing out in Utah in this weird kind of vacuum where um I haven't really trained with anyone, I haven't you know um gone to anyone's shop and learned anyone, I haven't done any kind of apprenticeships or anything. So it's kind of my first big steps into the larger world of knife making, even though I've been doing it for about 12 years. Um which by knife standards is very, very early on in your career. I mean, some of these guys have making knives for 40, 50, even 60 years, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Um, but you know, at the same time, it's it's interesting in a lot of ways with with uh knives because uh if you go back like 20 or 30 years, um a lot of the way that people broke into them is they they either made knives in a vacuum and kind of stayed that way uh for the most part, or they went to shows and proliferated there. There wasn't the advent of the internet um as it is today. And so, you know, if you want to get seen um uh by the public that you have to do shows. Uh so it's uh it's a little bit of a uh difference in in a paradigm uh in in the world that we have today where everything is online and people have websites and um YouTube and all things like that. Um but uh so what was the first year that you went to Blade Atlanta?

SPEAKER_02 16:20

That was actually just this past year, that was 2023. Um was my very first night show ever, actually. And we picked the big one. We picked uh yeah, Blade Show Atlanta, which was a ton of fun. I mean it was stressful getting ready for the show. I I thought there was a lot of expectations, you know, which there should be, you know. I think a lot of people uh there's a couple people that actually expected me to be there. Um so I feel like I had to have some of my best work. Um so getting ready. I still work full time too, so getting ready for the show was kind of stressful and and and tiresome, but uh we had a blast going out there. I made a lot of great contacts. That's actually where we met Barry for the first time. So yeah, just getting out in the shows is has been quite an adventure. And then uh of course we did Blade Show West a few months later, and now um I'm getting ready for the the Solvan show in uh Solvang, California. That's in April, um, which I was very privileged and honored to get invited to.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

So yeah, talking about um uh rubbing elbows with the great knife makers. I mean, the uh the roster of knife makers at Solvang are incredible uh as well. Um you know, you have the Art Knife Invitational, which kind of has its own mix of makers, and then some of those also are uh in Solvang. But um I I think that that's um do you find that you've gravitated more towards the uh I don't know how to put it, the like the old school aesthetic of knife making and those knife makers, like mirror polishes and um and tapered tangs and things, things that are more emblematical of the old guard of knife makers?

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah, yeah, it it is kind of an an old kind of style. I think the you know the biggest thing now is Damascus and a lot of satin finishes and things like that. I again what what I first saw when I started was the mirror finishes, and you know, like I said, Jay Fisher was uh one of the first guys I saw. You know, and at the time I kind of thought that's what everyone did was the mirror finish and gemstone. In fact, I remember talking to some other knife makers and so how well how do you do your gemstone handles? And they said, gemstone? I don't do gemstone. And I thought that was kind of odd because again at the time I thought that's what everyone did because that's what I saw was Jay Fisher and uh some of the uh other knife makers. Probably has a couple of stone inlays, but nothing on the level that Jay Fisher was doing at the time. Um but as far as mirror finishes too, yeah, it was a lot of Gil Hibbins knives too were also mirror finished, and I I I I personally like the mirror finish. I like that it's it kind of shows uh kind of the peak um finish of what a stainless steel can be. Um and I kind of like the challenge of getting it to that level. Um so yeah, it it is kind of an older style. I think there's still a market for that kind of thing. Like any kind of uh art, there's niche markets within that, and there's still people that really like the mirror finishes and the gemstone. And um I've pulled from a lot of Bob Lobless things too, like the tapered tangs and uh stainless fittings. So that's just personally what I like to create. It was something that I felt was uh actually quite simple in its um in its creation, but but difficult in its execution. And I kind of like the balance of that, that it was uh simple yet difficult. I mean, and that's kind of what knife making is in general. I mean, knives are unbelievably simple tools, it's a it's a blade and a handle. I mean, how much more simple can it be? But of course, it's how you execute that blade and handle that really uh separates uh a hobbyist from a from a true craftsman and artist. I kind of liked uh the kind of uh mediums I was working in, like I said, mirror finishes and tapered tanks and uh uh uh bolsters and and stone handles, kind of the amalgamation of all those things that uh made the kind of artwork that I like to create.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah. Yeah, in in in researching for uh this interview, I saw there was a uh post sometime in 2016 about um uh it was on Blade Forums, I think, about uh your your the resemblance of work to uh that you have to Jay Fisher, uh, because I think that on there was a magazine article where you were featured uh on it and they were asking about like uh you know copying others and things like that. And I thought that you handled the situation pretty succinctly. Um but how do you um how do you feel um about uh mimicry is not the right word, uh, but you know, taking elements of of people that you aspire to or that um inspire you in knife making and then incorporating that in your work because um I'll tell you there was um I m quite a few years ago now I had made uh a scalpel um that was uh it it was originally um the way that I came about the the design uh was from an a knife maker uh that was friends with the the gentleman I bought all of his uh equipment uh for a shop when I got into knife making. Uh and uh Clay Clay Galt was his name. Uh he was a you know longtime guild member, uh would go out to the uh guild shows and everything, and he was located here in Texas. And I think in uh maybe 2013 he had passed away. But he you know he had a uh a long history of making these um these caping sets uh for uh safari hunting and whatnot. And um when I in inherited the patterns from Clay Gall, uh Martin Pullen and John Weaver, um I was like, you know, there's not a lot of practicality anymore for caping sets. You know, I tried to sell them uh, you know, uh the the the pattern set as that, um, but it just really wasn't. um going anywhere uh because there's not a lot of people that are gonna spend you know fourteen hundred dollars on a on a caping set uh but yeah I think it was like five knives and they were all they were all modeled after scalpels that were found from the late 1800s to the to the turn of century um you know world war one-ish right and uh the scalpels um resembled a a knife that it was a Hawson uh Jerry Hossam Jerry Hossam uh that he made and somebody uh that was uh so my knife came up on some some group and somebody said that it was it was like a uh you know it resembles a uh a Jerry Hossam knife and and they were like uh yeah a a rip-off of him or a you know a poor imitation and I was just like hey buddies like come like come like come on like I mean I respected uh Hossum's work um and and he has his own style and everything but you know the the area where my design and his converge uh really happens by happenstance it was not intentional and I had uh I hadn't uh really uh followed his uh Hossum's bird and trout um patterns a whole lot this was this came from Clay Gault um but like how how difficult is that when you're uh when you are respecting and incorporating um uh design elements uh from the masters and whatnot into your own work to try to like um educate people that's like maybe maybe influence versus like try to make exact uh you know uh pattern copies or whatever I I think that the idea of copying and mimicry and knife making is kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

I mean every every artist can take something from someone else. I mean it's you know Michelangelo did uh sculptures and so did many other sculptors of the time or sculptors of the time can they say they copied each other and because they they're working within the same medium it's it's hard to say um I think the only thing time you can actually copy someone is if you take their exact pattern exactly how they they designed it you make the exact same thing as best as you can and then pass it off as your own unique work and that that's that's to me copying which I've I've never done I've never I've never copied any jayfisher's designs I've had some things that are definitely inspired by that I like um swooping plunges I like recurves in fact a lot of my knives were influenced by by Bill Luckett's recurve knives and so I pulled elements from a lot of different makers um I I personally don't see any issue with people taking elements from other other creators and making their own unique creations out of it. I mean even George Lucas uh pulled things from from the Dune series to make uh his his tattooing plan in Star Wars um of course again I I guess people say that that was a ripoff of Dune too so I personally don't get too hung up on who's copying who or who's um mimicking who or who's pulled from what I I just think it's interesting if you can make a piece of art that is beautiful and and still unique to the to the artist's own unique flavor I guess. You know and and early on my my knives I guess maybe looked more like Jay Fisher's. Again that's that's what I knew that's who I pulled from the most inspiration from so I thought that's how knives that's just how I thought knives were made. But as I kind of matured and and gained other influences I I moved away from certain elements and and created some of my own unique things. Again for one thing that I do that's I've actually never seen anyone do is I do um dovetailed bolsters on an outside curve which I haven't seen anyone do. So it's kind of a unique thing. I wanted to make something that was totally mine.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

So well yeah and I think there's I those those early interactions with um critics I guess uh sometimes help mold us into areas where we uh we do make very large distinctions in in our art style uh uh you know uh opposed to the people who think that we're just copying um others aesthetic um but you know I when I look at your knives there's an evolution uh from your earlier knives as far back as I could look is uh about 2013 so um you know some some some knives that you pop populated on social media uh and then now uh there's um so there's a lot of file work and uh things that I can't necessarily say um uh Jay Fisher was the only thing that I saw in them because you know I look at uh Gil Hibbon and um uh let me think uh Buster Worensky um some of those some of those elements uh that I I guess maybe at the time you'd call them fantasy knife features right um you know the the swoops and the sabers and and and and those type of uh geometrics uh but you've you've really come into a um uh like the pinnacle of of your own style and your knives now where things are balanced out in a way that is is more refined than what I would see in your 2013 knives right um oh for sure yeah and I th I well I think that um that is a an evolution or progression from you know where where you start and you kind of do things that make sense to you in your mind and then you progress in and refine those ideas to say well what am I really focusing on right like what what about this um you know the swooping plunges or recurves or um you know working with stone or uh dovetails or taper tanks or whatever they are um what about that thing do I like the most and then let me ex like let me put a magnifying glass on that element and then that is my kind of new aesthetic. Like I I pick out the the the things that I like the most about um you know knife making and patterns and and uh design and art aesthetics right and then slowly m mature into that where I can really hone my craft into the areas where I really do like that. And I think that that's what separates um people who do ear like early mimicry um in some ways to refining things into their own because you look at uh a lot of people who um copy the uh the general uh designs of loveless um that you know you you start somewhere and you m and you use that as an inspiration but then some of the most iconic loveless style makers really you you could pick out a loveless and you could pick out their knives and they'd be completely different like they just have a different aesthetics that they focus on and you can see that as kind of like a a fingerprint on the knives that they make.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Right, right yeah exactly no it and it's interesting too that um there are so many loveless makers and uh I I don't see too many people accusing them of being copiers or anything like that. It's it's how a lot of knife makers start is is because Bob uh loveless had such um a distinct style but they were so um perfect for their usage that it it's a great knife to start with. It's very simple it's very basic but it's so beautifully and masterfully done that I think it's a great place to start. And I think a lot of people do that in in any kind of art medium I've even seen that uh even stamp comedians you know will rehearse line for line uh other standups uh routines just to get the timing right to get the punch lines right to kind of get the pauses and uh you know into their routine before they branch out and actually do their own stand-up. Of course if they pass that off as their own work that would be you know something different. But again when I started it was okay this is how you make knives is you do dovetail bolsters you you taper the tang you know you uh you should have a swooping plunge line because it's not just for aesthetics it's a it's actually a stronger blade uh you know it rather than having a square uh plunge line at the Picasso you actually have a curved plunge line that's stronger so that those all um made sense to me not just in that in from the aesthetic point of view but actually from a a functional and structural point of view that this is how you make knives and as I I kind of grew and and made my own styles and things and made my own changes I I branched out into my own unique style that still has flavors and elements of Jay Fisher.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

You can see some Bob Loveless in there I've got some designs that are like a dropped hunter and some kind of uh double-edged fighters kind of like the New York special but with my own kind of spins on those things and I've never once felt like I had to really apologize or defend myself for for having the style that I do yeah well um I'm interested in what got you into um in into the lapidary side or stone stone side of knives themselves. I mean I know that you said it's a progression because that's what you saw and so that's what you did but um how how exactly are you um cutting out and and shaping your stone are you doing it all on on lapidary equipment or kind of what's your what's your process?

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah yeah all lapidary equipment and stonework is is uh as a whole nother beast it's there's sometimes I kick myself like why did I do this it's so difficult to do because there's times I I just feel like my life would be a lot easier if I stuck with wood or my card or something. But I got into stone because uh for part of the same reason that I got a knife making it all was that knives and blades kind of again growing up seeing you know fantasy movies and you know things like Lord of the Rings and Dragon Slayer and uh the blade whether that sword dagger knife you know spear just had a certain mystique to it that was so um inviting to me and so interesting that there was this almost a magical element to having your own personal sidearm that is a blade. And naturally stone kind of had the same feeling you know there's there's been lots of sacred stones and ancient stones with script and uh magical powers that were attributed to stone and um the idea of having a a handle material that took millions if not billions of years to form that had color and character and and crystals and little fractures and um little spots of quartz and um hematite and and things like that was so fascinating to me that it was just natural that I wanted to combine kind of that mystical element of of the steel of of a blade to the kind of magical mystical properties of of polished stone. That if you could combine the two you would have a a really without overselling my work at all but almost like this magical um blade this magical sword or knife or or what have you so that that's kind of how I got into that again and and seeing seeing it on other knives was was the most beautiful thing ever. I like color um I think a lot there's a lot of very beautiful woods you know out there but they all kind of can stay in a the same kind of color gradient. Whereas with stone you could have reds and pinks and blues and greens and just you know the it just kind of encompasses the the whole electromagnetic spectrum all reflected in a natural material of stone. And the idea of stone being timeless and um just fascinated me. But to answer your question yes there is lapidar equipment that that that's needed for that. So it's diamond tooling it's diamond saws and diamond belts and uh everything has to be run with with water so everything's water cooled um so there's mud all over in the shop. I mean I get covered in mud you know every time I grind a handle and it dries out your hands it's it's it's a messy difficult sometimes painful work to to grind and cut and polish stone especially for a knife. But at the end of the day when you when you've got it finished and you can see the that glistening sparkly stone depending on the material that it is um as your handle on the finished knife there's just there's just nothing like it. And um while there's many people that do stone it's still fairly rare in the knife making world I don't see too many stone handles. I see a lot of stone inlays and and things um but it's still something that I don't see too often that I like to kind of put my stamp on and say yeah I I do stone handles as part of my my signature as it were and that's how I got into that it's just um so beautiful and fascinating to me. And and the way I got into it too I actually thought it was more difficult um than it was I I actually got it fit came across a forum online where there was some just lapidary hobbyists and they were putting you know little cabochon inlays into jewelries and things and you know just kind of like a hobby forum. But one person said he was working on a a knife handle that he was you know he just took a an old buck knife and took the the wood scales off it and was putting on uh some kind of agate I forgot what it was onto the handle and I thought well if this guy's just a hobbyist and he's doing on a hand on a on a knife handle I actually make knives I I think I could do it. And again seeing J Fisher that that I knew it could be done. So I I did some research and I kind of jumped in with both feet took out a small loan for a bunch of diamond belts and some small diamond saws and kind of jumped into it. It was a lot harder than I actually thought it was uh even to this day I like I said I I kick myself like gosh why did I commit to doing stone handles it's so hard um but again it's it's so gratifying you know and to have something so unique to have this uh I'm currently working working on a knife uh for the solving show the the handle is Australian dragon stone and it's this kind of sea green stone with these red spots in it just this beautiful flowy earthy kind of material um which again I think reflects well the the kind of designs I'm doing um I always wanted my knife stick how kind of have a very grounded in earth as it were kind of design. It's very earthy it's very flowy it it has a very organic look and feel to it. So having a natural material as hard and as um beautiful as stone just seemed like a natural progression for me.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Yeah uh yeah I have a there was a knife that you recently posted uh that you finished on January 8th it's a uh I don't uh don't uh don't mind if I butcher this but the Sylva is it Sylvanus uh model or sylvanus? Oh my Sylvanus Sylvanus yeah uh yeah and that whatever the red stone was that you used in that was incredible.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah yeah it it that's that was uh Cave Creek Jasper it's uh it's uh a red Jasper mined out of um Arizona um beautiful deep rich red color that comes from iron oxides and uh some little reflective bits of hematite in it that gives it kind of um little streaks of this metallic look to it. Very beautiful stone and I like that deep rich red color. Red's my favorite color so actually at every show I gotta have one one knife handle that's got red in it.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yeah. Well um one thing I really like um about your aesthetic too is uh when you're using stone there's no visible pins on uh a bunch of knives that I've seen are you are those are they like indexed with hidden pins on the inside or how how exactly is that being fastened to the uh tang?

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Yeah so how that's bonded is uh it's a combination of both mechanical and um adhesive so the the the dovetails in the bolster uh creates one type of mechanical hold and there's also hidden pins in the stone as well as um a very high bond it's actually an acrylic adhesive so it's not an epoxy that bonds incredibly well to stone to steel um so after everything's bonded in place with the hidden pins and the and the bolsters it's it is bonded forever. In fact I'll even dry fit the stone before um I put any any of the the bonding in and actually got one stuck and I I couldn't get it undone um it was such a tight fit. So once it's bonded in place and the the good thing with stone too is that there's no thermal expansion or it doesn't absorb oils or waters and expand or swell. So once it's bonded it is it is there for good. I've never had a knife fail with my bonding method.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah well um I think um stone as a medium um so when I was a kid there were two things I really loved uh one was uh well knives and by virtue guns because I was getting like guns and ammo magazines and and everything but I I loved the idea of being a rock hound. Um I uh had a rocks rocks and gems uh magazine subscription and uh Opal um and a few other gems were just like I would just sit there and look at these stones for forever. Jasper was one of them uh quartz I was really really liked and also uh gold in in quartz matrix was really cool. Um do you um when you're sourcing out your stones do you find yourself going to like uh like rocks and gems type of uh uh expos like uh exposes or um stone meats or things like that in order to select it or kind of um how how how deeply have you got into the rock collecting uh component of uh that as it relates to knives um I don't I don't collect too many rocks I mean anything that I that I have that's rock related is is meant for my knives um you know I've even found rock sculptures or carvings that I thought like oh I bet I could slab that up and make a knife handle out of that after someone spent you know 100 hours carving something out of it but um yeah growing up too like I I kind of had this a similar uh thing growing up is I I loved polished stones my dad would um uh work for the power company he'd actually have to go uh out of town to you know some of the other plants to to work on uh you know in some of their plants and on the way back he'd pass through Wyoming and he'd bring me and my brothers home polished stones like some some tiger's eye and um unickite and things like that and just I was fascinated with those too um and how I sell source my stones now is um I I've actually seen a couple things at some uh rock shows and um there's lots of uh um jewelry stores that actually will sell stone slabs I've actually had a couple slabs uh purchased at um high-end jewelry source in Park City um they're kind of all over the place there's even people that sell big slabs on eBay the biggest issue with with stone handles at least for the handle sizes that I'm doing is you need a big enough piece of rock to get both sides of the handle or you can if you can find um multiple pieces of the same stone enough to get a handle out of uh which can be difficult to to find big enough pieces yeah well I mean when you posted up uh the your most recent uh work with that dragon stone or whatever I saw that just barely barely fit uh yeah I uh I I've had that stone in in my inventory for a while and and I I can't seem to find any more pieces of it that are a good enough size that have a good enough pattern too which again as a side note which is another very fascinating thing about the stone sometimes I find a piece of stone uh for a handle and I can never find it ever again which makes that particular knife I made the handle with totally unique.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

I mean even if I made that same model again that that one knife I did with whatever stone whether it's a Jasper Agate or a you know a sodolite or a lapis lazuli or malachite whatever it is if I can't find that same pattern again or even that same stone ever again well that knife kind of has its own unique value uh that it wouldn't have otherwise yeah so yeah I I really like uh Labradorite too um there's I've I've yeah I've seen uh was Stefano uh uh Naradelli I have a butcher's name I'm sure um in in Italy uh has done a lot with uh uh stone in his own uh pocket knife craft and whatnot and um it's uh it's interesting to me I mean the the the upfront cost to be able to work with stone is is a lot higher but man I've always I think that's probably the reason why I haven't done it.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Um I've always wanted to um but I haven't really incorporated it in because of the additional equipment and space that I have to have. It's the same reason why I don't do um my own engraving um yet right um but there's man I don't know there's so many options and and it's just like every every piece of stone does tell its own story. It's the same way with the people who put meteorite in their blades or whatever, um whether they're inlaying them or incorporating them into the steel if they can do it. But all all the different fossil uh fossilized stones and and things and and each each type of mineral with their content also has its own challenges with how you work it because some are you know more brittle or finicky than others. Right. I don't I there's a portion of me that thinks that maybe I would pull my hair out uh especially if I had this really nice looking piece of stone and then somehow like botched it or cracked it or something I'd just be like oh man.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Oh I've definitely had my fair share of those yeah I I I've had some beautiful beautiful slabs and I I go to to to cut it out and make the knife and there's um a pocket or a void. Sometimes they're called bugs that are uh in the stone that you didn't know about until you cut into it and you start grinding on it and um I haven't had it since but there was one Knife I was working on for a client, and I got the stone too hot and it and it cracked, and the whole knife is now ruined, you know, because it was actually bonded in place, but the stone cracked. Um which isn't to say that stone is is fragile. I mean, a lot of people think it's like glass, and as soon as you you touch it, it's gonna shatter, which isn't the case. Some stone, yes, is more fragile than others, and some stones can be crumbly, some stones are soft, some stones can actually bend a little bit, you know, depending on the its uh mineral composition. But um that stone stone is incredibly finicky, uh, and not every stone polishes the same way. Some stones can take a glass-like polish, some stones can take kind of a you know, a glossy, shiny polish, and some stones won't polish at all, and it just kind of looks like you're polishing a turd on your handle. So um it's yeah, it's it's it's definitely fascinating to work with stone, but it's as equally frustrating. Um another common thing that happens with uh polishing stone is when you get a stone that that's that undercuts. That is to say that um there's minerals that are harder, some minerals that are harder than other minerals in there. So you actually will get kind of an orange peel effect, where some of the softer material gets polished out and the hard material is left on the surface, so you get kind of an orange peel effect, which kind of ruins the whole aesthetic that you're going for. And you have to kind of figure out ways around those polishing pitfalls. So it's incredibly frustrating. Uh, but if you can pull it off, again, like to have uh a polished stone that that's cool to the touch, that just is smooth as glass, and it just it feels different in your hand. There's there's a weight to it, there's a uh kind of a an earthiness to it that just it just feels different when you hold it in your hand, uh, which again is something that attracted me to doing stone in in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Yeah, um well uh one one thing I noticed um so you made reference to Lucas films, you made reference to Dune, uh you made reference to um well I I saw that you made your own lightsaber uh in twenty twenty sixteen. Um are you uh are you a big fantasy buff or like kind of uh uh is that is that part of uh something that you uh you do in your in your free time?

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Oh absolutely, yeah. I mean that that's it's been part of the impetus with with knives at all was uh again having that mystique of of the blade, the sword, you know, like Andalf hat Glamdring, and you know, um uh in the Hobbit books, uh you know, Thorn Oakenshield has uh Orchestra, you know, they all had names, you know. That was part of my my attraction to knife making at all was uh my basis in fantasy novels and fantasy movies. I I was currently listening to uh re-listening to Lord of the Rings again in my shop. I have an audiobook where I'm listening to Lord of the Rings while I'm working on knives. So yes, definitely that's that's been a big um impact on me personally in my life as well as uh in my knife making.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Yeah, I um well I I'm I mean I'm pretty pretty well read, I guess. I mean I've I've read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and try to pick up fantasy novels here and there. There's a um there is a book series uh by Jim Butcher uh called the Dresden series. I don't know if you've heard it heard of it, but um I've heard of them. I've not read them. Oh, dude. They are they're all really good books. Um not only is he a phenomenal writer, uh, but one thing that's interesting about like the wizarding world, as it were, um, with uh the Dresden files is uh he makes uh a lot of his own implements for magic, basically. Um and I always thought that that was super cool. Uh basically the the uh mechanisms for like what what these things do, these natural elements and how they kind of channel magic and stuff. So if you're a if if you ever get the opportunity, um uh Jim Marsters, um he he has uh read all uh all of his books uh into audiobooks and that they're like phenomenal reads, uh whether whether they're audiobooks or whether you're reading the the actual books, and I would highly recommend it. It's just uh it's it's uh I think it's right in that same kind of vein of uh of you know what what you're uh what you what you're you know exposing yourself to and the kind of the fantasy side of it. Oh I'd I'd definitely like to check that out.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Yeah, it's uh it's funny too. Like I've actually been read currently reading a book as I'm designing a knife, not at the same time, but like kind of if I'm reading a book or listening to a book and I'm you know while I'm in a design process for a knife, I I actually will take elements from what I'm reading or or name knives after things in the book. Again, I was reading Dune at the time when I was designing a couple new knives that I actually named Caladan and Atreides and Stilgar and so all all characters and uh elements from the book. So that's kind of how I I've even named some of my models. And I kind of wanted something that was aggressive, you know. I was reading Dune at the time, you know. They talked about the Chris knife, you know, the made out of uh um one of the sandworms tooths, and I was like, oh, I want us I want a knife that's kind of aggressive, you know. I'm kind of reading this book. So I I came up with these uh these harpoon-style knives that uh kind of had these what I thought were kind of dune elements that I incorporated. So yeah, to kind of answer your question for a minute's yeah, some of the fan fantastical elements from from books and things have kind of influenced me as a knife maker.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah, well, and I I see that in your aesthetic. I think that that's part of like the the evolution of of what I see in your knives is is this the flow, right? Like you can you can tell when somebody's eye is towards I don't know, like elven knives or whatever. Like they they kind of have this uh this um description in Tolkien and other things where um where where they they they flow and they they they do lend themselves to the kind of aesthetic that you have, and I I could definitely see that. Like some some of your knives, I could just as easily see them being a uh a prop or a uh a homage to Tolkien's uh universe of uh of elven blades and whatnot, too. So I think that's pretty rad.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah, I you know a lot of them aren't actually intentional, it's just kind of how my designs kind of turn out as as I as I make them. Although I think it's it's kind of a subconscious element that that's in there that I I like things that flow. Again, I as I described earlier, I wanted my knives to have a very organic feel to them. There's a flow, it's I mean, there's kind of that balance between straight lines and and and curved lines. There's not a whole lot of straight lines on my knives at all, anyway, but I like things that are curvy, things that are have flow and uh kind of swoop. And uh I think every knife I have is a recurve. I I love the recurves. Um and I I like things that almost have motion to them, like you they almost looks like the knives are in motion even though they're standing still. And um I think having the fixed blades too as as my medium has allowed me to have some of those designs. I I love the folding knives, but I I I feel like you're kind of boxed in. With your your knife can only be so big it has to be able to fit inside its own handle, you know, it has to fold back into itself, whereas the fixed blade can be any size you want. And I tend to to gravitate towards longer blades, at least you know, much longer than the handle itself. And it kind of gives it this um how do I word this? It's uh it's almost it gives it some kind of motion to that when the blade is uh so much longer than the handle, which ironically enough, and uh harking back to my nerdy stuff, um George Lucas had the same idea with the X-Wings that it almost had uh he wanted this particular look to of the those spaceships to look like uh like a race car driver, like a almost like a funny car, that it has this very long nose and it kind of gives it more of a sleek, um fast looking uh design element to it. And I kind of want to incorporate that in my knife. So you'll you'll notice that most of my blades kind of have a very very long, lean, sleek look to them, which I personally like to make.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Well, yeah, and I mean I think that um it it's interesting how um art imitates life in that way, because if you think of Formula One cars and their the aerodynamics of it, there's a there's there's an underlying flow of air that makes those the most uh uh preferable design for the speeds and and control and stuff that they want. And so so so you know, like um that's what I uh when I was talking earlier about hyper focusing on a certain type of aesthetic, it's like you see something that you that you want to express in the medium of of knives or whatever. And when you drill down far enough to that, uh you really you you embody life and these natural elements that what like the evocative nature of of knives and and art in general is sometimes uh specific enough where uh people don't may not be able to put their finger on it um what exactly it is that they like about that um or or how it it makes it flow the way that it does, but it does it, right? Um I was talking with uh Delena about that on a recent episode, and it's that's basically the the kind of the concept. Like when I look at your knives, they do flow. They just uh they just are of visually appealing. There's like there's nothing that I see in your knives that I do not like about them. Um it's not uh the proportions, the finish, the materials, the um, you know, just everything about them to me uh is is yummy, right? It looks delicious to uh to my eyes. Oh, thank you. And uh well that's something that I, you know, in the time that I've been following you. It's been several years now that I've uh uh seen your work. Um but uh that's one of the reasons why I wanted to get you on here and talk a little bit about it, because like um it's uh to me it's very appealing uh and then to be able to talk to you about uh those and how how you consider them. Um one thing that I really have enjoyed is your leather working. Um because even like even though I really appreciate your knife, uh your knives and your uh knife aesthetic, um your sheaths add a completely different element that is also complementary to your knife aesthetic. Um even even down to when you're doing um uh I guess it's uh you're you're doing kydex sheets and things, like what what you've done with uh you know your flat sheets and whatnot has been uh really appealing to me as well as what you've done uh in complement to your your knives, uh, you know, your your other knives that are you know more fantasy or art artsy knives. Oh, I I appreciate that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

I I I really enjoy the leather work actually. Um it's funny, I there's been a lot of knife makers that I I've I've seen and heard about that said, oh I just make knives. I I can't stand doing leather work, I don't want to do leather work. And I find it quite enjoyable, um, especially to to make a complete package. It just seemed like the the knife was unfinished without the sheath. And of course, when I first started, I I I had a leather worker, and there was a a local guy, you know, just a couple of miles away from me that uh he was a saddle maker, and out of the scrap leather he'd he'd make sheaths for me. You know, I'd pay him like 25 bucks, he'd throw together a sheath. Um but anytime you pass on um an element of your work to someone else, uh you're bringing in another artist's vision, and it's hard to have that cohesive, you know, complete package that I that I wanted to achieve. So I decided to do my own leather work. Um so same thing as I started with making knives. I did a little bit of research, I kind of looked at some tools and things, and and it's a lot less involved to make leather sheets anyway, than than it is the knives. So having that that basis of making knives, transitioning to leather actually wasn't too difficult of a of a transition at all. Um course getting into inlays and things complicated quite a bit. You know, I was starting to work with uh exotic materials like you know, crocodile skin and uh frog skin and snake skin, ostrich. I mean, there's there's all kinds of skins, and they also have their own unique challenges for each one, you know, like uh cayman and alligator skins, you know, are very, very thick, plated, you know, hides, you know, that can be very difficult to cut through and um difficult to have inlays with, whereas snake skin is um a lot easier to cut through and and stitch up together. But uh yeah, I I wanted to have the knife and the sheath to be a complete, unique, cohesive package, you know, that uh I think it was even Bob Loveless that said that the sheath is the house of the knife, you know, it's kind of incomplete without it. Um so that's kind of how that got started. And I yeah, I I I quite enjoy it. You know, after the knife is finished, which is for me anyway, it's a very arduous process. I I mean it takes me a long time to finish a knife, especially with the stone handles, you know. You know, after you polish the blade, you know, it takes a couple days of hand sanding to get the kind of mirror finish I'm I'm achieving. Only to then spend hours you know cutting and grinding and fitting stone and then shaping it and polishing it to it's it's an arduous process to get one of my knives done. So leatherwork is actually a little bit of a uh more enjoyable to me. You know, I can do a lot of it inside the house, you know, it's just kind of cutting things out, stitching things together. And I do have to run out in the shop and you know, sand a couple things, but um leatherwork is uh a lot simpler, it's a lot more forgiving. You know, I can do a lot of stitching while I'm watching a movie with my wife, so it's that's not too much trouble. Um but yeah, I I appreciate your compliments. So yeah, I I definitely wanted something that was uh just as unique, just as uh aesthetically pleasing as the knife itself, you know, which is why I got into the inlays and things. And to I wanted something that was that as soon as you looked at it, you know, I when whenever someone buys a knife from me, uh uh at least a custom one, I I I ship it out in in its own uh custom box, you know, and I kind of wanted the impression that as soon as you opened the box and you saw the sheath and the knife there just perfectly balanced and meant for each other, that uh you knew that you were looking at a quality item, you know.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Well, yeah. I mean, in in um the the the kind of knives or the kind of sheaths I was talking about is uh your uh kydex over aluminum. Well Oh the kydex, sorry. Yeah, well well no no no no like uh uh your leather craft um I I appreciate everything you've said about that because I mean that is that's that's one one element of it. But you know, like even though you have these like incredible exotic sheaths, uh you know, even going to your kydex over aluminum, uh to me, I I I I look at those and I'm like, man, like where it seems so uh it seems so uh easy. And I don't mean easy as in like um easy to manufacture, but it seems so uh like rudimentarily it makes sense, right? When when when I look at the sheath, it's like man, everything has a place and everything has an uh an order, but the the the contrast between materials uh to me uh does so well and lends itself so well with the knife that uh that you make. Um I really like uh what you've done with your kydex over aluminum and how how you've presented that. It is in in its own way with those uh materials, um speaks just as uh uh as loudly about your prowess in design elements and at utilizing materials as your uh your leather sheets with exotic materials, too. Mm-hmm. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

I appreciate that too. Yeah, the the kydex over the aluminum that actually also, and I hate to admit this a little bit, that actually was inspired by Jay Fisher. Jay Fisher has, when he does his tactical line of knives, he does do kydex over an aluminum frame. And again, that was the only thing that made sense to me. I mean, I I see people that will will sandwich, you know, kydex you know with itself, but that has a tendency to bend and flex, you know, and if you're out in the woods, you know, you're running through the trees and things, uh, that kydex sheath, even though there's a knife in there, can still flex and uh can lead to some damage to the knife itself or or or to the to the person wearing the sheath. So having the aluminum frame made sense that you had a very, very light but very, very rigid um kind of skeleton for the sheath. And it also gave room for the knife to actually float in between the two kydex panels. That uh so the knife actually wasn't touching anything, the actual blade wasn't touching anything inside the sheath. Um, but you also have the benefits of the thermoforming of the of the the the kydex material, so you could have a very tight-fitting sheath, especially if you had some kind of uh retaining strap or locking mechanism that that kept the knife in there, but the blade itself was floating inside the sheath, so it wasn't touching anything. To me, that made sense from uh purely um from a utilitarian standpoint that that's the best way to do that is to have the the aluminum frame that acted as the skeleton. And the other benefit too is that you could actually drill into that aluminum and and uh uh tap holes for uh mounting plates and for retaining straps and all kinds of things. And I've even done uh custom orders for people where um I was able to mount uh flashlights and um you know other other small tools onto the sheath itself because you have that aluminum frame that could be drilled and tapped into. So to me, that again, that that's what made the most sense. Um and I also like to add my own artistic flair. I'll put liners in between the aluminum and the and the kydex, uh kind of like how people would do um uh fiber liners in between the handle material for their knives. So I I would make them match, you know. It's uh I can't help but make things match and and look aesthetically pleasing, even though they don't necessarily need to be. Again, when I do a tactical knife, it's it just needs to be totally utilitarian. Um, but I can't help myself. I I have to put some kind of line or something that uh makes it, you know, or or something that gives it a little bit of flair, and I'll do that with the with the kydex sheets too. And um just as I do with the uh my leather for my more exotic knives, um they have to match. They have to be a uh a cohesive set.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

So yeah, that'll make sense. Uh so I know that you mentioned earlier on that um you worked full-time too. Um what exactly uh what exactly do you do for a nine to five?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Um I work full-time as a security uh officer. I'm actually in a management position, so I I I help manage a small team of security officers for um uh private company. Which is uh it's it's a good job. You know, I enjoy it. Um I like to be in a that kind of role, uh naturally protective, I guess. And that's been a good job. But all day when I'm there, I'm I'm thinking about either my wife or or my knives.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

So well, yeah, that's kind of like the the next thing I was gonna ask because um I thought I saw that you uh you worked in uh security and whatnot. Um I you also got your uh EMT certification not a long, long time ago, correct?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:57

Yeah, yeah. I I got my EMT certification for my security job. Um being in the kind of corporate office that I'm in, you know, it's good to have um some kind of medical training to to assist when people have issues, which is inevitable in any kind of setting. Um and then I had to renew my license uh just this past year. And that was kind of a hard thing to get. I uh definitely took some stressful nights trying to make sure my I could get my EMT license. Uh it's it's not like getting a you know um a PhD or getting a medical a real medical license, but it definitely took some some effort to get.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Oh yeah. I mean uh any anything in those kind of fields, uh well, especially in uh r response to disaster or um acute situations. I mean, you have to think in a completely different mode than where you can articulate everything out. And so um I I can't uh imagine the kind of you know rigorous thought processes required to be able to triage things uh and uh you know know when to call it and kind of what you can do, that's life-saving measures and so on and so forth. So um uh it's uh it's interesting to me uh that you know the uh because I work in cybersecurity. Right. Uh so oftentimes I'm actually using uh I'm using a lot of the same brain cells that I'm uh doing, like articulating in security and cyber and engineering and stuff like that, inside of the context of what I'm doing with knives. Um there's I'm a lot more technology driven than some knife makers. Um, you know, uh design websites for knife makers uh here and there. Uh but the uh a lot of my time is spent thinking about knives. I mean, I I it's you know it goes without saying that I think about my family a lot too. But I have been yeah, I have been blessed to uh be able to work from home the last four years. Uh but previous to that, you know, I'd worked uh worked online or at home um or worked online or uh in in an office uh situation and i um it's it's interesting to me where if if i could replicate the um the the financial stability of working full-time in knives um i would I would probably do knives uh but you know working in a uh you know a stabilized uh work environment uh is a lot less tenuous um than uh than than being a full-time knife maker and I really my hat's off to people who can do it. But that that to me seems like it's already stressful enough to make knives for shows and to do things like have deadlines but then to do that um every day and knowing that that's what's feeding your family and whatnot to me just seems stressful beyond um what I think that I I'm capable of.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:50

Oh for sure. No it's it's funny I I still would love to to push knives into a full-time gig and uh you know I'm getting a lot of attention now and I've I've sold a lot of knives and it it's it's my favorite thing in the world is is making knives and I'd love for that to be something that's uh you know uh a bigger than it is now but you know you still gotta work full time and uh it it definitely is difficult to to be doing that to uh that is to work full time and make knives you know while I'm trying to get ready for shows and things. You know again I'm the solving show uh which for me is a big deal uh seems like there's uh quite a few really big time makers there and to be invited was uh both uh very encouraging and inspiring as much as it is uh stressful to get ready for something as uh prestigious as that um while still trying to work full time so yeah I'll I'll put in you know my 40 hours a week as well as you know uh 20 to 30 hours in the shop you know I still work out every day and it's it's definitely hard to balance and my my wife is is so wonderful and so supportive of everything but she'll have to say hey you need to take a break you need to take a step back so yeah I get that just kind of a work well because it's well yeah and and you know when you when you enjoy what you're doing um you can get lost in it like uh the other night I was out in the shop uh and I star I started late later in the evening after our uh daughter had been asleep and I was out there working on something and here it is like 2 30 in the morning and I'm and I'm totally lost in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

Um and I I can lose four or five six hours uh doing stuff in the shop if I if I don't watch myself I could just get lost in you know what I am doing. Oh absolutely um almost almost addictive in some ways but um when when it comes to shows uh do you have I mean considering the uh the large amount of time that you have in labor to make your knives do you have a particular number uh that you tried to go for on pieces that you're going to take to a show yeah I I tried to keep it um between five and six knives or or fewer uh if if I can get away with it I think for solving they said they they wanted five knives at least um which is kind of my max for the time frame that I I was in to to make brand new knives I had I had a couple of knives left over from from the past show that I could take but I you know as an artist I want to push myself and do the next thing and I want to be able to show a brand new set of knives especially when you know on the table that they're kind of one whole unique um art piece you know when all four five or six or hardware knives are on the table.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

So yeah generally I I'd like to have five if I can make that it seems like a good solid number where you can fill up the table space and uh kind of present a good body of work that shows different design elements and different different unique blade blade designs. So that's what I shoot for. But even even this one now I've got the I'm almost done with the current knife and I have three knives left to finish in the next you know three months so I'm really pushing up there. But um I think I can do it but uh kind of like you said uh you you can kind of get lost in it too. There's been a couple times when um I've I've been in the shop for you know 10 or 11 hours and then my wife says are you uh coming home because uh we we actually just live uh about seven minutes away from my parents' house which is where I I've set up shop you know my wife and I are currently in a you know in an apartment so not a whole lot of room for knife making there so I'll I'll get lost in things and um I'll lose track of time. It's it's such a passion you know um especially though when you got you do have a deadline to to meet that makes it the pressure uh turned up a little bit uh but there's even been times when you know I'm I'm almost done with this particular step or oh if I can just get this knife and clamps you know what that'd that'd make me feel better to at least feel like I'm on track more and hey babe can I just jump in the shop and do this really quick you know um and not that I ever don't want to spend time with her she's oh she's my best friend I I want to spend every waking minute with her but I also do have to get these knives done so there's kind of that that push and pull of trying to balance you know uh just get getting your goals met and and being there for your family which can be difficult for I I imagine for a lot of just artists.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Oh yeah uh and uh I I've kind of come to this what's the word um well I I work full time I work a lot of of of hours um holistically um and I I spend a lot of time uh taking care of my family is probably the wrong word but you know like I have a a daughter with a um you know a heart condition I mean she's medically fragile in some ways um and and I liked I l after you know everything that we've gone through with her and losing uh Christian and whatnot I've uh I've really said that my first obligation and the thing that I want to spend the most time on is my family and everything after that is secondary uh even even work uh to some extent it's like you know you have to be able to like uh you know cut out and and not focus on work. For me working from home it's like it's very easy just to say okay I'm just gonna sit at my desk and work on something um off hours or whatever. Uh but um I've kind of last this past year um and with kind of with the economy uh knife shows have not been like the greatest selling vehicles for me. And um the the so I I didn't see you at Atlanta because I wasn't there but the previous two years I was there and I had thought about going uh setting up everything to go this year but I think that I'm I'm pretty resolved that in in my life um right now uh what I want to focus on is what is coming out of my shop that is not uh time based but is like drive based so I I can actually focus on things that I really want to do and less about trying to keep up with the rat race of selling and going to shows and you know investing in that because it's it's quite expensive. I spent an exceptional amount of money uh the last few years going to shows and maybe selling some knives and whatnot. So in in my mind at least um I think that I'm I'm done with going to major shows very often and instead going to be going to very selective shows and um as an exhibitor and then focusing most of my time in knives on nurturing the podcast and also making knives that I really uh just want to flex a side of my creative mind that I just can't I can't do when there's a gun to your head and when there's deadlines to be made.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:57

So yeah it's it's definitely more enjoyable when you've got the time to just just create just let it flow you know when you're when you're frustrated in the shop you you have time to step away and say you know I'm gonna put this down for a little bit I'll come back to it tomorrow or next next week or next month even if you wanted to uh which you kind of can't do when you've got that deadline of the show which um yeah it definitely adds some pressure to um to the craft which can kind of lower the enjoyability level a little bit. I I mean I I do love it too I I I like I like staying busy I like feeling like I'm working hard on things which which I am you know it's it's it's a an enormous amount of work to uh just make the the knives themselves let alone like make sure that your your travels um all set and you know your accommodations are you know booked and everything it's it's definitely a lot um and where I'm at now like after um doing two blade shows you know we had a great time we had a great response but I think um I want to whittle that down to kind of like you said more selective shows and I think um with the kind of work that I'm doing I I want to stick to more art knife uh shows um like like the Soul Bang show if if it's a successful show maybe that'll be kind of a yearly re reoccurrence and and there's other shows that I I have as kind of like my my um my mecha shows you know I I would love to one day do the art knife invitational if I if I could ever get good enough for that kind of show or the arts and metal show. There's there's lots of shows around the the country that um are more specific to um uh the higher end pieces which I would love to to break into more but as far as the you know kind of a a general knife show which is what Blade show was which is amazing for for a kind of general knife enthusiast I mean there's there's anything that you could think of you know from forge knives to art knives to you know the latest uh manufacturer flipper knife you know to ballasongs you know there's really anything under the sun at those shows um but I want to get in something that's more specific you know and that is the you know the art knives shows so my wife and I we're we're excited we're thrilled we're counting down the days to uh um to solving which um coincidentally is actually on my birthday it's gonna be uh april twenty sixth is is is my birthday and that's the the first day of the the solving show so we're hoping we'll just we'll make it a uh you know a trip you know we'll we'll just spend some time in solving and we'll you know get to shake hands with some great people and uh meet some great uh collectors and yeah we're looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

Yeah well yeah well um I I would go I think um if I remember correctly there's uh there's a nice show that I have that's a little local sh like more local show uh that's uh earlier in well no maybe it's the same time as so that and uh and we try to reserve uh the end of April because that's when my son passed uh to just you know not really be too busy. Um so um you know there's there's all sorts of like you know memorials to things that when you uh suffer tragedy um and but you know the the thing about it is like one day I'd like to be able to go out and uh uh at least attend the show and be able to see all the fantastic makers that are out there. I do agree um like the there are a ton of I say not ton there are there are shows out there that makers can zero in on that have the specificity to the kind of craft that they want to be in. And that's the wonderful part about knives too is like you know Blade Show Atlanta is like overwhelming. I've never the the times that I've been exhibiting out there I've just always felt uh you know that I was uh trying to keep my head above water um and you know be engaging and kind of have everything that you know you want to say or express or whatever at the show uh all all hemmed up before you actually get there. Uh and uh what we've done is uh Blade Show Texas is actually um only about a 17 minute drive from us. Um and yeah it is and so that'll that'll be one of my staple shows um I don't know what else I'll be doing. I probably uh I'll give it a few years to see if I reincorporate Atlanta. I'd love to love to be able to go out to uh Salt Lake and to the uh West show and just like look around and see because it's a different it's a different demographic and it's a different set of uh makers. I know that there's like makers that go to all three shows but then it also invites some of those uh um west coast and uh um uh you know uh Pacific North uh Westerners up uh are down to the show and so that to me is interesting. I think probably I'll spend more time actually going to shows as a normal uh uh uh you know civilian uh uh a normie yeah yeah yeah I'll I'll pay I'll pay I'll pay the normal ticket prices I'll get in the same time everybody else does and just enjoy the the culture of the knife show versus the stress involved with exhibiting uh but uh I don't know uh as of us recording this I have a few weeks left to get some knives done for uh for Blade Texas which uh we'll see uh when when all this uh when all this drops online uh it'll be pretty close to Blade Show Texas maybe a little bit after um it's been done but um you know I go I go through these uh uh phases where I get a lot of work done and then because of work and family I don't have a lot of time in the sh uh in the shop. Uh so as it stands right now I have zero knives done. But the knives that I make um and the materials that I use like I generally need to make a full show spread about two and a half or three weeks. Most of what I I have I have set up is I like uh grind out all my stuff. Like I figure out kind of what I want to make and I grind out all of my uh profiles and do ever all the heat treating and surface grinding and everything. So that way what I'm more focused on is the um you know grinding the blades and doing the handled materials and finishing them out in the last few weeks before a show. That way if I if I do get bogged down with like normal life stuff I still have the ability to push through and get knives finished that are kind of in some state of being finished versus just starting off from you know bar one and having to grind everything out you know from scratch.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

Yeah that's kind of where I'm at now I've I've got I like I said I had five knives planned for for solving and um they're all heat treated they're all hollow ground they're all tapered you know they're they've all got bolsters that are um shaped and and ready for pinning um but they're not mere finished yet so I I find it kind of daunting to to finish a knife and sheath and start from square one all over again. You know uh I look at this this big bar of steel I'm like oh my gosh I don't want to do that again. So having them a little more than halfway finished kind of gives me a good starting point. You know once I finish an act like I just pull the the next one off the off the hanger and just start handstanding it and uh get that one polished and get the stone fitted and so but I I'm not I'm not a big badge kind of guy. Again the my knives can take gosh they can take over a month just to finish one. And then just the sheath too can take about a week of of work to to get a sheath done. So doing them in large batches is is difficult for me. Most I can do is probably like five in in in a batch. But having them at least started you know definitely helps mentally than to you know just see a just this rock and um a bar of steel and a couple you know fasteners just is a little daunting. So getting a started definitely helps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:58

Well and I'm kind of the same way. Like uh to be honest with you even in big shows and I I make smaller knives typically I don't make uh a lot of long long blades or big buoys or uh drop points or things like that. I make a lot of smaller um what you probably consider in the EDC realm of knives but they're they're like they're like hunting and skidding knives that are more uh flashy in some ways um with you know sometimes I'll do dovetail bolsters a lot of them are bolster work a lot of them are kind of uh I I I figure out kind of what handle materials I want to work with uh but if I make more than like seven or eight sometimes I feel like it like the ideas are derivative of that at that point like I'm doing the same thing but just on a different pattern knife. And so what I I try to do, you know obviously is not not focus too much on using the same handle materials. But because of that it's like there's certain handle materials and certain aesthetics or whatever finishes and uh whatnot that um I'm pretty much like I'll do it one time uh for one knife for that show and then that's it for that thing. Not a lot of like I love desert iron wood um but if I have too many knives that have desert ironwood on it I kind of like uh don't like it. So I'll just like pick you know one material for one knife and that's it for that. But you know there's so much like the the way that you finish out uh desert ironwood versus the way that you finish out you know your micartas or even other types of softer woods or whatever is just a little bit different.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:29

And um I imagine that's probably like the same kind of tedium of working with stones is that like they kind of even though they do behave as stone they also have their own nuances that make it uh something that you can't just lather rinse or pee is i even if you do have the handle material um uh in in a quantity enough where you can make more than one oh yeah definitely yeah like I was telling you before you each stone is so different I mean that there's uh a gradient of hardness too I'm I don't know if you're familiar with the Mo's hardness scale um it's a scale of one to ten uh that that's grading uh the hardness of minerals yeah one being like talc and number 10 is diamond you know we know diamond is uh probably the hardest material that we we have at our exposure which is why it's in industrial grinding operations and things and a lot of my stones can fall between five and a half to seven on the hardness scale so seven being a that's a that's a fairly hard material to cut through and to to grind and and to polish. Generally speaking though the the harder materials tend to have a better polish. They tend to have that real glassy polish which I which I really like but yeah it's hard to cut through and uh it can be very very tedious um some stones you know I I did one it was called uh the stone with shatterkite it's uh a copper bearing silicate uh which is about I would guess four maybe four and a half on the hardness scale probably even softer than that which is a lot more enjoyable you know some of it I was actually able to sand by hand with just some uh silicone carbide paper uh to get that polished so but some stones yeah are just such a thing to get through um but again nothing nothing beats stone as far as I'm concerned as far as unique uh the unique characteristics of stone and its uh overall value I think but it also does drive the cost of a bit you know because you you've got a you know a a small investment well I wouldn't say small uh a good sizing investment just in um in tooling to to do stone um you know like uh I mentioned before I do I use diamond belts you know that are water cooled uh which I also have I had to modify machinery to to have water pans and things to to catch the water and drains and things and uh just one of the diamond belts is you know is $150 you know and I've got like 30 of them in the shop. So and and then there's there's polishing oxides and things and little diamond polishing pads and discs and um so um but yeah it's it's an investment but it but it's it's been a lot of fun but uh I can't quite remember what your question was I started to sort of ramble on stone there again but uh no no I mean that's uh that's what that's what we're about here rambling and and just riffing off of each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:23

Um well you know Bob Bob uh Terzuola had uh had brought up jade carving um since he had started in jade carving and then got into knives and I've uh I've man I I I wish that I was of the um the mind to invest in that kind of stuff and had the space for it. But maybe in a few years I think I'd get to a place where I can start really playing in that space. But in in the meantime, there's artists like you that I live vicariously through and um and can can see the wonderful work that you do. And um you know I it's really been uh a pleasure to get to speak with you and have you on the podcast and everything. And uh I'll be interested to see what your final set is for Solvang and follow you kind of from there. One thing that I try to do is uh make sure uh everybody's social media um uh is on uh is linked to the the the episodes that we do uh so I'm yeah more than happy to share that out and if you ever if you ever get the um the mind to uh have a uh website or whatever just let me know and I'll help you out with that because I know I was scrolling kind of going through the internets of things and noticed that you didn't have one. But uh your your Yeah yeah yeah your work is definitely we're working on a new one yeah yeah well if you ever need any help you let me know. But you know it's oh I appreciate like definitely your your artwork is is gallery uh style and I think that uh in in photographs and in a website to be able to see that in more than just uh what you're doing on social be really great especially since it it's uh I I appreciate that in in your specific um um craft style and everything uh you share an awful lot of behind the scenes type of stuff um which uh allows me to not only wrap my head around the processes but then also like deeply appreciate the level of uh of uh time and energy that you put into your knives um but you know uh to be able to do that on a website and to have more of a a gallery curated I think that that's uh definitely beneficial especially with all the stuff that uh is going on with social media and kind of silencing knife makers because they're grouped into the weapons category. Yeah yeah a lot of crackdown on that stuff so yeah I I think diversification is the uh name of the game with uh knife makers especially anybody who makes any type of uh um tools or you know implements of some kind that could be associated with you know tactical or weapons uh I think it's definitely beneficial that people diversify. Uh but you know I just uh man I appreciate your your time on here uh good luck with the show um and uh when this episode comes up I'll make sure I let you know no thank you so much it's been my pleasure to be on thanks for having me on here absolutely thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast remember that you were loved and God bless you