The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Join me as I talk to other knifemakers, craftsmen and artisans in my journey to unpack the mysteries of knifemaking, and the culture by which it's built. This podcast features interviews with many of the men and women who have built, or are building the industry of knives and knife making as we know it today. Visit us at thegoodolbladespodcast.com!
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The Good Ol' Blades Podcast
Episode 38 - High & Tight Knives - Neal Green
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I've always admired the military man because of the regimen and order that encapsulates the service. Neal Green embodies his career in the U.S. Army in his knives in a way that follows a structured and clean look, but also gives way to his creative eye by allowing him to play with themes and materials, to juxtapose order in an otherwise chaotic medium. His knives and leatherwork are some of the cleanest out there for a "new" knifemaker, and his personality and enthusiasm for the craft is a tide that levels all boats. I got to spend some quality time with him, peaking a little further behind the curtain than he shares on social media, and we talked about some core ideologies, interests and goals that I think unite all of us in this craft.
You can find Neal on Instagram, and his Website, and I recommend you pick up one of his very reasonably priced knives. They're superb quality.
I am here. And join me as we talk to other knife makers. Neil Green of Double X Knives is a humble, retired army veteran, husband, father, and cybersecurity wizard. But he also is a darn good knife maker. Neil's clean and functional knife aesthetic has made waves over the years as he constantly pushes himself to isolate what he considers the quintessential knife. He spent years cultivating himself in regiment and precision, and it has no doubt bled into his knife making process because knife after knife, a consistency and theme emerge. And that's one of a place for everything, and everything has its place. With Neil's knives, everything is on purpose, from his design to his finish, to his handled material choices, and even the stellar leather work he creates. It all screams Neil's inner desire for order out of chaos. And you'll find that everything he creates, it never wavers on expressing his inner vision. Neil, it's great to have you on the Good Old Blades Podcast.
SPEAKER_01I'm uh glad to be here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So um I'd like the audience to gain a little bit better uh perspective of uh what um what you do. And and I mean obviously you're a knife maker, right? Uh but um you know something that I try to do is glean a little bit of who a person is, like their their knife journey and their life journey through uh like their website or things like that. And your your website has a lot of your um product content and stuff like that on it, but not so much about you and your personal life or your career in the military, things like that. So if you can if you can do me a favor and um talk a little bit more about that, I would love to uh kind of hear it from your mouth versus what I've interpreted through social media.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. First and foremost, uh I can't tell you how much I appreciate the uh the offer to do this. Um, you know, as I was telling you before the show, um, you know, I I wasn't aware of this podcast, and um so I turned it on over the last few days and I love it. And so again, appreciate the this opportunity. And then the opportunity to tell my story. So um it's somewhat of a um odd journey, I think. I don't know, um, and to to not drag this out as as uh long as it probably could be, um, you know, on my personal life. So born and raised in Georgetown, Delaware, which is southern Delaware, and um, you know, went to college, went to the Army after that, and then the last 20 years been in the Army and uh just recently retired and uh end of September. And um in the the knife making journey started, you know, in the midst of that. And um my hometown volunteer fire company, Georgetown Delaware Fire Company, they do uh an oyster roast each year. And at that oyster roast, uh it's you know, it's a benefit oyster roast, all proceeds go to the the volunteer fire company. And um during during the roast, they do an auction, and um they auction off an oyster knife. And um, you know, growing up as a kid, um, you know, you you hear about who's gonna make the oyster knife this year, you know, Uncle Joe or whoever it may be in the town. And this is a pretty big event for the town, um, and for southern Delaware, actually. And um, and so anyway, you know, fast forward to to I think it was 2011, um, my dad, you know, I'm off in I think Georgia at the time, and uh my my dad was asked to do the oyster knife. And so he did it for a year or two, and then asked me, hey Neil, look, I can't do this, you know, uh every year. Do you want to jump in? And so I made an oyster knife for this oyster roast. And again, all proceeds, you know, it's auctions and all proceeds go to the volunteer fire company, uh, everything from equipment to training. And so I made it one year and I was hooked on knife making. And so um I've made uh not every knife since then, but just about every knife since then. And my dad typically makes the plaque for it. And uh so these knives, they will auction up to six, seven thousand dollars. And so it's something, you know, the journey of how I got started making knives is something I'm proud about because it started as a, you know, I don't know if you want to call it charity or or benefit or, you know, goodwill intended, um, because that that money is is somewhat significant, you know, for that that fire company each year. And um, and so uh, you know, that's how I got started making knives, um, the the true essence of you know what got me into the craft. But I I will tell you this, um, I didn't know a thing um about knife making when I first started and you know the first several years, I'll put it to you this way, Aaron. I I didn't know knives had to be heat treated. So um, you know, I truly didn't know what I was doing. And um I'd like to think I've come a long way, but uh, you know, I'm not sure I'm the judge of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um it's when when you say that you that you made this uh oyster shucking knife, um did you have did you have equipment? Like I mean what what did your setup look like then? Was it were you doing stuff kind of like um like hobby style, or um did you have equipment from other like purposes or whatever? Like what what what exactly what did the seed look like when it came to equipment?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was you know a file and I think after the first year I got one of those Harbor Freight one by thirties, and I used that for like two or three years, and then that transitioned into the grizzly um you know, the grizzly, I don't know, it's like the knife, I think it's called the Grizzly Knife Making Belt Sander, which is two by seventy-two. Um, and then it's kind of you know just expanded from there. But yeah, the first few years it was on a one by thirty and a buffer um and files, you know. And again, I was before I understood the concepts, you know, and I wasn't really doing much research on my own. Um I just knew I liked the craft and you know, I I get pieces of rebar and um I tell you, people loved it. And but I get pieces of rebar and uh and m make the end, you know, uh uh put a put a shine on the end and and shape it and put a handle on it and um and people people loved it. And from there, um from there, again, this is somewhat not a traditional journey. Um, but because being in the army, shop space was always dictated by where I was, what kind of house I could get to rent, um, you know, all sorts of things. And, you know, so I was always hesitant to grow my shop because I knew within the next year or two I'd be moving and I have to move it. And we're you know, we have certain weight allowances and things like that. So I was all I've always been very selective and minimal with the equipment I had. And um and you know, that's kind of in a in a way limited me, or maybe that's a self-limiting factor. Um but uh you know, that's just kind of how it started. And then because of that limitation, I I realized that um, you know, there's there's a thing called mid-tech knives. And so I got into mid-tech knives for you know, a few years, probably about two years. Um I realized that, hey, to to to do this with the minimum amount of time, minimal amount of space, and minimal amount of equipment that I have, you know, I I could buy I could design and buy um, you know, a hundred knife blanks for a fraction of what it cost me um to make it myself. And, you know, the specs on it were, you know, were great. Um again, I started with oyster knives being, you know, the primary um knife. Uh to be honest with you, I thought that I was only going to make coastal type knives, fillet knives, um, coastal cutlery, that sort of thing. My first business name was title tools and leather, title like the tide. And um, you know, that was gonna be my my shtick. It was gonna be coastal stuff, right? So crab knives, clam knives, oyster knives, you know, not many people out there do this type of cutlery at the custom level. You know, it's all you know, good stuff like Dexter Russell or something to that effect, but it's not custom. And so I was like, hey, that's a niche I'm gonna I'm gonna get into. And um I designed an oyster uh knife and it's um proliferated. You know, uh the the deal was when I went to this uh mid tech um company, the deal was, hey, you yeah, you design it, you get a a price cut, um, but we um are able to resell that that blade blank. And I was like, yeah, sure, whatever. Um and so that that design is actually out there quite a bit now. Um and so I worked my way through, you know, those oyster knife blanks for, like I said, I don't know, about two years. And then I realized, hey, I kind of want to do something a little bit more. I kind of want to don't want to be just a mid-tech guy. I um not that there's by any means something wrong with it, but I just I wanted to kind of expand my um my capabilities. I wanted to make different knives. I no longer wanted to do just you know, just cutlery for um just co coastal cutlery, that sort of thing. I wanted to do hunting knives, I wanted to do some tactical, and I wanted to do all sorts of stuff. And so um I kind of put the the blanks on the shelf. I mean, I probably still have a hundred or so sitting out in the shop now, and um, you know, and then I just started in and you know, designing new designs, and and that's really what's led me to where I'm at today. Um you know, if people ask, hey, when did you start making knives? I, you know, I s started in 2012. And then when did I really make it? Um when did I become a knife maker? I tell people, I think realistically, probably not until 2017. Um, that's when I really, you know, doing my own thing, you know, new designs, um and um really had that handle of things. It's probably not until 2017, but that's kind of a little bit more of the story.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes sense. So um what is what was your uh military career like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's somewhat of uh in in my words or my eyes, it's a little bit vanilla. Um I I went to University of Delaware. I had a ROTC scholarship, and um the final year, my senior year, I decided, hey, I'm probably not gonna do the Army for long term. So what would what would serve a dual purpose um for my life after the Army? And I said, you know, I'm gonna come back to Delaware. I want to be a state trooper. Um, so I want to do the military police in the Army. That'll, you know, in my mind at the time, you know, I th I figured that that's what would help me do a transition later down the road. And so I went into the military police. And um I did 10 years as a military police officer. And then about um, you know, right around the 10-year mark, I switched to a what's called a functional area, an information systems engineer. And um that's IT work, everything from managing a server room to help desk operations. And then the last several assignments, I've been doing cybersecurity stuff. And um, and then that's that's what I do today. That's you know, I just retired and transitioned to a a cybersecurity job, and um and I love it.
SPEAKER_00Um well it's interesting because you know, like I also work in cybersecurity. Um what uh what is your your like job now and and entail uh in cybersecurity?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I uh it's pretty boring too, I think to most people. It's um it's a lot of paperwork. I do um I I am a contractor for um on on a government contract and I do uh really a lot of paperwork. So um risk management framework, um, that sort of thing, you know, documentation that s supports that. Um make sure all of the uh T's are crossed and I's dotted, um, you know, to maintain proper cybersecurity within your systems and boundaries and things like that.
SPEAKER_00My man risk management. Um you know, like it it might be this the moment where people like tune out, they're like, oh God, risk management. But uh to me, to me, like uh cybersecurity and security-mindedness in general uh is all about uh some form of risk mitigation. And so um I've I've actually uh I say like I'm gonna knock on some wood here. Um using the same methodologies that I use for risk mitigation and other things uh in security, I haven't really had any big shop accidents. Um I don't follow like OSHA uh type of standards, but you know, in the general, like this is probably a bad idea, let me do something to help, you know, mitigate risk if this thing should happen. You know, thinking through that entire process like down 20, 30 steps um has has afforded me uh more digits and less uh like uh accidents. Um and so uh in the in the whole like cross-disciplinary um concept of you know, you take one thing that you're good at and maybe you apply it to knives or vice versa. Um that like risk risk management and mitigation has helped me an awful lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I mean keeping all your digits is a is a good thing in life, generally speaking. Um yeah, I mean it is it is somewhat boring. Um I you know, my my transition, so this last year was huge for the Green family. We, you know, uh we moved, uh we moved, you know, I retired, but we moved from Colorado Springs to uh Hampstead, North Carolina, which I'm you know, h hopefully we'll call home for the long term. Um, you know, I retired, um, which is you know significant. It's uh, you know, any military people listening that went through the retirement process or transition process in general, I mean it's a significant life change. Um, and then we're building a house as part of like kind of our long-term re retirement plan. So three things there, you know, combined. And that's not even we're talking about, you know, the transition for the kids, right? Losing their friends and and all the stuff that's associated with that. Um but as far as the job and and cybersecurity, I mean the the unfortunate thing is you know, people still pay, like a Nigerian Prince still gets paid like millions of dollars each year, you know. And it's the the truth is that uh with cybersecurity stuff, generally speaking, uh it is still the simple things that cause people to go under, you know, like a password one, two, three or something so simple as that, or clicking on links, and um, you know, it's job security for me, but uh nonetheless, it's still it's almost funny. I mean, at this day and age, the the things that still happen.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Um so uh early on in the podcast, I had done some micro podcasts, and I thought about getting back into it, but I I really um I thought about transitioning to having like other knife makers um send me in like tips and tricks and things, and then um, you know, as like co-branding or whatever, you know, be on the the Good Old Boys podcast, but then um, you know, feature those makers that want to share some of their tips and tricks. But um one of the first things that I covered was the difference between being hacked and and having spoofed accounts and what um you know some security mitigation or security uh steps you can uh take to uh mitigate um having your uh your profiles hacked and whatnot. Because you know, um a lot of a lot of knife makers are not necessarily uh technologically literate. And um and well, I mean, you know, it's ev it's everybody, but it's also um you know, salt of the earth makers and whatnot. And um a common problem though is like using you're using social media, you're trying to sell your uh goods on on it, and your profile gets hacked, and then you I mean you whatever followers you have, um you cannot communicate with them. You have you know this uh this threat actor masquerading um and and trying to you know clip money out of uh off of you know your customers or followers. And if you don't like Facebook and and Instagram and TikTok and them, they they have very few um remediation efforts that you can actually get your account back after that happens. And so it's like you know, multi-factor authentication and other things are are humongous um stop gaps uh for you know poor password hygiene and everything. So um it's it's one of those things where um like I identities online is really where uh where uh the larger amount of theft occurs. And if you're relying on social media, especially for you know running your business, then you have to either protect it or you really could, you know, botch the entire thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean it's a lucrative business, unfortunately. Um and again, it's you know, it's the weakest link philosophy often, you know, they're bad guys are throwing out, you know, a big net and all it takes is is one click. And you know, that's just what they focus in on. Um yeah, I mean it's unfortunate. Um, but just the basics go a long way. I mean, if folks are listening and they're saying how can they improve it, you know, the FBI website, for example, is you know, there's tons, but I'm just picking that one because it's pretty easy. You know, they have uh you know open source, you know, how to how to be a better, uh more cybersecure uh person or identity. Um there's tons of free roos resources, checklists or whatever that they can uh go to and and walk through and uh increase their chances of you know being a target, or decrease, I guess, their chances of being a target, increase their uh protective posture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I agree. And uh Yeah, that's that's really kind of the thing is that uh it's it's become like you know, i i I I think that you know as the sophistication in mitigating um uh scams and things like that has incre like as it has as it's increased, um, so too the sophistication of um of threat actors or hackers or whatever um has increased. Uh and it's sometimes it's almost imperceptible um how attacks start. Uh you know, I I forget there was somebody my wife will probably get be embarrassed by this if she ever listens to these shows. Um but um there there was uh somebody contacted her uh on Facebook Messenger and they had they had looked, I guess maybe at her profile somehow and saw that she had something on marketplace. And uh and basically what they did is they tried to socially engineer her into uh into giving them uh the G code for multifactor. So she had multifactor set up on her accounts. And they they tried to socially engineer her uh to give her that G code so that way they could authenticate in because they wanted to validate her identity before they bought something from her locally. Right? Yeah. And and the that it's kind of it's smarmy, but it's also like the the an average person probably wouldn't uh realize it. And so she she asked me, she's like, This is kinda a little bit weird, this is like this person's asking me for this. And I looked at it, I was like, Don't do that. I was like, That's that's totally a scam. I said, like why there's no reason why they should like you should give them G code uh like to authenticate when there's no there's no Google authentication applications that I d like Validate your personal identity so that way you could sell stuff on Facebook marketplace. It's not really the way it works. But I looked and I was like, dude, those guys, they're ballsy. Because that uh that shouldn't happen. But a a normal, a normal citizen would not recognize that kind of threat because um it just so happens that uh in in the cybersecurity world, social engineering threats and mitigation is one of my specialties. Um and so I I mean I I looked at that and I was like, no, no, no. Like you can't do that. Like you can't manipulate a manipulator. Um so we managed to like not have any fallout from that or any of our accounts hacked or whatever. But you know, like um maybe about four or five years ago. I'm trying to think if it was during COVID or not. Maybe it was. Maybe it was like rate like during 2020. Um somebody was uh skimmed one of my um one of my credit cards and then through a little bit of research, went on and socially engineered a Wells Fargo agent to move money from my savings account to my checking account so that way they could then use the credit card that they skimmed to um to pull it out of an ATM or Western Union to them. And I I that wasn't even I had I had multi-factor authentication on and all their voice uh voice validation stuff. And and still it wasn't me that was the threat, um, it was the Wells Fargo agents. And they they verbally talked to somebody and moved money over into an account that was a compromised account because you know all like savings accounts are like kind of firewalled off. Um and they they scammed the banking institution. But you know, you call the FBI whatever, but it doesn't really matter um in this in the corporate world because they have insurance for that now and they don't really care about trying to track down uh scammers or inc increasing their um their perimeter security. They just let the insurance company deal with it after the fact. So there's almost no recourse other than this long arbitrage process to get your money back because of FDIC and everything.
SPEAKER_01Sure. No, I mean I I have a friend that, you know, a a a co-worker, and this was only like three years ago. And she flew to another country um and gave uh money to a person who apparently was, you know, uh a Nigerian prince that just needed to help. And it's it is uh unfortunate that this stuff still happens this day and age. Um and uh you know it's uh again it almost every incident goes back to a very basic principle. Um you know, again, clicking on clicking on a link that you were sent, you know, answering something like you said through social engineering.
SPEAKER_00You know, uh I I I mean I I agree the the sometimes it's the simplest stuff. I mean it all really comes down to the um the like human behavior, right? I mean it's it's it's it at the end of the day it is a bunch of social engineering, right? Because even even in clicking links like the Get Facebook acts uh like accounts act and whatnot, is like you know, somebody sends you a link because they're I don't know, it's from XYZ knife maker and you you you've accepted their friend's request or not. And that was a masqueraded or a spoofed account. And so you didn't check the authentication on it, like the authority on it. So that's fine. But then you know, they ask you to click a link or whatever and check something out, you click it, and then you you're c you come up with a uh Facebook page that you know you uh you were logged out or something. Well um a lot of people don't understand that like you have to click the logout button um if you're going to uh log out of a social media account um most of the time. And uh you know you type in all of your login information and everything because you don't follow that logical step um of you know maybe this is a little odd and maybe it shouldn't be happening and I probably still logged in. And then you've given that threat actor all of your Facebook information.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh it's it is unfortunate. And there's there's crafty ways, you know, the the complexity of it nowadays is um it makes it hard to know what's happening. You know, the the compounding basic techniques or or simple techniques, and you compound those um and you end up with a very uh hard to understand scenario and uh you know easily fooled.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But you know, it's it's interesting to me in a lot of ways that um uh I I I think that there's a certain level of discernment in in technology um that does aid in the mentality about how to make knives, right? Because you know, at the end at the end of the day, um we're talking about kind of like binary systems, and there's a logic to technology that um can be applied in a rudimentary fashion to knives, like you know, the the uh you know your grind geometry, the mathematics behind it, the steps that are required to be taken to get from a you know a blank canvas of some bar of steel to a final product. And I've always found it I I guess more mechanically intuitive to come from a world where um technology is used uh than I think uh some makers that have to um get themselves in the mindset of procedure and and um and process. Um like that that like the process-oriented nature of technology I think is well suited or well it's it's conditioning people at least to be able to hop into knives and to do some of the um the the more I guess rudimentary um sides of knife making, not necessarily artistic interpretation, but um you know the the the the the bare bones of making a knife.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I mean I agree. Um I'm I'm a very process and you know task-oriented individual to begin with. Um some of that's just my my army. Um some of it's just who I am in in general and in in nature. And I can't tell you how many checklists I've I've created in the in the shop over over time. Um I think now it's all uh kind of in my head um versus written down. But um I'm I'm a believer in that. And so I think it does could do folks well, um, you know, to help them keep track, keep on target, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean I I think that there's uh a difference in your knife output than what I see um some people uh create. And I think it, you know, there's I think there's different tiers of makers that care about different things or focus on different things. Um but like your the way that you kind of like your aesthetic, like what you've established in your in your knife making journey um is one of a lot of uh very clean, um clean geometry and angles and um and fit and finish and whatnot. And like is is that something that you've um you've pushed for from the beginning of knife making, or is that something that has uh evolved with like kind of like your inner eye on on how you see a knife being made?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's a great question. Um I think that f first and uh f I guess I'll start with this, is I I am a knife guy. I I love knives, I love um tactical, you know, black powder coated, very very tactical, get this not beat out of them knives, and I love you know ten thousand dollar, you know, art pieces. I love all knives, I really do. Uh in between. And so as a maker, it has been very challenging for me from the get-go of what direction I want to go. What you know, where I was gonna go with you know, where I am now. This was years ago, you know, where I am now, where where do I want to be, et cetera, et cetera. And I will tell you, I kind of fell in on um what I liked to make was clean. You know, I want it clean, I want it crisp, I want it um simple, typically very simple. I want it um uh curved, you know, uh light curved, you know. I don't I don't want a bunch of you know things going on. I do like it the simpler it is, the the the more I like it. Now um I'm not saying every model I have is like that. I'm not saying every um every finish I have is like that, you know, I I do kind of do a wide range, and that's that has been a challenge for me as a maker is that because I like all different types of knives, it it has been hard for me to narrow in on an aesthetic. So I will say that um, and I don't by any means want to sound conceited here, um, you know, but the people that come by the table or people that I talk with or friends, etc., other makers, that is a consistent theme. Um, you know, the the like very clean um knives. Um, and so I have tried to actually embrace that a little bit more the past, you know, year or two because that's kind of it just happened naturally for me. And then as other more and more other makers said the same thing, I I've kind of tried to embrace that. Um, I do like that. I mean, I'm not saying I don't like it, but it it actually has helped me kind of land on a style that I can call my own and that others recognize as mine. And I would tell you that um, you know, Chressler is probably like the number one style that I have on the shelf that that I try to, you know, as I'm making knives, I look up every once in a while and um shoot to that level of uh, you know, crispiness, if you will. So that that's kind of where I'm coming from with design and style and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Yeah, that makes sense. But you know, like the the way that everybody the way that everybody thinks of clean um is different, right? I mean, I know like uh if if you take uh some of the A ABS Mastersmiths, for instance, um their their interpretation of that uh the Bill Moran style of knives and where where everything is at today is a little bit different, but very unique in the ABS vein of of knife making. And they and they you know grade you or judge you off of that. And uh there's a little bit more variability when you look at like um guild members. Uh you know, you can you can make a clean knife, uh but the the stylization um varies from maker to maker. Like uh Paul Liebetard is not the same as Edmund Davidson, it's not the same as uh Gary Langley or Todd Begg or you know any any other um uh you know top top knife maker inside of that organization. And there's no really no different uh when you look in the uh the knife making world holistically. I mean, everything that um uh Smith does with uh with Montana Knife Company, uh all of those have their own aesthetic, but it's very clean based on kind of the progression of his thought and his aesthetic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I mean this has this has been a big struggle for me um over the years. And um I don't know. I think the matter of fact, you know, I went to Blade Show West um I guess about a month ago now, and um you know, I was talking to a buddy and I was telling him this. I was like, you know, I still I still have a problem of what what is my style, what is my um, you know, picking my knife out from a a line of others. And you know, he's like, no, I I I definitely can. And um, you know, here's why. And I again it goes back to the you know, the uh clean and simple kind of aesthetic. Um I like I I also like the small details. I I don't know how to quite explain it, um but I'm big into small details. So things that what I enjoy walking through, you know, Blade True Atlanta, I I enjoy walking through and picking up the knives because I can see the details I can't see from an Instagram picture. Um and I like to have to pick up the knife to see all of the details. So um, for example, a lot of the pins I do now, not they won't always be, but uh pretty much the models I'm making forward. Um, you know, they're like one sixteenth pins, you know, small details, so small champers and things like that that you really have to pick it up. I mean, the even the liners, a lot of times if you're holding it further than an arm's length away, some of the liners you can't even tell they're in there because that's very small, you know, hard to notice detail, but that detail is there. And uh, you know, I don't I don't know what you call that. I don't know, but that's as I progress, that's where I I lean towards my personal liking.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I mean, there is there is an elegance to um to fine details. And, you know, I I I mean I I notice that in a lot of um things that are um I'm trying to encapsulate this idea. Uh so you take old Sheffield uh slip joints and cutlery, right? Um and there there are certain uh aesthetic decisions that um a a master colour what would um put in a knife um that maybe at face value it wouldn't seem like very much, but it just adds to the ambiance of like that really wasn't necessary, but you put it in and it just makes it makes sense to my eye. Like it it it flows well or whatever. Um it's the same reason why people do you know file work or they put jimping on or they contour their handles a certain way or their handle material choices. Um all of that um kind of evolves into an aesthetic. And that's you know, that's something that um I have actually enjoyed about following you on social media is I I can't say that there's a specific knife that I uh put my finger on and say that that's yours, right? But I can definitely tell from the um from the the blade finish, from the pin placement, from the handle material and general design where um like that that they're yours, right? There's certain types of um clean work that are um that are and and the that aesthetic that are um that establish a maker or identify them. And I've always been able to you know pick your knife out from a fairly um large lineup and say, I I know exactly who that is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I certainly appreciate that. Um you know, I look forward to I look forward to trying different things. I look forward to like I told you, uh we're building a house now. Um and things have kind of changed from years ago before the big you know cost and building materials, my goodness. Um, you know, but uh we're building a house right now. Uh again, we're calling this this place a home, uh, hopefully for long term. Part of that is a shop. I'm gonna have a detached shop for the first time um, you know, having that uh ever. And so it's not huge. I mean, it's I think it's about 600 square foot, not including the storage space up above. Um, so it's still pretty small uh for one person. Um but you know, I'm looking forward to getting in there. I'm looking forward to being able to get some equipment that I haven't really been able to do um before. Um and some of that uh may hopefully, you know, lend to additional things that I can I can do with the knives in the shop. Um but uh yeah, time will tell. I mean with the cost of things, uh you know, I had to put a couple of the shop upgrades on hold and all the money's going towards the shop itself versus I was hoping to move in and be able to get equipment, but that'll be delayed, but in due time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um well I I think that there's a a level of freedom in being able to detach, um detach yourself from the style of knife, like the profile of knife, and and be able to apply an a recognizable aesthetic to any type of knife uh that you do. Like for instance, um I've always admired your interpretation of the Tony Bozzulu spear fixed blade. Um and you mix it up in a lot of ways that I'm like, dude, this is a totally fresh, um, fresh look and feel to a knife that um not that many people have really touched. Um if I mean if you think about it, Tony and Reese uh would make it and a few of their uh fairly uh close friends and associates, but it's not a pattern that is um that's replicated across a large portion of the industry. But I I've always liked the slip joint um Zulu spear, and I've liked the uh making the uh the fixed blade version, and yours takes it to a different level because uh you you really have like a production quality of fit and finish to it. And I mean that in a good way with fixed blades because it looks near perfect. And with the you know, the finishes that you're putting on the blade and the handle material choices and um uh and things like that, I think that it it it um it re-imagines a a s a quasi-traditional pattern. Um and you're really not limited to you know a hunting knife or a tactical knife or whatever. You can kind of play in a lot of different profile or uh pattern mediums because you've established yourself as uh somebody who has a a finish, a fit and finish aesthetic over a particular type of um pattern um uh I guess uh loyalty, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01No, absolutely. I uh man, I love that. I love that uh profile. I love that knife. And I think that a lot of my words, no one else's, you know, I think a lot of those designs, his designs are very simple. Um, and I've always liked it simple. Um I I I the designs, makers, etc. The greats that really stand out to me are the ones that have fairly simple designs. Um but obviously you know, phenomenal fit and finish. And um that's those are the knives I've I've bought over the years and put on the shelf, and I look up at them when I'm when I'm making I mean, I and I'm saying this in in a literal sense. Um, you know, I put them on the shelf and I'm like, hey, is this up to this person's quality? And often it's not not yet, but you know, that's that's why it's there. Um but I I I do one, I appreciate what you're saying, and and two, that that is it's good to hear because that's you know, some of that's what I've been going for. Um I think some of uh some of my story or projection is um some of those classic simple designs with modern um modern technology, whether that's handle materials or steel or finish or something to that effect, um, I think is uh is another kind of angle or path that I often like to go down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that makes sense. Um I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the I don't I I I don't know what you what what your naming is, but the uh um I it's it's the it is it the attention getters, like the pen um pokey pokey thigs, like uh what what are Yeah, yeah, pokey pokey. Yeah, so um what I'm I'm interested to know like what the processes for these. Do you get them like uh machined out um for for those push push daggers or push uh um implements and whatnot? Like kind of what w what got you started going down that route?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh it's a great question. Um it's uh it was honestly not a great Story. Um my son did archery for a little while. He took archery lessons. I mean, it was like a group lesson, like an event, you know, every Saturday. And there was a um a broadhead or arrow tip on the ground. And um, I picked it up, you know, and uh held it in my hand. And I was thinking, I was like, man, this would be cool little self-defense tool if it only had a handle on it. You know, I gave the arrowhead back, whatever at the front desk, and came home and I ordered some arrowheads and it really just took off from there. And I mean, um, you know, it is, yes, uh kind of a self-defense tool. Uh that was the the purpose of it. Um small, something very small. And you know, I kind of have two different flavors, if you will, one one with kind of like a a f a full handle, um, straight full handle, and then the other in a couple of different variations, but kind of you know, the T-shape, um push dagger type type of handle. And um, they are arrowheads. Uh they are um they screw in and um you know they're uh they're nothing more than that. The cool thing is is that they're interchangeable. You know, you put the um the um the the plug in there, right? And then, you know, the the arrow tip changes in and out. So you can literally buy them at home if you wanted a different type of style and and change it. Um and then people just loved them and it's something that's cheap. Like I because people loved them, I um I cranked out a handful and I took them to Blake Joe West and people loved them. I mean, they're there's something cheap for the table, inexpensive, I should say, for the table that that if folks just kind of want to want to buy something that they're not spending a couple hundred bucks on a on a knife, but something that um the common trend, quite honestly, is is uh this is something my my wife or daughter can put in her purse. That's like um not to sound sexist, it's just that was like nine out of ten people. That's what their their thought was behind it. Um and uh yeah, I just kept doing it because people loved it.
SPEAKER_00Um I I've gotten the same kind of thing with my smaller, daintier knives, I guess you call it. Um, you know, people would pick them up and say, oh, that's a ladies' knife. And I I've I've never I I mean I I I guess I understand because the the industry breeds large knives, and large knives apparently are the the thing right now. But um I've never found in all the years that I've done hunting or survival type of stuff, like anything where I've been out outdoors doing stuff um that a a large knife is inherently more um beneficial to me than a small knife. And in fact, all of the hunting and fishing and uh outdoor stuff I've done, there's very few scenarios where I need something big, um, and it's mostly for kindling and uh brush clearing and whatnot. But I've like a a small knife is almost indispensable to me, especially when cleaning game and whatnot. So I mean I don't really think um I don't think that the um utilitarianism of your of your you know push push sticks or pokey uh pokies, you know. Uh do you have a specific like model like name for them? Like is you have like a uh different different um different model models and whatnot?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um the first year I made them, um the first year I went to Blade Show, Texas, driving down from Colorado Springs. Um the first year I went there, I said people made the recommendation to me, oh, you know, you your first show, uh here's a few recommendations, whatever. And one of the recommendations was, hey, make a little make something small for your table too, right? Like have your have your knives, of course, um, but have one or two small things. Um that way if you have some supporter out there that wants to walk away with something, they you know, that it's something that they can. So I took that to heart. And because I had such an overwhelming um positive response to these things, I called them attention getters. Um, obviously a play on words, uh, but it did have two meanings. One, you know, you could definitely use it to get someone's attention. And for the table, it was something to grab someone's attention to my items on the table. So the long-handled ones with the tip, um, they were attention getters. Um, and then when I went to a push dagger style, the first design I had was kind of like a golf tee shape. So I named it golf tea. Um again, somewhat of a play on words to uh, you know, not be blatant, hey, these are get off me type tools. Um, and so just just a little bit of play on words there. So attention getter and golf tea.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's great. But you know, like um the like the the utility of it, I I mean, I I could see carrying those in a lot of different scenarios. And I I dude, I love the modularity of being able to like you know have different tips. So basically what you're selling um is not is not necessarily the tip, it's the it's the base so that way other people can put their stuff on, which you know if you ever get into like hot water in social media context or whatever, um, you can always sell the sell the base without the tip, and then it's not actually a you know, quote unquote weapon. Um it's just the the holding device for the tips that they can then source wherever they want to. And that that opens up that to a broad range of um of possibilities. You know, you could you could have all sorts of modularity to the to the the the poking or cutting edge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I uh that's a great point. You know, recently I had a run of um of three fixed style. So I have one that's an actual push dagger, I have one that is a um a divot tool, an actual divot tool end, and um, and one that's a bottle opener end. I've only done a few of them so far, um, but they're like, you know, full tang fixed, I don't know, call just call them, you know, fixed blade style. Um and uh I I like them. Um just haven't done many of them yet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's cool. Um I've always I've always liked like the uh oyster shucker um too, but I've I've not made them mostly because I there's a few guys uh that that make them out there, you being one of them. Um but I I really don't have any real practical experience in in shucking oysters because I just you know I'm not gonna eat oysters in Texas when they especially when they come from the Gulf. Um and so I'm just not interested. So I mean I I like to try to make stuff that I have some practical knowledge over. And you know, hunting and skinning knives and stuff like that are is more what I I'm used to just because I know that I can test it and uh test it effectively. Like my scalpels. Um I I skinned almost an entire uh six six and a half foot alligator uh this summer with one of my scalpels. I mean, I used I used some other um other knives to get uh through some of the plating, but by and large, most of the skinning was done on a scalpel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, and I heard that story on one of your other podcasts. It's a pretty cool story. Um scalping a gator. Um but you know, going going back to like why I got started baking knives or why you know the oyster knife itself, uh when I first started, I said, gee, if if you know, I can make an oyster knife. I mean, and when you think about it, an oyster knife cuts into a rock. It cuts a rock, you know, a shell. And uh it goes through the abuse of it's always consistently wet, it's with salt water at that, right? And you know, cutting a rock in salt water and people leave that thing um, you know, often without, you know, washing it in a drawer or something like that, and you know, uh harsh conditions in my words. I said, if I can make an oyster knife withstand the abuse uh an oyster knife goes through, I feel like you can make about just any any type of knife. Um, and again, I'm generalizing, but um, you know, it it it did. I had one, I had a guy reach out to me, it was last year, and he bought one of my early works and he wa worked at an oyster bar. He was uh, I I don't know what what you call them. Um and I actually I think he was like one of the owners anyway. So he goes, Hey, Neil, you know, I know you have a lifetime, a maker's lifetime warranty, and you know, my my knife is kind of um, you know, it's really getting worn down here. And I said, Okay, well, you know, how many oysters have you opened up with it? And he's like, Oh, thousands, right? Thousands of oysters. I'm like, well, dude, if you've opened thousands of oysters, um you you're gonna see some wear and tear. It's just natural, you know, it's a that that's natural wear and tear. Thousands of oysters, you know, again, it's like cutting a rock. I said, Well, I'll tell you what, look, send it back to me uh, and I'll um I'll see if I can't spruce it up. I'll see, you know, if it's all else fails, you know, I'll replace it. And um, which is a very gen, in my opinion, very generous, you know, and thing. That's just that's my that's my philosophy. And so he sends this thing back, and I'm thinking it's gonna be looks like it, you know, I'm thinking it's gonna be like World War II beach front, like worn out, you know. No, I mean the thing is great. I tell you, it the thing looked phenomenal for opening thousands of oysters. And what I had was uh I had a burlap makarta on it. And you know, after again, thousands of oysters, you know, and they probably have those texture grips on or gloves on, and and you know, burlap micarta is gonna get a wear on it, you know, and fibers start being exposed, etc. And that's what it was. And um, you know, I I was very I was very happy to receive it back like that because if it if it held up with that many oysters, um it, you know, in my eyes, uh extreme success of the, you know, the construction of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, because even even in the context of making like hunting and skinning knives, the most that I really expect out of a like any given blade that I make is uh to be able to skin uh to to skin and parts out um up to about three uh three reasonably sized white-tailed deer. Um I think that that's kind of the litmus test uh without needing any more than maybe a blade strop. If if I can if I can uh make a blade that has the uh like good geometry, that you know there's no hot spots on the handle and it can uh skin out and and uh quarter uh up to three deer without needing to be touched up too much, uh that to me uh is a sign of success. Because, you know, there's not uh there's not a lot of situations other than like, you know, Texas has MLD uh where they get you know browsing studies done and maybe they have to kill, you know, twenty, thirty deer on a big property or whatever a year, sometimes more, sometimes less. There there's really not a lot of uh commercial um uh skinning and quartering and stuff like that. So um, you know, a few a few medium to large size uh wild game um animals, that that's kind of what I look for. But thousands of oysters, man, that's uh that's it's pretty rad to be able to have that level of abuse to a knife and to have the handle fail before the steel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. And I and you know, uh it wasn't even a failure. I mean, it was just it was just wear, you know, the the Makarta was just starting to have some fibers break loose. Because I typically I'll I I typically buff my handles most of my stuff um you know before uh before I sent it out. And um yeah, some of the some of the burlap fibers were just starting to come, you know, fray loose. And uh yeah, I was pretty happy. But I will say, like, I think it's important that you know, you you you just mentioned a standard. Um, like hey, your standard is three three year, whatever that is. I think that's important for a maker to have a standard. I I'm not sure that what the standard is, uh I think that's less important that the maker has some sort of standard, if if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. I mean, and and the the standards change depending on the use too, um, I think. Now, it's it's difficult in the tactical world, like making tactic tactical or tactical things, because there's not a lot of scenarios where you're gonna get real world um like practical experience on how well something works. And when you do have to use it, it's usually like life or death. But um you can take you can take um um relational type of uh uh wear tests and things like that, and in general, uh kind of guide yourself on like you know, heat treat ergonomics and stuff. But that's something that um in like uh you know, not not military, but have grown grown up and and been around that world an awful lot, um the the tactical and tac- tactical type of um uh culture uh to me is a frustrating one because um there's there's obviously an aesthetic uh to like uh the the tactical type of knife. Um but and the and the the customer base is definitely there and dedicated towards buying it. But it's really uh it's to me it's really difficult to navigate those waters because um I've always been a practical guy. So I you know I want my knives to be used um and be useful, but that's just one way that I can't really, you know, I can't test them and I also don't see them being used actively unless it's like EDC. So I mean everybody's like opening boxes and stuff, and it's like, well, at that point, one blade is really not um a lot better than the other, and you could just buy like a like a uh small box cutter and be more effective in that than spending you know hundreds of dollars on a knife. So sometimes I've talked myself out of sales because I'm like, uh, I don't really know if this is something that you need based on the fact that you just order a bunch of stuff from Amazon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I agree. And earlier today when I was trying to uh kind of catch up on some of your podcasts, you you had the the micro um apologies if I get the name wrong, but the micropod where you talked about your size, the the size of the knives that you do and the the purpose of them. And I I am very I mean it's literally what I uh you know, same philosophy that I have. I I I don't have a knife that's um bigger than like seven and a quarter inches. And you know, I'm very um I while I want the knife to be used and used hard and heavily, um they're you know, really kind of meant for utility tasks, whether you you use it to skin a deer. Um I've had some people do that, or you know, uh Amazon package killers. That's what I call, you know, I I would I would put a gamble or I will gamble or put a bet on that the average person opens a heck of a lot more Amazon packages than they do skinning deer. It's just call me crazy. Um, but I certainly do, you know what I mean? Like I tear them packages up, um, but I I I don't really skin a deer. So uh utility, um, I'm a big believer in that. Um like you, I I think that you only need um, you know, an inch or two really for most tasks. And uh and that's what I enjoy, and so that's what I do, that's what I focused on. I agree with your your kind of comments about the tactical. Um I've got a couple of tactical designs, but I've never really taken them through um all the way. But uh I tell you too, like in tactical scenarios, you want something that's can kind of take that abuse. And I not to speak for you, but uh again, I th I think we do have a lot of similar styles um in fit finish and that sort of thing, and that I, you know, while my knives could certainly be used in any of the scenarios, uh, you know, I think the average person that's buying my knife is not gonna want to put it through that um type of abuse, whether it could take it or not, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I've also, you know, in in the whole utility type of uh realm of things, it's I've also struggled over the years with pricing things because you know there's a difference between um a maker valuing their time and their expertise and you know, and paying for the equipment and whatnot it takes to make a certain type of product, and then being able to uh sell it to a uh customer at that price, right? Um so you know uh on average, um my knives range from like 325 to let's just say eight, eight, eight fifty, eight seventy-five maybe. Um which is pretty broad, but there there are def there are things that affect price for me um more in the materials and things, so like the rarity of of you know mammoth or good stag or um hard to find desert ironwood burl or things like that, right? If if the the rarer it is and the harder it is for me to replace, obviously the price is a little bit higher. But um like uh that that is all based on material and and my time. Um but again, like kind of like to the point I'm making is uh sometimes it's difficult for me to um to want to like really push a knife that's like three, four, five hundred dollars uh because if it is just for pure utility, there's lots of tools out there that um are um just as good at cutting, maybe just not as pretty or interesting. And I have to leverage that, I guess, the the moral or ethical decision to sell to a customer or really try to um you know manipulate or push their buttons into buying something uh simply um simply because I made it. And I I guess that's kind of like the um a difficult spot to be in. Uh because I don't I definitely don't undercharge for a lot of my knives. I don't feel like I overcharge, but you know, in that sweet spot where it makes it worth my time, it can be um a little bit difficult to uh n for some people to necessitate it. Um especially in the in the tactical world. Like I have a few knives that are um really really kind of geared towards um um tactical carry and being able to uh be utilized overseas. But a lot of service uh members like cannot afford a four or five hundred dollar knife. Um one because it doesn't, you know, because it has to take a lot of abuse. And if it's real expensive, like I had a buddy um who is um uh out of country and he lost like a you know three, three, four hundred dollar knife, and it it kind of pissed him off because it was one of his favorite dives and um and he lost it on uh on private detail. And uh, you know, it's like he can't he can't just easily replace knives like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's uh definitely a great point. I think that's definitely uh the mindset of a lot of folks. Um, you know, there's a lot of people in the army, you know, that are into knives. Um but uh even if they do spend that kind of uh dollar amount on them for most tasks, they're gonna take their less expensive one out there just in case they do lose it or um need it in some sort of scenario where they use the knife knowing that it could get damaged their, you know, the that that dollar amount is isn't, you know, impacted um or isn't as much of an impact on their, you know, wallet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean the um something about hunting, and this is kind of the one of the reasons why I do hunting and skinning sets, is I I've always felt that there is kind of a this might sound weird, but kind of like a spiritual connectedness that you have when you harvest your own game, right? And because of that, it's somewhat of a ritual. Um, you know, you you go out and it's a lot of like um mental preparedness, it's a lot of physical preparedness. You go out and and you know, hunt game, and if you're if you're lucky enough to shoot and kill something, um, then dressing your game is also something that should, you know, kind of be done with the level of reverence. Um and um because of that I've always thought that, you know, um having a nicer like hunting set or hunting knife is is a good companion because it it symbolizes reliability, it symbolizes um um uh beauty in a in a uh otherwise pretty pretty ugly, uh pretty um messy process of harvesting your own game, right? And it's uh so I I've I thought at least that the at the very least that I could do is make a really nice looking um hunter or skinner so that way when you're taking it out, you have that exper the the whole experience where um you know you harvesting game and hunting or whatever means something to you because you have the right tools, you're at the at the right time, um, and you harvested your um your game in a you know a respectful and reverent manner. Um so to me it seems worth it to have something like that, you even though you could use a box cutter or a pocket knife or whatever to skin the same uh game. It's not maybe as ritualistic or uh reminiscent of that place of respect that I think hunting should take.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, so I I fish, I don't hunt. I've I've hunted once, I think, um, except for when I was a little kid. But uh I I have a buddy who's you know big deer hunter, and um I made a knife for him years ago. And to your point, you know, each well not each year, but just about each year, you know, when he when he gets a big buck or something like that, he'll send me a picture, right? And he'll say, you know, the knife, you know, did its job again or something or something to that effect. And so I do think that there's a lot of truth in what you're saying, that um for some folks there's uh kind of a ceremonial type um representation there to to the knife to that, you know, primal hunting victory, if you will.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I mean it and then I I uh I uh attribute that same um mentality towards fishing too. Like um I've I've I don't think I've ever really been in a scenario with fishing where uh apart from like catfishing and using jug lines and stuff, um, where the the take home has been um easier than like the effort put forth. Like uh, you know, there's lots of fishing trips where you know maybe you get skunked or maybe you have a uh you know a a decent haul and uh and being able to clean those things out afterwards um is is it's not the that's not the fun part. It's the same way like a bird bird hunters, you know, you go out and hunt dove or you hunt dove with dove with a group or duck. Like you gotta you yeah, you can kill those things and have fun shooting them out of the sky or whatever, but then you have to pluck them or you have to uh breast them out or things like that. And uh you want to have something that holds up. Um and it's it's it's no different than fishing, I don't think. Like it reliability um and efficiency is a big deal. And if you constantly having to like sharpen that thing, uh it it makes it it makes it less um I guess euphoric in some ways of the catch um if you just have to like you know saw through things and you can't really do a good job of cleaning out game either.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's I think an age-old um dilemma for certain knife makers, you know, you want it both um beautiful and functional. So yeah, it's a it can be a tough one depending on you know what type of maker you are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, um kind of uh on on that that note, um I I think that in addition to your knife aesthetic, um, I'm actually really interested in your sh leatherwork aesthetic and and your your sheath making aesthetic because it seems to me that as as pretty as your knives are, you also have an equally good looking sheath. Like, was it was it your goal when you started making knives uh to to also represent that same kind of um uh tenacity and the same kind of aesthetic uh that you have in your knives inside of your your leather work and whatnot?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm glad this came up, actually. So leather work has been uh a huge part of my um you know knife making career. So, you know, a couple years in, um, again, was still primarily focused on the oyster knives. So at the fairly, you know, fairly beginning of the career, knife making career, if you will. Um it's still just a side thing, by the way. Um, you know, I kept having this dilemma of my sheaths weren't as nice as the in my eyes, that the as the knives as the knives were, um, and I I wanted that to be an equal balance. So, you know, 50-50 split. Um, and it became uh it took a lot of my time. I just like barreled down and really tried to improve improve my teeth game. And um through that process, um I became a custom sheath maker for like, I don't know, two, three years. And um it got to the point where I was doing way more sheath work, custom sheaths, than I was knives. And um it got to the point where uh that was kind of like depressing me, you know. I wanted to make knives, I wanted to be known as a knife maker versus a teeth maker. And um, you know, I just I had this I had to stop it. And through that process is kind of where, you know, where I I learned my leather skills and where I got a lot of leather time under my belt. And um, yeah, it's been it's been very important to me that the sheath is equal to the knife. And I like leather work and you know, that was part of it. And um, I had some leather uh lines, like model type things out there that uh you know, again, was a large part um of the trajectory of of where I've come from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I I cannot say that I followed that same path. I like slowly my sheath making has become uh become better. Um, but like even my wife was like, you know, you make a really good knife, but your sheaths suck. And I'm like, well, like like you're right. Like, I mean, uh I was I did it took me a little while. I was like, you know what? That's that's kind of a crappy thing to say. And she's like, but you know, you like my job is to be honest with you uh in this thing, not uh not like pad your ego. And I was like, it took me just a minute, and I but she's right. Um I spent way more effort working on the knife and cobbled together a sheath. Now, like don't get me wrong, like my sheaths, I always did saddle stitches, they were also adhesed together with contact uh cement. Um they were not going anywhere. Like they were they were robust things, but they were they were clunky. Um the stitching wasn't always the the most accurate, the finish work wasn't the greatest. Um I hate it, like I I I'm not I I don't treat leather work in the same regard as knives, and I guess uh that's why to some extent I've I've uh uh contracted out for some of that. But there is a portion of me that's like I should be good at that. Like it it like the the same m mentality of the vocation of knives should translate to leather work. Um I just don't I don't really have the room, I guess, to to has like have an an equally efficient and productive uh workspace for leather as I do for knives. And because of that, I don't I I mean I think the leather suffers to a certain extent. But uh, you know, I I even see that uh fairly high up in the echelon of knife makers that if they don't contract out um and they uh they're not good leather makers, that the the the pants for the suit just don't match. And that's something that I think that everybody should at least think about is um like what what story are you telling with your knife, and then how does your sheath either um promote that and and uh accompany it or how does it detract from it? Because I think that a customer looks at the knife and they look at the knife and it's great, but they're sold on the sheath. And if those two things marry well together, uh then it makes it a value proposition that is sometimes hard to turn down for a customer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I totally agree. Um, I have spent a lot of time with this, um, you know, discussions with other makers on this topic, um, again, because um, you know, there was a point in time where I was doing nothing but custom sheath work. And um I had a lot of knives come through. I mean, I saw a lot of makers um, you know, work in my hand and and some of those experiences have changed me as a maker. Um and I I one, I don't think there's any harm in having someone else do it. I I mean it's just like anything else. I I'm a believer in um if there is a process um in making that for whatever reason you just absolutely hate or you just dislike or maybe it makes you maybe it takes you too long. I I I'm the type of guy, like I I don't see any harm at all in contracting it, like you said, or or you know, um going with uh outsource, you know, outsourcing that work. Um again, because me it for me it hasn't ever been the primary job, you know, my hasn't been my um my primary job, like a lot of that was time based, you know what I mean, for um certain things. So yeah, I mean it it it it that journey, that sheath making, leather working, matching the knife style and quality has, you know, it has consumed me for for for years. So it's near and dear to my heart, like that topic, that subject itself. And it's kind of funny um, you know, when I'm at shows because they're like, oh, you did the sheath too? Oh, you know, and it it can make a difference. Uh well, I'll tell you, it has made a difference for me in a in a lot of scenarios. I mean, didn't I'm not telling you sold more knives. I'm just telling you it did make it did get noticed, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, um I I think that my that my difficulty um comes in two forms. If I have to be like analytical about kind of my like the things that I don't like or the things that I don't feel are intuitive to me. One is blocking out the leather. Um so I mean any any like cutting cutting angles or things, I always feel like I botched that up and then I have to spend forever trying to sand it or whatever, and it's kind of like um well I'm basically just grinding a sheath instead of uh instead of cutting it out correctly. Um and I don't I don't have like a clicker or anything like that. And I like the there's too much there's too much variability in patterns and sizes and whatnot for me to really do that. But the other is um the fin some finishing techniques, you know, like at what what time is appropriate to uh bevel your edges and to burnish them and and things like that. And um I don't know. Like I it's something that I'd like to get better at, um, but uh there's always been this uh lack of uh efficiency or lack of time where I'm like I I I just uh rather uh said them out. But something that's uh increased my um efficiency or kind of like worked out some of those problems is that I'm actually I'm not too bad at uh designing things out digitally, and I have a uh uh a diode laser um table that I can cut things out on. So what I've chosen to do in some scenarios is actually design everything, get all the specs right, and then burn the leather um profiles out, and maybe even the stitching holes and whatnot, and um uh um that's uh uh that that's made it easier, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, I heard you mention that before. And um I I don't have a laser yet. Um you know, uh I've seen other people do it and ha and have a lot of success, so that's cool to to hear that you've had um success doing it. If what I recommend for people that um, you know, cut the same shape over and over again um is that I would actually so so if I had to do it and I had the same sheath time and time again, but I still wanted to do some of it myself versus fully contracted hours. Um I I would buy have a uh clicker die made, but I would send that to some of the a lot of the leather shops, like the bigger name ones. I don't know if Weaver does it, but like Zach White, for example, he's in North Carolina. Like you send him the clicker die, and then you just call him up and say, hey, I need 25, you know, seven to eight ounces of uh dye number one, right? And and Hope cut them out and um he charges you for, you know, a little bit for the time, a little bit for the leather, obviously, and and he ships them to you. And I will tell you, if I made the same pattern over and over and over again, um, to me that's the most efficient way to do it. It it it arrives, it's already cut. Um you know, he's got all the equipment there that that does it, and then you just, you know, you put it together, sew it, et cetera, um, and send it off. But uh that to me, I I haven't done that, but to me, um, that is probably the most efficient way to do it if you kind of wanted to split it down the middle. Because you could still do tooling that way too, right? Like if you wanted to put your stamp on it, if you wanted to put your um tooling on it or some sort of whatever, whatever the scenario is, you know, you still have uh the flexibility to do it that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, because um, well, uh punching holes, I think, is probably also kind of a pain, like to get it uh like um exactly centered the way you want to and to not mess up or mar your um your leather. Um there's just so many like there's so many finer point like points to the technique of leather work that um you know like uh doing natural um leather finish and everything like that versus dyeing it. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've had uh like uh natural leather, like I started there and and it stained it for some reason or another because of you know some something oil or dirt or whatever. And the only way is to go with a black dye job to, you know, kind of erase that um that thing.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. I so I, you know, for better or worse, like I've helped people with their leather work. Um, you know, answer questions. I'm an open book, um, and I spend a lot of time talking with people back and forth about m my tips and techniques, etc. And I will tell you, Aaron, that is probably the number one. Um if not number one, definitely number two. But if not the first thing, you know, I recommend is like, hey, if they're gonna, if you're gonna dye your leather, um, you know, and do any amount other than like one, then buy dyed leather. Um I don't know to I I don't want to sound condescending when I say that, but I will tell you buying that dyed leather um is the biggest jump in look, in my opinion, the biggest uh improvement in overall appearance that you can have because it is so hard to evenly dye leather um by hand. Um again, you know, I'm there are people out there that do a great job. There are there are um there are techniques, you know, applying oil or water to it ahead of time, which will help you get an even dye. But I'm telling you, in my opinion, the number one way to make a huge uh improvement of magnitude with appearance of your sheath is starting with good pre-dyed leather. Um and from there, there's still a lot of you know ways to improve, but that's like a huge jump right there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I uh I I think I forget who it is on weaver, uh weaver leather craft or whatever, um uh got me kind of into this uh dip dye um process. But you know, it goes you know, you go through a lot of dye that way. Um and I uh I I I agree. There's there's been some uh some like l Latigo or whatever uh sides that I've bought that are black, um and I've used them for everything. But I think that I I don't know why the finish uh like the finishing technique of that is uh better uh than than me doing in-house dyeing, but I would agree um for for general colors, like not like real crazy stuff, um I would just buy dyed leather too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean good leather isn't cheap. Yeah, it really isn't. And um, you know, um I don't know. I just that that's what made a huge difference to me. It was one of those, you know, like when you're as a maker, there's certain things where you do this, whether it's a process change or a materials change or a tool change or whatever it is, and then you're like, oh my gosh, why did I not do that years ago? Well, for me, that was one of them. You know, that was one of one of the things I was like, why did I not do why have I been trying to dye leather all this time? And anyway, so I I like to share that with folks. Um, like to encourage folks to to start with good pre-dyed leather, um, you know, from the get-go. If they're gonna be doing anything, you know, uh any amount of work making their own sheets.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I totally agree. Um, I'd like to talk a little bit about um about the guild and you going through the um uh the process for that. What what made you decide um to pull the trigger on get uh having your knives inspected and getting into the knife makers guild?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um oh man. Um vehement knives. Um do you know them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Matt Martin and Jenna.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, thank you. Yeah, um Matt, I I'm sorry, I apologize, I could not think of his name. Um Matt, he so at Blaine Show, Texas two years ago. Yeah, I think two years ago, he stopped by. It was it was like closing time, and um there was pretty much nobody left in the in the place except makers kind of still milling around and um talking with one another. And um they were coming by and um he stopped and we spoke for a long time and he said um hey, you wanna have you thought about joining the guild and this and that? And so I never had um given it much thought. And um anyway, so I looked into it and uh I mean here we are, and um I you know still need to uh present. Unfortunately, I wasn't able I won't be able to make Texas this year. Um just kind of coincidentally that the date change did uh you know, I just can't do it now. And um, I will be at Atlanta, so I will have uh my knives ready for Atlanta uh for voting status. Um and then also, you know, I'm part of the North Carolina Custom Knife Makers Guild. So um I I'm a believer in the guilds, um, and I I think they are great resources. I think they are are are great ways to go for for new and veteran knife makers alike. But yeah, that's where I stand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um what uh uh uh what do you think about the um the inspection process and everything? Um and and uh did it meet your expectations with kind of what the like your perception of the guild and everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. Um you know, I was open to to whatever uh came my way. Um you know the feedback I think is uh critical for improvement. I I think it's necessary and for improvement. Improvement, I think it's um not even if you don't do anything with that information, I think that it's like you were saying earlier, like, you know, your wife is not gonna just blow smoke, right? Like it's part of it is for her to be honest. And I so I think an organization, whatever that is, or even if it's just a friend or a wife or whatever, like someone's gotta be honest with you about, you know, work. And so going through the inspection process, um I'm not gonna lie, like I knew that uh there were probably at least one or two things that um obviously you did the inspection or part of it. So, you know, I but I knew that there were gonna be a few things that were going to be said. Um but that even knowing that, it is it is good to hear it, right? Like it's good that okay, my assumptions or you know, my viewpoint is in alignment with other experienced makers um uh uh based on this factor or based on this reason. So uh no, I mean I think it was great. I think um uh I would again I'd I'd recommend it to anyone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's encouraging because um I I think that in the past the um the guild has gotten a reputation for uh gatekeeping and drama. Um and you know, I'm a I'm a voting member. Um I've I've uh invested a lot in trying to uh help the the guild usher in like the technological age, like having a modern website and you know a uh up-to-date database and whatnot. And there's um there's a few of us that are uh very interested in and making the guild more transparent, um especially with uh with the way that um the guild was perceived versus the way that um it is now, right? But um kind of to that point, uh there's there there are definitely comments that I've received when I was going through the inspection process and everything that I had to sit and think a little while about because I'm definitely not a just you know uh like unsolicited advice, just tell me um tell me how my knife should be. I'm more interested in does does this meet the specifications for inspection? And uh if you have any advice, then I'll I'll accept that. Um But I I think that's important because uh so many um so many uh knife makers judge or are critical of other knife makers because of the aesthetic choices that they make. Um and it's like for instance, I don't I don't do a lot of tapered tang work. Um I've been able to skeletonize um handles and and distribute out weight uh to the point where I I think that probably uh taper tanks are a little bit um marginal, um marginal uh balance or or decrease in weight uh for me. Um but I mean I'm also dealing with like smaller knives. Uh but um I'm actually talking uh to a buddy about testing those theories out and doing a little bit more um extensive research into um taper tanks versus skeletonization and and so on and so forth to see what the balance factors are like and uh what the weight reduction is like and um whether it's down to you know grams or tens of grams or you know, kind of what that looks like. But you know, I mean, suffice it to say is that um I think I I think that uh when I wanted to join the guild, it was to get validation because I'd been a uh kind of like the hermit knife maker, just in my shop doing my own thing, watching videos, reading books, um making a lot of mistakes, and I needed to have something that um gave me some type of validation that I was going in the right direction and that I had some standing um with my peers uh who are doing you know, you know, the same but different things. And um, I always want to make sure that when we're doing inspections in in the guild um that uh that the takeaway is that you you actually benefit from the feedback, whether you use that or not in your own work. It's just an ob like observations on ways that you can you know think about um the construction or aesthetic of a knife uh a little bit differently depending on um kind of what you're what you're going for with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I mean I think there's some of it too where you as a maker, are you in it for the art? Are you in it for the the you know craft, you know, craftsmanship and that sort of thing? Are you in it um because uh it's a profession you can make what money you want to make? Are you you know, there's so there's some of that, I think, that's that's in it. And I think that things like a guild, you know, you have to more often I think you are typically the type that, you know, while it may be um your income, it but you are also a believer in the profession, you know, you're a believer in the craft. Um and you know, us as part-timers, you know, we're we're obviously more typically, not always, but typically in it more for the craft because we enjoy it. And so things like a guild um are other ways for us to earn or other ways for us to just talk with other like-minded, knife people, you know. So I think some of it's that because it's like I mean, if you are in it, um, and bear with me, because I don't mean just for the money in a negative way. I mean if you're in it because, hey, like you're good enough to make a living at it, so that's what you choose to do, um, that you know, I'm not sure that makes a difference um for you, right? Like there's tons of these of manufactured knives, of um uh, you know um you know, folders and things like that, uh, you know, manufactured, um whether it's a single or or or multi-employee company, like a lot of those guys, I don't, I don't, I don't think, but I don't know for sure. I don't think they're in the guild because you know they like what they're doing too, but they're not, you know, in in it for um as much of the craft, I think. But I don't know. I mean, I think some of that's objective too, because the more I'm talking, the more I'm mentally um debating my own self. So I don't know. There you go.
SPEAKER_00Okay, listen, no backpedaling. Um, uh no, I I I get it, right? So I I think if if I try to break down um the reason why we do things like this, right? I mean we uh I mean arguably uh if I found pottery to be more interesting, I'd learn to to do pottery and I'd probably I'd probably be able to figure it out. Um if I dedicated more time to leather crafts, I'd probably be pretty decent at it. If I got back into jewelry, I could do all sorts of crazy stuff. And and I think what um like arguably, a lot of people are like that. A lot of in knives, you know, it's just one modality of expression, of, of self-exploration um that somebody chooses. And I I can't say that I uh like if you marge like I can't marginalize this the CNC or the production crowd, um, because there's just different things that you focus on, right? Um like getting getting um a machine to help make something repeatable, but handle um handle that repeatability in a way that seems organic, right? Like um uh you know, I've been working with uh Jim uh Skelton uh on his website and whatnot. He's doing these uh these production uh uh folding knives and working with Tuya. And I have to say, like Tuya has been able to do some really incredible uh grind work and incredible uh fit and finish uh to take his uh to take Jim's designs and convert them into a reproducible um knife that is also economic for people. And I I have to think that at some point it's uh I talk with uh uh Lucas uh Cow at Squid Industries that does ballasongs and whatnot. And the passion is just it it's focused towards like I I use this thing, but I want to have the machinery help to do do it in a way that I can uh get it out to the masses and I can do it in a uh uh uh efficient and um and um less expensive manner and still have people use them and whatnot. And so I I think that as as like you know as people kind of change what industrial focus that they have, maybe it's not really exactly the money, um, although I think that that's a compelling component if you if you can get the efficiency down uh down pat that the money does come. But I think really all of us just have a desire to problem solve and to get to a place of our own expression um and and artistic uh mind. Um and whether it's production, semi-production, whether it's you know, tools um or knives, like just you know, just edged um like you know, blades and things, um, I I I do think that there's still that base desire to create and to figure out um how to do it in a way that is pleasing um in internally, and that's the driving force, regardless of whether it's money or not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I I agree. I I think it's something I see as a long-term um passion of mine. There's some of that too. It's it's a long-term passion. I'm you know, like I said at the very beginning of this discussion, is like I I I love knives. Um, and so for me, some of the guild is just that is that um, you know, there's some sort of base there that hey you you're good enough or or you're at a certain level um, you know, to to allow you to vote on certain things. So um some of some of that for me on a personal level. Um and um like I said, Matt, uh, they were the first ones to talk to me about it. And then at a subsequent show, I chaired a table, like our table is butted up together with Brad Zinker. Um, and what a phenomenal guy there. And within that, I don't know, 16 hours and ninth show, you know, I learned more there with uh just him talking to me about certain things. And um he went and um you know, essentially like got got me to really go over the edge and and seek to join. Um but yeah, I'm I'm a believer. Um I think it's a w a way, not the only way to to share a craft, um, you know, for for improvement. Um so yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but there's I think there's also um well, uh if if I think about the the guild holistically, right? Um, you know, a bunch of knife makers got together in the 70s and formed a group that was a co-op to be able to have shows, right? And to hold each other to a standard because there wasn't like arbitrage for unhappy customers was really, you know, you didn't there was no recourse. And a group of people, you know, knife makers that hold each other to a higher standard was part of that um the um benefit of being in the guild. You know, you could go to a show that was a guild show, you could uh you could expect that you were gonna get vouched for and and people who were spending real money at the time um would know that if you know something was wrong or if uh they didn't know whether it was uh you know a well-built knife, the guild helped to kind of give that stamp of approval. And it wasn't a rubber stamp, it was like these guys went through the ringer, as it were, uh, in order to prove that they um had what it took to have uh you know morals and ethics when it came to knife making. Um and if I think about it that way, um, you know, I mean you can charge back on somebody with a credit card or you can blast them on social media. But if there's a reputation that can be um can be nurtured uh through an organization where you're just, you know, a a bunch of like-minded makers that they want to put out a good product, they want to um put out quality, um, they stand behind their their craftsmanship. Um we all kind of hold each other um uh to that standard, and we also have the ability to, you know, um represent or um uh communicate with each other privately if we see something like, you know, this customer is saying something on on Facebook and you might want to, you know, get on top of that um and figure out exactly what's wrong, uh, and we give each other advice and stuff. Um and that I don't think that that's like a function of the guild um uh in some ways, uh, but I do think that it's a responsibility, like a fiduciary responsibility we have of sorts, uh, to help you know bolster our fellow man or woman um and and to uh try to foster the reputation uh component of knife making uh so that way people can when when they see a maker uh buy with confidence and and invest in that maker because they know that they've you know they care about um about you know what their national or international reputation looks like. Um you know. I I guess that there's lots of uh naysayers about guilds and everything that um uh that say that they don't need a guild to do that. And I totally agree. Um, but it is cool to be part of something where everybody um uh for the most part believes in that same core principle and the the the ethics are kind of unwavering.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I agree. Um I'm not gonna lie, I I between when I was first approached and the time that I decided to try, um there were plenty of people um that were uh you know didn't recommend it or at least didn't recommend it for themselves. Um and you know, were were kind of quick to um tell the bad but not the good. And so, you know, I just kind of had to decide for myself and and um I I agree with with the things you said and the reasons you said them. And um, you know, it's I want to be more involved. And so like I said, this last year, um last year and a half, really big transition for me. So moving forward for for myself, um, I wanted to be involved in the guild. I want to be involved in the North Carolina Guild. Um a lot of great folks there too um in this neck of the woods. Um and I I like the guilds. I like the guild concept. I like kind of uh like we discussed earlier, it you know, there are standards. Um in my opinion, a lot of times it's less important what the standard is more so than there is or are standards.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and um like I I I get it. Like we we live in a in a different world now than the guild was originally um um sprung out of. And there's lots of makers who are like, uh I just don't want this like good old boys club telling me what to do with my knives, judging me on things that they, you know, probably shouldn't be, you know, yada yada, whatever. And there's been a lot of a lot of drama um in the guild. And I think that that really comes from artistic ego. Um because, you know, like I mean, these there's lots of uh knife makers uh that were in the guild uh uh in the day that were not full time, they were doing it more as hobbies, and there was other knife makers that decided to do it full time, and their entire reputation and lives depended on um depended on the relationship and the symbiosis of the guild. So um you get you know people arguing over um uh difference of opinion, but sometimes they feel very vehemently about that because of what it means to them personally. Um and you know, I think that with with anything you're going to um you're gonna get that a little bit. Um you're gonna see the bureaucracy um and politics of of it. But um by and large, uh by and large, I think that uh there's a larger group of people uh that comprise the guild now that are um more focused towards answering those um uh the I guess like the the naysayers in the industry, um, like what does the guild do for me? Well, it's obvious that accreditation does not sell more knives. And it's obvious that a b you know group of people uh convened together doesn't necessarily sell more knives. But um there is this thing that happens with getting together and being able to commune with other makers and to uh go to shows and and and to think about knives uh more holistically, that um it it's like the tide that raises all boats. Um when you're in it. Um it's just an energy that you get that spurs you on to do um more things and to encourage you to think differently or outside of the box or to push yourself um in a way that is unique to you um but also keeps with the tradition of knife making. And uh for me at least, I think that that's always been something that I valued is the um the energy that kind of collects around uh makers and to try to keep pushing that envelope. Uh it's like Matt Matt Martin. Like I I love him. He is such a kind and insightful person. Um the fact that he you will will promote the guild and everything says a lot about him and his uh his desire to uh continue to support the history because I think that that's something that he and I really appreciate about the the guild and is is the legacy. But Matt will tell you like if something is just not looking right or if you've uh not gone the extra mile. Um but this is also a guy who's fit and finish, like his his good enough is such a high threshold for him that uh you know I I would say that in in fixed blades, especially, um, and what he's doing, um he's uh you know an elite maker and his reputation uh you know precedes him. I mean he's not going to tell you something that he hasn't tried himself uh and struggled at or um uh failed at. Like he's he's you know pounded the pavement until he's reached a level of perfection that um is is his standard and he's not gonna you know give you advice or uh tell you something that he uh would not support and do himself. I mean, he he makes really, really good knives.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally agree. His wife does the sheets too, right? Skin bender, skin bender, I think. Yeah, she um yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Jenna's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we and we connect um quite a bit so on on the leather stuff. So I make um throughout this process, I I started making these uh these clips for leather sheets, you know, to be using for pocket or sheets or belt pieces. And um and we connected over that you know years about years ago. And uh matter of fact, uh we just spoke a couple days ago. Um but uh yeah, no, couldn't agree more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, um so what is what does uh shows look like for you and what what is like the next, I don't know, um, year or two. I mean I I know that you like are gonna be expanding your shop and doing some more um you know function-based tooling, but I mean what what's the traject trajectory of your knife business and and kind of where you want to go with this in the next few years?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um so for when I started getting serious about this, uh, my knife making again, roughly 2017. I I I was shooting to do knife as a full-time profession once I retired from the army. Um you know, things didn't work out quite like that, and we just kind of I had to come to the the um realization uh that that just wasn't in the cards at the time. So, you know, I still got another uh decade or so before uh I think anyway, uh about a decade or so before, you know, if I'm gonna make knife making the only thing I'm doing, it's it's about a decade from now. So we move into the to the new house that's coming. summer so summer 24 about the same time as play show i think um and um as far as the shops concerned long term um you know within this next year my goal is to to have a folder um and when i say next year this is 24 you know sometime in 24 have a folder off the ground a solid functional you know my design folder so that's the that's the goal uh I think I'll be able to achieve that um not that I need necessarily more space to do that but I've just been holding off um with you know a certain few pieces of equipment um to do that um and so that's kind of like my my near term within the next year goal uh to get a folder off the ground do the do the move get through the move and get a folder off the ground shows specifically um so I I went attended just walking and talking Blade Show West that was my first time doing the the Utah what a phenomenal place that that is um to do a a big knife show um and I can't make Blade Show Texas um and I will go to Blade Show Atlanta again just walking and talking and I I am not dead set yet but I may turn into a once an once a year knife show blade show Atlanta um that might end up being how I do things because that's like a five and a half hour drive for me um you know and and again if I I'm not doing this full time you know I save a lot of money not going to all the shows I I hate it I'm not I'm not telling you that's how it'll turn out but um it it might be the way I go it's just doing one blade show a year that being you know the big one obviously and um I don't know well that that's kind of my trajectory um what I'm on so so that will be 25 probably June 25 um first blade show Atlanta that I'll do um that's kind of like my goal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah I uh I I love hate um Blade Show Atlanta like I I love the venue and I love the uh the people the energy the pit like everything is real great I don't really like the locale so much it's uh there's a lot of traffic um it's hard to find hotels if you're not in the uh the like the few main hotels so uh of Airbnb twice. Um and you know it's it always seems like it's just as expensive as staying in the hotel. Um but I always drive and so that's what ten hours uh for me I think um and you know it gets expensive. I think that the show circuit for me um has been a really great experience and to uh have that energy but I also think uh you know there's there's a lot of pressure to sell knives at the show uh when you have that much invested and and if uh you know you don't break even it kind of gets a little bit um not depressing uh but uh definitely like you um you've lost out on on a component that you probably should be focused on which is your business. Um yeah but the feedback loop is actually really great because there's sometimes that things hit um real well at shows and there's other times when they don't and it gives you that that um uh boiler plate as it were to decide on whether you're going to augment your product offering or your finish or you know things that you uh are bringing in quantity or whether you're gonna stick with it and um uh you know just just be that presence at the show so that people have more chances to get your product in their hands. So uh indispensable I think um having uh the show circuit as the as the uh uh you know as a uh a feather in your cap um versus just doing everything online. But you know uh your prices are so reasonable for the uh level of fit and finish that you have I mean you have to sell a lot of knives in order to be able to uh sustain a show like that make it you know break even um I think that anybody who's like sitting on your knives uh for any reason really needs to uh buy them because I I could easily see the uh the value of your knives being twice what you're actually charging and I think that that's um um something that people should be aware of is that they're getting a a hell of a lot of knife for a price that's very very reasonable yeah hey you know I I appreciate that and um I know I'm biased but I agree um but we we've spoken about this and you know could probably go round and round and some theory some some hard economics point or something like that but about the the shows themselves I agree with you I think that um I don't know I I personally think you got to make some shows at least here and there.
SPEAKER_01It just I I one guy I know he he calls it you or he I like his mentality he says you know you gotta look at shows more like a marketing or advertising expense more than anything else you know and just even if you don't break even it's you know think of it in the in the marketing or or um advertising bucket versus anything else um I'm not necessarily the smartest business guy I just I that's how I look at it that's how I believe it and and I think they're just fun. I I I agree with you that um you know better feedback right than than um you know 10 people walk by your table nine out of ten pick up this one specific design that you hate as the maker but nine out of ten people pick it up like that is a immediate feedback that that if for nothing else that design grabs attention okay you might not like it but maybe you should invest some more time in that particular design you get that immediately um and you know I I I agree with that I think it I think it works both ways. And then like I said before that that when I'm going to shows um I I tell you pictures pictures of knives for whatever reason they are very they are they are never fair one way or another in my opinion. You know it's it either pulls out some scratch that you can't see with the naked eye until you put it under a camera or it makes everything look so good that it's not a fair representation of the quality in in the other way. So um going you know getting that that product in your knife or product in front of people at a show gives them the opportunity to pick it up in their hand, look at it, look at the maker, meet the maker um and um you know see firsthand. So anyway, yeah I'm a big believer in shows I you know I haven't done that many as a maker um some of the bigger ones and then of course I've been to a ton um and uh walk through them but yeah that's my that's my overall goal as far as the the my pricing is concerned um you know it's just this conundrum. I think for me it's a little bit different because um you know it's not a full-time job I'm um um I have a lot of flexibility but I will tell you what I absolutely hate is I hate knives sitting on shelves and um it's like it's like uh uh it weighs on me you know and um and so I I I price them to move and I I get more enjoyment out of making um I think then than selling and and the selling for me is really to keep up with um you know equipment things like that anyone expand and and do things uh you know more in the shop so that's my take.
SPEAKER_00Yeah no I mean and I I agree with that I uh I I've thought about that too like um you know sometimes um selling a knife and selling them quickly um e even though you know maybe it's uh you know $150, $200 um cheaper in some ways. Um yeah you if you sell them then it's it is better than them sitting there for forever because you know the new tool that you want to buy maybe you have to sell 25 knives right versus 10. But um but you if the price if the price is right and there's enough interest then you can still get that piece of equipment or whatever. It just takes more knives to do it. And as long as it overunder makes sense then you kind of just got to do you. I I've struggled at times with sales uh it's it ebbs and flows and I've I've tried not to make selling the um the the defining factor for um for my knife making what I'm really interested in is when I price out knives and when I make knives, I want it to always be a a value back to the customer that they could sell that knife at any point in time and recoup um their money and that um in some way it appreciates with time um you know time and materials and stuff like that that I put into it that it has some investment quality. So I you know I try not to price myself out of that um market where it is advantageous to a customer uh to buy it because you know simply because it can be used but if it doesn't get used they can also like trade it or sell it and it has a you know a value that is you know they can you know laterally trade um trade out knives or things like that too yeah I agree I you know I've I've um throughout my time so far as a maker I've I've tried all of the form formulas you know they have for um pricing s you know something handmade whether it was knife or something else like I've tried all the formulas I've I've uh you know read all the books on it but I find the the knife market to be such a fickle thing.
SPEAKER_01Um I I I don't there are certain things I I think that are unique to to the knife industry. Um maybe not holistically unique but you know more unique and and you know the name and how a a maker got his or her name and I don't know it is uh it is very fickle and I don't you know um one of your other guests said it said it too that you know almost everyone buying you know our type of knives that they don't need it it's not like um toilet paper you know don't they don't have to have it or food or water I guess is probably more appropriate to say they don't have to have it um they want it it's a want versus a need and um I don't know it's just a fickle thing to me you know why why overnight did um this uh this knife or or maker that what why did it just skyrocket like what what happened you know I don't I don't know and um I think there's a I am often perplexed by the kind of like a you know which came first chicken her leg like how you know a maker um did did did the maker um for whatever it is whether it's the the name and the the desire to have a piece of his or her um equipment you know like how how did that hap how how does that happen? I always scratch my head with that kind of stuff did did you know I and I think there are different theories and I'm not sure any of them are right but like some makers will say you know hey you you you gotta price it it is what it is and um that's it don't budge and and that's how they make their name and then others will say well I grew into mine right like I started at this price and I grew into it and grew into it and my name grew and then people once they knew that I was a a trusted guy or gal that's when that's when they you know I was able to price it accurately. And so I think there's different theories with that and I don't I'm not sure either is an exact science.
SPEAKER_00Yeah well I mean I I I I think that that is up to each person. And that's that's part of the value proposition that each person has too because um one person's style of selling is really very intrinsic to who they are um I think um the uh the way which they think about what a square deal is and the way that they uh they price their knives out I know lots of knife makers who um sell their knives for way less than another maker of equal quality right um and and I know some who sell not so great knives for a lot more than you think that they would be able to get in the market. And that's that's the thing. It's like I like selling a knife to me is like the least important part of of making a knife. Al although you need to be able to make it to you know recoup costs and and whatnot. But if you treat if you treat the vocation um of knives as trying to s you like zero in on um the things that are the most important to you like the the quality, the aesthetics, the um the y utility, the art, whatever those things are um that tells a lot about um the kind of vision you have. And there's there's gonna be customers that pick that up um eventually. But uh it's uh to me it's the probably the most vain um component of knives. Like I hate talking about uh selling knives. I would just like I ideally I would just like to make them and post them up somewhere and then sell themselves. Uh but it does seem like you know in your when you have an expensive hobby slash business that you're trying to run, there's always this next expectation of um the economy of it and whether you're actually breaking even or whatever. And um I just I'm more interested in just the world of knives than I am in trying to you know hawk my own stuff. Um it it it definitely interests me more to talk to those customers and to figure out what they're doing um with their knives and to um you know maybe have a place at their table with some of my stuff and it it means something to them. I'm I'm more about the relationship um than the dollar amount that's associated with that I guess.
SPEAKER_01Yeah no I I agree with that. You know for for a while there at my beginning I bear with me uh because it's gonna sound weird it was almost like a game to me right I and I had a ton of fun doing it and so I was like dude not only am I this is my escape at night instead of like watching TV for example nothing wrong with that just that that's what I prefer to do. This hobby grew into a passion and not only did I have fun making it and thoroughly enjoyed making knives but you're telling me people wanted to also spend money on it and so it became this thing like oh my gosh this is great. Not only do I not only do I avoid piling up boxes of finished knives on the shelf people actually want to buy them. Buying them enables me to keep up with the belts and you know the the consumables at the beginning and then that grew into crap I mean I now I can buy a nicer variable speed grinder and so on and so forth. And it it is still very much so that way um for me. And um I would I would love to have been you know a full time profession for me. But you know I was just kind of past that point in time and some goals that we still have left in life won't won't doesn't really match up with that. But I I I tell you that the fun of it is still very much the case for me. Like I it it is my escape um it is my my hobby it's my passion um and I just love knives and I love going out there and making them and that's part of the lower price too that I think that that I'm less concerned about about that. Yes, while I believe that um you get a really solid deal um you know and great materials uh with one of my knives I'm you know uh it's there's a lot of enjoyment um from it that I have and so that's kind of my mentality as it's it hasn't changed too much for me. Um you know if I were to be doing this as a full-time profession um in my I relied on it to pay mortgage I might have a drastically different mindset maybe maybe not but um I would certainly have a little bit more hustle than passion maybe um if that makes sense but uh yeah that's kind of my mindset and has been for a while yeah well I mean I love your knives I love your aesthetic I love your your uh personality I mean I you you're a a good person and um I you know um as like time goes on like I'll just keep an eye out on your work and see what uh new things you come up with uh because like for me there's lots of stuff that you do that I just look at it I'm like man like that was a really good idea.
SPEAKER_00Um you know your execution was great. I wish I would have thought of that type of stuff. And um I I I find that like in my life as sometimes as I don't have enough time or family stuff comes up or work stuff comes up that I don't get to make as many knives as I'd like to that um you're one of those uh makers that actually live vicariously through um you know being able to see that kind of unfold um on you know social media and uh getting to see you succeed in that in the way that you do um you know I I'm a big fan of yours so I mean you know just keep rocking it because you're you're uh pushing an envelope that I just really uh respect and admire.
SPEAKER_01Hey man I yeah I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. Um I I enjoy it. I I thoroughly enjoy it. I I think that um the balance is hard you know I think that's all that's a lot of people go through that just like any other thing in the in the world that there's a balance you know I get I get worried am I playing with my boys enough am I giving them enough attention how about my wife you know or whatever but um you know I've been doing it for a while now and I think I've got the balance at healthy you know and um I plan to keep doing it. I think that um you know this is the folder um when I first started I'd I had always said I'm I'm never doing a folder that's just I don't see any I'm not gonna have any enjoyment in it or whatever but um obviously I've I've changed my mindset and we'll see we'll see how that goes. Um I you know I think that uh talking with other makers um that's kind of opened my eyes um when when makers uh would would readily tell you everything you know didn't matter what what the question was um and that opened my eyes to the generosity of other makers and that and it really told me something that that's for about a decade now that has held true is that uh you know 99 again my statistics no one else's but uh you know the vast majority of makers are gonna tell you um everything that you they're gonna answer every question you ask them um in it it may be in their own style it may be their own process uh may not be the best process etc it may be theirs versus the best but the you know the each maker doesn't really see I think a lot of competition with other makers they're mostly in competition with themselves so they're you know trying to make a better product trying to make a cool thing or a new widget or whatever that may be um and so I've I've tried to to give back and I I feel like I fail um you know miserably so I'm overly uh responsive I think sometimes when people ask questions you know I take the time to give them my supply or I take the time to to uh send a video or a picture of here here's what I'm talking about or point them in a resource uh direction to a resource website et cetera or or other maker um that could answer it better so I you know I don't know I want and that's something I want to continue as well um but I don't know how to bring this full circle back to looking forward to uh doing a folder we'll see how it goes if it ever sees the the daylight yeah well I mean I it would be really cool to see your aesthetic on a folder because I I think that there's um there are benefits.
SPEAKER_00I know that some people, you know, they make slip joints or folding uh folding knives and they're like, well I wasn't wasn't very good at making sheaths so I decided to make a folder so I never needed a sheath. Right. And you know that that creative problem solving is great for some people. You know it's the motivation that sometimes um they need to push in a different direction. But I like I I would I do think that uh when you do that, man, it's gonna be to the nines. Like I I I have no doubt that um whenever you uh push into that realm and everything that you're gonna do like a phenomenal job at it. It'll be cool to see it. And um I I hope that, you know, at least for person the personal benefit of like you uh doing it and having it done, uh just to see whether it's something that, you know, is to your liking, uh is that's that's part of um that's part of the process. I think that's what that's what's cool about it. And you you know, it's like um the podcast and um and sh kind of proliferating this knowledge or a different mindset about how to think about knives. That's really what I want. You know, I don't want to put up a bunch of YouTube videos and make um make knives just to do stuff that a lot of other guys um are passionate about. I want to talk about the esoteric nature of knives and the pushing people to think outside of the box and whatnot, and having guests like you on, um, you know, where you do really you try to hyper focus on things and to get really good at and perfect it. Um I think that's a an important point uh point for people to um to at least have some insight in because you know, if you through repetition do things enough, and if you think enough about a problem, uh you can solve it. You could do really just you know phenomenal things in a way that maybe nobody else thinks of doing.
SPEAKER_01No, I agree with that. Yeah, I um like uh you know, I was like I said, I was trying to trying to kind of catch up on some of your podcasts, and um and one that I listened to right before uh or earlier today was with Alex Nightwatch. And we just we've been friends for a while now, and uh we just exchanged knives. Uh well I was pretty late with mine, but uh nonetheless. Um just your comment there just kind of made me think of him and and um you know it's just fun. It really is. And uh you know, I look forward to the future what the future holds.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely, man. Well, I appreciate you uh uh being on the podcast and talking, and I know that you I want to get back to your family and whatnot. I mean it's uh it's a humongous honor to have you on here. It's uh you know great to get to talk to somebody who I feel like I've followed for you know quite a long time. And um, you know, I appreciate all of your insights and everything too.
SPEAKER_01No, absolutely. Again, I can't tell you how how much I appreciate you uh asking me to do this. It was uh it was my honor, and I had a great time. Thanks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. It's my pleasure, too, man. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you were loved and God bless you.
