The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Join me as I talk to other knifemakers, craftsmen and artisans in my journey to unpack the mysteries of knifemaking, and the culture by which it's built. This podcast features interviews with many of the men and women who have built, or are building the industry of knives and knife making as we know it today. Visit us at thegoodolbladespodcast.com!
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The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Episode 41 - Lucky Lucky - John Horrigan
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John Horrigan is one of those men that makes you better by being in his presence. A true blue God fearing American, that holds his knife art in humble regards, but his reverence for the craft of knifemaking with great esteem. Maybe at first I thought John was unapproachable because of this, but he's one of the kindest and most thoughtful people out there, and really shines bright in our industry. It's not a wonder that he's won awards, achieved Master Smith with the ABS, is a member of The Knifemakers' Guild, or is generally acknowledged as one of the premier art knife makers of the industry. He screams excellence, but it comes from a very introspective and inventive place. John constantly challenges himself, and his encouragement and words of wisdom in this episode really is an inspiration for anyone trying to find their way around this big world we call knife making.
You can find John on Social Media such as Instagram and Facebook, and also find more out about him on his Website.
I am here. And join me as we talk to other pacemakers and everything in the face. John Horgan at first glance screams hoo-ah. A true military man, law enforcement officer, and firefighter. But with many of my guests, it's what's below the surface that brings us together. And Horgan is no different in that a wealth of creativity and artistic ability bruised behind steely eyes and an upright demeanor. John started making knives in 1982 and has achieved his master bladesmith accreditation with the ABS. But even with his many achievements and awards, John is one of the most humble and intelligent makers I have ever known. What's more, John's eye for artistic expression, balance, and utility constantly show up in everything he touches. I think this is important to note because of the sheer variability of mediums he tries out. Whether it's his heirloom quality buoy knives or automatic knives with stone inlays, daggers, swords, tomahawks, real-world fighting knives, or slip joints. You can tell John made them. And what's more, you know he's thought through the process with reference and his artistic pioneering soul. It's hard to pick one or even a few things that I like about John's work. I love it all. And as I've come to know him a little better through his interview, I like John the person a whole hell of a lot, too. John, it's great to get some time with you on the Good Old Blades podcast. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Good to be here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So um is this your first podcast?
SPEAKER_01It is. First, uh hopefully not the last, but the first one ever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm actually uh surprised on that, especially with as uh as much as you get talked about in knife circles and whatnot. But um it's uh you know an extreme pleasure to have you on and to uh be able to talk knives in life with you.
SPEAKER_01Well thank you. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, we had a little bit of time when we were getting all this uh technology stuff figured out before the podcast to kind of get to know each other. And um I well, first I think uh uh you deserve an introduction. I'd like you to kind of just uh maybe talk a little bit about uh you know life and and whatnot, and how you know, I guess what precipitated uh you getting into knives. And then from there I have you know some questions to ask you um that kind of go back to some uh earlier conversations that we had before we started hitting the record button. Does that sound good? Yeah, sounds good.
SPEAKER_01Um I guess um grew up on a farm in Maine, and I guess I I started using knives at an extremely early age. Um I remember whittling a piece of white pine with my father and making it into a seal when I was about seven years old, and I was butchering uh chickens and pigs, you know, at about that age also. Um so I I really kind of knew what I liked in a knife, uh, shapewise. And then uh we moved to Texas when I was 12. Um, you know, climate uh wasn't that great in Maine. There wasn't any jobs either. Um so mom didn't want us working at a five and dime for the rest of our life. So we moved to Texas um and moved into uh outside of Austin, Texas, a little uh town called Sunsee Valley. And I actually started making some knives out of car springs. Um and I had read The Iron Mistress and watched the movie and was really intrigued uh with the Jim Bowie aspect. And really, you know, if I have one knife, it's probably the Bowie knife. I mean, and and that uh from that earlier age, I guess that was what influenced me the most um about knives was was his. And I made my first knife, actual knife, that I was actually fairly proud of in high school. And I was 16 years old, and it was shop class, and you could either make a plant uh hanger or you could make a knife, and you got graded on the piece. And I'd already made a plant hanger, so I'm like, I'm gonna make a knife. And I made a piece out of 01, out of cherry wood handle. Uh the shop teacher uh pretty much had did the heat treating and the hardening or the tampering for me because I didn't really know what I was doing at the time. And then I got graded on the piece, and my son actually still hunts uh and uses that knife every time he goes out to Colorado or New Mexico or whatever. And I've been kind of piddling with knives ever since. I uh joined the military at 19, was in the Ranger Battalion with my twin brother. And after three years, I kind of just said, you know, there's gonna be an easier way of making money than this. So I got out and got on with the sheriff's office. Uh, was a deputy for a while. And then same thing. I said, there's gotta be an easier way to make money than this. And I got on with the Austin Fire Department and just retired after 24 years with them uh about two years ago. And now I'm a starving full-time knife maker just like everybody else out there. That's uh kind of kind of a little quick history uh of me on it.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah. So when at what point in time when you were making knives did you decide to go through the ABS and and I guess what what was the progression from like the the early shop class knife to uh where you're at today? Can you talk a little bit about like kind of what that journey looks like? Because you I mean you're very accomplished in your making. Um you know, you have m Master Smith accreditation through the ABS and everything. I'm kind of interested to know what got you down that path.
SPEAKER_01I had actually, after I got out of the military, um I made two knives with a stone grinder. I had a stone grinder, I had a drill press, and some files and a vise. And I set it up on the back picnic table uh at my girlfriend's house and made a couple of knives. And I went to the City Coliseum in Austin, and Ed Thiesson was there with Texas Knife Makers, and I had two cardboard wheels with grid on them underneath my arm. And he he asked me, He said, What are you doing with that? And I said, I'm gonna sharpen knives with him. And he had saw that I had a couple of knife sheets uh with me, and and he said, Man, let me see what you got. So I showed him my knives, and um he goes, You don't you don't want to use those cardboard wheels on that? And I said, I I I don't have any money, you know, to buy a grinder. And uh he said, John, I I've got one. He said, You're gonna have to drive to Houston to pick it up, but I want $50 for it. And it was a two by 48 belt sander with a felt wheel on the back. And he said, I can sell it to anybody, but he said, looking at what you're doing, I think you're gonna go someplace with this. You've really got you know an eye for it, and and uh you can tell that you're uh really passionate about it. So I drove to Houston to pick it up and uh started kind of plinking in the garage. Uh I set up a plywood table. I had two pieces of plywood that I had made into a table, and I had a drill press on there, I had the the grinder on there, my vise on there, and I kind of went around in a circle around that that big picnic table technically and uh started getting work done. And I was doing some kitten eyes at the time also, uh first kind of got me started, and and it was a good way for me to actually make some quick money. Um, I'd buy the kitten knife, put a handle on it, and I'd bring it up to the archery store, and the owner um would put it out for me, and I'd make, you know, 50 bucks on them or whatever it was at the time. And then what I ended up doing was just rolling it into more equipment and and stuff like that. And my twin brother and I were actually going back down to Texas Knife Makers to pick up handle material one time and and Ed had asked, You guys go into that hammering this weekend? And we went, What's a hammering? And it's well, other knife makers get around and they you know teach you about knife making. And we I had no idea there was even such a thing. And it was my birthday weekend and we went to Johnny Stout's and Harvey Dean's uh hammering, and I actually watched Harvey Forge a Blade. And I said, That's it. I'm I'm in, you know, and it started there, and that's where I want to go. Because I had kind of sto I've been stock removal for a while. And just watching Harvey Forge one, I said, That's that's where it began at. You know, so I started that. And it was fairly it was a great weekend because Bill Rupert was making a pocket knife and and they said, Y'all put your name in a hat and we'll draw for it. And my name came up on a Bill Rupert pocket knife. Roger Green was doing a dagger, and they said, Y'all put your name in a hat and we'll draw for it. And my name came up on a Roger Green dagger. So that they kind of nicknamed me Lucky Lucky. And then uh I built a shop uh at my first house in Austin, a small little 12 by 14 kind of shop, and was playing around with it, and then I got on with the Austin Fire Department, and we moved out to burn it, and I said, you know, if I'm gonna do this right, uh or if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this right. And I built a 30 by 40 shop, and uh and in reality it's way too small now. Um it's uh over time you you accumulate a lot of things and it's full.
SPEAKER_00So Yeah, it's pretty cool. Um is do you think that that Harvey Dean's um uh like knife aesthetic and design has influenced you a lot? I mean I notice I I was trying to like uh put like put a finger on kind of what your uh knife style kind of evokes to me. And I I'd say that it in a lot of ways you have a uh like you you have a lot of traditional um aesthetic, right? But then I also see like in in some of your combat knives and things like that, you do something that is still in the vein of traditional, but it is is very much your own um your own application and and technique and everything. Where do you think that the the majority of your um influence comes from if you um if you think about it?
SPEAKER_01I think a lot of it, um, you know, of course, you know, you aspire, uh you you see some of these guys that are just phenomenal at what they do. And you know, you you aspire to do what they're doing. But I I I've had people come up to me and tell me, you know, the thing is, John, what what we see in your work is it's kind of in a way totally different than anybody else's. And I think uh a lot of that was I didn't have anybody to mentor me or um, you know, I just looked at knives and magazines and then said, hey, I like that. Let's draw this and let's do that to it, and let's change this and let's do that. And I'd say that, you know, like I said, after watching Harvey, um, you know, Harvey's kind of the same style that I like as a big boo knife. Um, you mentioned, you know, heroes in this game uh would be Larry Fagan, uh, Joseph Selasky, you know, Ron Newton, um Harvey Dean. And I always looked at those guys when I first started making knives and just said, you know, one day I want to be as good as those guys. You know, and you have to just get outside your comfort zone. You have to push the envelope and you have to you have to just in a way destroy things because you're not gonna get it right. I mean, you're gonna, you know, you're everything's going fine and day and the next thing you know, it blows up in your face. You know, some people get extremely pissed off about it, and and when I first started, I did too. And now I just look at it as, hey, it's it's a learning experience. I learned I'm I'm not gonna do that again. You know, or wow, that wasn't that bad. You know, but you have to get out of your comfort zone. You have to push yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I'm I have to say, like uh one thing I really I really like about um some of your knives is the uh execution in your f uh uh in your in your flu fluted handles. So your quillions are amazing and your fluted handles are, and um that's something that I really admire. But um uh all of the engraving that that's done on your knives, that's that's 100% you as well, correct?
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm sole authorship on all of it. I um I don't really enjoy the leather work that much. Uh Paul Long had told me uh about 10 years ago, maybe well, it was longer than that, um probably 20 years ago. Um he said, John, you make a really nice knife, but your your sheaves are hammered dog crap. And he said, Come by the shop and you know, I'll teach you how to do sheaths. And Paul actually lives about a hundred miles from me, and it took me another 10 years to actually get over there. I went out to cut up a tusk with Weldon Whitley one time, and on the way home I stopped in and saw Paul and kind of learned from him. I'd been over to his shop maybe two or three times after that, and he showed me how he does shefs, and then uh you know, I've kind of taken his influence and and done some of my own styles of uh the sheaths, but the the engraving is the same thing, it's sole authorship. Um I want to be able to do it all, you know, and that's I I kind of enjoy doing it all. Like I said, I don't care for the leather work that much. Um but you have to do it. I mean, if you're if you're putting out an extremely high-end uh custom-made knife, then you need a really high-end custom-made sheath with it. I mean, it's you know, if you got a really nice knife and you got a hammered dog crap sheath, people are gonna lock from it. You know, or they'll buy it and then send it off to another sheath maker. You know, and I didn't want uh my knives actually leaving the shop, uh you know, sending them off in the mail. You know, they're either getting stolen, lost, damaged. Uh there's uh a a pretty good chance on that. And it's the same with the engraving. Um you know, you're just taking a chance and you might send it to the engraver, your idea and his idea might be totally different. And the next thing you know, you get it back and you're just going, ugh, I don't like this at all. You know, and the next thing you know, you're seeing it off, you know, a couple thousand dollars worth of engraving. You know, so I I I do it all.
unknownYou know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that totally makes sense. I uh somebody once told me that um a a knife in sheath is like a pantsuit. It's like you can't have one without the other and they don't look classy by themselves. Um so I I've gotten better at sheath making over the years, but I'm still uh I don't like it either. It's mostly because there I there's certain deficiencies that I have in it, and I've never just really sat there and tried to push myself to be an excellent leathercrafter. Um at the same time I'm trying to make um you know, push myself with knives. And I I think that uh I need to work on that. It's always something that I've intended to do, but just haven't ever really gotten around to being a really good leather maker.
SPEAKER_01I think my my issue with it probably is you know, I don't do it as much as as Paul does. Um, it might take me a couple of months to make a really high-end piece. And then, you know, I'll make another piece, you know. So I've got six to eight months in between leather working, you know, so that now I'm coming back at it, and you know, you're you're forgetting the simple things that you go, man, I why did I do that? So it takes you twice as long because you know you're you're going back and retracing steps that you didn't need it to to take, you know, if you do it all the time.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I I mean it makes sense to me. Um uh tell me a little bit about inner frames and and your uh folding knives. Like what what got you um into your specific style of uh of folding knives? And I'm also interested to talk to you a little bit more about your uh technique for like Mother of Pearl when you're doing uh I I guess it's checking of sorts with the gold uh gold dots in them.
SPEAKER_01They actually they actually call that it's actually called PK. Um you know, where it's actually raised into a diamond form or a really nice triangle. Um and you can do it a couple of ways. You can do it without the gold or with the gold in it. Um I like the gold in the center of basically the diamond, it just really makes it pop a lot more. But most of all that stuff I do underneath the microscope. I mean, to to get it the way it needs to be and as perfect as it is. Um I do all the hand sanding underneath the microscope. I I put basically the center of the dot where the gold's gonna go is done under the microscope. So you need certain tools um to be able to do it. If you yeah uh if you're a better machinist than I am, you might be able to set it up on your mill and cut it with a mill. Uh I'm just not that great of a machinist. I'm more of a beat it together with my hands type guy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I mean the execution on it is uh amazing. It gives a it gives an artistic um uh element to a knife that's just uh be beyond beyond normal. It's uh very reminiscent of like, you know, uh the exhibition quality of Sheffield knives and whatnot. Um is is that is the Piquet like a because I don't think I've ever heard it called that before. I mean I don't I I've seen it, but I don't know a whole lot about the technique. Where did you learn that from?
SPEAKER_01Was that like an old guard style, or did you just see it or no, um I had seen it before and then just figured out how to do it. Um you know, no one taught me how to actually do it at all. I just said I I I I know what it looks like. All right, how am I gonna do it? And that's and that's with me being where I am, um I don't have a lot of other Mastersmiths around me at all, or other journeyman or other knife makers. So a lot of what I do is I I learn it on my own. And like I said, it's getting out of your comfort zone and just going, hey, I, you know, yep, that didn't work, you know, or you know, hey, that wasn't that bad. You know, but the the inner frames are basically how I do mine is just how Lake did his with a master. Uh I've got a panograph. Uh I probably don't use it as much as I should. A lot of these guys are better at the same thing with a panograph than I am. Um I do it I use the panograph on certain things, but um majority of my work is basically just like Lake did. It's old school.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I is it a a 3D panograph?
unknownI've got a Deckle.
SPEAKER_01I've got a Deccle uh GK21. So Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was uh uh Craig Brosman, I'm you know sure that you guys uh know each other. Uh he and I have been talking about panographs because he wants to do interframes too. Um and we've been talking a little bit about the difference between you know 2D and 3D and how to set them up and whatnot. I've always uh I've always liked uh the idea of a three-dimensional, uh, but I don't really have the room for it.
SPEAKER_01Well, like you said, in in reality, you really don't need it if you do it, you know, how Lake does. You know, I mean you don't need a panograph. You know, so and the problem with the stone is if you get into stone, um, it opens up a whole new ball of wax uh with the pantag because you need a way to keep that stone cold or cool, I mean. Um so you need a flushing system, you know, in water, and you need to be able to see what you're doing when you're cutting the stone. So I I do a totally different um like I said, it's it's basically how Lake did it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that makes uh sense to me. Um I think um man, I don't know. I I'm interested, you know, we were talking a little bit um uh before recording, like I mentioned about um you know pricing and uh and uh you know figuring out like your own personal aesthetic and uh and things like that. I'm interested, uh do you think do you think uh any any portion of like your military experience plays into your um your knife aesthetic, like how how you think about processes or things like that, or do you think that it goes like back further? On the way that you I don't know, like process things and and figure out how how to systematically approach um certain types of problems.
SPEAKER_01I think it's a little bit of both. You know, I'm I'm very good at you know jury rigging um and looking at a problem and trying how to solve that problem. And I tell people one of the greatest things I I really enjoy is making jigs. I like making jigs to basically make the knife. And I told everybody working in the fire department I actually worked 56 hours a week and then drove in an hour. Um, and an hour 24 hours later, I drove home. Um, and then sometimes I'd get off and I'd run warrants for the police department on the side. So I didn't have a lot of time to make knives. So I had to figure out a way to do things faster but get the same results that I wanted, and it was through jigs. So and it just the military, you know, and the military style knives, um you know, I tell people, you know, people call me and say, I want a military fighter. What would you recommend? And I recommend a stainless steel blade. I recommend a sandblasted or you know, bead blasted blade, I recommend a kydex case. One, you know, these guys in the military can't keep um you know that blade clean. They can't, you know, you're you're out in the weather the whole time, you're you know getting rained on. Um there's there's things that if you make that blade out of Damascus or whatever, that blade's gonna rust. Uh especially if you're in a special operations unit or anything like that. You know, the stainless steel blades, you don't have to worry about it. Uh the leather sheaths, you can't jump with a leather sheaf, so it has to be a codex case. You know, so when you know someone wants something from me, that's what I recommend. Hey, let's go with a stainless blade, let's go with a codex case, let's go with a linen Mike Carter handle because it's like almost like Kevlar, it's kind of bulletproof. You know, let's uh darken it up a little bit with sandblasting so it doesn't shine at night. You know, and then I want a knife that uh, you know, is extremely functionable, you know, in the military aspect. I mean, I want something that, you know, if if I gotta slide this in between somebody's ribs, that it's gonna do that. I don't want a round-nosed blunted, you know, thing. And and it's also you don't want them too big, you don't want them too small, and you damn sure don't want them too heavy. You know, the Marine Corps loves heavy. I mean, you you give the Marines something that you know they the heavier the better, but you know, if you're already kitted up and you're you know, your kit's a hundred something pounds, the last thing you want to do is strap on a two-pound knife. You know, so keep it keep it light, you know, keep it medium size, um and then stainless.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's all uh good advice. I uh um what do you what do you think like the the overall w uh weight limit should be on a on a fighting knife or a general utility knife in the military?
SPEAKER_01Uh you know, I I don't know, I'd be I'd be really guessing errant on that. I mean, I I couldn't tell you what you know my fighters weigh, I really don't. Um you know, it's the same thing when I tell people to just get a knife made. Everything has to flow. And it's you know, even the weight of that knife has to flow in a way. I mean, if it's too damn heavy, it's the last thing you want to be carrying. I mean, it's go skin an elk with a very uncomfortable knife in your hand. You know, it's it's gonna give you blisters, you're not gonna be it's not fun using it. And it's the same thing. If you're carrying, you know, a 17-pound saw or uh, you know, an M60 machine gun, the last thing you want to do is strap on a four-pound knife.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I used to uh I used to go hunting with a K-bar um just uh when I was like pig hunting and stuff, just to stick something if I had to. But I found that it was like it was pretty long and the sheath is big, and it's not super heavy, but it's kind of um what's the word? It's it's a little bit uh um awkward to carry around all the time. And I just didn't like the the additional weight and size. Uh so I've always uh uh tended to stay with dainty or smaller knives when I'm hunting uh as a personal preference, but I don't I don't have any military experience in that sense. So it's always kind of you know, it's uh something that's uh interesting to me is um I've usually s uh tended to stay in my own lane uh when it comes to knife making, because if I'm making purpose-built knives for I don't know, like you know, horsework or you know, castration or um or military knives or things like that or duty knives in general for you know law enforcement, um there's a lot of things I just don't really know about it. And it just takes a lot of R ⁇ D and I, you know, the feedback loop and whatnot to do all that stuff is is kind of beyond uh sometimes what I I want to do. I mean, I know that might sound lazy, but um it I'm I'm a lot more affection uh effective with hunting knives because that's what I just done so much of.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think Austin, you know, your your everyday carry in the military, you know, you're gonna be cutting open your MRE with it. You're gonna be cutting 550 cord with it. I mean, you know, if God forbid that you ever need, you know, your long gun goes down and then your handgun goes down and you're in a knife situation, you're really screwed. Um you know, you want a knife that's functionable, that you know, you can cut sausage with it, you can cut 550 cord with it, you know, you you know, something that you're gonna be using every day. You know, this big uh you know, case-style Vietnam buoy. Um it's fine and dandy, but it's not something that you really want to carry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And uh I've also noticed that amongst military personnel, price seems to be a a factor. Like um I had uh I have a buddy who's uh done he's a ranger and did a bunch of you know ops stuff and contract work after he got out. And uh um he was saying the uh the uh tool of choice is a normal Gerber like a um like a leatherman uh style utility knife um combo. He said that's like 99% of what he used.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I mean you can I mean there's just so much more you Yeah, so much more you can do with that, you know. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Also they're much cheaper. I mean, I know he was saying, dude, the last thing I want to do is spend even four, four or five hundred dollars on a knife that I really like, and then I'm like uh doing doing something and I lose it. I guess he uh he was doing a detail and lost like a uh four or five hundred dollar knife he had, and he said he said it really it really pissed him off. So um he was almost swore off of uh uh custom work and stuff because uh in his mind it was like you know, if he was going to use it, he wanted to use it, but the price kind of dictated that he couldn't couldn't really do a lot of uh a lot of stuff with a really nice blade.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's you know, in reality, you know, the guys in the military probably don't, you know, they don't have a lot of money to begin with. Um, you know, and spending that kind of money on a knife, um, and then the possibility of, you know, when you're jumping out of a plane and you know the plane's going 120 miles an hour and you're jumping out of it, man, you're getting thrown to the wind, you know, and well, everything else is too, you know, so the chances of losing, you know, are higher in peaks um is is the probability's pretty good. You know.
SPEAKER_00So Yeah. Um talk to me a little bit about Damascus, because um out so apart from your knife aesthetic, like one thing I think that you just are exquisite at is your Damascus uh pattern development and everything. Um what I what was that process like to get from you know where you started to where you are? Because I mean I'm gonna say there's not there's not a lot of Damascus makers that I admire more than yours when it comes to your pattern development.
SPEAKER_01No, thank you. I mean, I I really don't, believe it or not, I really don't do a lot of different patterns. Uh I'm I'm leaning towards doing more mosaics, but it was the same thing. It was a time issue, what I had um, you know, in the fire department. So I got really good at Turkish twist. Um, that was probably kind of uh, I guess my call to fame um was was Turkish twist. And my wife said, you know, why do you do that pattern so much? And I said, well, one, I'm really good at it. And two, uh, a lot of people aren't really good at it. And it was the same thing. This the pro the problem with Turkish twist is you get a third of the pattern. You actually literally lose two-thirds. You take a third off either side, you get the third in the middle. So it's a very uh wasteful pattern, you know, for taking, you know, if you want a lot of steel, don't make Turkish twist. You know, but it's um I I got good at it, I guess, because I just did it so much. And you know, and I learned, hey, this works for me, you know, and building step dies on my hammer uh sped up a process, you know, it's another thing, I guess you could call them kiss blocks, uh kiss blocks under the power hammer or kiss box under your press. Um so it stops that billet from going any further. Um, really sped me up in that. I I would tell people though, and I was just like everybody else today. I remember talking to Harvey Dean one time, and I said, Man, I can't wait to you know get into Damascus. I can't wait to get into Damascus. And I remember Harvey Dean said, you know what, do yourself a favor, make a really good knife out of carbon steel first. And it is surprising um how many people want to jump in Damascus, but they don't know how to make a knife, you know, and you you've got some incredible Damascus being made, and then the guys, you know, it's it's the shoof deal and the knife deal again. I mean, you've got to be able to transition from one to the other, and and they can't, you know. So I I'd suggest to everyone, you know, start really concentrating on making a really good knife. I mean, the Journeyman Smith test, um, you know, it's pretty hard to ask because you can't hide anything in in that carbon steel. And sometimes in Damascus, when it's etched, you know, the acid's gonna eat a little bit of this and eat a little bit of that, and you might not have to bring it up um, you know, hand-sanded as high uh because the acid's gonna eat it. Well, when you're taking your journeyman test, that two-inch plunge line, man, you can see it plain as day. You know, so I'd suggest to everybody just make a great knife first and then get into your Damascus patterns.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, ear early on I had bought some uh like in in my knife making journey, I had bought some Alabama Damascus. And um uh I I did pretty well. I mean, you know, making the making the knife and then being able to sell it and everything. I think that there is a uh cultural allure with uh Damascus because of fortune fire and everything. But uh you know, like when I've gotten into stuff like uh like Devin Thomas Damascus or whatever, uh I'm just very leery to touch it right now because there's a certain portion like of me that when I know that somebody's put as much energy into making that thing as they have, I want to be able to match that and accentuate it in the you know the way that it deserves. And I I imagine like what how how long does a a text or sorry, uh uh a Turkish twist um pattern take to develop fully just for like one like I guess buoy um uh style knife?
SPEAKER_01Um you know, I don't know. Aaron, it's kind of like the guys that come up to the table and say, man, how how long does it take you to make this? And my response, man, I really don't know. I mean, I work on them until I'm done. Um you know, I might have three to four days in just building the billet to get it ready to get into buoy form. Um and then once it's welded up, then then the cleanup process begins, and that's another couple of days in itself just to get it um you know over to the surface grinder, you know, so I can bring it down to you know 300,000ths or 250 or whatever I'm doing with it. And what most people don't understand on that Turkish twist is if you know, so what what I do on when I'm pulling a Turkish out of the forge, I twist it from one end to the other all in one heat, and it'll be as tight or actually tighter than a piece of all thread, half inch by half inch all thread. And the reason I want to do that is because if you're cooler, um say you've got a spot that's not twisted up, and you know, now you've cooled down, and then you come over and you grab your torch. And I actually made a torch that had two heads on it, so I could blow heat from either side, um, and that helped. Um, but the problem is if when you go to to twist that again, and I use a twisting jig that I made, when you go to twist that, and if it starts corkscrewing on you, um, what it does is it throws that pattern to the outside. You know, and then you know, of course, you're pounding it flat with your wooden hammer and straightening it back up, but you've already corkscrewed it, so your pattern's already thrown over there. And it's the same with if your twists aren't even, if you know, if you've got a little slop here, and then this is nice and twisted tight there, and it's it's looser here, that type of deal. Um, your stars aren't gonna line up. I mean, everything you just you're gonna be nice and tight in this area, and then the next thing you know, it just you go, ugh, you know, that doesn't look right. And there's you know, a couple of things on the Turkish is you know, I call it a runoff Turkish, and I might be uh another name for it. Um, but it's where you just stack, and I I usually do a six-bar billet of Turkish. So I've got six individual right, left, right, left, right, left type stuff, and then you can weld it, and then once you've welded, then you stock removal from there. So I call that a runoff. And then the other Turkish is actually where the blade is gonna be forged, and your Turkish pattern flows from the Ricasso all the way to the tip, and then on the top, it flows from the tip all the way back, you know, the top of the spine all the way to where your guard's gonna be. And that's a lot harder to accomplish, you know, setting that up and the way you've you're cutting and reverse forging and and then restacking, and and so it it can be really complicated at times, and then the other times, like the runoff, the runoff is so much faster and easier. Um you've probably got maybe a less, you know, a day less in it um or even more, you know, because it just it's so much easier to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I uh I don't know. Like I uh well I so I submitted my application everything to the ABS, so I'm currently uh an apprentice, and eventually um another two years, unless I I'll take the uh I'll take- I'll try to take the introduction to bladesmithing uh class so that I can knock a year off. But um I'll have at least uh at least you know a year and a half, almost two years before I I go for journeyman Smith. Um I really wanted to do it because I want to see if I can uh be as precise as the requirements are for the for the inspection set and everything. I don't I think that right now, like uh like I'm at a place where I can do all of the heat treating and everything for the test knife, uh, but it's really the finish work that I'm I'm interested in and pushing myself for uh the specific aesthetic that the AP uh ABS is looking for. But when it comes to when it comes to uh the uh Damascus making and developing out pattern and then and and the time invested, man, that is an awful lot. Like in monosteel, it kind of is what it is. So you have time in it for sure, especially if you're doing stock removal. And you if you botch something, you know, you have that time in it. But I can't imagine like spending all like a week basically on a knife or on the Damascus billet and everything, and then for some reason uh you know, don't execute your your knife profiling and everything like that, or grinding correct, and then all that work plus the work of making the Damascus is a wash. It's a tough lesson.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's where you know, like I said, that that's where getting out of your comfort zone comes in. I mean, the the problem is if you if you never venture there, um, you know, you're never gonna go there. Yeah, I mean, so you've got to do it. I mean, it's you know, it's just part of the game um to play. And that's I I got my Master Smith 19 years ago, or coming up on 19 years. And the reason I was just like you, I just I wanted to see if I could do it. I wanted to push myself. And and after the hammering at Johnny Stout's, oh, it was probably 24, 25 years ago, I did the same thing. I went to the ABS school. Um, oh my instructor was Kevin Cashin, and I shaved a year off. And then I got my journeyman, and then within two years, I got my master's right after that. And it was the challenging part of it. It's just I wanted to push myself and and um, you know, it it's uh be the best you can be. You know, I mean, God's given me a talent um, you know, to use my hands and to see things and you know, really, you know, Jim Poard told me one time, he said, Man, one thing I know about Bachelor's Miths is they they got great eyes. And I'm like, man, you know, I'm blind now. Uh I got all these reading glasses around me or whatever. But he goes, Yeah, but you you you see things that other people don't. You know, and it's just recognizing you know that man something's off, you know, the flow's off, or you know, I'm uh I'm just a smidgen off here. And I I think a lot of it now, since I've retired from the fire department, I actually spend more time on the knives now than I ever did. It's because I want them perfect. And, you know, if I'm off, you know, a a a thousandths or two thousandths on a plunge line, I'm gonna fix it. Where before, you know, the show's coming up, I g I I gotta get these done. You know, I'm you know, like I said, working 56 hours a week, driving in and out, going to the police department, you know, and I'm working on my stuff and honeydews and blah blah blah and weed eating and I make a uh you know what that's good enough. Well, I don't I don't do that anymore. I mean I I make them um you know basically as good as I can. And you know, I I used to uh and I I need to get back at it. I I'd I'd make them for God and I'd sit there and say, you know what, God, I'm gonna make this one for you today. And if I did that, guess what? You're gonna do your best work. I mean, it's it's going to the it's going to the man, you know. So, you know, do the best work you physically can on it. And and Kurt Erickson actually told me that one time. He said, John, show them through your work. You know, show him through your work. And that's what I try to do is just, you know, stay humble at it and just show him through my work.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's that's uh that's I guess a great perspective because I you know there's um I think there's one element where we get closer to our Maker, and that's uh being able to create something um ourselves, is you know, to understand that uh there's a lot of uh there's a lot a lot of forgiveness in creation. Um but then I also think about uh um there there's some stories in the Bible like uh I I think uh you know in the Old Testament, like what made Abraham or David or other uh figures like that uh uh pleasant in God's eyes, right? And I've uh often wondered about that with myself and uh kind of like the the the character I try to develop. And I also think about that in knives too. Like what what's pleasing in my eyes with what I'm what I'm creating and how does it not just perform, but does it meet all those specifications and whatnot. And man, knives knives in s in so many ways, and I think it's one of the reasons why I feel so enriched by them is that as much as they are a physical thing, they're also a very philosophical thing that you can really delve into maybe some of those questions in belief and spirituality and and creation and whatnot too.
SPEAKER_01So I that that definitely makes sense to me well, you know, and I we had mentioned it earlier before you started recording, but you know, it took us a while to set this up. But you know I I tell everybody, you know, my my wife got on to me one time because I was always saying you know I might I make high-end knives and she goes you need to quit using that word. And I'm like what I uh what do I call them then? And I kind of determined you know what I you know someone asked me what do you do? Well I I do art in a knife form. And I tell everybody it's my Picasso, it's my painting, you know, and I'm lucky enough that I've got a little pension coming in from a fire department. So I make knives because I love making knives. I don't make knives to sell in a way I make knives because I love making knives and I'd be making knives for free and giving them to the grandkids and stuff like that if if it boiled down to it. But I think a lot of it um it helps if you've got the artistic ability to begin with. I mean I've flatnapped arrowheads I've made dogwood uh arrows I've uh made bow dark bows I've made long bows um you know I've painted I've drawn you know if if you've got that artistic ability you begin with it really helps you out um because you do recognize the flow and and that's the biggest thing in all of this it's it's flow. I mean if you could be the best engraver in the world but you know if you're engraving a piece and you've got one spot just isn't right, your eye goes right to it. I mean your eye recognizes just something isn't right. You know and uh everything has to flow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I'm uh I'm I'm interested uh to explore that more with you. I I want to talk a little bit about your brother and uh you know we talked a little bit before about you know kind of going over this but so uh Robert had had uh passed in 2005 but I kinda I want to if you can I want to talk a little bit about him and about your relationship as a a twin and everything and uh and kind of what happened to him a little bit and then I want to ask you some questions that are um in about your craft and then how it relates to uh to him and his life.
SPEAKER_01Well it was um you know grow up growing up as twins was was pretty incredible. I mean we're we're identical twins and we're seven minutes apart um you know so I grew up with my best friend you know and uh his death um really affected me pretty severely um you know it it set me in a pretty bad depression uh suicidal depression for a while uh lasted about about a year and a half um and then finally God one day just said John this isn't about you anymore you know it's about me and you know part of the Ranger Battalion um you know it's just you never quit. I mean just you know and I tell people, you know, from going through that um you know tomorrow gets better. And if tomorrow doesn't get better next week gets better and if next week doesn't get better next month gets better. You know and it's just it's having you know the never quitting um attitude. You know the guys that never quit I mean it's you know it's like going through SEAL training or whatever. You know that you you look at somebody and the guy you know went up and rang the bell or you know ranger battalion you know you're going for ranger school and the guy quits in ranger school and you never would have thought he would have done it. And it's it's just having that intestinal fortitude just to continue. And I learned just like the amputee to live without half of me you know um I do tell people one of the greatest things that ever happened to me was my brother dying because he brought me back to God. And it was God that got me through what I needed to get through. And um you know I couldn't have done it without him you know the cool thing about you know Bob being in the military um you know that that $50 knife grinder I bought uh I screwed my knife or screwed my neck up in the fire department and they kind of gave me a $5,000 little check saying sorry about that crap. And I went and bought my first beter and I sold my twin brother the grinder for $50. And Robert got into making knives um made knives about five years before he was killed and um I wanted to test him underneath me for his journeyman you know and then eventually you know we'd be twins you know in the ABS as master's mess together didn't happen um you know but he uh made knives for a while and I remember one time you know I didn't have a lot on my books at the time and you know Bob's going I got you know 60 or 70 you know people on the order right now well as everybody in the military carried a knife you know so he he you know some guys two three knives and you know so in a way I was jealous of the fact and then when I when I got to about 60 to 70 orders I'm like good God I don't want to do this and the problem with the taking of the orders is you're not allowed to really experiment or blossom or you know get out of your comfort zone. You're just making money you know and you you've got to fill that order and you know and a lot of these full-time knife makers man I uh my hat's off to you because I wouldn't want to do it. I mean it's a hard way to make a living I mean it really is I mean it's you know fortune fire kind of gave us you know helped us and hurt us at the same time I mean there's more knife makers in this now than you can shake a stick at but a lot of these guys think you're gonna get rich doing this and you're not I mean this is something that you've got to love doing and if you're one of the top tier you know makers up there you can make a good living doing this but it takes a long long time to get there and you have to build your own style and you have to get noticed you know but um going back to Bob um we both were in the military together in in 3rd 75th Ranger Battalion so it's pretty cool being in the battalion with my brother and he was in weapons battalion and I was in third platoon and we literally do like the double mint uh commercial and we flip-flop platoons all the time and Robert stayed in and went to 7th special forces group um was was seventh group for probably about five to six years and then got into Delta and was with Delta nine and a half years um he had 19 and a half years in the military was getting out at 20 he wanted to make nines full time and and um this last rotation they're like look you don't have to go you're getting down he said if you're going I'm going with you and part of the the wall in the units says um it's Isaiah 68 and it says who shall we send who shall go force and here I am Lord send me and that was always Robert I mean Robert Robert to give you a shirt off his back um and not expect anything in return you know and talking about you know the humility you know we had talked about that earlier the the guy that's really good the show boat or whatever they that that stuff can only get you so far. I mean it really does but the guys that are really really good at what they do most of them are pretty humble about it because it's just you know I back to humility deal I I tell everybody I can learn anything from anybody and if you if you're not willing to do that um then man you're missing out I mean there's there's the novice knife maker can can teach you something that you know you just go wow holy moly I didn't even think of that because he's just thinking of it in a different different way. I mean it's like me with the making of the jigs I'm thinking how am I going to approach this? How am I going to do this? How am I gonna fix this problem? And that's another sign of an uh a true master knife maker is the bigger the problem that he can fix, the better the knife maker he is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah when I um with with y'all being uh identical twins I I've heard um before that uh twins like I well identical twins specifically are kind kind of one mind uh not not like necessarily two individuals all you although you exist in that space but uh think a lot alike and sometimes have intuitions that uh almost verge on telepathy. Were you guys that that close?
SPEAKER_01Do you guys like feel like he was just like another side of you there was a there was a lot of yes and no in that answer I guess um you know our mannerisms are the same our you know speech patterns pretty much the same I mean we were identical I mean you you know especially the military I mean with everybody having high and tight um you couldn't tell one from the other um you know but he you know even as a twin you know he kind of did things differently than I did you know he approached things differently than I would and what I you know wishing he was alive um I'd love to see the knife maker that he would have become because Robert had that same artistic ability that I've got and you know he could draw he could paint um he could work with his hands and it was pretty cool seeing the knives that he built you know with the time that he had he actually had a lawnmower shed uh outside on post and he ran an electrical cord out you know sliding glass door and I'm sure if Bragg had found out about it they would have gone no we ain't doing this and they would have shut him down um but he made knives on a lawnmower shed and he'd have to pick up one piece of equipment set it on the bench you know take one off the bench put it underneath the bench um because he was limited on space but he made you know majority working knives I mean he made hunters and fighters and and and uh smaller knives and if he needed a piece of Damascus I'd usually make it for him and and send it up to him and stuff like that. When I was rambling I don't even know where I was going with that one.
SPEAKER_00So no I get it. I mean um are there are there a lot of examples of uh uh of your brother's work out there?
SPEAKER_01I mean do you do you have any in your collection or things like that or kind of what what has been the um what's been the aftermath I guess of his creation of knives uh that you've seen since his passing so I actually make um the Bob Horrigan fighter was actually my twin brother's design I didn't actually make that knife I had some guys flying over that night um that had asked me John would you continue making that knife so I started making my brother's design and it actually turned into probably well it is my top selling knife is my brother's design. I made another knife the McNulty so Robert and I are twins the man that died with my twin brother was also a twin his name was Mike McNulty so I named the other knife the McNulty and then I have a Model one um which was a fighter that I had originally made just more of a drop point style but um like I said Robert had his own his own designs and a lot of his designs he actually did copy off of mine and he he'd flat out well you know copying is the highest form of flattery and and of course being twins I didn't care at all you know and and in reality we all copy from everyone to a degree and Larry Fagan had told me one time he said John there's not a knife out there hadn't been made before you know just you know make it your style you know I I had called him one time I wanted to do a push dagger and and I said hey would you mind if I you know made it kind of like yours in a way and he said yeah just you know but do it your style you know and that's where you know you if you're taking Kempo or you know some different form of karate or taekwondo or whatever you're gonna learn you know from your master and that style and then eventually hopefully in the knife making world you develop your own because that's the one of the issues with the ABS um you can go by a a new guy's table and you just go well man you you learned under Jimmy Crow you you learned under Harvey Dean you learned under Steve Dunn you learned under because they a lot of times they're copying it pretty much verbatim and it's like guys you you can only do that for so long and then you have to develop your own and that's really hard to do is developing your own style you know and and um and you have to break away from the pack per se if you if you want to be one of those top tier makers. And I can't tell you how I did it. I mean I just well I guess I can't tell you how I did it. I I just made what I wanted to make you know and God's been good to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah well I mean kind of uh I I observationally when you look at a lot of uh like Journeyman Smith's knives like I mean you know it could be because whenever you pass I that's one thing about the ABS that's actually really interesting to me is because there is uh some pomp and circumstance whenever you go through that process, right? Um where you know you you pass your Journeyman Smith and there is uh there's a little bit of exaltation amongst the crowd that you have achieved something, right? But by and large, if you look at um one maker to the next maker in the in the Journeyman Smith presentation set, um with minor variation, a lot of the um the design aesthetics and finishing and things like that remain fairly similar. Do you think that that's by design uh based on the accreditation that uh everybody's kind of expected to follow that same kind like basic form factor for those uh for those tests you know I don't know I mean you have to have you know same thing I I think it's it's an earlier stage uh like you said you get your apprentice and then you get your journeyman and you're coming into this um you know and as a judge uh on the Mastersmith level you know Brian Tomerlin's wife said it best um she goes these guys want to be Mastersmiths they haven't been at Mastersmith level for you know 10 years 20 years whatever it is you know they want to be so a lot of times when you're judging you have to remember that that hey this guy isn't as good as as Mike Quisenberry or this guy isn't as good as Harvey Dean um you know so you have to kind of set yourself back and go all right you know what yeah there's there's some things I might have done differently on this but um you know is he there and you know I tell everybody I'll give you one um I might give you two but I can't give you three I mean if I look at it and go you know what man there's there's stuff all over it you know and it just and it's nothing personal.
SPEAKER_01I mean and that's where you know being a judge it sucks. I mean a lot of these guys are my friends and you've got to tell your friend you didn't you know you didn't you didn't make it and and um you know when you and in a way I guess the standards have kind of climbed um you know it's it's like I said this I think truly the standards have have came up. I mean and you you better bring your A gang to it.
SPEAKER_00No no and I I agree. I I think that um you know somebody who interests me um you know I I first I think became aware of him uh with the Alex Steele um uh YouTube channel and everything like that was uh Will uh stelter uh but um I've actually been incredibly impressed with the the way that he's taken um uh not only his ABS journey but what he's doing with smithing and whatnot in his own direction uh because he's he's uh you know arguably able to conform to the standards of uh you know Journeyman Smith and everything. But his presentation set is the like he he had the the expectation met on on fit and finish, but his aesthetic and everything is very clearly his own his own take on on what the the judgment requirements and everything are. And he um you know for for his involvement in what he was doing with YouTube and everything and then how he kind of went on a out on his own I really have been you know impressed in in the way that he's turned that into his own thing.
SPEAKER_01And that's where you know I we talked about that earlier. You know Will's Will's doing a great job because you know I mean he's a younger guy he knows how to use YouTube and Instagram and stuff like that. And you know I'm that guy that beats it together with a hammer you know and I can barely uh use my phone per se. You know and you know the the thing I would say about Will though uh what we had talked about earlier is you have to be passionate about what you're doing and and to to give 110% to everything you do on it. You know I had a guy came out one time he's a collector and he uh actually is a preacher and he said John you know I'll give you a quick story he said there was a a painter a very famous painter that had painted the Last Supper and he asked the novice painter he says what do you think of my painting and he says you don't love him and he says I I didn't ask you about my relationship with Christ or bring that up and the young novice says well if you loved him you'd have painted him better and he said you love what you're doing and you you can tell in your work you love what you're doing. And I think Will's got that same um the same thing going. I mean Will loves what he's doing. And you know the great thing about you know a kid with that kind of energy um you know a lot of people are taking him under his wing you know Hending Wilkinson's a friend of mine and you know he went over there spent time with him and he spent time with Niels and uh he wants to come here Steve Schwarzer you know so a lot of people have opened up doors for him and and helped him along the way but he's extremely passionate about what he's doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well and I've I've kind of wondered um it's it's it's hard not to in some ways with the interconnectedness of things try to compare yourself or draw comparisons with other you know makers or things. I I've always felt um like it's really difficult for me to get um a nod from other makers. And I'm I'm interested sometimes in uh in if that is because of a lack of passion or if it is uh that I'm maybe I'm just not focused on the right things. But interestingly enough when I s when I I kind of refocus my Myself to, I guess, thinking more about what am I doing in my knives for myself, and then started this podcast, I get a lot more industry acknowledgement for what I'm doing in a podcast versus what I was doing inside of, you know, making knives themselves, which is kind of weird how all that works out.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, one thing I would say, you know, and I kind of like to, I guess, give credit where credit is due. Johnny Stoute told me one time, he says, you want to be a better knife maker, surround yourself by better knife makers than you. And he's 100% right. I mean, it's it's kind of like these guys that are testing for master and they just go in and test. And it's like, man, did you show them to anybody? I mean, did you really show them to, you know, guys that are currently, you know, at Mastersmith level and doing some phenomenal work? You know, because you know, if you're just going in there blind and, you know, you and you can't see it yet, um, man, you're gonna hurt yourself. I mean, you you only get three times um, you know, to attempt for your mastersmith. So don't use them, uh, use them up fast, you know. But if you surround yourself by better knife makers than yourself, then you're gonna strive to become one. You know, and and Denzel Washington had said that. I mean, it just you know, as an actor or whatever, get get around better actors, you know, get around better people, you know, just in life in general. You know, if if if you're surrounded by people that love you and everything else, then you're gonna usually love people back, you know. So, um, you know, go up to these knife makers, you know, that you respect and say, hey, if you got a minute, would could I get you to look at my stuff? Um, and some of them, you know, don't do it in the middle of the show. I mean, it's kind of, you know, they're trying to, you know, this is their business. They're trying to make money, you know, living at this. Um, you know, but you know, maybe bring the guy out to eat, you know, or whatever. Hey, you know, can I treat you to dinner? Would you look at my stuff or whatever? And I'm not saying that you have to do that, but you know, give him, you know, the time to finish up the show. And, you know, if he's gracious enough uh to really look at it. Um, you know, but I'd suggest, you know, Tim Foster told me one time, you know, if if a guy comes up to me and says, you know, hey, what do you would you look in my eyes? And Tim, his reply was, What do you see wrong with it? And if the guy goes, Man, there's nothing wrong with it, you know, Tim would usually go, Well, it's yeah, I don't see anything wrong with it either. You know, and um, you know, that guy doesn't want to know the truth. You know, the guy comes up to you and says, Man, nitpick it to death. You know, and I mean, I mean nitpick it. You know, and the bad thing is, in a way, testing for that mastersmith. Um, man, your knives have to be nitpicked. I mean, it at the scrutiny level, I mean, they you got to go through them, you know, and and don't just go to one mastersmith, go to, you know, five or six or whatever. You know, you're gonna spend six months making these pieces, you know, spend, you know, a a week or two on the road driving to the guy's shop or whatever you have to do, because it's worth it in the end.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I mean, in a situation like that, do you ever feel um well I I think I know the answer to this uh because you know what I've I've gathered from being able to talk with you, uh you're a very, very humble guy. Um but do you ever feel like there's the maker that um uh uses your station or um um celebrity is probably the wrong word, but yeah, I mean there's like you you're uh a snife celebrity, right? Uh in in in a lot of ways. You have a lot of admiration in the community. Um do you ever feel like there's a point where um I don't I don't know. Like you're being you're being looked at for the nod not because a person is like authentically trying to like elevate their own game, but they're only trying to get um accolades by association?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think you know, going back to you know what we talked about in the military, that, you know, the guy that, you know, they just wonder, man, why is that guy so good? Why is that guy so you know, he's he's the guy that he's not beating his chest. He's not overgoing, look at me, look at me, look at me. Um you know, there is some of that in in the knife making atmosphere that we have right now. You know, and like I said, Forge and Fire helped us and Forge and Fire hurt us. Um, the the guy that's over there beating his chest, you know, but he, you know, he's known for a name, but his quality of work isn't there. I I don't know. Maybe in the long run, um, you know, years down the road, that guy's not gonna be there. The guy that's always made quality, that's always, always pushed the envelope, um, you know, 20 years, 30 years, that guy's gonna still be there. You know, one I've got a collector friend of mine that he said, John, the reason I collect from you is he's just because I see your stuff in a museum one day. And it was probably one of the highest uh accolades I could get because man, what what a phenomenal thing. You know, when I'm dead and gone and you know, 500 years from now, somebody sees a piece of mind that I made, you know, they go, wow, man, look at this. I mean, it's you know, kind of look at the Renaissance era and you know, and and and Picasso's and and the rec the other artists, you know, and to be in there with them um to be included in that, that's pretty cool. But the the guy that just got there because he was beating his chest and going, look at me, look at me, he's he's not gonna be remembered in that. I mean, you know, somebody's gonna buy his piece, you know, because of his name or whatever. And then 20 years later, you know, if the guy's still collecting, he might go, Yeah. You know, compared to this, man, that's nothing. You know, so I would just say do your best work you can. I mean, period. And you know, in reality, if you're if you're doing this for money, you're doing it for the wrong thing.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Yeah, that I mean that that does make sense. I you know, I uh well I've known of you for a long time. Um you know, is that there's there's a short list of Mastersmiths in Texas in uh uh in proximity that um I would say are you know you you might be able to talk to, maybe, right? And uh and I I've always thought, you know, hey, it'd be really uh it'd be really great to um learn from you and everything. But uh there's been a uh a lot of apprehension, I think, to talk to you. Like uh I mean we over this course of uh doing the show and everything has kind of been my introduction to you officially, but you know, your reputation is like far um precedes the conversation and everything. And I wonder if sometimes if that's just me being uh too introspective and shy about you know asking and reaching out and whatnot. Um do you like how how do you feel about that? Do you think that like a like knife maker should just like go for it and be assertive in that process? Or um like kind of how do you how do you interpret that?
SPEAKER_01Um you know, same thing. I mean, the I think a lot of humility, uh humility goes a long way. I mean, we had talked about that earlier, um, you know, before we set this up. Uh we had dime lunches going to school. I walked to every school I ever went to. Um we didn't have much growing up, um, living on a farm and then moving to Texas, we still didn't have a lot. So everything I I acquired throughout my life, I actually earned on my own. And it was the same thing with the knife making. If I sold a knife, I rolled it into a piece of equipment. And then when I finally did know, hey, there's other knife makers out there. Um, you know, uh politely asking them to look at my work or whatever, and and looking at their work and striving to do what they were doing um was part of what's made me into the knife maker I am today, is just I I looked at somebody else's work and said, man, I want to do that. I want to be, you know, one of the best out there, you know, and be able to do it all, you know, and you know, there's only a couple of, you know, a handful of guys that can do it all. I mean, Ron Newton's one of them. I mean, I mean, the guy's a phenomenal knife maker. I mean, he can make a cut and shoot, he can make a slip joint, he can make you a big buoy, a sword, it doesn't matter. Um, but there's not a lot of guys that do that. There's a lot of you mostly what you do is you you stay comfortable. You know, if you uh make slip joints, you make slip joints, and that's where you stay at. You know, Bill Ruppel told me one time, he says, you're gonna make what you're known for. In a way, yes, if you're trying to make you know a living doing this, but I want to do it all. I I mean, I I do a lot of the, you know, the the slip joints or the automatics, um, the switch blades and stuff, because I like the challenge of it. I mean, building a switchblade, a flush button switchblade, uh, you know, I might have eight to ten days in making this piece just to get it to function. And it's like building a a rifle or a pistol. I mean, it's you know, the sear, the disconnector, all that, you know, if you're off of thousands, things don't work, you know. So it's it's the challenge of it all. I think I would say that's probably what's made me, you know, if I had one thing as a knife maker say, um it's the challenge of everything. You know, I want to be challenged by something. I want to be, you know, the best I can be um doing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, do you think is there a portion of of you that takes pride in the fact that you've um uh cultivated kind of like your drive and your the way that you look at knives um in isolation of sorts? I mean, is um a better way, I guess, to ask that. Is like when you get down the road and like doing things your way, do you find after a while that that's something that you actually have some confidence in, that you'd rather do things your way than reaching out and asking everybody else to do things their way?
SPEAKER_01Um not really. I mean, if somebody's already, you know, done it and they're good at it and they're willing to share that information with you, um, why reinvent the wheel? You know, when um you know, if the guy doesn't mind, hey, you know, yeah, you can do that, you know. And um, but learning it on your own, you know, I I do some classes here, and what I wanted to do in teaching was I wanted basically accomplished knife makers that just wanted to go to the next level, uh, that they were gonna test for their mastersmith. Um, so all right, let's do a dagger class. Bring your dagger. Uh, I don't I don't really want to try and teach the guy that's never made a knife. That's just that isn't me because the problem with that is I know me, and I want you to go home with a really nice knife and you know what, guess what? I'm gonna be making your knife. And you know, because you don't know how. I don't want you to screw it up. And that's that's not fair to you, and it's not fair to me. I mean, I don't want to build your knife. I mean, I want you to be able to make the knife. I just want to take you and tweak you to get you closer to being able to pass that test, you know, and um just to make you a better knife maker. So that's why, you know, I I do some classes. Uh I I do probably one to two a year. That's all I do. Um But I would I guess I'm rambling on that because the question, you know, I don't really remember the question on that.
SPEAKER_00So Yeah, no, I mean it it makes sense. Um I mean the original question is like, you know, do you do you get headstrong about being in isolation and that's like you know, where where you drive your pride or whatever, and then you don't, you know, you just kind of like work in your own space or do you reach out? And I I mean you answer you answer that though, right? I mean Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I you know, there are times I I mean I I like doing things my way, you know, and and sometimes my way works out and sometimes it don't, you know, but it's like building your own hydraulic press. I mean, I built mine. Um, you know, I can fix it if it breaks down. You know, the problem with, you know, just buying that hydraulic press, if it goes out on you, you might have to try and figure out how to fix it. You know, and you might get lucky enough to be able to do it on your own. But if you can't, you know, so there are benefits of learning it on your own and doing it on your own versus someone else, you know, um, teaching you or showing you or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I mean, and uh there's a I was looking through your Instagram and and uh some of your leaf work, um, I guess you had consulted with Barry Lee Hands on the way that he does stuff. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_01Um I liked what Barry was doing. Um, and the same thing, I said I can do this. So I've I basically had figured out how Barry was doing it. Um, or I would say I I figured out how I was going to do it. Um, you know, and I really and you know, really admired uh Barry's uh leafwork out there. And you know, he gives classes on it. And at the time I just couldn't afford what Barry wanted for a class. Um, you know, so I just said, all right, how am I gonna do it? You know, so I figured out how to do it. You know, and it's it's that same thing. It just, you know, don't give up just because you don't know how to do it. Just keep doing it until you figure it out.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, all that makes sense. I um I I feel like I probably could ask you a lot more questions and things. I know that we've uh said that we probably try to keep this uh uh uh under under a three-hour uh uh interview and everything like that. But um You know I I think that I'm I'm interested like in in what you're going to be doing with uh some you know your slip joints uh you know focus, like doing some of those things. Um what is there anything about like you going down that mechanism more uh that interests you uh and and that's like any like a deciding factor for you choosing slip joints versus uh I guess any other uh mechanism like liner locks or whatever?
SPEAKER_01Um you know, I do some lockbacks, I do the automatics, and you know, the slip joints have just intrigued me. It's um you know, to me, it's more I guess if I had one time period, it'd be the Renaissance time period. I mean, that's kind of what I like doing. And the slip joints have been around for God knows how long, you know. So I'm I tell everybody I'm old school, I beat things together, I use my hands. I don't uh do a lot of computers, I don't, you know, computer illiterate. You know, so you're lucky I'm even on this talk show at all. Um but I wanted the challenge of the slip joints. And you know, so and also if you only make one thing, if all you ever make is push daggers, your your pyramid base is very narrow to sell to people. But if you do everything, if you can make slip joints, if you can make lockbacks, if you can make automatics, if you can make buoy knives, daggers, swords, tomahawks, fighters, then you've got a lot bigger base that's gonna buy from you. You know, so it's uh broadening those horizons, uh, open up a lot more doors for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well that makes sense. I uh I there was originally I had uh gotten into wanting to make slip joints uh because the market for uh fixed blades was pretty well saturated. I just I noticed that you know as economy started having problems, there was like a sales lull and everything. So I was like, uh I'm just gonna do something different. I've always carried uh um like a a slip joint of sorts or whatever. When I was growing up, there I uh had a uh two-trapper uh muskrat, and I always I always loved them. My grandfather, well both both uh grandfathers uh were World War II vets, and they they had a ton of slip joints just of different configurations. But I think that's one of the things that interests me about them is because there are so many different configurations and they all have their own technical challenges, whether you're doing, you know, you know I mean you could do one blade, obviously, um in the most simplistic sense. But then there's other things like, you know, I mean Lockback Whitlers or uh Stockman's or uh Congress's or or things like that. And I've it always boggles my mind with the the old Sheffield guys and everything, with how how they were able to do so much and to such a high uh uh standard of quality with so little. Simple tools um compared to our technological standards now. Um so there there's definitely a lot of meat on that bone if you uh if you you know push far enough into it. I just uh I don't know sometimes if I have the the patience to deal with some of the uh more complex configurations and slip joints.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's we're going back in the challenge of things. Um I I got lucky, you know, I went to Bill Ruppel's shop a couple of times. Uh he took me under his wing and you know, my problem with the slip joint deal back then was working full time. Um, you know, I wanted to make slip joints and you know, I kind of was going, you know what, uh I don't have time. You know, I'm working, doing this, and then the show's coming up, and I've gotta make stuff that sells, and I've got to, you know, make things I know how to make in a way. You know, so it hampered me by not sticking with it. And the same thing Tim Robinson's a good friend of mine, and and uh Tim's like, man, come on up, you know. So I went up and we're working our slip joint together. Um, you know, and he's helping me out there, you know, and it's you know, some of these guys, you know, if if you're willing to take a class from somebody and you know, yeah, the guy needs to make a living or whatever, he's gonna charge you for the class, but you learned 40 years of his knowledge. And you know, what's 40 years worth? I mean, it's man, that's that's pretty incredible. I mean, and in reality, you know, it's kind of like taking the ABS course. Uh the ABS course is a two-week course uh for intro class, you know, and it's it's not bad expense wise. Uh, but if you could do a one-on-one with a master's lift, you're gonna be better off, you know, because you're getting a one-on-one. It's gonna cost you a lot more. But you just you know, you just learn 40 years of knowledge from this guy. Uh you know, and having those guys that are willing to teach you, you know, go out of their way for you, uh you know, is pretty special.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Yeah, and uh like speaking of Tim, like Tim Tim and I are good friends. Um and uh I'm I'm always amazed uh uh uh at his mind and the way that he thinks of uh well of slip joints. It's not just mechanisms, though, it's like um ways to um proceduralize uh certain operations to make sure that like when you get down the road and you're ready to hammer that thing together, that everything aligns correctly. And uh uh he is he's been so like uh giving in knowledge to uh everybody on the way that he achieves uh certain things that I'm I'm just always impressed, not only in his work, but then uh his ethic in in uh teaching people and uh you know just being an open book about technique and stuff, because uh uh in the in the amount of time that I've made slip joints, uh a lot of his tutelage and mentorship and that has uh knocked years off of my uh learning curve and and and helped in the fit and finish side. And I I just don't know if I'd uh if I'd be able to think of the mechanism or think of like the fit and finish uh quite the same way. And it's made me a phenomenal, a phenomenally better fixed blade maker because of the type. tolerances that are required for you know the uh for slip joints themselves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah we had talked about that earlier. I I tell everybody if you you know if you can you know get into folding knives um your straight knives are gonna be so much better. I mean it just it's it's you know because your tolerances have to be there. I mean like I said if you're off a thousand stuff it ain't gonna work. You know and you know so it transitions and it just makes you a better knife maker. You know and um I'd say the biggest thing is just get out of your comfort zone. Do things that you're just not comfortable doing. You know and if if a guy um like Bill or or Tim is willing to take you under their wing um you know spend some money with them you know if that's what it's gonna take. Because you're gonna learn from them and the humility of of Tim and and Bill Ruppel and and a few other guys um you know that's that's where they are today, you know, is because of that. And you know I I call you know a lot of them my friends because you know they uh they go out either way for you when you do call them. You know and it's it's a vice versa deal. I mean if you know it's uh you scratch my back, you know, I'm more willing to probably scratch yours.
SPEAKER_00You know Yeah no I agree. Well on that note I'll let you go. I owe you a uh steak dinner uh at some point in time when we can meet up I didn't realize how close we were together uh comparative to the state of Texas but um you know I it's an honor to talk to you and to be able to pick your brain and I hope that um I I could have you on the show uh in the future because I I'd like to I'd like to really get into some of the technical sides of of Damascus and technique, uh some of those things that you do where maybe you can explain a little bit more in a process-driven manner, like kind of what what to look for. Because I I think that that's one disparity between um what we see like as makers in picture form and what it is in technique form. Like I'm mystified by Damascus. I just can't wrap my head around all the different um setup and geometric uh like um adjustments and things like that that need to happen. And all that's really fascinating to me. Um but I definitely think that there's some uh space in future conversations to talk more about uh well I mean uh just that just talking about like a PK or whatever and and it being done. I didn't even know that's what it was called. And I think stuff like that is very helpful to um makers because then they can search it out themselves, you know, if there's resources available to kind of understand a little bit more how that works in their own shop. And you're a wealth of knowledge for sure.
SPEAKER_01Well I I I'd tell you on that and uh Aaron there's there's better guys to talk to out there than me on that. You know like I said I'm very limited really in in my mosaics and and stuff I do. I don't dive around a lot um you know I I've got people that ask man you know how many you know art pieces do you do a year and you know I might do four to six um I might do four to eight you know but that's it. So you know I don't have a lot of time um to play around on the Damascus. So you know I make basically the pattern I want to make um and then start working on the knife. You know so I I I'd say um in reality uh man I can turn you on some guys that really know what they're doing you know and and you'd be better off uh I can teach you and talk to you about some of the patterns I do um but the broad base would probably be better going to someone else.
SPEAKER_00Spoken like somebody with true humility and I appreciate that for sure. But you know anytime you want to uh sit and talk and chat and uh you know delve into other sides of nice so you're you're welcome you get a free pass to come on the show anytime you'd like.
SPEAKER_01Well buddy I appreciate it thank you very much for having me on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah it's a it's an honor you have a a good one okay thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless
