The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Join me as I talk to other knifemakers, craftsmen and artisans in my journey to unpack the mysteries of knifemaking, and the culture by which it's built. This podcast features interviews with many of the men and women who have built, or are building the industry of knives and knife making as we know it today. Visit us at thegoodolbladespodcast.com!
Got feedback? Send it in here: https://forms.gle/HzviWYrFhkw8WiLR7
The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Episode 40 - From Farrier to Knife Famous - Kelly Vermeer Vella
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Kelly Vermeer Vella is a rare bird, because as high as she soars, she still seems to have two feet firmly planted on the ground. In every success, award, and other achievement I see her get, I am always rooting for her. Probably because she represents the underdog in her demeanor, and also embodies the superstar. This kind of enigma in knife culture is what drew me to her work, and wanting to have her as a guest on the show. Who doesn't want to get to know someone who seems to be untainted by fame, and as down to earth and humble as if she's the newcomer on a very established scene? Kelly deserves every eye on her, and more, and getting to see her creations is like watching a chef invent and allow the tasting of a new banger of a recipe. You'll enjoy her, we all do.
Follow Kelly on her social media, and join us fly on the walls watching her fame unfold. You can find her on Instagram and Facebook.
Welcome to the good old late. I am your host, Aaron LeBeer, and join me as we talk to other knife makers and crap about everything done. Kelly from Mayor Vella is hard to describe. As a first impression, you know she's lived a country life with her present and solder earth demeanor, vernacular, and her beautifully weathered and furrowed hands, which portray her vocation as a farrier. But Kelly's knives portray her inner self, her pursuit of perfection in the imperfect, her play on light, motion, materials, all to juxtapose utility with art. She's no stranger to getting to the reason for a question or the heart of a problem, and that's probably why I like her so much. She's no nonsense. Kellya spent a lifetime as a world-class farrier, which has taken her many places, but she's very quickly come into the knife scene and caused waves that have brought her to the front of the line in premier and functional knife art. She has a wide breadth of perspective that allows her to see the world that feeds into her knives in a way that takes others many years to grasp. She surrounds herself with good people who are also great craftsmen and circulates creative ideas that push the envelope. Not bad for country folk. Kelly, it's good to have you on the Good Old Place podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good morning.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's uh great to finally get to talk to you on the show. I am uh so I was on the inspection uh committee, as it were, team at the uh knifemakers guild, and you had can't come by and had your knives inspected. And I have to say, like I it was the first time that I had seen your knives in person, but it is not the first time I had seen your knives uh in the industry. And I there is a unique uh quality uh that your knives have, and I I thought it would be really great just to you know get to sit and talk with you, um, kind of pick apart your your journey to where you're at now and kind of uh talk through you being a uh a a knife star at this point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't I don't it still seems pretty crazy and unreal to me. I'm just I'm just happily building things. And then uh COVID happened, and not that it really affected me that much, but you know, there was nowhere to go, so I was just at home building things, shoeing horses and making knives. And then uh I went to Travis Wertz's hammering, and uh some guys came in. Yeah, I had my knives out on the table. Guys came in and they're like, a couple of collectors wanting to buy your knives, Kelly. I'm like, huh? They're like, where have you been? I'm like, I don't know, just been here. So uh kind of it happened fast.
SPEAKER_04Do you um uh so let's talk about that. Um, my understanding uh farrier for 30 plus years. Um, how long have you been making knives out of that chunk of time that you've been like a a farrier?
SPEAKER_00I think I I kind of lost my mind at the end of 2015 because uh yeah, I've been dabbling a little bit and trying to play with Damascus and uh yeah, I was just happy if it had lines in it. And uh I really didn't have any concept of you know knife design or uh you know what's correct, all that stuff. And uh so I was just making things, giving my friends, whatever. And uh we had Shane Carter out for a farrier clinic, and uh Shane's one of my superheroes, and and I I blame him for this knife building infection that I got. I caught it from Shane, but uh he came out for a farrier clinic, then he came to my shop after that, and there were a bunch of us, and we made hoof knives, and uh I just wanted to make Damascus, so he uh told me how to make dog how to make W's, so I was just happily building in Damascus while everybody else was building hoof knives and uh you know just getting a concept of how it works kind of went on from there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um would you s would you say then that is there a is there a specific driver for you uh in in knives? Is it is it Damascus? Like is that the vehicle that you've used to explore these different like artistic um expressions or kind of what uh um what about it makes you so fired up, as it were.
SPEAKER_00I I I do love the Damascus. I think it I think it's just amazing. And uh which you can you can pull off a cool pattern, whether it was planned or not. So you can co pull off a cool pattern and it just really pops. And then trying to complement the blade with all the other pieces, making a focal point, whatever. You know, not I'm not a fan of solid Damascus where you have a Damascus blade, Damascus guard, Damascus, everything and uh I think it's kind of like wearing all blue. So yeah, so I look like I'm pumping gas. So uh you know, I like the I can cut it up with with black, and then I'll do I I love hot blue things, and uh I just I think it looks nice if you take do like a matte black along with the shiny black, you know, kind of cut it up and I don't that that part's fun. And I've never been able to dress myself well, but I think I can dress up knives pretty nicely.
SPEAKER_04Well, um yeah, uh you've gotten quite good at at bluing like hot blueing uh knives too. Like so from your early work you were doing pretty good, but you have it to uh a a different level now. Uh do you think that that's just repetition, or do you learn fast and and fail fail fast uh in in trying different things out?
SPEAKER_00It it's more persistence than anything else. If it doesn't work out, I'll strip it out and do it again, strip it down and do it again. And uh I found a better product than what I was working with. I was using uh the brownell stuff, and it is a little finicky. And so now I use uh ultra black 400 from EPI, and uh it it's almost brainless. Um you've got maybe a 50 degree window that that you give where your temperature needs to be, and the longer you leave it in, the blacker it gets. So I really like that stuff.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, I I always love uh uh tips like that because um well I I'm an apprentice right now uh in the ABS, and so at some point after I hopefully take the introduction of Bladesmithing class to knock a year off and two years I'll uh put go in for JS. Um and it's mostly just uh me testing out my ability to work within the constraints of the ABS, more so than uh like you know, some people try to get into the ABS because they think it's gonna sell more knives or whatever, but I do there's a portion of me that really like I I admire uh uh some of the mastersmiths out there an awful lot, and I use that as a reference point for um where I kind of want to take aspects of my own knives. And so the ABS has always seemed attractive to me because it would be uh uh an honor to be a master smith along with these other guys and and gals. Yeah. Exactly. And so um my understanding is that you're uh you're not too far away from uh retaking your MS test, right?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Right. Uh I'll be taking it in June at the Blade Show. And uh my set's done. Uh my performance knife is sitting in the shop, it's pretty much done. I just need to etch it, sharpen it. Um so anyway, reading the rules this time, so I get it right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, that's it's uh it is one of those obscure rules. So uh my understanding is that you tested, but the tang bent, um, and that was a disqualifier, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, I knew it was gonna bend because it had to bend. You know, and I and I thought I had to have a real guard. And so if I had just, you know, lopped the lugs off my guard, because I I could still pull it apart, put it back together, and uh just lopped the lugs off my guard so the pipe went over the Picasso, it wouldn't have been an issue. And I just spent 13 hours in the truck driving Solvang for a show and back. In any point during those 13 hours, I could have looked up the rules and read them for five minutes and then I would have known. But since I wasn't couldn't be bothered to do that, I failed.
SPEAKER_04So But you failed in a very like a spectacular, I'm not gonna say spectacular because it was it was like f it was super foolish, but uh it was spectacular in the sense that um the I I think the amount of uh verbalizing that you've done over the over that oversight, it's it's just an oversight, it really is. Uh yeah. You know, every in every other way the knife would have passed, right? Um and it's an oversight and it does two things. One, it shows that you know mistakes do happen, and it also shows that uh rules, although arbitrary are still rules, and you have to you have you have to kind of submit to them at times. It's like exactly it's like uh it's like uh spitting on the sidewalk in some jurisdictions. Like sometimes it'll put you in jail and other times it won't. And so you know and and well and uh you know I think that so you had tested with Horgan um uh for that blade, right?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04And I think that he even mentioned something too. Uh I was seeing that kind of unfold on social. And I have to say, like uh holistically, I I think that it made me think more about uh making sure that I'm um uh dotting my I's and crossing my T's and and thinking about constraints and that these are things the absolute like these are the absolutes. Um and and doing that for myself, not not not not because somebody else is telling me to do it, but maybe that there is some importance in being able to like list out the things that I do and do not want to accomplish with a certain piece or whatever, and then and then uh if if that is n doesn't conform to that to evaluate it and see like is is this is this good enough met or is it not? And I I I appreciate y'all being like candid and uh and vocal about it because I just don't think that there's a lot of that like failures and and mistakes are so so often veiled inside of knives and in art, but those are the things that actually breed us creating and figuring out things, don't you think?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, no, uh you can't be afraid to fail because you're gonna. And I think I've always been pretty good about that. Yeah, okay, let's do it again. Let's do it again. And that's even uh I used to do farrier competition, and I'd be out in the shop every morning and every night building horseshoes and building horseshoes, and they'd just be in a practice pile. I had one for the pile, and every once in a while, you know, I moved the pile so that the ones from a year ago would be on the top, the new ones would be on the bottom. Like, oh god, I suck. But uh, it's all part of the learning process is not being afraid to fail and not being afraid, not being afraid to look stupid. Nobody wants to look stupid. I don't like looking stupid, but uh you know, you're just gonna be persistent because you're not gonna learn it until you you only know what you know, and uh don't be afraid to ask questions from other people and don't be afraid to humble yourself, and and I think sometimes that's a little hard to go to somebody and say, I don't know, can you help me? And uh I've I've been trying to be very good about that and say, I'm a dummy, can you help me, please? And uh you know, everybody's really open. And uh I try to be if anybody asks me for help, I still amazed that they want my help, but they ask me for help, I just try to stay right on it and uh be as helpful as I can. The only thing so I hate people who are like an asshole, you know, who who will uh ask you a question and then you go through 20 minutes of explaining why, you know, of answering their question, and then they're like, Well, I'm not gonna do that. You know, if somebody if I ask somebody a question, they tell me what to do, I'm gonna do it. Even if it's wrong, if it doesn't work out, I'm still gonna do it. Because I just hate people to waste your time and I hate wasting somebody else's time because they can get something else besides answering my question. And uh I mean like John Horgan and and Bill Burke and Verony Clarent and a whole pass of the others, uh Rick Dunkerly. I mean, these guys have spent a lot of time, you know, on Messenger, on the phone or whatever, helping me along. Yeah, uh I I think it's just a slap in the face not to do the best you can.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, and I think uh it's it's difficult sometimes because I I think uh asking questions and knowing knowing knowing how to ask them is an important component of life, not just the knives. Like, yeah, I I can't tell you how many times people have asked me something and they say like their response is oh I know, I know, I know. I was like, well, why are you asking me in the first place? If you know everything, then don't ask the question. But it's also that some some people like when you're cr like critiquing a knife or whatever, like you might pick apart things and say, hey, like this could have been done differently or whatever, and people get a little bit um upset over that. And I'm like, Well, I think it's important, uh, don't ask a question that you're not prepared for the potential answers to. You know, there's there's people that come up and they're like, you know, uh like you know, I like you as a person, but I don't really like your knives, or um, you know, something about your design aesthetic just is not me. And it's okay, it's okay to not like what I what I make, but um, you know, I think we have uh uh a mutual respect that can be given to each other for like a professional courtesy at least. And uh you know you have to be prepared. Uh you have to be prepared to to uh for the answer. And I I mean I don't know, that seems like an adult, like true to life type of uh thing, but it seems like in in knives, especially I've seen it coalesce into a lot of people getting really hurt over um a question that they asked that they just weren't prepared for the answer on, you know.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, my dogs are racing around being idiots because apparently they want to be on here too. I think they just slowed down. They're very distracting.
SPEAKER_04They're just tearing around now for another time. But yeah, um well, and uh so you've really had a lot of like really great teachers and and mentors and things through your um through your uh rise in this um um in in in the knives that you're creating. I mean they're not just they're not just fine knives like fine craftsmanship, but they're just um they capture uh an element of uh form and function to me that's very evocative. And uh I'm I'm interested in do you collect makers like do like your mentors and things, are they are they a part of your um like the arrows in your quiver uh specifically like because of the techniques and stuff like that that they're good at? Or how how exactly do you uh come to a place where um you like your mentors tours are some of the best in the entire world for what it is that they do?
SPEAKER_00Well it it's I mean obviously I see something in their knives, just their their style or whatever that super impresses me. And uh, you know, I want a little piece of that. And it's like I don't think it's wrong in the beginning to plagiariz, I guess plagiarize a little bit. I mean, because you don't know, you're just like you're like, I want to make that, so you you know, I'm gonna try to do that to the best of my ability, and then it'll spin off to your own thing pretty quickly, I think. But uh yeah, I've I've tried to seek out people who I I really respect and uh whose work really speaks to me, and I'm like, that's just amazing. I want to do that. I don't know how they did that, but I want to do that, and uh I think it's awesome, it just keeps pushing you to be better. There's some smart person once said, if you're the only if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. So I've tried to surround myself, even in the horseshoe world, I've tried to surround myself with people who are better than me. And uh the same in the knife maker world.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that's fair. Um I want to talk a little bit about um what got you into uh being a farrier. Um I you know, I've I grew up uh around livestock and farming and stuff in rural Pennsylvania. And so they're like farriers were kind of like always sitting on the periphery, but I never was uh I never I guess got the idea that I wanted to uh be a farrier, right? But uh, you know, moving down to Texas and the horse culture down here and the fact that I live not that far from Texas farrier supply, I guess I've I've gained a deeper appreciation for the just how big the farrier world is. Like what got you into that 30 plus years ago?
SPEAKER_0035, 35 last month.
SPEAKER_04Um 35.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I worked on a ranch and waited until the last minute to call somebody to to get a horse shod. And then uh I was having a hard time finding someone, you know, cheap enough. And uh one guy had a broken toe or something, and uh I'm like, come on, it's just one horse, Mr. Broken Toe. If you don't do it, I'll do it. He's like fine. I'm like, fine. So I'm at a poor horse, his name is Burrito, and uh he's dead now, but he'd be dead by now anyway. And uh luckily there were a couple guys shooing out at the barn, they kind of helped me along a little bit, and then uh I just started shooing the horses at the at the ranch, it was just poorly. I mean, it was horrible. And uh one of the farriers I started going with him, and then he told me about another farrier who's probably who's the best one in the area, and uh kind of really changed the whole scene for us because uh we're all like one big happy family. I mean, we all hang out, we work together. If you stop by you see somebody shoeing horses, you start shooing horses with them, you know, oh this will shoot some horses, this is fun, which is kind of weird. But um that guy, his name was Emil Carey, and uh he worked at a big vet hospital we have here and uh he got me into or he let me show up at the shop and pull shoes and finish feet and do whatever and uh introduced me to farrier competitions and uh basically it's it's like art with horseshoes. So you're making horseshoe art, but it also has to be functional, functional horseshoe art. And uh so through these competitions I met a whole bunch of talented people and uh really helped me along my journey. But uh I I was nuts over that for a few years. Traveled all over the world, um went to France a couple times, went to Canada a bunch, went to Australia, and uh just for failure competitions and all over the US and uh it was really cultivated my my love for building things. I love I love making things, I always have. Yeah, I like working on trucks, which is silly. Um but I can keep them going. My truck's a 94, so snowball right here. Still rolling like a tractor. Uh and I just love to make things. Uh I like horses, so it's it's nice to just trimming the feet and and then fitting what you've made and fitting it well. Uh I don't know, it's really gratifying for me. So I'm like, damn, that's nice. And I love shooting horses because there's an instant gratification there. You know, you've done it an hour and you've got a finished product. You're like, ooh, yeah, you the chick, or I could have done better, or whatever. And uh, you know, knives, it's a it's the epic project. You know, it takes a bit. So it's nice to Go, I shoe horses about three or four days a week. And uh, you know, I have that instant gratification of actually being able to complete something. And then I can go home in the sh shop and tweak out on a knife for however long it takes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that makes sense. You know, uh, that's something that I've I've talked about a f uh a few times in the past, but it's just um that there there is some monotony um in knives. And and there's also sometimes when you get into a funk when you can't you can't wrap your head around like that next operation that you have to do, especially when you're pushing things. And so it's uh it's always good to be able to step back and do something else. If it's in knives, it's a if it's something that makes you uh feel accomplished for that moment. Those are like those little uh baby steps that you take to those like big gallops that you uh you have to perform in certain things. And um, it's interesting that um the the normal vocation of of being a farrier is that thing for you. Because, you know, for for me, I don't look at like I work in cybersecurity and I don't look at like my day job as being the thing to break up the monotony of what I do in the shop. I look at things that like microprocesses in the shop that kind of take me away from psyching myself out over something.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Um but I I think it's great that you still get to um um ply those the craft of of of smithing, right? Uh and and you know, ins inside of what you're doing as a uh normal vocation and everything. So that seems uh fun. Um how is it primarily with with uh oh I'm gonna I'm gonna take a step here uh back. It it seemed like when I was growing up and everything that there was like there were some unforgivable things that happened to horses that if they uh if they if those things happened, you basically had to put it down. It's like lame horse, you just there's nothing you could do about it. How has that um like is that true? And as a as a farrier, is there do you see like more regenerative medicine or things for uh for horses that help them to overcome lameness? Uh like beyond like okay, well you're useless, we gotta put you down now.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, you bet. And then uh I mean shoot the hospital I work at, I end up you know working at the same hospital. And uh but uh we've got like cat scan cat scans and MRIs and and uh you can do all sorts of neat stuff for horses. I mean I I feel like I'd be better taking care of that hospital than if I went to to a people hospital. Um I don't know, I lost one yesterday, and that was that was kind of and that was uh laminitis, the horse founder. So basically the bone in their foot was ready to go through the bottom, the main bone in the foot was just and the horse was in a lot of pain. And uh even if we tried to push through it and save him, it was gonna be a long, hard road of the horse going through a lot of pain. So you have to think about the the well-being of the end, too. But yeah, it's tough. I hate losing one. Um but for the most part, I feel I can I can help a lot. Uh I'm an old horse shower, so I work on a lot of old horses, and uh it's funny because the older I get, the more sympathetic I am to their aches and pains, too. I'm like, all right, guys, like hold up and get under him, stay under the center of the horse. He's not that stretchy anymore. Stuff like that. Um but yeah, I mean veterinary medicine and uh just the even the hoof care products that come out now, uh you know, really can do a lot.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, and uh I mean I've seen I've seen some of the uh I guess rubber and polymer shoes and things like that, like all these compounds that you use to like fill voids and do other stuff like that around the shoe that to me uh uh seems like magic, like a process basically prosthetics of sorts to help aid in the uh shoeing process. Um so what would you say the percentages of uh of horses that you can't save or can't do anything for now versus maybe 35 years ago?
SPEAKER_00Um I can answer that. I'll just say 12.
SPEAKER_03I'm pulling one out of there with 12%.
SPEAKER_00Uh and uh yeah, the the the rubber shoes, I I would say they're not my favorite in the world, but they have their place. Yeah, every everything's got their place. I'm I'm a fan of good ol' American steel or Chinese, wherever it comes from. But uh yeah, I'm I'm a fan of steel. Stick those plastic things in the forge and they melt every time. But uh they they do have their place.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um well I like your uh percentage 12, but um well I I the I I guess maybe it's like to to me, I there's there's a perception of like uh horse care and veterinary medicine and things like that that is uh largely ignorant. Um I um oddly enough, um I I had always wanted to be a veterinarian, like from the time I was like a really small kid. Uh-huh. Yeah. And um because of the education that I had when I was younger, I was homeschooled and everything, I always felt like super stupid. Like I was like, there's no way that this like hillbilly from like the mountains in Pennsylvania is going to be smart enough to get into veterinary school. And uh and so I got like I got out on my own, I was working in IT and everything like that. And there was some point in time where I was like, you know what? Like I the only person who's like really telling me I'm stupid is me. And I gotta I gotta explore that for myself. So, you know, I put myself into community college and I put myself into university, and I I got to the point where I was on track to take all of my core classes that are required in order to get uh pre-met uh pre-med pre-vet. And I was I was doing well. And then I got offered a job in IT that I was like, man, like I had to look at the uh the uh financial curve on veterinary school. And I was like, I could I could do another like year and a half of this, um, I can get my uh uh biology degree and I could probably get into veterinary school, but I would be so far in debt, and this job puts me on a track where within a very short period of time I'm like uh I don't have to worry about anything. And uh so I chose that. And I I I I guess I I got to a place where I ticked off that thing where it's like I can do this if I really wanted to. It was gonna be a lot of like hours and a lot of sacrifice and many years of um you know being in somebody else's practice and then having to start my own my own practice and whatnot. And so I just was like, eh, I don't I don't know if that is for me anymore. I guess I guess I guess I aged out of the uh dream of being a veterinarian. But um I've always really admired uh animal care, and there is some portion of me that wonders now if I'm if I am too sympathetic to do something like that, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh it is a noble profession, but I think you made the right choice. You'd still be paying off your student loans.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that was a that was a problem to me. Um because I I mean, I don't know. Uh you know, there were some some figures that uh were like in the $300 plus thousand dollar range for the education and everything. So the rest of my undergrad and then you know going to AM or whatever. And I was like, dude, I just can't I can't be in debt for half a million dollars without, you know, without knowing that this is actually something that um that is going to work out in the end. It's like, you know, maybe twenty years from now, um, I'll have everything done and have my own practice. But I'm still gonna be working like you know insane hours because you get all the the worst hours when you enter a practice.
SPEAKER_01And oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I never never occurred to me to actually try to get into the uh vocation of being a farrier, but man, I I do I respect the hell out of you guys.
SPEAKER_00That's the best job in the world. I just drive around, listen to music, talk to people, and build stuff all day long.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that's interesting. Um I I do you think that that's one of the reasons why you're you're kind of on this path that you are, because you're just like you know, solving problems all day long and making friends and being, you know, a person first and then an artist that this kind of like a stems from that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think so. Um yeah, I just I mean I love to create things. I think it's neat. It's like I did that. And even if like little doodads need to be built around the house or or my husband needs a new handle for his boat doors or something. I'm like, I got that. Give me 20 minutes, I'll be back. And I'll make something. But uh it it's pretty fun being able to fabricate things. No, I need to know learn more about machining. That's that's my well, it's not my next project. My next is engraving. But uh and do some engraving, some gold inlay, see where that takes me. But just a little more.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um what a so what are your plans for engraving? I mean, you know, that's that's one of the things that I man, there are so many just wonderful engravers out there. Um, but the thing that I've always thought about is like one, it is a little bit cost prohibitive, um, but the other is that you have to you have to wait.
SPEAKER_00You have to wait.
SPEAKER_04And yeah, and I think that's probably like my biggest thing. It's like, so I've thought about engraving, but uh I just don't have the room for engraving material, um, you know, microscope, all that stuff. Um what are your plans for trying to get into the engraving space? Are you just gonna do it yourself, or do you have specific classes or things like that that you're trying to focus on?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just got back from GRS a couple uh a couple weeks ago, and uh because Rick Dunkertley told me, and but Bill Rupel, like, you need to learn to engrave. That's Kelly, you need to do this. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do that. You guys tell me that I'm gonna do it. And enough smart people tell me I need to do something, I will do it. And so I went to engraving school. I really enjoyed it. I think I'm not too terrible at it yet. Um, so like this morning I'm setting up my bench, I got all my stuff from GRS, and then uh it's gotta be in a clean area, which isn't my shop. So we're putting in a little she shed outside here. I'm my little cute little office, my engraving stuff in it, and uh just make a point to go out. I think mornings are probably best. Go out in the morning and engrave for an hour or two, then go to work and then come home and build knives. Um but yeah, because I make this stuff with it with a big blank space in it. I'm like that, you know, like uh you know, a big a penny guard wouldn't be cool if there are like little flowers on my pennies or something, some gold inlay or or something. Uh I've used uh Alice Carter, she's got one of mine right now, and uh she does a beautiful job. So and I know Alice will help me out, and then uh Tyler Porter from Texas. Uh Tyler's handy, and uh we've done one project together, we'll probably do some more. Uh you know, so I don't know if I want to do all my own stuff, but but you know, it'd be nice just to be able to bling it up fast and and then you know, I I realize I I'm my own top priority, but I'm not always everybody else's top priority on getting things done. They got other things to do too. So I like you said the wait time would be nice just to go out to my little engraving shop and engrave my thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, or at least um uh well I'm the same way with like sheaths. Like I suck at leather, to be honest with you. Like I'm it's not my thing. Um I I think if I spent enough time at it, I'd probably be pretty good at it, but I just don't have the time um to do that separately. But um there are times when I'm like, hmm, I wonder if this idea would work or whatever, and I go and cut the stuff out and take my time or whatever, but I'm actually I'm actively trying to like figure out what it is that I like. And I've thought a lot about that in engraving. It's just like you know, there are certain concepts um that I want to be able to explore that I might not might not want to pay somebody else uh to explore with me. I just want to do it myself and figure out if it can be done. And so I think that engraving in a lot of ways allows you to play in that space where it's like you know, you have an idea and you're like, hmm, I have this canvas and I can do this thing myself, and you get it good enough at it, then you're the thing you're the person that the people know for the you know with that thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And I say that the sole authorship thing is is cool. I mean, it's you know, I made this whole thing, I like that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um are you so with with uh talk to me a little bit about uh the GRS uh uh process and everything, because I've uh I've seen pictures from different knife makers and things like that. Uh, kind of share a little portion of it, but um what is what does the class look like and um and what's the experience overall and like what you what you end up doing?
SPEAKER_00I I think it's set up for set up for 12 students, I think. And everybody's got their bench with all their engraving things. Uh they give you all sorts of stuff to start with. And uh we we had a master engraver, Lynn Zelke, and he was great. And uh basically it's it's kind of monkey see monkey do. And they set you know show you how to set up your equipment and how to make everything fit you and how to focus your scope and and how to sharpen your tool, your gravers and uh doing transfers and things like that. That was all right off the bat. But you're it was uh five-day class. It really wasn't very much money for a five-day class. Um and you're under the scope for I don't know, you can stay extra later for a couple of days, but you know, seven or eight hours a day, that's what you're doing is engraving. It's pretty awesome. And you know, stop and get like a little class and show us something and then back to cut. And uh what I thought was really cool is that a couple of the guys in the class were employees of GRS, they were new employees, and so people doing like designing things and doing more important things, they go through the classes too. So the guy that's selling you your equipment, he engraves. Um, the gal signing you up and whatever, she engraves, everybody does it. And it's it's a huge operation. I mean, they they build almost everything, I think, except for the scopes. But pretty much everything is built right there. I I swear they they must employ half Emporia, Kansas. But I was really impressed with the whole setup. And uh just the fact the person you're talking to is trying to sell you stuff is uh and he wasn't trying to sell me things that I didn't need. He's like, Oh, you don't need that, you don't need that. The last thing I had to convince him that I needed it. I'm like, oh no, John Horgan says this is his favorite toy, and I want that too. So um, but I I was really impressed with the school.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and what so far, what's your favorite um component of engraving? Do you like the uh the like the gold inlay component or like uh uh relief or kind of what where where are you leaning right now?
SPEAKER_00Uh so for right now I just know how to do you know scrolls and lines and and working on some shading and uh just basically there's a there's a bunch of little practice plates that you do and just you know learn how to cut and uh and making flare cuts which give life to to design you're making. Um so I got a long ways to go. I mean I'm like fresh out of school and haven't grade since I because I'm setting up my bench right now. But uh I am like I'm excited about it. I think I think uh I mean gold really sets things off. Obviously, everybody loves gold they have for forever. And uh in in filling in those blank spaces for me. So I think there's gonna be obviously a learning curve of trying to trying to tastefully fill in those spaces without overdoing it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, I man. The sky's the limit pretty much. Like if you can engrave, then you don't have to worry about the design constraints of like empty space, right? I mean you can you can you can design a knife around canvas area and then be able to fill that again with some other concept that you're working on. So man, to me it seems like it's it's really cool to be able to do that holistically because it it really does uh take some of the fetters off of uh of design principles and things because you can just say, well, like I do have this open space, but heck, I'm gonna I'm gonna design something specifically to put on there to make it um not blank. Um but you know, uh have you uh have you thought about like stone inlays and things like that yet as part of engraving, or is that something that you uh are really interested in getting into?
SPEAKER_00Of course. Um yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna learn some stuff about setting stones and uh doing some inlays. I usually make an annual pilgrimage to Texas in December. So uh I'm gonna go to to uh Jim Poor shop for three or four days and and uh then and John Horgan will come down there and then I'll go to John's shop for a few days after that. And we're gonna do like an inner frame be an auto. I think it's gonna be an auto. Uh you know, and learn how to set stone and and more machining. He's taught me a lot about machining, which is awesome, and a lot about everything else too. But but I'm I'm excited about that. Last year I did dagger class, and then uh this year we're gonna do the inner frame.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that'll be interesting. Um, so I was recently talking with uh Bob Bob uh Tizzarola and um and he he's like the the the godfather of uh tactical folders, right? And I I saw briefly that he uh on like a he has he's like a one of the the few makers that has a Wikipedia page, right? And uh it said on his Wikipedia page that he had spent time in South America uh jade carving. And so I talked to him more about jade carving and um it it really re-ignited uh a thought of mine of doing lapidary, like being able to carve stones and things like that as part of components for knives. Uh not not you know, not just the stone setting component, but being able to actually carve stuff and then be able to use that as a facet in knives too. But he does that, like he puts uh you know, jade, um like green jade and black jade and things like that into his knives and does all sorts of stuff. And I'm like, uh I don't know, man. There's too much. There's too much stuff to like distract me in knives. Uh I I don't know, maybe it's not a distraction. But I I thought uh about that in the sense that there are so many different stones out there, uh, you know, natural uh formations, uh Jasper and other things that you you learn the components of of carving stone and you can incorporate that into um aspects of knives too. And um if I get to space, you know, the uh the lapidary portion of things is a is a component I'm gonna add as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think that takes up a lot more room than engraving stuff.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, uh you know, there's uh there's a machine that you can buy that I guess it has a central drivetrain. Um and and then uh you have wheels that are impregnated with diamonds of different uh microns, right? And uh, you know, other than other than supplying the water uh to it, you have what, one, two, three, between four and uh between six and eight stones, stone wheels uh to be able to carve things plus your your initial cutter. And so yeah, about about I'm gonna say maybe a little bit more space than engraving, but it does kind of require its own dirty room of sorts because you have all this slurry and everything that's going everywhere.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, it's not going to my clean room, that's for darn sure.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, it's like you have to have a clean room for engraving and a dirty room for grinding and a dirty, dirty room for uh uh uh for lapidary stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but everything's pretty dirty out in the shop. I got an exciting thing. I just got three phase power.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we just got uh my face converter hooked up last week because I scored a big, beautiful surface grinder. Um She'll be two years in December. It's been a long time. It's just been sitting there taking up a lot of space. So just moved it in the shop. The folks will come back tomorrow and get her all wired up and hopefully it works.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00If not, they'll hook me up with another machine. But uh that'd be a game changer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Have a real surface grinder.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. What have you been using uh today? Like a belt belt fixture or what uh how you surface.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've got a belt fixture and I've got uh the TW90 also. So I've I've got two. But uh you know, the stone one is so nice, and you know, it's all automated, it should it'll do things while I'm doing something else. I love that. It's like how a little buddy out there helping me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, you know, that's something that um I I in the versatility world, you know, belts makes a lot of sense, but there are some things that you just can't get absolutely flat with uh with a belt. Uh that's I mean, a stem uh Tim Robertson uh in Marietta, Oklahoma, uh slip slip joint maker and everything, and um uh he like I I I understood some of the like the basic fundamentals of surface grinding, but he really helped me tone that skill set um thinking about using a stone surface grinder uh as a machinist. And there are some ways that you can get things like dead flat down to like you know half ten thousandths or more. I mean, I know that the surface grinder like with stones can get down to like the you know 50 millionth or whatever, but uh those kind of tolerances really not required for our type of work. But but you know, for like when you're doing pocket knives um and things that are you know metal on metal and there's a lot of like visibility for things that are not true, um, a stone really makes it um advantageous. Like I I honestly don't know. I um if I remember correctly, Rick uh Rick Dunkerly du uses a belt um modified surface grinder. Hey, like to me, like he the the way that he is able to get his fit and finish on a belt with that, uh I mean, even an aluminum wheel um is uh confounding to me. Like I think that he's whatever he's figured out is just like uh uh beyond what the what I consider the normal capabilities of a belt um surface grinder, but he's managed to do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he he he he makes amazing stuff. And I just I I love the the flow of Rick's work. He's got I mean that the knives have a lot of sex appeal. Um just the the complimentary curves, kind of a lot of his Persian style ones. Oh my god, that's a pretty knife. But uh he's he's he's got the artistic thing figured out, but just the flow. I mean he makes he makes amazing stuff.
SPEAKER_04So um I'm you know, you we talked a little bit about uh you know being a farrier and ranching and stuff like that. Um what do you think like I'm interested to know, I guess, what made you the way that you are. Have you always been like this um uh challenger? Uh you know, like uh uh like chat challenging this, like I guess this uh I'm trying to think of a way to uh put it. It's m my observation of you is that if somebody tells you no, uh you're not gonna take their word for it, right? And then you're gonna prove them wrong.
SPEAKER_00Oh probably getting pounded on by two older brothers too.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. But uh Have you all have you always been like that? Is that always is that just part of your nature of you know from when you're a kid and everything, or it like kind of what what stems this uh desire to um to prove your worth and to prove that something can uh can happen?
SPEAKER_00My parents are really cool. Parents are super supportive, always have been. And uh they're my number one fans, but uh yeah, I don't know. Maybe because I was always a little bit different, I was striving to be better. Maybe that's it. I was kind of a I know you know I can believe this, but I've been called the tomboy once or twice. But boy stuff is way more fun to do than girl stuff is, everybody knows it. And uh yeah, I don't know. It's kind of a free spirit. Always loved riding horses and always loved building things. So when I was uh in high school, uh I enjoy I uh discovered the auto shop and uh my dad used to buy cars at the auction. They'd have something wrong with them, and then uh I'd fix them in the auto shop and I just love it. I mean I spent every every moment that I wasn't in class and I was in the auto shop building something, and uh just found I really enjoyed that. Yeah, so even I mean I was canning for a while, I really enjoyed that. I was making something there too. But I I can't see getting bored making knives because there's so many different avenues. I that it's just the possibilities are endless. You just go on and on, and it's you know, whatever idea comes up, well, I can make that. Let's try it. Let's draw a picture and try it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, no, and I get that. I mean, um I I I've found the same thing. Like knives, uh, I it's it's one of these things that has a weird, like there's weird subcultures. So like, yeah, we sit in like a a a niche of artistry and making things or whatever, uh, but then there's somebody subcultures and uh and sometimes in in some areas you have bureaucracy and others you have um gatekeeping, in other ways you have just like this the underground where everybody just wants to like share knowledge and do really interesting, like obtuse things. Right. Um and and and that's something that I've really appreciated about it, is like m knives is multifaceted and touches so many different areas of artistry and uh you know, you have you know, glass blowing and uh jewelry making and leathercraft and you know engraving and stone setting, lapidary. Like there's there's just like you could you could really go down a rabbit hole every day and never have you know, never have something that never have something that stops you, like uh in in the way that you can uh ideate out of it, I guess.
SPEAKER_00I like I like the idea of making family heirlooms too. I think that's pretty neat. Yeah, something that's gonna get passed down and down and and uh I don't know, like collector's items. That's pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, you know, like uh that's something that um I've tried to think of a way to frame this. Uh uh, you know, I I I don't know the most about the uh Japanese culture around uh swords and edged edged weapons, right? Um like I can't I can't name a bunch of makers, I can't name all the different steel types and things like that. But what I've appreciated as a broad um uh understanding is that you know you have all these like Japanese masters in in swords and things like that, and the techniques that they use are honed and carried over for like hundreds of years, and then those things are put together and they're so elegantly balanced and functional and and in some ways just have very gaudy pieces to them, and then you know, they would sit in a family's home and they would be the crown jewels of that family, passed down for more hundreds of years, and you know, at this at the same time they would be used in in war uh to protect the family and and its honor and everything. And I've I've thought about that in knives too, where you know, uh being able to capture a portion of that functional art and and for it to mean something to that family, um, to me is is an interesting uh you know subsection, I guess. Like a thing that I think about is like are my knives going to be carried by somebody and well once I'm gone and everything, like what is that what's that thing that makes that like a knife last generations?
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Oh, it's it's a pretty cool concept for me. I'm just uh kind of blown away by it. But so since it is kind of forever. So being a farrier, you get into a little bit of this uh, you know, if something goes a little bit wrong, you know, you you put a little dip in the foot or whatever like that, it'll it'll grow out in six weeks. I'll fix it. Knives aren't like that, not unless you make all takedowns. But uh once you glue it up, it's like a forever thing. I gotten pretty good at sneaking the handles back off again. But uh yeah, glue does not fix problems. That's my word of wisdom for today. Nothing's gonna get fixed by gluing it together and then trying to fix it. But uh yeah, I had to get out of the the six-week mentality. And uh, you know, this is like forever. It's a forever thing. You better do it right.
SPEAKER_04Um I'm I'm I'm intrigued by like your journey uh through uh exploring Damascus and whatnot. Um like your I mean your riptide pattern is like phenomenal. Uh but I like what what got you into this exploration and in Damascus patterns and and things like that uh originally, uh other than what I know that you mentioned that you were um you you had played with uh some like random pattern and things like that, but I mean now that you're doing um well all all this like real crazy stuff, kind of like what what spurred you on to go down this route and with you know real complex patterns and mosaics and things.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's I mean Damascus is mesmerizing. You just look at it and I'm sure if if I if I smoke drug cigarettes, you could smoke a drug cigarette and sit there and stare at it and all sorts of neat things that show up. But but I mean it it it is amazing that you can control a pattern like that. I mean, there's a lot of people who do it way better than I do with super controlled patterns, but I always wanted to make things that uh that you could distort, distort and make flow. And kind of went along with the lines of the knife or or whatever, you know, and uh so you know, just just like making a pattern and then forging your knife into it, you're gonna see that you forged that pattern and it and you could you can make it move. So that was the riptide thing was um I tended to overforge feathers and just turn them into the seaweed that runs out the front, and so uh, you know, I'm like, wow, I managed to turn that into straight lines, and I worked really hard at it. So uh I was trying to create a better half a feather, is what I wanted, and uh just messing around, and it was funny because I I didn't even know what I had. And I remember the morning, I was right out there. I'd etched that thing and looked at it, put a little little practice etch, and I'm like, oh, holy damn, look what you did. Look at that, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life, and uh and the cool part is I can reproduce it and make it over and over and over again. It's really hard to overforge, but uh, you know, it takes some processes to get it there. But uh yeah, I I I found my niche with that one. So then I try to expand off that one pattern, I can, you know, add some extra dark stuff in the middle or throw in a piece of pure nickel or do whatever I want to it, and where it still has the same concept of it, you know, it looks like a wing and flows with the blade. But uh, you know, I can change it up a little bit. So I don't know, that that's kind of and then I don't want to be a one-trick pony and just make the one thing. So I'll make some mosaics and I got some other ideas of stuff I want to play with. But for you know, for every day I spend out here building steel and forging or whatever, you have 9,000 hours of finish work. So I'm onto the finish work thing right now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I get that. So I mean, how much uh how much time would you s uh say on your work that you spend and bench time versus the you know the the forging and construction component of things?
SPEAKER_00Oh, probably ninety. I betcha. Because yeah, I'll I'll I'll have like you know, two I call my day of fun. Hey, Kelly's day of fun. I'll just sit out here and swing a hammer for a couple of days and you know, obviously I have a power hammer and a very nice press and things like that. But um, yeah, and I'm like, wow, this is gonna take a long time to finish. I'm getting faster and I'm getting more efficient, getting a little smarter about stuff. Um one thing I'm learning is to if things aren't going correctly, is just stick that sucker in a drawer and wait till you get smarter. You know, it might be a month or two or a year, and all of a sudden you're like, hey, I can fix that. I'm working on one right now that I've been just throwing around the shop for the last year and a half and using it to to you know uh scrape the rouge out of my my cork belts and and cutting kale wool with it. And uh also I picked it up the other day. I'm like, I couldn't remember, I couldn't remember what I hated about it so much. And so now it now it's got a new life. It's fixing it to be a knife here pretty quick. It's a really nice one.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, I I don't think I've seen anything that you've produced that I haven't liked. Um and that's a really like a little piece of you. Well thank you. Well, I that that is interesting to me too. Um I we live in a great time. I I th well it's a bad time because I really do hate social media in some ways. Um but it is a good time in the sense that uh a person doesn't get to like s rest on these laurels of like I I always produce the greatest thing ever. Right. Um there there's so many times when you get to see little snapshots of like the behind the scenes, like you know, there's some times when I really have to nurture a nice knife out of what I consider a turd-looking thing, right?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_04And it's not that it it's not even that uh everything starts off looking mostly like the end end product, right? I mean, you know that with Damascus, so it's just like you know, it's a it's a graduation of getting to that final thing, uh, not not so much that it it starts out existing in that pretty state.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Um and and I I think that we do get the ability to share a little bit more of like behind the curtain. Uh, and that's what I've I've appreciated over the last maybe five or six years of of seeing knives uh in social media is that um it kind of demystifies um and um I don't think it de-glamorizes, but it definitely demystifies some of those things where it's like this is the progressive steps to get to that final result, and it seems a little bit more uh obtainable um if you know that there are some processes that just start out real ugly and you gotta be the one to add the beauty to it.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, no, I enjoy that. I I probably should do it more, and if I wasn't such a pathetic loser about, you know, finishing things or screwing stuff up and having to start it over again, I guess that that's good good Facebook too, or good social media also. But uh I'm like I should put all my steps down on and then I just don't get around to it. Because it it's almost like a almost like a job, you know, once you once you post something, then then you've got to follow up on it. And when you're doing that, and everything I do takes two hands. So, you know, you have you have to do that also. So there's like a a little time constraint there. I guess I'm a little greedy with my time. Don't have a lot of it, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean that you know, like you do that and you see you post uh processes and stuff, and then you have a bunch of like uh, you know, little little Kelly's asking you how you did that thing, and then you gotta be the one to explain it. And you're gonna you're gonna be the person that everybody's coming to to ask a bunch of questions to so that they can learn too. It's gonna it's a it's it's a seal that sh maybe sometimes should not be um broken.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess uh some people are good at you know taking that and turning it into a moneymaker. But uh I don't know. I always figure I already already have my jobs. I shoot horses, I make knives, you know what what I what I bring in from from my blades. I mean it's it's not bad. I'm doing all right. But obviously it's not as good as as well as I do shoeing horses. But I figure I'll do I'll shoot horses long enough to to mask my my uh my huge pile of very expensive equipment. And then I'll already have it, and I can sit at home make knives, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I would say that's the way to do it. I mean, getting getting all of your equipment and everything and kind of curating your shop uh is probably the largest uh jumping off point, I think, for people going full-time into knives. Um just because, man, equipment is expensive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'm you know lucky because I've I've had you know a lot of this stuff for they say over 30 years, you know, definitely have forge, plenty of forges and ambles and hand tools. But uh, you know, you gotta buy expensive grinders, and then you know you have to start with one, and then well, what if one the one breaks? So you might as well buy another one, right? Because nobody wants to be around me without a grinder. So I figure it was in my husband's best interest if I bought a second grinder just in case something happened in the first grinder. So, you know, I I have to think about other people also in that respect.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, magnanimous. Um well, I mean, uh, and then you get to the point too where you're like, Well, um uh something I've appreciated about Bill Rupel, right, is that uh um he's very good at communicating the economy of making knives, right? It's like so if if you make this if you make this knife, you're gonna sell it for this amount of time or for this amount. And really the only way to make it profitable is to be able to do up certain operations very efficiently. Right?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_04And and in that same vein, um the one use tool in your shop, right, is sometimes uh, you know, like if you have like five or six grinders, um, you don't have to change belts on the machine, you just change machines and you can progress through these operations that you have. Um so maybe one I mean it's not it's not out of the question that you have five or six grinders.
SPEAKER_00Uh you're gonna make me go shopping.
SPEAKER_04You just need to you just need to get uh you need to uh just decide to bite the bullet all at the same time and just buy a few of them, get a volume discount.
SPEAKER_00There we go. My my problem here is is I we got like a hundred and twenty amp service or something ridiculous like that. So uh just I I have a I have a power issue. I'm not I'm not allowed to run two things at once. Like like even the the new surface grinder, I'm not gonna be able to run the power hammer and the surface grinder at the same time, which kind of sucks, but I'll just do something else. So that a little bit of a little bit of a lack of power out here. My dream shop, everything's gonna be set up correctly. All my hot stuff isn't gonna be in the hottest spot, spot of the shop, which is where it's at now. And uh I'm gonna have unlimited power.
SPEAKER_04Unlimited cosmic power. Um yeah, so I mean that's that's interesting. Are you um is are how does a shop how's like a your dream shop look? I uh it's so weird. I I talk to knife makers about this a lot because I think that the the shop is never big enough. But like what does your dream shop look like? And are like are you planning uh when you kind of get to that that phase uh building it on your property and everything? You guys like would you like to move somewhere different or kind of what is that what does that dream look like for you?
SPEAKER_00Oh we're always talking about you know moving to a out of Camifornia, but uh you know my parents are here and I spent a lot of time with them and I'm I'm not leaving them. So uh so we'll and and we do have a very nice piece of property. I have most people's dream shop. I mean it it's big. And uh probably my dream shop would have like a you know, nice office clean room, clean room or whatever, and uh more big fancy equipment. But I I do kind of have the dream shop. I have an amazing shop. I've got a lot of cool stuff. I'm I'm blessed in that respect. And uh, and we have a nice piece of property. I'm kind of running out of room to expand too, because I've already added onto it twice. So I'm I'm I'm running out of expansion room. We're gonna not gonna have a driveway anymore.
SPEAKER_03Who needs a driveway?
SPEAKER_00Knock down part of the house so I can make the shop bigger.
SPEAKER_04Well, do you Have the ability to expand another uh power drop into the uh property, like uh to get the power that you're looking for?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. I I'm sure it'd be really expensive, but probably.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm I I honestly am not sure uh how that all that works. Uh you could probably talk to people that are a lot smarter than me. Like I remember um when I was younger, we had a main a main line to the house, and then my parents had put a trailer on the second portion of property because it was like I don't know, it was like seven acres.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04And and so they got a a separate power drop to the trailer and everything so it could run independently um of of the what was on the house. So it oddly enough, it was just a far enough up the road where sometimes if the power went out during the storms or whatever, the trailer would get power and have heat and everything like that in the winter or whatever, and the house wouldn't. Um, but yeah, you can uh I'm sure you could probably explore that with the power company of like what that would cost to actually do it. And I don't it's not it's not unreasonable, I don't think. I mean it's not like you know $30,000. It's not like $600.
SPEAKER_00I think it's like $30,000.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure.
SPEAKER_00I think I think that's a number that I've heard thrown around.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it'd be interesting. I mean, that is one thing. Like I I can't do that either. Like I'm on a res residential power line and everything, and so I don't I don't even have a rotary phase converter on my uh on my surface grinder. I have a static phase converter for just that one thing, and then for everything else I use uh variable speed or variaf variable frequency drives.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04But you know, on the big machinery, you can't really get away with that so much.
SPEAKER_00So exactly. This thing's a monster, but it's like 39 and a half amp or something. So that I mean the lights dim when you turn it on. And it'll squish some stuff and it'll twist it.
SPEAKER_04Is it is it a custom made one or is there a manufacturer for it?
SPEAKER_00I I think he he built about six and then quit. It was uh uh cattle fish or blackfish, blackfish industrial.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00But uh I think he just built a few and then and then stopped building them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which is apt to happen whenever you're machining stuff and fabricating things. It's like uh I've I've done some small tools and like f like pin presses and stuff, uh-huh. And after a few of them, I was kind of like, I'm not doing this anymore. Like I spend so much time like stopping what I'm doing to drill holes and flatten stuff and weld things and like uh the the tool makers I appreciate, but um because uh it's nice sometimes to buy versus build, uh, but man, like I I couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then plus that too much of a repetition thing too.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Gotta make something different all the time, a little bit different.
SPEAKER_04Well, and there's no in in mach like uh making tooling and stuff, there's there's not really a great line in the sand on like how you value your time either. Um because you know, on these pin presses, I could buy the raw materials for I don't know, maybe like 150 bucks. Um and I would spend probably like you know, 15, 20 hours making the thing and sell it for 400. And I'm like, I'm not even yeah, I'm like I'm not I'm not even getting knife making prices for this tool and I have like three knives in it. But yeah, I mean it's like I I but I felt bad. It's like you can't charge a thousand dollars for a simple pin press. I mean it has a few very good uses, but it's like really difficult to uh feel uh feel good about charging another knife maker or whatever, like a lot of money um to you know just do some simple operations. So yeah, um so I think um um one of the uh last questions I really have in inside of what we've been talking about is like I'm I'm interested to know because in I it's it's obvious that you haven't just come on the scene, right? I mean you've been doing this for so long and uh like in in the the blacksmithing and farrier uh a component of of things that it's not it should not be new uh to some people to see that you know to uh I guess see that you've you've just cropped up. I mean you've been doing this for a while and your social media um has has uh shown a lot of great progression in your work too. Um what would you recommend to uh younger makers uh starting out uh to get to a place where they um I don't I don't know, maybe capture a component of your passion or whatever. Is there is there are there some things that you would recommend uh based on your experience to um spur other like newer makers on?
SPEAKER_00I I would say well fairiers are into or the the group of uh farriers I was raised with. I mean, we're we're into further education, you know, we're we're into to going to school. Like you were talking about, you know, wanting to be a vet and then the time spent at school. I guess I didn't have to spend that that amount of time at school and be probably going to school the whole time. You know, so like I've I've got a failure clinic next weekend, you know, and go learn some stuff. That's exciting. I love learning things. And then uh you're surrounding yourself with with people who are better than you, and then just even the the other students that you're interacting with, you know, I I think you all push each other. Yeah, even uh some of the guys I met in engraving school, you know, are are texting me, how you doing? What's up? You know, send me a picture of your bench, whatever. You know, uh so I I think you need to like inject yourself into just the camaraderie part, and uh I said hanging out with people who are smarter than you, you know, and asking questions and trying different things and not being afraid to fail. And uh just I think everybody's oh you're so talented, so talented. I'm persistent, is what I am. I'm just oh no, I'm bullheaded. I'm I'm I'm gonna finish this thing, you know, and I'm gonna figure it out. And sometimes I say you gotta do the throwdown and do something else for a minute until you get the answer, and like, okay, all right, now I can do that. I'm gonna go back on to it. And uh so I don't I don't know if there's a special recipe, you know. We're we're all we're all made a little bit different, and some people more motivated than others, but uh I never felt like I I went out, I didn't start out to to make beautiful knives, I was just building stuff because it was fun. Yeah, I wanted to build hunting knives, whatever. And uh just once you start seeing the possibilities out there, I think that that pushes you on. And then uh like I said, your your relationships with other people, like-minded people. I I think that's pretty awesome also. I've I've made a lot of great friends in both industries. I mean, I know a lot of people. I have friends all over the world. I think it's awesome.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, I think that's good advice. I mean, I I I think that that's one difficult it's one difficult piece to uh think about um just doing, right? To be to to just you know there's no real easy quick routes to things that it just takes time and it takes energy and it takes persistence. And that's one theme that I've uh I've captured, I think, uh pretty well across knife making is that it just it you just gotta do it, right? Yeah you gotta put in the time, you gotta earn your earn your way. And I I I I think that there's some people that think that like uh paying your dues is something like paying your dues to the industry. Um and I I think that that is a fairly narrow way of thinking of it. Like what I when I think about people like you, uh when I think about people like Bruce Bump or John Horrigan or uh Rick Dunkerly or like a lot of these um these people that are very admirable, uh they paid their dues to the to their craft and to their way of doing things and to learn uh learn it for themselves. And I think that if a if if people are um getting into this thing or trying to push themselves and motivate themselves, it really is more of a duty to explore your own mind and your own possibilities and your own limitations and whatnot, more than it is trying to um to conform to like some I don't know, like oh, there's a dog. Uh but yeah, um sorry, a squirrel.
SPEAKER_00Trust me, there's nobody here. Nobody here.
SPEAKER_04It's okay. We're uh uh I know that we talked earlier about that, but when I was talking with Lynn Ray, he had like geese or ducks or something like that that were like uh walking by. But um, but you know, like I think it you like you are you are the the the person that sits inside of uh or or like blocks yourself from achieving things. Oh yeah. And I think that like what I've discovered is like it it just has I mean you you have to be the one to kind of break those seals and to push yourself and if if we can all be a little bit more uh respectful of the just the process of fit failing and uh and learning and uh and trying to figure out ourselves that uh it becomes well it doesn't make it easier, but at least it makes it more understandable that you're doing it for a reason and it's coming from you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you have to be your own self-motivator. You know, if it's daylight hours, I'm out here and sometimes into the night I'm out here. And that's just all I want to do. I get up in the morning, run out in the shop, and get to work, go shoe some horses, come back and play in the shop. I call it playing in the shop, and I don't say a guy brought it up to me, he brought his horse out here for me to shoe, and he said, uh, you know, you said something to me once. You said, I don't say I have to go to work, I say I get to go to work. You know, some people don't get to go to work, and he's like, it it made me think a little bit because you know, he said, I don't love my job, but you know, it's a good job and support my wife and my kids and you know make decent money. And uh, you know, it it changed my whole perspective on things. You know, I get to go to work. Some people don't get to go to work, and some people don't get to work at two jobs that are awesome. That's me. I mean, I have I have two jobs that are very gratifying. I love that. So uh I don't know. I think uh yeah, a lot of it's your state of mind. And so I when I find myself saying, you know, I gotta go to work, I'm like, no, I get to go to work. So it's it's it's uh just your own po positive attitude. You know, I was raised by the most positive person in the world, and I think I got a bunch of that. So I don't know, that's that's uh that's my driver, my outlook, I think, that helps me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, I mean, if any if anybody thinks about your work or your uh contributions towards knife making, um I like I I I want them to to realize that there is there's a lot of uh God-given talent, um, but then there's there there's an exceptional amount of hard-earned talent. Oh, definitely. And that's the thing. It's like I I think that uh we we might be given gifts, but what we do with those things is really the determining factor whether the rest of the world gets to benefit from them or whether they are actually realized gifts, you know.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. That that's a true statement, you know. God gives us the willpower, you know, two arms and two legs, if you're lucky. And uh, you know, just just gives you the want and the drive. And then it's what you do with it.
SPEAKER_04Well, um, I know that you have a full day of other things that you'd probably rather be doing, and um I'm gonna let you get back to it. You know, I I just admire your work and I admire your ethic, and I uh I think that it's uh an incredible gift to the rest of us to be able to see that energy that you put into it and your willingness to uh you know get shit done as it were.
SPEAKER_00I thank you. I really appreciate it. This this is pretty fun, actually. I enjoy it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're welcome on any other time you want to. Um I'm sure that we can dig into other other uh components of things. Um, you know, I'm I I Damascus really fascinates me. Um and I that's that's also one reason why I wanted to uh kind of embrace this uh forged um ABS type of route is really just to kind of like, I don't know, force myself into something where I have to um um I have to financially necessitate getting into Damascus and whatnot, because right now it's like uh it you know, it is a big ask to try to re-outfit my entire shop with all the stuff that I need to forge. Um but um that that kind of pushes me in a direction where I I consider that like you know uh getting a certification like that is like paying paying your way to a certain knowledge set, and um and so Damascus really interested me and like kind of what you're doing uh is is fascinating. I've really enjoyed all this uh the the newer um mosaic Damascus concepts and whatnot, especially what's being done with some of this 3D printing canister Damascus stuff.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh you know, Steve Schwarzer has been talking about that a lot, and I've seen you know it pop up other places. So uh mosaics boggle my mind too. I just don't know if I can think that dimensionally about things.
SPEAKER_00Uh it it's cool because every time you four way it, something else comes up. That's pretty cool. And like all of a sudden you've got another pattern in there. I'm like, well, that's neat. And then, you know, if you you four way it and then forge it on the bias, which is what I like to do, is just re-square it the other way, and then put a little put a little whoopie going through it, and put four of those together. That's just kind of fun. So that kind of skies the limit, and sometimes it doesn't work out, you just have junk, and then uh sometimes it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, uh one day when you get to a point where you want to like write a a book or something like that uh on Damascus and different patterns and stuff, you need to do it, but then with all of your kind of like vernacular, like uh I want somebody to sit there and figure out what is a whoopagon uh look like describing describing how to do something. I I love that. It's great. It's funny. All right, Kelly. Well, it's you know incredible pleasure, and um I really appreciate you taking the time um out of your your day that is divided up amongst a lot of duties and stuff. Um, but um, you know, uh I hope that I get to see more through social of how you you play in the shop and whatnot. And I'm just you know, uh I admire your work a lot.
SPEAKER_00All right, great. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thanks. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless you.
