SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeBeer. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about anything and everything knives. In Andrea de Leon's own words, she is a multidisciplinary artist that uses elements of light, equilibrium, optics, and psychology in order to explore a quantum neuroses. Due to the nature of making the work, the exchange of heat and energy inherently embeds itself within the process and creates a dynamic, cerebral landscape, often causing a paradox where it creates mass with negative space. The work takes a metaphysical approach to reveal something about the viewer, ultimately grasping to understand what makes us human. In the same way as her glass and metal work, Dre's knives and jewelry take on a personality and mind of their own as she pushes into an unexplored universe of thought through physical medium. We discuss a lot of the esoteric nature of art and creativity and how thought provokes and evokes. Andrea, it's a pleasure to have you on the Good Old Blades Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, thanks for having me, Aaron.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah. Um I want you to go through, I guess, uh well let me let me back up. I s I started um, I guess, my adventure through uh your work of a few years ago, actually. Um, and what interested me about it wasn't uh necessarily your knife making per se, but what you were doing inside of jewelry and glass. And it so it so happens that I don't know whether it was like the uh Instagram algorithm or what, where I stumbled upon your your um profile and everything. But uh, you know, after I got into knives more deeply, and then you know, more recently was talking to uh Steve Schwarzer uh about uh artists and whatnot, he said to talk with you. And so I'm like, oh, you know her? Like, you know, that's pretty cool. And uh I want to understand some of the connection between Steve and you, but I really kind of want to dig a little bit more into the distant past because you have a what 11 or so years on Instagram of uh stacked um activities and stuff, and um, I just kind of want to know like what got you into crafts and art and what was your early development into that um first, and then we'll kind of go from there.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Okay, sounds good. Um honestly it was a little mixed. I didn't realize I was just a deep-rooted pyromaniac until after I was like in the thick of it. Um but I pursued art, I was always attracted to design. Um, and I actually started out in architecture. So I studied architecture at SCAD for about a year and dabbled in industrial design and saw that the program at UT, uh the their art program was pretty broad and it didn't corner you in one thing for four years, and that was really attractive to me. Because at then I was like very still confused about what really like my career would be, and I like cared about it so much, but it didn't want to be limited or cornered. I feel like that's been my MO my whole life. Like if someone's trying to define me, I try to the minute you tell me I'm like stuck in this one place, I'm gonna try to get out of it. So um, and through that program, I you know started getting educated about conceptual art, which definitely pleased my philosophical brain. Uh, and in my mind it was a pure pursuit to do something so human, so innately psychologically human. Like humans are the only ones that really have the capacity to transform other objects through cognition, like shifts in their cognition, like that um, for example, like that red those these ready-made objects, that toilet is no longer a toilet, it's a fountain, right? Or um, and that's a Duchamp piece, but uh that kind of mindset is uniquely human, and so I started dabbling into more psychology, and I was making a lot of sculptures based on artificial intelligence and like why computers have this map that mimics a certain like the way a human brain functions, and tying that with the physical world around me that was more metaphysical, um, more like exploring quantum physics, like uh basically just exploring these ideas that were always weighing really heavy on me, um, through like establishing a relationship with the material. So that led me to really hone in on jewelry, metalsmithing. Uh, that was my main focus in undergrad because there is no way around it. You have to know the inherent properties of these non-ferrous metals in order to get them to do what you want them to do. Not only that, but it's extremely challenging and everything has to be super precise. But it's mostly like I feel more like a chemist in when I'm in the jewelry studio than than an artist. Um most just because of the nuances and like why things have to operate. So that knowledge becomes then inductive with any other material. Like it's actually very similar to glass in that way. Um, how it wants to be heated, the stress that's in there, um, how you weld it, uh, things like that, right? Um, so that just kind of that momentum kept me um pursuing these different crafts.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

It's a long-winded answer, but yeah. No, hey, listen, the less that people have to listen to me, the better. Um, but I'm I'm interested in that because, you know, even even inside the concepts of jewelry, because I I uh had done an apprenticeship um with a jeweler uh here, and it was I've always been into um metal stuff. Um I would say, you know, just being like a uh country bumpkin um and farming equipment and things like that. It was just like, you know, you made the tools that you used all the time, right? And um when I moved down to Texas, I did a jewelry apprenticeship, and um, you know, because of a lot of factors and with the economy, it just became very expensive to operate in the uh gold and platinum and rhodium and all those things, it was just like super expensive. Like, I can't do this um on a starting budget.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Um whereas this overhead is high, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

And so I did some silver work for a while, but the economy wasn't there because people, when they're looking for jewelry, they're really looking for um, well, in in this custom jewelry market that we were in when I was uh when I was apprenticing, uh the eye was more for gold and stone setting and things like that, but not everybody had the funds for it. So it was definitely luxury purchase. Um, and so it was just like very constrained, and so I I got kind of gravitated away from that and was just uh working on you know this IT career um thing in cybersecurity, and then I was like, you know, I still really like manipulating metal and in a way that uh I have some constraints, and so I got into knife making. But you know, in addition with like all of the very cerebral, like figuring out what you're like how metal, uh, you know, especially non-ferrous metals operate and what constraints there are, um, there's also an exceptional amount of technical um knowledge that you have to have on how to manipulate uh fire and and you know how to cast things and how to set things and all that stuff. It's like I mean, was that portion interesting to you more than the um the science and um I guess uh natural properties of metalwork or kind of like what what what did you gravitate more towards?

SPEAKER_02 9:06

I think it was like parallel, to be honest with you. I s when I first walked in there and saw like the more experienced people with like those big torches, I'm like, I cannot wait to be like doing that. I wonder what what they're doing. Not only that, the I don't know if you've ever like I know there's a there's like the fine jewelry world, and then there's like snag, the art metals world, which is like things get so weird, and I was just fascinated with like the conceptual jewelry that's like not necessarily everyday wear um that people were coming up with. Um but to answer your question, as I like I was just addicted to learning more of the techniques, and I think that's something that also kept my interest for so long, uh, was the fact that they're under the umbrella of jewelry fabrication, and you're not limited to just using non-ferrous metals, you can use like wood, other things. I've seen people use chocolate, like it's kind of wild. Um, and so you're not necessarily constrained. And at the same time, there's all these umbrellas that on their own take a lifetime to master, like stone setting, engraving, enameling, right? Um, casting. So um in that sense, it's like when what pro when would I use each process? Right? Like when is the appropriate thing? Like, why would I cast this instead of fabricate it? And things like that where um you learn to be more efficient, or just tune into like what processes you enjoy. Like I love the way chain mail looks, but I mean you couldn't pay me enough to do it. Like I I don't think I'd have the patience for it. Um, but yeah, I mean I think it's uh I don't know if you've ever like raised a vessel out of sheet, but um I wish I had the time to do that kind of stuff now. Um it's more of like a labor-intensive old school uh process, but um the way you have to forge metal and like control its thickness so it doesn't like blow out and things like that um are all um I mean not only did I enjoy hammering like the hell out of some metal, just it was very primitive, but at the same time, like you had to pay attention to when it was work hardening and when to anneal it and like um predict how far it's gonna stretch, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah, yeah, and I um for as much as I had done in jewelry, um, I realized that I really just kind of scratched the surface on it. Um because I mean there's there's so much, there's so many different things. Like uh we we dabbled in horology, um, being able to do um some watch repairs and whatnot. Uh but for for larger jobs with mechanisms and things, we always had a guy um that was um that we sent sent them off to. So it's like we kind of diagnosed what the problem was. Um and then to get it fixed, if it wasn't just uh um if it wasn't just being able to find and replace a part, but something had to be made or whatever, that's always something that you know you had to give estimates on and then talk to the guy who actually knew what he was talking about with you know rebuilding watches and things and you know um horology's fascinating, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah. Um and it's like it's a dying art, but uh actually the the university that I teach at, uh the jewelry program was called Horology for that. So I mean I I work I'm glad I work for like a trade school workforce thing. Um but yeah, it's super cool. Um to I mean that's a whole other level. And like everything's you work under a microscope the whole time and all that jazz.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

So yeah, I think um, you know, talking about kind of like jewelry, well I think that we could probably argue that um there's a lot of uh physical art forms like metal and ceramics and glass and things like that that really are kind of alchemy at the same time that you know if you study them in a s in a scientific way, they make sense and you can you can add um context to it. But really, the masters they just flow through that kind of like it's understood, like it's they're just uh channeling some type of ancestral knowledge in order to get to where they are. And like an example of that is um in in this fine jewelry space that I operated in, um, you know, you use kind of modern equipment and whatnot, but we had a guy uh who had been um really great friends with the master jeweler, and his name was Ramon, and he was from El Salvador, and so he learned jewelry making from El Salvador, and a lot of the same concepts that we were doing with modern casting and whatnot, he would also educate me on the like the old way of doing things, you know, like throwing it in a sling and getting the uh you know all like aqua reach.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

I tell people about that, yeah. They're like, you know. Yeah people will just like sling this above their heads when they don't have a casting machine.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Um, I think that that's cool though, because um expression through those mediums in a lot of ways um doesn't have to be a super expensive thing. Like um, you know, I feel in some ways like knife making, you have to have all of this equipment in order to be a um, I don't know, like the modern uh the the modern knife maker. Like everybody expects that you have a two by seventy-two and everything like that. But there are like lots of ways to manipulate materials where you don't have to have super complex equipment to do those things and still produce really great r pieces of works, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

I I definitely agree. My metal snipping teacher in undergrad was very old school, and I'm and she wouldn't let us even touch a power tool or a flexhaft until after like the second or third semester. Just and I'm really grateful for that because I didn't have access to all the fancy equipment when I left there, so I knew how to do everything despite you know, um not having so I make a point to show my students like this is what you do when you don't have that tool, but if you go work for someone, they're most likely gonna use this buffing tool or whatever it is, this power tool, and I want you to be competent around it, right? Um, so just to be experienced. So I like to show both methods, but I mean having all the tools is helpful, it's just like more tools in your arsenal to be working efficiently. Um, but you're right, it's not necessary. I see some really magnificent work with like bare minute. I mean, I I, you know, lived in Mexico for high school, my whole family's from there. I I see it all the time. Like they, you know, it's still very third world in some parts, and these um workshops don't have much. It's pretty mind-blowing what they can do. Um, so yeah, it just takes uh ingenuity, but I I actually love getting to the point where I can like MacGyver a solution to anything, right? Um to to be able to make something happen. But it takes a minute to get there. I remember it wasn't like always there. I was the concept of making your own tool was like intimidating. Um until you're just thrown in the deep end and you just kinda have to um come up with these solutions on your own. And I mean over time you collect all these tools, right? Um but yeah, I I think you're totally right. It's not necessary always.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah. Well, it's it's kind of funny too that in making things, tool making sometimes fits somewhere farther down the line of mastery, but uh you know, in the human space. But if we think about it like monkeys do that as a way of life, you know, to in order to crack nuts or get bugs out or things like that. Like it's very it's a it's like uh uh that process of making tools in the uh chimp space is like the f like some of the first things that you do. And we wait until later on in the evolution, like when we figure out how basic things work, then we make tools.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yeah, I think yeah, you're right. I've noticed that too whenever I watch, you know, these nature documentaries. Like, we are definitely not the only ones that use tools. Um, I even think I this is speculation, of course, but I I one of the first knife making books I had argued that a knife was the first thing that we made, like a flint, right? Um, as humans. I, you know, that's of course speculative, but it would make sense, right? And uh that keep capacity I feel is really fascinating because like we're able to engineer, you know, telescopes like that are super complex when we like put our minds to it, right? Um so I think that ingenuity is um somewhat it's like unique and rare sometimes. I feel especially now that everything's kind of given to you on a silver platter and things are a little easier, so um that level of ingenuity is is left to a very few. Um but yeah, I think mostly it's uh the people that are that just have no choice but to like invent a way to do it. I that's my favorite thing is to go visit other people's shops to see how they're set up and it fascinates me how different approaches can result in the same thing. I'm like, okay, as long as it works, you know. That's definitely my philosophy. Um doesn't matter how you do it as long as you're safe and effective, right? Um I know other people that are very a lot more um what's the word? Pretentious about it, or like this is the way, or it's incorrect. Um and like I get that, and I won't like to respect tradition, but I'm all about you have to know the rules before you break them.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah, or or don't understand what the rules are and then break them continuously, and then you just come up with a way that works independent of of rules.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Yeah, I don't know if this happened to you, but I I find that um I was a lot ballsier with knife making when I didn't know what I was doing. Well, when I was not didn't know how much how things were really gonna work, right? If I tried something. And uh how about you? Were you like are you more daring now than you were before?

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Uh no. I would say um maybe maybe in the sense that there are some thoughts that I will explore through knife the knife medium, right? But the more the more I've gotten, I guess, indoctrinated into things, uh, the more I think that I've also dealt with some of the uh psychological uh sidesteps that happen um as part of like creativity. Like, you know, when you when you think of like this is what I'm known for, or this is what I'm good at, this is what sells, or this is what is I I know, right? You kind of you do kind of naturally paint yourself into a box. And when I get into that space, I always have like this existential crisis. And I've had that many times in knife making where I'm like, I I hate myself, I hate where I'm at right now. And I gotta like figure out some way to get out of it.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yeah, I feel you 100%. Um, which is why I'm grateful that I have these different mediums to fall back on for that. And then I miss knife making and I end up Kind of getting really bullheaded and just making a knife I want to make. Right? Like I want I want to do like this over the top and then it gets me excited again and then I'll do the the bread and butter stuff, right? Um but yeah I understand that aspect of like people are expecting this of me and I need to like do that but then I also realize um I don't think people care that much I'm not sure like it's kind of this um yeah um outside pressure you put on yourself which is can be a good thing to keep the discipline that's I feel like that's something that's not often talked about um is the discipline to get in your shop and um make stuff but um yeah I think it's also good to get a little punk rock every once in a while.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Yeah. Well yeah and uh you know I think that's the thing is um I like art really does imitate life in a lot of ways because if if I take if I take what I experience inside of knife making um and I remove knives and replace it with some other word than knife making uh I find that there's actually a lot of things like if if if you take like all the the the deep darks of like how you feel in a medium, right? And then you replace that thing with some aspect of life, you find that there are a lot of things that are corollaries inside of of anything that you're expressing yourself with. It could be like the relationships you have with your family or your significant other or you know society in general and things or the way that you perceive mirror project yourself right so kind of like going back to that kind of idea of what you're talking about with uh these different mediums and the cerebral side of things I I'm I constantly pull from that. Like I I realize just how much knives are philosophical but then if I take that out and replace it with jewelry or you know in in the case where I see the way that you express yourself in your your glass and and other work I I could see the same thing or theme repeating itself and it's just this I w uh idea I guess of um taking the world and cracking it open and trying to figure out a piece of it through this one medium if all that makes sense that that is exactly right I think I even have that in my artist statement to an extent um like it is I think the words I use is a quantum neurosis like I'm really it's it's Newton's second law in its purest form.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

I am reacting to a thing in front of me and it's having an equal and opposite reaction to my I don't know stimulus to my kinetic energy or potential energy right of for example forging a blade there's nothing more like physical than that that that idea is perfect in that like my kinetic energy is being like changing the mass of this object right um and then I am responding to its change and it's a back and forth in in a way it gives me a sense of place like it I I can understand the world around me not only that like through my manipulation like I can control whatever is happening on my bench most of the time right not always but most but I can't control like all the crazy stuff that's going on outside in the bigger scheme of the world right so in it I am constantly chasing this flow state where I can um make sense of certain very abstract objects even um how we relate to each other or um this I mean I'm sure you saw a lot of the Rorschach kind of things right where we all see different things in the same object like I'm really fascinated by by that um but yeah I don't know it's it's kind of a powerful thing and so yeah it doesn't matter if it's jewelry or clay or um I did I do notice that it's always requiring some kind of chemical atomical change at some point in the process with in anything that I do. Um doesn't matter what the material is like there's always that factor which I found interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah well and I each each medium um well I mean I mean even thinking about it in jewelry um uh m every metal has a different way that it responds and that's actually something I was forced to come to terms with in my apprenticeship was that um you know the first thing that they did it was like okay you're gonna buff everything like so we we all all the all the like the the bitch work basically is what finishers yeah right I mean yeah you want to call it something like it's uh it's all it's all yeah it is bitch work yeah yeah you're gonna be polishing forever yeah polishing and cleaning and figuring out and and you know like uh when I first started on um I I don't know why I didn't think of it because I knew about like heat conductors and whatnot for like forever right but I'm sitting there and like buffing these things and you know that and they're just sitting there waiting for me that that thing to heat up super quick and then burn my fingers. And I'm like do you like you knew that was going to happen. Why'd you just tell me like to watch my fingers right but you know like gold and platinum and silver they all kind of have a little bit different touch and you don't you don't realize that until your fingers are calloused enough where you kind of you're desensitized enough to figure out that they just have a little bit of a different soul each one of those things.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah there's a different timing I yeah silver especially I warn my students I actually preempt them to quench before it even gets hot because it's gonna sneak up on you.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah well mine did mine did not they just let me burn everything and destroy stuff and what and watch and laugh.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

It's like they were the masters of uh of chaos it seemed oh I can't help but I do I do giggle whenever you know a ring gets sucked into the buffer because we've all been there right and just ricochets everywhere um I don't know it's just uh it's a humbling thing I think especially working with glass but at each medium um doesn't matter how long you've been doing it will remind you that like it's Murphy's law is always there and so it kind of helps if you check your ego at the door and in that way it kind of keeps keeps you grounded I guess like there's there's a lot of the times where um that ego and like drive and determination will like make you do something you thought was impossible. Um but like a lot of the times it'll just like you said have these you'll have these existential crises where like what am I even doing like like why am I obsessing over this thing and um I did it yesterday why can't I do it today?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Or but I feel like a lot of what I do especially knife making has um like forced me to tune in to where I'm at that day like if I have to do any finished grinds and I know it's gonna be a belt finish which is um it depends on what what it is right but if I'm not in that mental space where I can like hyper focus I will do leather work or something else because you know you just kind of know you're gonna like make more work for yourself later on down the road and mess something up um yeah yeah I don't know do you do stuff like that where you're like I don't know about this I have to do this but I think I'm gonna do something else yeah no all the time I mean I uh I think I think the um the head space that you're in really kind of determines whether it's a positive experience or not. I've never done psychedelics but um I uh know from a lot of friends and stuff who have that say you know if you're going to get into it um in a session or whatever that you need to be in the right frame of mind because there's things that will like definitely affect your trip, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Yeah it'll amplify it.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah and uh and in the same in the same way but in the same way you know like you're you're thinking about how you manipulate something and uh it the safety factor and the the what what the what your intended outcome is and you know there's certain things that I just don't do like the I I don't uh I don't I'm not in the shop when I'm drinking anything and I'm not in the shop when I'm tired. And I've managed to stay pretty safe from getting like losing digits or getting uh real hurt. But I've also learned that from experience where I I would be I'll be like tired or not in the right headspace and then I'll just totally botch something that I I knew that I had really well understood but it just it changes the variables way too much and then I just end up screwing something up. So like when I enter that space you know I have to treat it with a little bit of re reverence and respect and so that means like making sure that I'm in the right space. But that in that in and of itself is kind of like anxiety driven in some ways because like what you feel like sometimes like what if I am not going to be in this space for a while or you're like I have this thing that I'm trying to get done and it's taking me a while to get into the frame is a deadline yeah or I'm in a funk or whatever yeah um that's a good point I you I for me it forced me to learn to manage my time better.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Like nothing like jewelry like made because the process you can't just whip out a pro the processes will not allow you to just cram the last night for you know a critique you have the next day like that's just not gonna fucking happen.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Like um and so that in that sense I'm like even though there that's where that discipline I mentioned earlier comes in like I'm gonna go into the shop even though I don't really feel like it because I want to allow time for those bad days to happen or those days where I'm like off my game or like the juju's not there whatever you want to call it um and uh yeah I mean yeah you're right like psychologically it's definitely um like the attitude when I step up to the grinder when I'm like yeah this is gonna be fun I can't wait just to get all these knocked out or like ugh this is a drag like I have to be so perfect on this and um you know something like that that's kind of hanging over my head it it definitely um makes the outcome or affects the outcome for me I I feel yeah well and um I think that like as in life and as in art or whatever um self-esteem is kind of one of those weird uh things that I think when you when you kind of know what your core tenants are and what that value system is then then self-confidence is uh is bred from there, right? And when you have self-confidence um usually the things that you do um it's it's easier it's easier for you to accept failure when you're self-confident because in some ways like you have this like cycle that goes through where you maybe you screw something up because you're self-confident but then you're like okay well I can just make it real quick and you just kind of like move on. But when you kind of regress back into that, ugh I just don't know. Like uh uh grinding blades is is one example um where um I I've done it and I've had friends have done it where you just one day you're in the shop and then everything just seems off like you don't know how to hand grind anything. Exactly and uh I'm just like okay well then break it up do something else like taper tangs or or you know like you mentioned about do leather work or whatever like you can find ways to still do something that um breaks that cycle of failure right where I I agree with you. Like you can do something that is successful and that you get done and then you feel like it's a checkbox you know for sure.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Um my I was really grateful my glass mentor in Chicago was very hyper aware of that phenomenon that like some some days are just bad glass days and he would just like tell me to stop and go like put me on a different task entirely because there's just some days and um that I mean you're not a robot like some days I don't know if there's some something's in the air whatever like you might be in a good mood and like wanting to do this thing but um sometimes you know um I think I think that's like another factor that keeps it interesting for me right um I feel like that the unpredictability is is um like it's a drag but it's also attractive I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Yeah no no yeah it does um well and I'm reminded you know I I think that uh okay speaking about metaphysics right like I don't think that we really understand as much as we think we do about like the universe at large right but there are some things that I think we can argue that there's some like outside force at play. Like for instance um some some days um we wouldn't cast on certain days and it's because like the old old timers in the shop and whatnot knew that there's a certain like humidity and temperature that made casting harder because of the uh plaster right it made it harder than others and it's like whether it's their equipment or whether it's like being able to control the environment like there were certain things that made the casts a like worse right there's so many variables. Yeah like yeah I mean and and you could probably can like break it down into different scientific things but it's it's no different than in in violin making um like early on I was uh I was planning on uh uh getting into a a luthier uh apprenticeship and making violins right and the the varnish that you put on violins usually happens at a like where wherever you're at locale wise it happens during a certain season because the humidity and temperature has to be right otherwise the um the varnish can like uh take forever to cure and it means that you can't get the other layers on correctly and you know like the entire sanding process and all those things are affected in it. So like the ephemeral beauty of of a an instrument uh in its varnish is intrinsic to the seasons of life and you gotta just kind of know when things work and when things don't and that's a lot of trial and error usually yes yeah for sure yeah yeah Murphy's law is always a thing I mean I I even tell my students sometimes like to lower their expectation they'll spend like weeks carving a project and like you can do everything right and sometimes like the stars can be aligned and things will still go wrong like for no reason or apparent reason right um so uh it's just it's just something that I find fascinating that I like I've been doing this for so long and I still am constantly surprised and I'm like oh okay that's what happens when that you know thing did the thing or this is a new one or I haven't seen that before or whatever. It's it's I mean especially helpful being in a school full full of students right um being exposed to like you know a ton of different opportunities for failure um but I don't know like I have a lot of great students with good attitudes um and they just I kind of warn them at the beginning you know just if they're expecting instant gratification that they're in the wrong department and they should drop out it's just it's harder than it seems and um now a lot of them are s are just starting and are realizing like the the labor involved in for example polishing polishing sometimes takes just as long as making the actual piece um yeah no doubt so yeah well and um I I'm interested too in like the different personas that persu pursue different uh things in life right because like uh for me I'm definitely more of like a a realist to contrarian um I don't like uh yeah sometimes I'm pessimistic right but I sit in this weird quadrant where I'm just kind of like things are what they are and if you try hard enough you can figure them out but I also think that maybe there's like some cosmic disorder that makes it funny that you fail right and and uh there's other people I agree I would cheers you to that yeah absolutely well but it's funny though because there's some people that I think that they go through the same kind of like emotional ups and downs but they only remember the things that are the positives right they're the positive people. And you're like so like well they might say that they're lucky but I'm like dude did you not see like all the landmines that you almost got blown up by and they're like dude no I see all the landmines that I didn't get blown up by because you know I'm lucky. And like okay well we just like see things just a little bit differently.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Right luck luck had to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

I mean may whatever that case may be I mean I think that like it's difficult sometimes I think to like when you're uh trying to be motivated um you're talking about discipline um uh oh for sure that's why I'm like I I'm a pessimist and extremely cynical so I think what my craft is it it aligns with me because I hope for the best and ex expect the worst especially you know again with like a high failure rate in glass like you just know like it's just not you'll spend all this time money energy sweat into this thing that will break at the very last second and you just kind of accept like okay now that I learned like I knew better not to do that thing and I did it anyway and that's what happened of course okay so next one is gonna be and so you learn not to become super attached and it's more about the process but like you're right it it takes a I find it also interesting to see the different personalities that I get drawn to I think knife making is has and it might not be all the way but most I think every knife maker I know is a contrarian to a certain point.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

I think you kind of have to be um I think Jeff Fader said this at the very end of um the podcast I had with like um Joshua Prince and Leah Aropoch and Keith Decent um where the the stuff that we do defies all logic but we're we're addicted and you're gonna do it anyway. So yeah I see people from all different like um there's some like really great like older retired ladies that like were they're there all the time. They have the most an amazing work ethic um and there's even Jen like these really young Gen Z people that are just really fascinated by the process. I I'm it's really hard to find someone there that doesn't have a work ethic and I'm grateful to be working somewhere where everyone that's there wants to be there. Um so it's a little different than like working at like a state school for example where it's a bunch of freshmen and they're just partying all the time and don't care about class or something like that, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Um Yeah yeah I get that um and um I don't know there's a lot to chew on that. I uh I don't it's interesting to me too because um for for those who are like uh neurotic about things it seems like uh the analogy is like if you're allergic to cats you probably shouldn't make a living raising cats right and and if you have if you have certain types of tendencies towards anxiety or self-doubt or whatever like choosing a medium that basically just intrinsically uh expresses that might might not seem that logical but I think that um when you when you look at things and you're very cerebral about about it you have to force yourself and challenge yourself otherwise you never really crack that nut that is that thing that always just sits in the back of your brain like can this happen will this happen um why does this happen you know the the big question mark around life and and things and I I think it's in it's interesting in in knife making but then in all these other mediums because like I'm really I really just like to talk to people who um have a desire to create things right and then we talk about why that's knives um but really arguably a lot of knife makers could be really great makers in other spaces and it's just you know they they choose knives for one reason or another right yeah yeah I agree I think like well you mentioned self-esteem and uh I I think that definitely has something to do with it it's not the first time I mention it but uh the the pursuit of making things was what started giving me some confidence.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

So like growing up you know especially as like a young girl like uh when all the magazines and stuff were out is just you're you're taught that you're only worth how pretty you are and I know that's like an ephemeral thing so and like I was also it I never really achieved true satisfaction until I poured blood sweat and tears into making something and that was like the first time it was like this weird relief right um so the site and and then all of a sudden I just like felt like it was my job to know every single process in order to convey the message that I was trying to give to the viewer as an artist right like I saw a lot I would this was just taking inspiration from all the other sculptors and people that were doing crazy installations that I knew like they learned how to do this one thing because it it was part of giving the message to the public. So or just like expressing this one idea and so that that's kind of like why I was like oh I need to know like all of the things um I know I need to know how to do this that or the other um the knives just kind of I wanted to try it and then it just people kept responding to them so I still did it. So there was that momentum but it was uh also pretty addictive because it was like then I learned about this or that or the other like this process and I wanted to try it and um I ultimately always use some kind of form of traditional metalsmithing in my pieces. And I think that comes from me being told in art school that jewelry or metal smithing wasn't gallery worthy. And so I would always sneak sneak some kind of technique in in my pieces that were in a gallery. Um just to prove a point I guess.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Yeah I get that I mean um I I think uh you know you going back to your comment about um well I'm not a girl so I don't really um know I mean I'm not very attractive uh in compar like comparison to girls either uh it's not the like um what I think about in that concept is that um in society and as it relates to the sexes and whatnot um people have different paradigms that they encounter uh through different stages right so like you if you're in and you're born with good looks and everything as and you're female uh it tends to be that you're seen only for those things right life is just easier for you. Yeah I mean yeah well I mean that's that's the allegation right yeah uh but you know it and if you're if you're I guess good looking and a guy it's the same thing. But you know it's it's kind of like this weird this weird flip-flop right when you when you're young and you're uh you're traditionally viable as a mate or pretty or whatever then your stock is high and as a guy if you uh if if you don't have anything your stock's pretty low but then as time goes on and you know people age typically guys uh for whatever reason will be able to figure out ways to be like financially uh viable or or strong or something and their stock goes up later on in life and then you know girls it seems like if uh you know you get older or whatever um and people uh marginalize your looks and your stock goes down and it's this weird thing where it's like I I think if you like strip that away right this like we're weird dynamic of uh what's societally attractive and you're able to focus on the things that actually um matter like in intelligence and your ability to affect uh change or whatever that those things to me seem uh way more uh attractive and I think that they're the they're the core um psychological principles that build that self-esteem if that makes sense absolutely I I ended that I knew that that was a losing battle if I just put all my eggs in that basket because it's going to fade like doesn't matter I mean how it was or whatever like I I wanted to have something to offer beyond that um and like mostly just prove it to myself more than anyone that I could do this thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

I could I could you know and that contrarian side of me of course like tell me I tell me I can't weld like you know um and I'm not saying that I'm in the perfect welder but like if if someone tells me I can't do something um I'm gonna there was a lot of things in my early like early twenties that drove like my motivation was through spite and that got me to places that I didn't even think I could go which is I feel like a good thing. But yeah I think that's mostly what I try to pass on and preach.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

That's why I like teaching um because it's just giving this kind of empowerment to other people like you are worth more than than that you are capable of doing this and the skills you're learning now no one can take away from you like that's just like in your that's just in your brain and your self now you know how to do this you have a skill oh yeah um I agree with that so well um like I I I I do really well in like technology right I work in cybersecurity I'm in this kind of like these micro niches of innovation um inside of the security space and everything and like if people look at like kind of what I've done in my career like what I've done recently as like the roadmap to my success and I'm using air quotes here um then you might think that I I always had that thing. But I will tell you I was an idiot like I I knew nothing about technology when I first started like I knew and and it was the hardest thing for me to figure out like there there was a lot of things about the technology the stuff that I do on a daily basis now that just did not come intuitively to me. And it's like the same thing with like you know mastercraftsmen, writers, um videographers, any anybody who who uh pursues mastering a a um a medium or whatever um like it it it's not fair to marginalize a person's suffering by seeing what the end result um is or where their current state is where you find it acceptable or attractive. Yeah everybody has to start somewhere and everybody has to explore that and sometimes you in order to solve those problems or the handicaps that people have you just have to want that thing more and to try to pursue it until like you run it into the grave. Like I want to beat that dead horse uh until it's not there's nothing left of it. And that's my motivation. I need to know this thing um beyond what is probably rational insane. And at that point that I feel like maybe I've come to know it maybe like a few percentage points.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Yeah I I'm with you on that uh that's that's actually part of what I like about it is there's no shortcuts you just need to put in the time period like that's it like you can't you can't like pay your way to the top right like you have to I mean I guess you could but um in a really in a more um true sense right like theoretical sense uh you just gotta put in the hours you gotta put in the time the effort um like you said some sometimes like I see students that like they um some people just kinda get it quicker than others but that doesn't take away like the dedication part of it right yeah well and I I think that their challenges um reside in other areas right I mean some some people understand fundamentals also have a harder time of being able to break out of it um like uh to to explore um creativity or self-expression or things like that.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

And I mean this it's uh in in trying to understand um how how people break apart, consume and metabolize um information is in some ways you have to um what's the word? Create a bias as it were. But I mean it's not to marginalize people but I think that there's lots of different personas of people who learn in different ways and where one strength um or strength is is one thing to one person it might be a weakness to another. And that's where I think that um self-growth and that through the arts is very individualized. Like you can you you really have to not focus on what the person beside you is doing and find a way to um to really just figure those things out yourself because if you're always using somebody else's measuring stick uh to um to develop yourself or to define your self-worth or whatever, then you're always gonna come up short for sure I think that it's um just inaccurate to compare your success to someone else's but I do use comparing myself to other people at times to motivate me right um I I know it's not always a healthy thing but I like it when some people keep me accountable right yeah I get that um I I think that's healthy. I think that's healthy though, right?

SPEAKER_02 57:04

I mean um I I I there's a fine line there's a fine line I know it I know there is because I'll I'll you know all of a sudden it'll like spin me out and I'm like why am I not doing this and like oh I can't keep up with that person or this or that or they're doing this and like must like must be nice to be you know have those resources and opportunities and um that that's kind of stuff like you can totally spin it out but I also kind of be I'm like hey like sh that person got a grant to do this really cool thing that's cool like let me look at grants that might fund this one project that I want to do or etc right um I like to surround myself with people that are above my skill set or at I just like people that I admire because it's easy to feel awesome when you're surrounded by losers right and like I made a conscious choice to curate my the people that I spend time with and it's always people that are like of high caliber, good people, good work ethic, good values um and are just very motivating in in different aspects right um because it's at this point uh yeah I'm too old to be dealing or wasting time with the S right yeah um no and I get that yeah I mean I I I think that that's true of well it should be it should be true.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

You know like at some point in time you have to realize that um pe people, um um ideologies and things like that um can bring you down because those those people who just like to gripe and complain and make excuses and they like this victim mentality um it's it's not that it's not just that it happens to them but it's also that they pull other people into it. It's like a misery loves company is probably the most true statement ever. And I found like I found that in lives and you know it happens in knives too. You know there's people who are just you know super negative and it's like you can't do this and you shouldn't do that and you have to curate this persona and I'm just like eh I don't know dude like like to your point earlier on he's like how much do people really care? And I don't mean like the few people that are griping about stuff but the collective that you know maybe observe maybe they want to buy your knife like how much do they care um about certain things and it's like I mean just focus on you and do your thing and uh derive the inspiration that you do and that's the thing I think that people are actually looking for not how much you're focused on what they see in you right I mean um the whole reason we're in this game is so that we can follow our own formula like that's the only reason why we're pursuing this is is we're we're doing our own thing and we want to be our own boss in a certain way and um we're yeah I feel like that's just kind of in inherent in that so I deeply respect tradition and things like that but whenever someone asks me if I'm like planning to do like an ABS like math I I'm like no I don't need the permission of a bunch of old dudes to make knives. I'm gonna make knives like I just I'm gonna do it the way that I want and um and I have Steve Schwarzer like backing me up so I don't need much else right well yeah and uh you know I kind of fell into that with uh getting into the knife makers guild um there was a certain portion um I like I I recognize that validation is a component of um creativity right I mean and there's lots of different ways that that happens but um there are some ways that you get validation that uh maybe seem great but they're um maybe in some ways empty. Like I I appreciate the guild institution and I appreciate the ABS institution and there's a lot of really great people within that. But like the But you know the thing I'm not I'm I'm not thinking about the organization being the thing that I care about. I'm looking for um the think tank and the artistic constraints and other things like that that it provides. So like I I'm kind of traveling through this ABS route and it's mostly just because I want to be able to um I want to be able to apply some uh rigid constraints that the ABS has against my work and I want to work in that medium and I want to do that thing. And I just want to say okay like I can do that thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

And right yeah I like I like that it's a challenge and it's a it's a caliber right like it's a level playing field and and they're gonna check certain things right um in that regard for sure um like I appreciate both the guild and abs um there's there's other groups and stuff like that that are um I feel it's kind of sad that they're kind of like struggling in a sense like I don't know if you're familiar with Ibana um yeah but yeah I mean they they have this organization and it's it's it's all to be helpful right that's like their main intent and so if you're taking in into that approach um I feel like it is helpful but um I guess my contrarian side is always at play here.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Well and and yeah but I I get that I mean I um with uh Ibana or uh the guild or anything like that uh you know it just so happens that in blacksmithing and bladesmithing and knife making we do have some organizations that are um they are the symbol of uh perfection's not the right word but um maybe coalescing a skill set or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:54

But it's right it's a certain caliber of work.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

But I mean there's no like international quilt weavers uh or quilt quilt makers association type of thing where um that we know of yeah maybe underwater basket weaving or something like that. You know like it it it is it's kind of like we we do have those things and you get to you get to experience the bureaucracy and politics and um them going out of fashion and whatnot in a way that in some other mediums you don't necessarily get or you don't have the gatekeeper things on. I you know I don't know an exceptional amount about glass um uh although like I I I can't tell you like how many videos and things like that I've watched and I've been to a glass blowing seminar and stuff before but I it's it just seems like mythical to me. Like I mean I don't I don't know how how it happens right it's just like sit there and just admire. I'm like I could never wrap my head around those things. But I don't there is there a like a a a guild equivalent or an A ABS equivalent to glass blowing?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Um there is in scientific glass and I'm sure I'm honestly newer to furnace glass blowing soft glass um but I know that there is uh ASGS the American Scientific Glassblowing Society and I have a membership to a junior membership to it um and I get the fusion magazines and I nerd out and yeah there is a hierarchy in the politics and they have a symposium every every year in a different city um and there's like the Midwest section and the southwest section and like stuff like that right um and it's super nerdy and I love it. Love it so much. Yeah that's actually how I met my mentor I volunteered to help at one of those and Yeah, that's where where I met. And um so yeah, there there are things like that. It's such a niche thing, though, the scientific glass. Speaking of dying arts, um Yeah, like the universities are just kind of like doing away with them and just outsourcing everything. Um, which is a shame.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

But yeah, I kind of wanted to talk to you a little bit about that because you know, um oddly enough, like I go to your website and everything, and you actually have your resume on your website, which is I think the first time I've ever seen that being done with a you know a craftsman, as it were. Like sometimes portfolios, yes, but an actual resume is is interesting to me. Uh, and I saw that you uh were doing scientific glass. Uh um I it it appeared to me, if I remember reading about um glass used for electron microscopes, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

So I was a machinist for electron microscopes, so I made all the pieces and parts and stuff that would we would like modify and fix microscopes. So I sometimes I would have to remake certain parts on a bridge port or a lathe. Um, so that's where the scientific stuff came from. And then I worked for Honeywell UOP in Chicago for a couple summers before COVID uh obliterated that apprenticeship. Um and then that actually I was because I had the experience with quartz uh during the pandemic when everything was shut down, I was able to get a job working for the semiconductor industry here in Georgetown. It's not far from here. Um so I was working on like the biggest machine there. I mean they're just desperate for anyone that is willing to do that crazy job, and anyone who's like familiar with quartz. So with that background, um yeah, I was able to still get a job because they were still considered essential. Um yeah, it was it was crazy. I don't really post a lot of those videos, um, but and maybe I should. I was thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

Yeah, well, I mean it's it it's fascinating because I sometimes it's hard to make inroads, like if I'm yeah, again, like you have like a long history of b of uh of sharing things on social right through Instagram, and it's hard to make inroads with like how do you go from um this artistic side to the um the side of you know machining and working um in like microscopes and doing all that. It's it's like it's just a completely different avenue of the cr of a of a craft and everything. It's interesting, I think, in in a way that just kind of opens your career and experience up like a flower. Like as much as I see online, I'm sure that there are stories behind a lot of these things that you're doing that I would just like spend forever trying to ask you about.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

Yeah, um a lot of the stuff I wouldn't post for like NDA purposes. Like I could post videos of the process, but not necessarily of the finished apparatus, right? Um, things like that. So that would that's limiting me on that. But as far as like the art, it it's all the jobs I've taken was in order to still maintain a practice of my own. It it's kind of still surprising to me that I get all bent out of shape when I cannot make conceptual sculpture for a long time. Like, you know, I need to like get stuff out of me. It sounds so cliche, but I I do notice the difference when like I'm able to express myself like on an artistic level rather than just spending my entire life in my day-to-day just collecting a paycheck, so to speak. But all those jobs ultimately I was learning a skill that I'm ultimately gonna use to um apply into my art. For example, the electron microscope stuff, I was around a ton of crazy equipment. Like it was really fascinating, stuff that I just wouldn't like the the instrument that was able to detect how DNA was a double helix or these crazy old spectrometers that wouldn't work anymore. And I would like get to fiddle around and take them apart, or um I had to figure out how to mostly it was like modifying like the camera portion of those um SEMs, the scanning electron microscopes, or um how to make the specimen holder for for those electric those are things are weird because they have like a ruby or a sapphire at the end. Um and so it's kind of like this long wand, and there's like this small portion where you put your sample in. And then at the very like right next to it was that soup like ruby or sapphire that basically has a very minimal coefficient of expansion, right? So it doesn't change much with the different temperatures because when you're looking at something through a microscope and you're looking at it like 50,000 times, like kind of and like amplifying that magnitude, these little shifts in temperature will completely change what you're looking at. So that's why they would like attach it to a ruby, right? Um, so to prevent that from happening. And I like so there was all these cross-references with what like the jewelry and I what I was making, and and there was always parallels I found. Um, so it kept my interest. It didn't really I mean, yes, I needed to pay the bills, sure. But I made sure that like all the jobs I took were actually contributing to um the final like ultimately being able to practice sculpture.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:56

So I'm trying to get back to that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

Well, I mean, and uh and like coefficients of uh friction and expansion and things are like core principles inside of horology because your movements, if they're affected by like the shifting of uh of temperature or friction or whatever, will actually go out of time. So a timepiece that has more joules actually has a uh uh higher tolerance for keeping time and whatnot, right? So like it's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

See all these like diamonds, all those dudes, like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:29

Yeah, I mean, and uh well, I think that's something that I actually uh admire about uh Steve Schwarzer is that um I I mean this in the most respectful way, but he always seems like a kid at heart, right? He's like always thirsting for knowledge and thirsting for this this different discipline that helps him think of the world in a different way. And uh like I hope that it like I can kind of emulate that in one one way or another in my life where it's just like I'm always interested in being able to learn things because I never know how that's going to apply to the thing that I care about that might be right in front of me, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:10

Yeah, I agree. Uh I agree on both fronts. He's he's a wonderful. I think that's why we we clicked when we met. Um just just nerding out about different things like that. I think at at first sight it's um easy to underestimate, like, you know, I don't think you would have asked about my past without like looking at my um at my resume, but it is off something that always comes into play. Like I learned about EDM like metal cutting through through him, and I was fascinated, and he was explaining to me about the process and um how that works and how they're able to get such like accurate cuts and things like that. Um it's easy to to kind of get excited about a new process uh when I mean I think you kind of have to have that attitude to just maintain that magic in the day-to-day, or else you'll just stuck in this rut of like nihilism, right? Um so it's when you find that thing that excites you, or like you get to nerd out about it, um and learn more about. I understand how like a spectrometer would be boring to most people, but it's I don't know. Like, how could you not be fascinated by who who figured that out is what I want to know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

Yeah. But you know, well, yeah, I mean, like um uh oscilloscopes are kind of like arc archaic uh um pieces of machinery uh in their early forms, right? But it's interesting that you get to like like through an oscilloscope, you can visualize um electricity, right? You can vi visualize motion in a way that you just you know, otherwise you have to theorize about it. And there's there's all sorts of things that um if you drill down far enough into the mechanical components of things, you can use instrumentation or whatever to figure out uh uh uh to be able to visualize things that you just could never articulate in anything other than theory, right? And I think that um in in some ways that's an interesting um uh play on um the natural world. Like something that I see inside of your work are um kind of the way that you um you create things that maybe are like disparate thoughts or whatever, but they have this juxtaposition um that m is evocative, right? It makes you think um about uh what what it is that you're creating. Like I look at some of your stuff and I'm like it's it's kind of natural, it's kind of mechanical, it's kind of um industrial, right? And I have to sit there and like look at it for a little while and just try to figure it out and see like how I feel about that, and and that changes over time too. So I mean, you know, job well done and being able to be evocative.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

Oh man, that's so great, great, great feedback from you. Um I I hope that it does that. That's like um my my intent, and all my pieces are like studies for the next thing. It's really funny how it's kind of reaching full circle where I'm like letting my sculpture inform my jewelry, and now I'm at a point where I'm letting my jewelry be little models or maquettes for my larger sculpture that I'm trying to pursue now. Um but yeah, it I'm I'm hoping that it does that. I'm abstract on purpose. I want that piece to be multifaceted, I want it to be more than just like, you know, I don't want to spell it out for anyone either. That's no fun. It's just want it to have an impact and for the only really thing I want is for people to think. That's it, just to think about certain phenomena, or even if like they they don't agree or agree, they at least like have that definition. Um, and I know it's not um common aesthetic, but um yeah, I think it's it's a fun one for me to explore, and then I love seeing it evolve through other people's eyes. Um, so I'm hoping that will um that's my pursuit lately is um I'm like shifting back heavily onto the glass for its properties, really. Like, I don't think people realize it's pretty much the only natural material that is transparent, and the only reason for that is because the electrons in the atomic shells are too far apart to jump, so the photons don't get absorbed and refracted back. Um so it's just like in the because of that, its refractive properties are really fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:49

Like things can seem upside down when they're like when it's thick enough. Um, so yeah, it's just interesting and how the same mechanical properties are are in our bodies, even in our eyes. So I I use that a lot in my work to kind of make you realize how fascinating like your own body is, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's uh it's all really well it's interesting in the art form, and it's also interesting in the like how you get from place to place because I like again, like I still don't understand it. Like I I I what is um in glass turning? I know that you have you can put like a a lathe and flame to it, but what is that um apparatus that you put in your mouth? Is that to control the uh the rotation of the lathe itself?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

Um no, that'd be cool though. Um my lathe is variable speed, but essentially that is the I have a tube that's going inside of the actual tube of glass. So I can control the pressure in there. If there was no nothing there, if I wasn't blowing in there, it glass just wants to be with itself. It'll like it's such a strange material, but it'll like thicken and then it'll like want to be with itself so it'll constrict if I'm if I'm not there like blowing to keep it open.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

Oh that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:28

Um, and then the whatever I like if I create a vacuum, it'll it'll kind of implode from the pressure. So it's a very immediate example of like physics, right? Um, what happens, or if I think I'm blowing air in there, and then something weird is happening, and I know that like either my hose got like clogged or twisted up and stuff like that, right? So it's there's all these variables, or maybe my cork fell out and I'm trying to blow and it's not reacting the way that I want. So that tube is just going on the end of the it's mostly the drive shaft. Um, and the part on on the tailstock is is either corked or already like like the glass itself is closed off on that end. But if I don't have any kind of then I can't manipulate the glass if I don't have any air in there. So that's like the blowing part of the glass bottle.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

Oh, that's it. That's interesting. I uh never knew. I was like, it's like it's either something that controls something or it's a synthesizer of some sort, like a voice augmenter. No, that'd be super cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:44

I know. I think someone uh thought it was like a camo pack for like booze or water, and I'm like, that would be actually more helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

But it's like why not both? Um uh getting into um your experience with uh Steve Schwarzer and everything, um I I can only assume in some ways that that's had an impact on you and how you uh create Damascus and everything. Can you talk a little bit more about like your Damascus medium and some of the things that are interesting about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:19

For sure. Um I the process, because like we did uh canister. I mean, that's kind of his thing, the mosaic stuff. It was really intuitive for me to learn because I knew how glass cane works. So merini glass is you basically like have a certain color um like combination, and then you like stretch it and pull it out really, really quickly to make a really thin rod. And then you chop up that rod into small coins and flip it on its side so it makes, and then you arrange it on the table, and then roll it, you know. Like so I understood how that process works. It's actually a Venetian technique. Um that's another fascinating aspect of glass. I find that you can like layer technique on technique on technique, and it's not that that's not so much the case. I mean, I guess with like all the experimental Damascus now, it's similar, but um, in the same way, you are like forging this specific arrangement of different steels, and then like drawing it out, cutting it up, rewelding it, stacking it, um, you know, doing all that. Um it it was like, oh duh, like I'm it's exactly the same thing, right? So it was of course there's like nuances for doing it correctly without any like delamination and all that. Um, but yeah, it's it's cool. It was also cool to see his like the tools that he made. Um, because I don't yeah, no one taught him. He just figured it all out. He's like a one of those geniuses, right? Um, and that actually it made me just want to make more pieces. I don't have a 300-pound Chambersburg. I would love to have one, I guess, in theory. Um, but I only do Damascus when I have like the press and like the capacity. I would borrow my friend shops in Chicago to make some um things like that. And every now and then the guys from Austin Metal Authority, I'll kick it with them and make some. But uh I mostly just didn't want to make a knife with whatever I made. I would use components in my in my sculptures. Um and some people even gift me gift me Damascus to like call as in in a collaborative effort. Um Nick Anger is one of them who's the regular person who sends me just all the random stuff he doesn't want. Um and I feel like our aesthetics align a little bit. So it's been fun to add a little different energy of the different Damascus and styles. Um I'm still working on a Jason Morrissey hidden tang at the moment, but I've like haven't had that much time in my own shop lately, but I'll get it done soon. I have plans.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:02

I get that. Like I I have a bunch of like pet projects to real projects that I have to get done, and uh I always find that there's something else that takes precedence over it, like working or taking care of kids or things like that. So I mean I I get that entirely. But I'm um I'm interested. So you're in Austin area. Uh how how integrated are you into like the collective Texas knife making scene? Because I guess maybe when I was originally uh talking to Steve and we were talking about your art form and everything, I didn't realize how like close in proximity we were. But do you like do you mostly focus on um I guess the uh the industry and the shops and the equipment and stuff like that that you have available to you based on kind of like your circle? Or have like are you familiar with like all the different knife? Knife makers and the Texas Knife Makers Guild in that area that you you're around in there.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:07

I approach that the same way I do the fine art world, and which means I keep to myself. Um like I've I've run a gallery and I've you know I and I've done all the things so I've been like plugged in and then like stepped away. And so I I think since the pandemic I've just been like, I'm just gonna, this is my bubble and I'm gonna keep it that way. Um so I'm not super uh in fact I'm actually more I network more when I'm around like someone like Neil Kimerura. Um and actually you you interviewed um Brian from Keynes and Knives. Like I'm tied with him. He lets he'll like is so grateful that he'll let me borrow his sand blasters randomly or whatever machinery they have. So while swing through there on a random occasion, they're great, great dudes. Um, love them. Uh and so yeah, I I kind of stick within my circle. I know that there's a lot of really great knife makers. I was I was really close with Hatcher knives. I haven't really seen him post anything lately. Um, but uh yeah, I think it's mostly um just the Instagram community I'm like closer with. Like Joshua Prince and and um Moreko and people like that that are afar, but we're very close still. And I know that I'm like very um, I know there's a lot of knife makers here, even in Austin in the Austin area that I'm familiar with. Um but that's because I work and go home and I'm a hermit.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:02

Yeah, it's uh it's actually funny. I think that um um COVID kind of taught me to love silence. Um whereas like I think social um interaction was a lot it was kind of like more like a duty, I guess. But like since since pandemic times, I've actually become a lot more comfortable with like not going out. And then the older I get, the more of a curmudgeon I get about spending money. Um so it's like if it's if it's like low cost or there's a like a low um barrier of entry and I can have fun, or it's interesting to me that I'm all about that. But if it's like a lot of people or costs a lot of money, I'm a little bit less apt to do it. Um but no, I I also get um I get the uh the connection that you can make with other artists that might not share the same aesthetic necessarily, um, but share the same appreciation for uh the craft. And I don't mean just in knives, but I mean in like trying to look at this sphere, right, and see how what what makes it tick, you know, and they do that in their own medium. Um I've listened to uh Moreko for forever. I've watched uh Neil Kamamura um had had an opportunity to meet him, but uh Kiddo Kiddo was in the hospital, so I didn't. Um but I've I've really loved like kind of what he's done with um within knives over the years. Um and he just seems like a really great guy too. Um Brian with um Keenis and Knives, uh uh I I think it's interesting because I I definitely can see where uh you guys would be friends because the way that he thinks about uh design as an industrial designer and then applying some of those things into his knives seems um not that it makes sense. They're beautiful. They're so beautiful. Yeah, in a way that um I I can't always say that the the the knife pattern or things like that is what you'd consider traditional in any way, but there's some just always something that I'm looking at in it that I can find pleasure with, I guess. It's a it's a he just makes a lot of eye candy, uh, but they're you know, functional art. Um I agree. And what still Yeah, and you know, I look at your work too, and um I I have to think, right, that when I see uh certain elements of like your knives specifically, that there is a purpose for it, right? And that um it's you know, you find with some knife makers that things just happen because um they're supposed to happen, like these pins are placed somewhere where they should be placed, or this uh this has a specific contour or facet because that just is the way it is. But when I look at yours, um it's a little it is a little bit more thought-provoking in that way because there's uh a way that you um present ideas within knives uh that um I wouldn't expect it to be there, right? Like some of your um some of your stone um insertions and things like that into handles or uh some of the geometrics of your guards and stuff that you've done to me is is interesting and it makes me think a little bit more outside the box about what you know you know what do smooth lines really mean um uh versus uh geometric lines and uh what is the juxtaposition between hard lines and soft lines and curvatures and stuff. So I mean it's always something that I think about.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:47

Yeah, um, I think it was just my like I I was actually really inspired by Michael West and how he's really not a knife maker, he's a jeweler, he's making holo forms in his his inlays. I don't know, his forms are just beautiful, his lines are very, very thought out and uh honestly minimal. It's a very minimalist thing, but I've I saw him make like a mirrored silver sheath, you know. Um, that guy, and I was like, man, I love making holoforms. Like, why am I not throwing more of my jewelry skills in in my work and making it more a more challenging and more fun for me? And like I learned a lot in the process. Um, but yeah, like why not culminate all these skills that I have and act not just offer one, but a multitude. So that like the new project I'm I'm working on are tattoo machines, and we're gonna like make them like jewelry level machines, right? Um, just for fun. Um and so I I I love these collaborations where um you can actually use the best of both minds, right? Um I I always appreciate um like Brian McKenna and his lines are very sculptural. Um not only functional, but um yeah, so it's it's just kind of cool to see both of those energies collide in one piece. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:39

Um well I'm I'm also like you mentioned about uh uh Joshua Prince and everything, and I man, some of what he does boggles the mind to me. Um like the the mosaics and everything like that, and the way that he thinks about handle uh like handle design and whatnot. Um it's it's I guess I love it. It's in the same wor world, like it's what it's it's not wacky because it's like it's it's incredibly abstract, but it takes some it takes some um uh portion of what you would probably consider normal or traditional, and it just turns it on its head. And it says like you, you know, you you you're looking at me because uh in on the surface I might seem normal, but the more you dig into like the aesthetic and some of those like the nuances of what he does, it's just like very not normal. It's very like um there's chaos in in simplicity. There is um there is um I guess things that I would not expect to be part of the the material flow. Um and like to me, I I look at that and like I don't know. Like to me, I I like evocative things. I don't know, like maybe it is a coteria like uh thing, but I like things that make me either think there's a portion of me that might hate it, but I don't know why. It's like uh AS like ASMR or whatever, where some people listen to and it just like uh is like uh nails on a chalkboard. And for others, it's very soothing. And like I I like those things because it makes me think about it. I'm like, man, the more I look at that thing, the more I just like I don't know why I want to have it, but I do.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:21

Right. It it actually parallels his personality quite elegantly, um, because he's very zen and very calm in the way he talks, but he's actually really punk rock at the same time. Like I he's very also when I see him making like his Damascus, uh I got to see him and Leah collaborate. Uh it was he was like a madman, and then but he's like has his espresso machine and he's like very calm, but he's also like he'll say something that's like out of left field, and I didn't realize how how incredibly like he comes from this kind of more like punk rock lifestyle. So um a sliver, I've only spent like a minimal amount of time with him, but I feel like I've known him for decades. But so you can kind of see that kind of like elegance and then also like thing coming out of left field. Like, did I just is that really what he did? And I'm like, oh my god, he did do that, right? Um so it's really cool. I um what I want to see, I want to see more of that just kind of um unique creativity, really. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:47

Yeah, well, I mean uh I remember before we like hit the record button, I was talking about, you know, like if if if we just talk to each like to each other or people and we just talk about, I don't know, knives all the time, it really kind of becomes a little bit uh boring in some ways because like there are different ways that you can iterate on knives, but what's interesting is about what causes uh somebody to make a knife or what is the behind the scenes uh to that creation. Like um, like Prince, uh the the idea of like that punk rock scene and and the juxtaposition with his personality and everything to me makes him infinitely more fascinating than even just his knives. And they're fascinating you know in and of themselves. But like uh, you know, if you listen to like if you listen to a person on a podcast, uh, how many times can you listen to them on a podcast before you kind of know superficially like everything that they you know w wish to present to somebody? Um I'm way more fascinated with like what drives people uh than what they actually create, even though that is a separate level of fascination uh for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:55

Yeah, I agree. I agree a hundred percent. It's um, you know, when I see like, oh, what you know, when students come to me and they're like, well, what should I do? And I'm like, that's up to you. You're the designer, you know. Like, well, I should like it to look like this, right? I'm like, look, this is what's traditional, but what do you want? I right. So it's it's I see there's some people that have a trouble finding their own voice. Um, and while it does it does take practice, just like any, it's like a muscle that needs to be exercised, right? Um, to kind of decide what you like. There are people that just go around like doing as they're told and I, you know, just floating through life, um, and doing something they hate, but they're just doing it because they think they're supposed to. And while at times there's value in that, I the whole point of being on this planet is is to see those nuances, like celebrating each other's differences and their ingenuity and what they can bring, right? Um, like I just want to see all the individuality. Yeah, like we're we're all humans and going through it, but I'm like, how do you deal with it? And it's it's uh a spectacle and it's surprising every time.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:21

Um like that's that's what's so fascinating to me, like you said, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:29

Yeah. Well, and I I mean, if I mean people I think in general can bore you, um if they're all just doing the same exact thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:38

Um and that's uh maybe there's a Yeah, or also this attitude of uh because you think different the of me, then it's like and they reject it, right? And I feel like that's actually something that should be celebrated instead. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:56

Well, I mean, and man, I have to think that there are you know, it's not just knives, it's just like uh societal or uh human condition things. But imagine all the exceptionally brilliant people that never were because somebody decided to proverbially shit in their Cheerios, right? And and I I think about that in knives so often because uh like man, I don't know, when you when you sit kind of like on this this periphery that I do, where I just I'm interested in the research um side of of different mediums and things, right? Um I see that there are a lot of knife makers that the ego um maybe unintentionally so uh drives people to conformity, right? That this is the way that you do things, this is what is expected of you, uh, this is what um this is what is the success factor, right? Uh how many knives you sell, or you know, whether you're published all the time or whether you, you know, are in a certain group or click or whatever. And I I I do think, you know, part of the podcast is to talk to a lot of different people about their vantage point within knives. And it's mostly just so that one, if one knife maker or one, you know, person who is thinking about creativity or um self-expression or whatever can hear that thing and change like uh pivot and change their own paradigm into something where they're like, hey, you know what? I I I might have been convinced to conformity, but I'm really want to do this really unique thing and this encourages me. I think that I've done um like the kind of service uh that I want to, because I think it is in that contrarian sense where I really just dislike when people tell me no and I can't do something. Like my entire life has been about you know, you know, deucing people and saying, you know, I like I'm gonna do what I want um in the time that I want, and maybe it's gonna be like infinitely harder to for me to do it, but I am willing to uh capitalize on that by you know by the experience that I gain from it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:11

Yeah, yeah. That's a good way, very beautiful way of putting that. Um yeah, I think it there's a lot of self-discovery and and just uh questioning why, right? Um why you're doing certain things. I think you're right that certain egos have a set way of doing things. Certain egos actually do exactly what you're saying. I think sometimes that can be like I'm actually on purpose going to do, like drives them to go against the grain. Um but yeah, I think it's it's a learning process regardless. Um yeah, I I think you put it in a really great way. But yeah, I'm I'm very selfish with my time nowadays, so um yeah, I'm gonna need to spend my time the way that I want to.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:11

Yeah, well, so life is short. Life is really operate out of your own shop? Like I I'm trying to like uh kind of envision what um how exactly you work exactly. Um because you know, obviously you have different mediums that you work in um fairly regularly, as it were, but you know, so it's like day job and then you have your own, you know, shop to do stuff in, or kind of how does that work out for you? Like how do you organize um these different areas that you play in?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:45

Um that's a great question, actually. I I I've been teaching at two different jewelry schools. I've been teaching at one for over 10 years and ACC since the pandemic. And then I work for Ghost Pepper Glass part-time. They're the furnace glass blowing. So that's something, man, it is so uh interesting to be in a space where you're where you suck at something. Like I'm I'm better at the scientific glass, but I'm not trained as a traditional furnace glassblower, so I'm like going through those growing pains. Um, but anyway, I work for them part-time. Um getting trained up to teach them uh at the public on different classes there. And so, and then I have my shop on the east side. So in the past year or so, I've like weaned down the amount of custom knife orders. So um, I'm not actually currently taking any, I'm just finishing up the fun collaborative ones that are on my bench and also just uh my my own production line. Um so maybe the amount of time I spend in my own shop is a little less, however, it is um mostly just uh I have a lot of like dream projects on the line and I'm trying to get them all organized. So like clients that want pieces for their homes and or like tattoo shop or whatever it may be. I have a few um free reign sculpture projects and with a client, so that's that's like ideal. That's what I want to do. Um so I'm I'm in the middle of of using both technology to make my process in my shop more efficient. And um, yeah, I'm trying to also yeah, so I I already have I build like inventory of jewelry throughout the year. Um so like while I'm teaching and stuff, I'll like get there early or whatever and like make my own work. So that's that's kind of how I split my time. If I'm gonna be teaching jewelry, I'll try to make the most efficient use of my time and make jewelry there. And then um yeah, so then when I'm doing glass, I'm thinking about what conceptual pieces I want to make with that medium and practice that on my off time because that's another great thing, is is having access to to that studio and someone to assist you. Um it's it's a complicated and complex skill set, and you need that's another thing I'm not used to, is you need you need to be in a team, like you need someone else to be able to make work. So we trade assisting time. So I assist someone and then they assist me. So that's been a very um fun and like humbling pursuit. But yeah, that's that's kind of how I split my time when I'm at the glass shop. I'll try to prototype. If I'm in jewelry land, I'm gonna try to make that. If I'm in my shop, I'll glue up some handles and then work on this other stuff, right? Um, but yeah, I it's um not the most traditional way of life, but well I um I I kind of like a a thought about that I I don't know how I could personally

SPEAKER_00 1:50:00

personally do something like that. Like I I'm really fascinated with leather work, right? I suck at it. Like I I think is like if I if I if I was repetitious enough about it, I could get good at it, right? But I s I totally suck at it. And but I've thought about like um if I divide my time between all these things that I really like to do. Like I mean I really I do like jewelry work. I've thought about like adding in some equipment so that way I could do like jewelry type of products or you know projects. I I love lapidary. I've never actually gotten into stone grinding or things like that, but it's like really fascinating to me. Very similar to grinding a knife just wet you know well yeah but I mean like the space requirement it's like I can't have a shop that has like absolutely everything that I like to do because I am kind of limited on space. I'd like to do blacksmithing. Like I could just see if I took half of the knife making equipment that I have that's related to machining out and I put in equipment instead that was for blacksmithing, I could do knife making and blacksmithing but I really do like the precision of machining stuff. So I kind of have to like pick and choose. Otherwise I just have a humongous building of all these things that allow me to like kind of like poke around.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:20

But how how does that work with like the kind of glass that you want to make and everything and the foundry stuff that you do I mean like you'd have to have an infinitely large shop to be able to house all the stuff that you would need for that right yes I ideally that would be the case but I do not have that I have basically the equivalent of a two-car garage and I I get this question a lot with my students I I don't invest in much jewelry stuff because I have access to that. I also have access to ACC Riverside the Austin Community College the same college I work for has this incredible welding department with five power hammers three huge forages um and all the welding equipment I could ever want. So um I don't ever intend on buying a power hammer I just every now and then I'm really tight with all the instructors there and they let me I respectfully like you know um walk in there and and really hey I just need to work on this one thing or bust this thing out and typically they have the same attitude I do when I'm teaching like I want people to be in there working like that's what it's for right um so I basically have the flame working scientific glass stuff in there and some like the knife stuff in there and um yeah I'm able to kind of it's not ideal uh to be in such a dusty environment with all the glass but I make it work I'm like very um I keep it clean I cover up my lathe I cover up my torch so dust doesn't get in there I like have to do a bunch of prep regardless uh of cleaning the glass before I I work on anything um so I'm just kind of very methodical I'm uh you know not trying to blow glass on the same day I'm grinding handles right yeah yeah I hate that well I mean not not blowing glass but grinding stuff I'm just like oh god then I gotta clean up the entire garage because it just gets everywhere but yeah that's the thing you're committed to that's that's basically your life you're making dust like that's how you make a living is you make dust um it's pretty silly but when you think about it um but yeah I I'm just I guess more intentful and like you said the priorities shift a lot so I have to be very organized with the projects and what takes precedence like you said.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:22

Yeah well I'm I'm interested you know you mentioned about um uh this uh tattooing uh collaboration stuff like um what what exactly is it that you're doing are you are you machining or and creating um tattoo guns or what can you describe a little bit more about that to me um yeah sure of course I am collaborating with someone on like uh I'm actually doing the CAD for this machine uh this yeah and then just making all the parts so I'm not unfamiliar with this just like kind of I have these constraints that there's certain geometries that need to be considered and um like there's a lot of little parts and hardware to go on to these motors and I I'm gonna eventually like I have to solder all the motors in and um basically designing all the parts and getting them manufactured and we're um doing them out of the first run out of brass and so eventually we can like plate them or add jewelry and um all different kinds of uh that's the plan at least uh variations on this but it's basically uh like the most tried and true type of machine and I feel like it aligns so much with what I'm already doing and the jewelry like I think tattoos are um are basically a a permanent heirloom of sorts right and uh I'm just excited to make a tool that's gonna like I don't know they mean a lot to me on my like I know it doesn't always to some people it means something different and I'm all about you do you but I found a a really transformative thing with them and so it's it's really exciting to be making something that's gonna contribute to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:41

So essentially yeah I I catted up this thing and we made a few prototypes and now we're just gonna make some small limited runs um with uh I'm partnering with Dylan Forte he's uh has a reputation in a lot of like the sacred geometry type stuff so our artwork alone like kind of aesthetically aligns um and he's out here in Wimberley so it's just been fun kind of working on this project with them and I'm learning how to solder a bunch of stuff. Well I know how to solder jewelry but soldering like electrical things is um pretty fun and frustrating at times.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:28

But yeah it it's it's kind of interesting like um I I I I see a little bit more of a parallel in tattoos and knives and well in art um than I guess maybe you used to. But it's interesting to me because like uh my wife and I, well I haven't got any tattoos lately. But there's like um I like them because uh there's a catharsis I think to um getting tattoos and being willing to uh commit to something on your skin that you uh um you know in a lot of av other avenues in life you might not commit to those things right but that then you get to like wear this thing and in in and it's just like a little breadcrumb to maybe something internally that you um you um are fascinated with or you know a a a a a component of self-expression right and that's what the the way that I've always looked at tattoos I'm not like uh uh trying to uh convey like uh being a tough guy or or things like that. I really like it for the art and expression component of it. And um it it's interesting to me um that through this um you know tattooing um component that you appreciate and you uh commit to yourself that you're actually making tattoo guns like to me that's like rad it's like um I I saw it this is tangential but um I I've always grown up around harmonicas. Um just it's weird. Uh maybe it's an Appalachian thing too but um you know like like folk music and stuff. Um but yeah there's only one example of of a person who makes harmonicas by hands that I am aware of and they're somewhere in the UK. I saw some like random YouTube uh video about it and this guy has made all of his own tools to take like what would traditionally only happen in a factory setting and make them himself an artisan harmonica craft. And to me that kind of thing is super rad. Like the same thing I think about with like tattoo guns like being able to like make those things and make them beautiful and they're functional and it's in a like this you know an artisan or bespoke type of manner to me is like interesting in and of itself regardless of the other stuff that you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:52

So I'm like congratulations and finding an yeah another avenue to of self-expression that's like really radio thanks I'm really I'm really excited about this I I deeply care about this it's another kind of counterculture that I've had the luxury of kind of dipping into um and the the person who does the artwork on my body has been one of like my like art heroes. I don't know I just was always obsessed with his work and the fact that he he's the one that like really s like kind of got me started on it. He knew I made knives and um I actually gave him one um as part of a tip and like he just wanted me to make some back plates to a machine and as a trade so a lot like most of my work has been in through trade with him. But yeah it's uh it's something so primal uh I found it so when I'm like kind of reading up on the history of jewelry it in inevitably comes up as well. Like all this it's a universal cultural tribal thing that um is super innate and I think you're totally hit the nail on the head with the catharsis thing um because it is I mean it's a lot to go through and then there's like an adjustment period too with like having it on your body. Now I see pictures of myself without them and I'm like that looks so weird. I feel like I should have had these like all along but uh yeah it's it's um it's really it's been a fun venture and some something I really have faith in so it's been cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:54

I uh um in tattoos I've gotten stuff on my body that like means stuff to me right um and it's kind of like a patchwork of just different things. Um I I in some ways I think like maybe if I would have thought a little bit more intentionally about things um that maybe the placement of stuff and how how it all ties together would be a little bit different. Because it really doesn't like I don't have anything that really ties together. And so it's more of like a billboard for different things that I experience or appreciate. And I've noticed like on your tattoos and stuff like it seems like in some ways that they're very intentional. That there's maybe maybe not that that's the way that it was intended walking into it but the concept is all like you know the ge geometrics and the placement and everything seems um kind of that way. Do you appreciate the fact that you went that route of like doing art through like tattoos versus the randomized tattooing like I like I have yeah totally I I'm glad I waited as long as I did I um to really like go I mean because you get all these impulses when you're younger but surprisingly I have um like a multitude of different artists that tattoo me but they all have a line with my aesthetic and so I kind of just give them certain cues and I think it's important to let them have a lot of creative freedom in it.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:40

Um there's only a few on my like a handful of them on my body that I like added to later on that I designed myself. You take your spin on it and in that sense it's it's been very exciting to me. But yeah I I do what fascinated me when I started really diving deep into the tattoo culture were the bodysuits um and I just felt like it made more sense to go that route instead of um just a bunch of like little stamps even though I do like the aesthetic of like traditional having like a lot of stamps or whatever like stamps is not the right word people are gonna like hate me for that but um you know what I mean like just like a lot of random things I do like especially like the old um black work Russian tattoos I think they look really really cool and even just like the history of them and like the symbolism is all really heavy. But the ones that would just floor me were always these crazy bodysuits um that take so much dedication. And yeah it just it's kind of fascinating how people just go all in right um and it just makes sense to me as like a canvas and I'm a lot of my work is like this a lot too that's symmetrical and but not not exactly the same. So even though it may look like the placement is the same but if you take another deeper look they're like different designs so um it's p like parallels my conceptual work.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:47

Yeah well and I guess like in in that way if if real estate on your on your skin and everything is a canvas or a portion of something um you you kind of you kind of ruin is the wrong word but I mean I I I can't tell you how many like tattoo artist buddies I have that basically go through removal processes to to be able to put something else in its place once they think through kind of like architecturally how they want to do things. Like so some you know some people that sit in tattoo parlors all the time that just get little cool stuff that their budget um allows and then others that spend thousands of dollars on this piece that they fill out on their canvas that um really has a lot more intention and thought and structure to it maybe even s even in the con context of it it flowing or not being um the the same like I mean like a um you know sacred geometry I think is one of those things where um there's a lot of uh beauty and repetition but then there's also a lot of um um dynamic shifts that you can have in the way that you look through things geometrically even on your body and whatnot and like to me I mean that's again it's hard to do too on a on a soft skinned body like something so um calculated on a round surface is trick is hard you know I'm fortunate that like the people that have been with like understand that very well um but yeah it's it's um the Thomas Hooper is the one that it's he's like my my main guy that I go to um and uh I think he popularized all that mandala black work like um dot work stuff right the super subtle things so um and Dylan's known for that as well and so the machine we're we're making is uh capable of doing all of it really um it's kind of interesting to compare different machines side to side but um yeah so it's the sacred geometry has like kind of just resonates with a lot of people um due to I don't know the the kind of I don't want to use this word but the godliness of math in nature right it's um kind of a powerful idea and something that kind of rules over our lives whether we realize it or not but it's it's all math yeah right? Well yeah I mean I think that like the uh golden ratios and Fibonacci sequences and um numerology and things like that have um for a long time fascinated and mystified people right and uh and no I I agree like um uh I I think there there are things like principles in physics and principles in um nature that if if we try uh if we try to measure them or calculate them they behave one way uh but we understand that behind our backs they they behave a different way. It's kind of like uh quantum mechanics and things like that, right? And and I think that there's there is this really fascinating component of things being orderly and yet chaotic um that it makes sense in one context but is totally like um like chaotic or um uh destructive in another way and I'm I'm really I'm I'm interested to see like I'm always interested to see artists um explore that um but especially in knives you know man there's like like 99% of knife making is chaotic uh there's nothing uh that is really so precise that you don't start off with chaos you're just refining something and using an exorbitant amount of energy to try to make something that seems seems perfect but really if you look close enough it's not ever that way and so I think that's probably like one of the the neurotic components of knife making and craft in general is just uh trying to make something perfect knowing that you'll never actually get there man you just put it in the most eloquent eloquent way I really like that yeah it is it is just this obsessive like hand sanding nonsense it makes no sense um but I think that's what I um I also appreciate about it it's it's each one is a like a fight on its own right um just to like put order to that chaos um and I maybe like that and I feel that that friction is is healthy yeah yeah I I don't think that uh I I don't think that can be overstated. I I think that um it is healthy it is healthy to uh take a walk on the wild side as it were um to be able to uh get right up against the uh the um the mountain that you're about to climb and figure out exactly what it is versus just like dreaming about things or um whatever um apprehensions people have. Like you have to be willing to do things and you have to be willing to um i r I think it really comes down to being Okay with being vulnerable towards life, right? Because like we we try to psych ourselves out that like we we're tough enough to like get out of a knife fight or something like that, or we're uh we're able to walk away from bad relationships, or we are um we're able to learn anything, or you know, whatever these things are, we like psych ourselves out. Um, but in reality, I think like people in general are scared to live in that edge of like, you know, people who ride motorcycles. I've always appreciated that, although we lost our son in a motorcycle accident, right? Um, I appreciate the fact that bikers um live in the space of like um life and death are part of the same circle, right? And and creativity and and living life is all part of the same circle. Death is a part of life, right? And creativity is a part of failing, and one portion of you dying, whether it's like expectations or um uh hope in certain things, and then another thing taking over and um allowing you to create, right? And it's that spark. Like as long as you have spirit, as long as you have life, you always have the ability to create those things. And if more people were vulnerable to that fact, I think that we'd see like a you know, more creativity, like more people that are not afraid to fail, um, but just like go out off headlong into a problem or a certain idea and create things. And to me, that's like a fascinating world to live in.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:34

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I like to fail fast. So I know. Yeah, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:13:41

It's like rip the band-aid.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:42

It's almost masochistic, you know? But um, yeah, it's it's for me it it it drives per like you said, it's a lot more meaningful life to live. Um I mean, it's just part of it. And I think you just get like you said, used to it and then like roll with the punches. Like now you're like ready for other struggles to come along because you know you can deal with them.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:13

Yeah. Yeah, no, I um I agree.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:20

But you know, I definitely um I'll I'll I'm gonna continue to always keep an eye on your work and um and appreciate your art form and everything like that. I mean, it's uh uh I know that in the world of having to like earn a paycheck and stuff, you probably have to get back to it. But um, you know, you know, when you come up with interesting stuff or you um um are interested in talking about like subcomponents of of art form and whatnot, um I'm more than happy to have you on the podcast again because I think that that that's something that we could spend a lot more time decoupling, right? Instead of talking about this amalgam of uh who um who you are through this length of time that you've been experiencing art and craft uh to be able to focus on like uh very specific components of of what you do. Um because I mean, man, uh you you it's it appears to me at least that you've lived multiple lifetimes um and gained a lot of experience. But that's cool, right? I mean, there's lots of stuff to talk about. It's just like you gotta you gotta be able to take the time and talk about that stuff. And I think that that's an inspiration to other people because um you'll you'll never know how much you can learn until you try. But when you try, you'll always learn that you really don't know a whole lot about anything. And um and I like talking to people who get to that paradigm where they're like, man, as much as I think maybe I know, I really know nothing. And I'm like, okay, that's a great conversation.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:57

The more I know, the more I know I don't know. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Totally, yeah, yeah. It's uh something that Steve and I were on the same page about, and he was right about you. You're like your smart cookie. Um, so yeah, I'd I it would be my pleasure. This is really, really awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:18

Yeah. Well, it's it it is a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:20

I could talk about nerdy stuff all the time. Yeah, yeah. Uh I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:25

Well, um, you know, uh welcome back anytime. I'll keep an eye on you. If you need anything, let me know. And it's been an incredible pleasure to have you on and talk to you.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:34

Awesome, great, Aaron. Have a great night. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:40

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved and God blessed.