SPEAKER_00 0:23

The shortest distance between two points is often unfair. Which is why I love talking to Alex here. That's my first repeat guest on the podcast. Alex has some perspective to my own personal growth and I have some of the show. But what's always interesting about Alex is how well he wears his own growth and uses that to constantly push his own. In behavior that's true to form for us, we can't stay still too long. And you'll get a front row seat to the meandering that manages to occupy most of our interactions. Maybe proving in some ways that the path less traveled is also an exciting one. Alex, it's great to have you back on the Good Old Boys Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Happy to be here again. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah. So oh man, since the last time we talked, a lot has happened, not only in my life, but in your life and knife life, and uh um I where to start? So uh I I'd like uh I'd like a kind of a a little recap uh since the beginning of this year. So uh we talked somewhere around Blade Show, Texas, uh ish uh time frame, a little bit before that, I think. Yeah. And uh you know that was a cool show and everything like that. You had gone to uh Blade Atlanta. And are you uh are you slated to go to Blade West this year?

SPEAKER_02 1:45

I am, yeah. That's that's coming up real quick, couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Uh yeah. Um and I can't remember, did you go last year? Uh huh. I did. What did you think of that? Because um I I had to drop out because of issues at home uh with kiddo and everything. Um but I'm I'm interested to know kind of what that the Utah experience is and what the scene looks like up there. And I think uh other people would benefit from that uh perspective too.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, um in my opinion, it is physically far enough removed from the other two shows that you get a completely different crowd. Um there weren't very many makers that I know that I recognized in in comparison. There were, I mean, plenty of the staples were there, but um it's I don't think I think maybe one of my kind of followers was there. Um, but for the most part, it was it was all it was all new exposure, which we've talked about that at a show is is as much a curse as it is a blessing, but it it wasn't it was different enough. Now, I I never went to the one when they had it in where was it, Portland before that. I never went to that one. Um, but I know that a lot of people were really unhappy with it, and I know that this one felt like a blade show. It kind of felt like the first time they did Texas in the current space. Um it is the smallest of the three, but it still had like constant foot traffic. It was it was very well attended, uh at least I mean visually from what I could see. Um it was it was pretty cool. It was it will be worth going again this year, especially now that I've adjusted my strategy a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah. Um that's it's like actually interesting. Like I I think about shows regionally and uh kind of what to bring, what finishes to use and things like that. And you know, I uh some people are like, you know, no, you just like you guys gotta do you, right? But I'm like, uh, if I'm at a knife show, I I I do want to be able to sell knives and you know, differ different regional clientele require different things. Like I could definitely see up in Utah, you have all of the greatest hunting states in America in Utah. And uh you know, my kind of crowd with like the hunters, skinners and things like that, I think knives like that would naturally do well. But if you like take me to Atlanta, man, like if I'm doing hunters and skinners and stuff, I mean nobody's doing like suburban hunting for for the most part. It doesn't do well. So yeah. Maybe serial killers or something.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Well, you know, that's that's also my problem, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Oh yeah. Well, um, but uh how how was the venue? Did you like it size-wise and everything like that? Did it feel, you know, uh cozy but big enough?

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Oh, it was huge. Um it was it's called the Salt Palace, and uh they used uh like a small portion of it, uh, much like they do in Texas with the uh the convention center. Um it's again, if memory serves, it's the smallest of the three shows. Visually, it certainly looks that way. Um, but I think they made good use of the space and it felt like a Blade Show. When it was in full swing, um, yeah, you're bobbing and weaving in and out of crowds, and you're like craning your head trying to find, you know, the people that you know and and and that kind of thing. So it it it had the same vibe. If you've been to a blade show, you will recognize the experience, it'll feel familiar to you.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah, well, that's cool. Um, I well, obviously this year it's not gonna work out. Maybe I can uh uh get on for next next year. Um, but I'll be at Blade Show, Texas, uh this coming year, um, and that'll be fun. And I'll be representing both my knife stuff, but also the podcasts there. Um, so that'll be cool. Um you know, uh something that I think about with like the the ambiance of a of a blade show is there's a certain murmur that you that you hear like all the time. It's like uh if you ever watch those old uh episodes of Antiques Roadshow where it's like they're they're mic'd up and everybody's talking, but you can still hear a lot of voices in a cacophony. There's kind of like that. It I don't know what it is about the energy at like big shows with you know thousands of people and whatnot, but I kind of like that. I like that just that little bit of white noise, knowing that everybody is talking about different things, and you know, people are coming by and um maybe once in a while you hear a voice pop out from the mix and you're like, Oh, I know who that is. That's not me. I'm not boastress or things like that, but um, I do know some iconic voices that uh have big belly laughs and stuff, and that's all I guess. I think that energy is something about shows the and show circuits that you know if you're just a a curmudgeon sitting inside of your house and doing stuff for orders, you really miss out on.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I agree with you. Um I think there there are plenty of makers out there that don't need to go to shows and in fact probably could do their own thing. You could you could probably say, okay, this is my blade show stuff, it's all available on my Instagram or my Facebook page, and then sell it all without having to leave the comfort of your home and spend all the money. But that's not what it's for. Uh and you and I have spoken to this point in the past. I think that going to a show feels like a uh vacation, almost like it's a knife maker's vacation because business is that work is done, business still has to be done, but you're you're just there to see people hanging out, have a good time, maybe score some cool handle material, you know? It's all the fun parts.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah. Well, and um I I I think that uh one of the things that people miss out on if you're if you're only making stuff in your own vein is the lack of ability to see other people's work. And and I'm not talking about like seeing other people's work for the sake of um kicking yourself for your quality or you know, or doing a comparison, like this is my competition next to me. But uh just being able to appreciate the the quality and craftsmanship. There's some amazing uh makers out there that I just admire. Like I always try to go uh spend a little bit of time each show uh going and looking around um and and seeing what's out there because sometimes I use that as inspiration. It's like this person has a great finish, or there's something sp like something that makes me want to be able to follow them um on social media if it exists. And um, you know, it's that it's an entire thing like we're we're we're at a great time in knives where we get to um we get to be a big think tank. And and that's something that I think about. Like I've I've stopped, I've stopped uh and matured past the looking at everybody else and dogging on myself for one reason or another, and use that more as the uh ability to have like the experience of just admiring other people. And I think that that's what's great.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

It's it no one, including yourself, wants to hear you complain about all the things that you could not accomplish. Um, better to spend that energy and the really invaluable opportunity, go around and check stuff out and ask people questions. Hey, how did you do this? You know, I it blew my mind. I was on the fence about buying a 14-inch grinding wheel at at in Atlanta. Um, and what really blew my mind was I talked to Tom Crine about it, and uh he was like, it's primarily what I use. Um, and it was serrated, which was my big hang up. He's like, Yeah, your belts will last longer. I don't have any issues with my grinds. I mean, Tom's got some of the cleanest grinds I've ever seen. Um and his vote of confidence was something that steered me in a direction I might not have otherwise gone. So I picked up the wheel. I'm still playing with it, I'm still like getting used to it. But um, were it not for the shows, that wouldn't have been a conversation I would have I would have had with him. Could I have messaged him and asked him a direct question? Absolutely, but it just wouldn't have come up, you know. So it's it's worth it to take advantage of the opportunity to just talk to these other makers. If you come back from a show and you don't have more tricks up your sleeve than you did when you got there, you're doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Yeah. And and I think that that's something also that you know, with with uh the motivation to sell knives, um, the being like the primary focus everybody's like, oh, a show is to sell knives. Like that's all I'm supposed to do. Uh, you lose you lose the mentality of being able to take advantage of the networking component, the knowledge component. And really, if I think about it, um, I uh in in in some of these shows, as I've you know, been a new show maker over the years. Um, I've lost money of going to the show, not selling, not selling out, you know, things like that, whatever. Like those things that if you focus on them, they're negatives. But if I pivot that thought process and I think about all the networking and knowledge I've gained and everything, I have always banked on those shows, like always banked on them.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's why I tell people every chance I get go. If you especially if you're a new maker, if you are just starting it out, if you've got like a drawer full of files and a and a bench vice, go to these shows because there's no substitute for putting your eyes on this stuff and your hands on it and talking to all these people. You don't get there without absorbing all that knowledge, and that's really that's that's the value of attending.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, my my very first dedicated dive show was actually one that the uh the hundred percenters uh group had put on in Plano, Texas. And you know, you're you're uh my like there's not that many at the show. Um, you know, maybe there was less than 20 guys, right? Maybe, maybe, maybe 12 total. And all all of them are like at the pinnacle of like doing everything by hand and sole authorship and whatnot, right? And you look at you look at their work, and if you base if you base that show off of like how like staying in knives and being motivated and everything, you'll quickly uh lose your the the luster, right? Um because it uh I don't know, like O Vinder is there, Johnny Stout was there, there's a few other makers that are just like phenomenal um out of the Texas area, and uh it was a good show. But it was also like you know, when you when I felt those knives, I was like, I went back and I was like, I'm doing something wrong. Because when when I felt their knives, um it they hmm, I I it's it's hard to describe, but I mean you know what it's like. Like when you feel a knife that is like it it hits on all those points, the balance is great, great, the ergonomics are phenomenal. Um, and and then you compare that to the price point and everything, I was like, well, I I can't really expect to sell you know a you know $800 to $1,000 knife or whatever, and and not incorporate these things that like to me they just feel beautiful and natural. Um, and so it that was really good for me. I I went back and I said, you know, something's something's not right. And I think it's uh you know, these things of like not contouring my handles uh to the best of my ability, the fit and finish could be better and whatnot. And I took a lot from that. Um yeah, but yeah, it's interesting. Um, kind of on that note, um, I want to talk to you a little bit more about the uh Bark River grind in. I know that we were talking about that a little like before we started, but um, you know, in the in the progression of like shows and experience and the culture of things, um, I've always been interested in the culture that Bark River um creates around their fans, um, and and also around the the maker culture, right? And and um my understanding is like so once a year, right, right, you you guys uh get together uh uh in Michigan at their their location, right? And there's a bunch of people and you grind knives and you know have camaraderie and whatnot, and you know, eat food and you know, eat, drink, and are merry. And I want to I want can you like talk to me a little bit about like that experience, like what it is, uh some of the you know um maybe lesser known things about it, and just kind of give the listeners a little bit more of an idea uh about what it is.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Absolutely. Um, and I don't, nor have I ever worked at or for Bark River. Um, Mike, Jimmy, I love you guys. I will do my best to speak on your behalf. Um what they do is throughout the year, and they actually do two of them. They do one in June and one in September, uh, and throughout the year, um, they set aside knife blanks from production, whether it's hey, we have a couple of extra auroras um instead of building them out, just set them aside for grinding, or um, here's this Bravo, and something weird happened at Waterjet and it's got a weird notch in it, so it's out of spec, but someone can grind it into something else, um, as like a project knife at grind in, so throw it on the pile. Um so when people show up for grind in, uh, you get in touch with Bark River, you ask for a spot for a ticket, they'll sell you one for I want to say it's just under 400 bucks. Um, and that includes the cost of the knife you're gonna build, uh, as well as uh the meals which are catered. It's I think it's like they do a light lunch and they they cater dinners um Friday night, Saturday. Um you show up day one, they say, okay, you're gonna go, uh you're all signed up, go to this table and pick out your knife blank. And you pick out your knife blank. Um once you find something you want to make or make into something else, um you they take you off to your handle material, which is a room that's like the size of my kitchen. It's enormous, and it's just full of everything from huge sheets of micarta to you know uh horn and bone and and stabilized wood, everything cool that you can think of. Um and you pick out your handle material. And there are some upcharges involved in some of that stuff. Uh, I mean, they're gonna charge you more for stag than they will for micarta, but that's just the way of it. Um so once you pick your stuff out, uh, you start your build. And they will, if you're if you know nothing or have no interest in physically doing anything yourself, that's fine. Uh because they walk you through just like it's uh a production knife. They'll take you over to where they're um fitting and drilling handle scales. Uh they'll get you um get your handles drilled and cut, um, and you can just stand there and watch the people do their thing. Or if you want, you can try and jump on a machine and play around a little bit. Um but they walk you through start to finish. Um Bark River does everything backwards. They put a totally finished handle on a knife and then grind the blade. Uh, it just suits their their convexing style the way they do things, it just works for them that way. Um, but you'll go through start to finish, they'll build your knife for you. Um another cool thing is they've always got a few custom makers hanging around to help out, like me. And uh part of the reason we're there is just relief, like, okay, if the the halfing line is really backed up, then I'll just grab someone out of the line, say, you come with me. And instead of them having to go down the steps, I will finish their handle out for them. Um but if you can kind of sweet talk one of those makers, whether it's me, Matt Martin, Donovan Phillips, uh, any of the regulars that show up, um, the Seven Forge guys, uh they will sometimes do cool stuff for you. I've Donovan is famous for tapering tanks for people while he's there. I'll do a hollow grind if I can find a machine that is suitable to that. Um, that kind of thing. Uh, and more importantly, much like a knife show, you're getting to meet all of these people that you interact with online all the time because they have a a really good community, the a couple of different Facebook groups that they run. And uh, you know all these people. You see them talk all the time and sharing photos and and rousing each other. And so it's like meeting all your all your knife maker buddies, all your knife friends in person and uh you know, eating and drinking and being merry, like you said. Uh it's a lot of fun, it's exhausting. You're always covered in dust by the end of it, but I would not miss one um if I had the choice. They're they're awesome.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah, that's pretty rad. I mean, it's uh it's interesting because um with the uh social media and everything, you have the ability to kind of kind of see what that culture is like, but then I like I see all these pictures from grind and and whatnot. I'm just like, man, that seems like an awful lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah, yeah, it is. It's as a knife maker, candidly, it's fun to play with someone else's belts. Um and I've never known Mike to be stingy about it, and I'm sure financially they do just fine that weekend. But like it, you know, if I'm doing a handle and I want to nail it for somebody and they're the customer, and they, you know, they want the best experience, the best product they can get. I get up past you know, 400 grit, and I'm burning a fresh belt for every handle I do. I'm not trying to stretch a 1200 grit belt to do a second handle, I grab another one because I want a perfect glassy finish on this handle and tang, I can get it that way. Um, because subconsciously I'm not worrying about the cost of the belt because they're not paying for it. And that would that would be a problem if there were like 12 Alex Harrisons there, but it just me doing handles for people at my pace one at a time is not enough to make a meaningful dent in their supply. Uh, it's just it makes a big difference giving people a better product, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah, yeah. And I um one thing I noticed about like the the community around Bark River is a lot of the time they're also um heavy consumers of their knives. And so if you think, if you think about it, um it's it's great marketing as well as community building, uh, because you know, these are the same people that are coming back to Bark River and you know, they get to see their operation, they get to know where their knives come from, and then they're also the ones that are then repurchasing blades and collecting them and whatnot. And uh I think it I think it's cool that they're willing to invest back in that culture that helps to support them and everything. It's a it's a great strategy, but more than that, I think it's a it's a great testament to to uh how much they appreciate their customer base.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

It is, yeah. Um and I think another thing I failed to mention is if you are a newer knife maker, if you are just getting into it, if you're really it doesn't matter what level you're at because they do everything so different there. It is like drinking through a fire hose, exposing yourself to so many different methods, uh not just their production stuff. I mean, you walk into their grinding room and production is going on, but then you've got Donovan Phillips and Matt Martin and Jimmy Stewart all standing at grinders doing stuff, and you can watch them do stuff ways that you know doesn't occur to you. Like, I mean, Donovan gets his tangs when he tapers a tang down to like six, seven thousandths of an inch, and he does it perfect every time. If I know how to taper a tang, I can taper a tang. When I was there and I had my apprentice with me, uh, I told her to watch Donovan because he can taper a tang. And that's the beauty of it. There's skills to pick up from everyone there. Um, Jimmy Stewart will show you the Bark River way to do something, as well as the Jim Stewart custom shop way to do something, and they're they inform one another, but obviously there's a there's a higher level of refinement and skill coming from Jimmy than from you know one of the guys that works online, um, just by virtue of the fact that those are two different tiers of product. And uh it's really cool to see that distinction and pick up all these tricks. I think I I learned about um oh, what's the stuff? Uh the Formax stuff, um sat and glow. The really low grit abrasive compound that you can load up a wheel with. I had no idea that was a thing, and they use it for everything. That's how they grind their blades past uh, you know, like 400 grit with satin glow. And um it's It's a Swiss army knife and it it it really makes a huge difference in your shop if you can incorporate it into your process. And it's stuff like that, tricks that you couldn't pick up uh if you didn't stand there and watch it, uh, that really make it worth the experience. It's a pretty cheap trip if you can get up there too. I mean, there are no nice hotels in Escanaba, so they're all cheap. I stay at the travel lodge. Um the the fee to get in, in my opinion, isn't that big because it includes the knife that you get to build, you know? Um it's probably more cost effective. You get more bang for your buck from a learning standpoint at grind in versus going to a show. Uh to both, but I think that's a better place. That's why I took my apprentice up there this last time, because she absorbed everything she possibly could and was a better knife maker for it at the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, that's rad. Um and I I mean, I I can imagine too, like the the networking component. Um, you know, I I'm I'm really big about when you have uh knife makers that are kind of in your whirl, right? Like um they like they have they have aesthetics that you like and uh they have a different way of thinking. And when you have like a group of people that you're friends with, um that's kind of like the tide that raises all boats. And you can just like brainstorm uh different ideas and things and and and ask them, which it's a little bit different, you know, than going to like one of the old timers and saying, hey, how do I do this thing? They're like, okay, well, you know, it's it's like this is the way that I do things, and you know, these are some different ideas. And I've always appreciated being able to talk to old guard knife makers about things, but but there's also like the portion of um of of like the the the being raised by your peers um that to me sometimes is a little bit more relevant to like what it is that we're doing inside of our knives, inside of this knife culture and whatnot. Um, and it it also I I feel a little bit less bad. Like if if there's something that I'm asking Steve Johnson about, that it's like, oh, how do you taper your tanks, Steve Johnson? Right. And he's like, Well, I do it this way. He'll still tell you, but then I feel bad because like he spent all this time answering a question and he's probably has everybody asking him a bunch of stupid questions all the time. Whereas I don't I don't feel as bad about something uh like asking you or Matt or something like that. Um, because there's there might be times when I'm doing something specifically and you're gonna ask it. Like there's I guess there's like a social exchange where we kind of all ask each other stupid questions. So it makes us the the makes the questions not so stupid, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Yeah, it exactly. It it's especially in that context, it's it's a more informal thing. Um, and it's and I consider myself on the novice end of the spectrum of people that show up to grind in. But when you're standing next at a grinder next to someone who's also at a grinder, it's more it's easier to just ask that, hey, how are you doing that? What are you what are you using? Or or like just stare at someone's wrists for a minute and it not be weird because you're trying to see how they're doing something. Um Donovan and I were talking and we uh we came up with this sort of ism uh to share with uh learners. And it's if you're grinding a blade, um it's your hips, your knees, your ankles. If you're shaping a handle, that's all your wrists. They're two you're using the same tool, but there are two very, very different skill sets and different motions, different things that you're doing. Um, and you don't really have that revelation until you're standing there watching someone else do the same thing uh in a different way, you know?

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, and I I came to that realization uh probably like the hundredth time that somebody asked me how to uh grind a blade freehand, right? Because it, you know, like with with with the newer knife makers, uh the the the concept of freehand uh seems like you know you're building the uh Sistine Chapel. And uh you know, it's like you know, they maybe they'd previously been using a jig, or uh maybe they uh you know are not just used to a single style of of hand grinding. And um, you know, to me, it yeah, it's like everything everything that is associated with grinding blades comes from core, right? Like your feet, your feet all the way up, and and then you know if you um I I think the best way to describe it for people who are listening is uh there's a few things that you want to be able to accomplish in grinding a blade, right? Um, you know, uh uh obviously it's the uh variability of um of being able to make minor adjustments to your grind and use your machinery to uh remove material, but it's also in maintaining that consistent flow from you know your your plunge all the way to your tip. Uh and that is a body motion. Um, and you know it requires being uh in tune with what the flow of your body is, how the grinder is re responding, how the steel is responding. And when you kind of get into that um and you can do freehanding, then you can go anywhere and grind. Um whereas if you if you're using jigging and a lot of tooling, then you lose the ability to um to have the kind of uh fine motor skills to just hop from grinder to grinder and do those things. So it's way more versatile. Like I don't knock um I don't knock jigs or using tooling or any type of thing like that. Um but yeah, not at all. I mean, and yeah, I like I I I I want to be like very clear with people. Like for me, it's like such a non-issue that um I don't think that like anybody would argue that a milling machine is cheating, right? But but technically you're letting a machine do a portion of the work for you that you you could do with a drill press or you could do with files. So um, you know, it's like if a if a jig helps to maintain consistent grinds and that is a part of your aesthetic and you want consistency, then by all means do it. If you want to do CNC or something like that, like by all means do it. It's like I don't I don't uh attribute a certain value system to doing everything by yourself, but um, I know that there's lots of um mentalities out there and I am but one.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Yeah, it's uh to me, it's about your end product. Um you owe it to your customers who are spending their hard-earned money on your uh product to make them the best thing you can. And if you with your skill set and your tools and your methodology make the best knife you can with a C and C machine, then that's what you should be doing. The only, in my opinion, the only Rocky territory you get into is if you are dishonest about that. Uh oh, I freehand grind everything uh because some people think that that's awesome, that's cool, but you're using a jig for something. Um if you are misleading about how you're actually accomplishing uh a task, then then you got a problem. But uh it's not that hard to be transparent and no one's gonna care. You're not gonna you're not gonna oh if people knew that I was using a jig, they wouldn't want to buy my knife. There's one guy out there somewhere that will honestly have that feeling. They're having a conversation about your knife with you in the first place because they like it and you're already there. So don't let that be a hang up for you as a as a newer maker or as a developing maker or as a seasoned maker. Make the best knife you can. How you do that is incidental, in my opinion. I think you and I kind of see eye to eye on that.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah, yeah, I think so too. Um so so like the natural progression of uh Bark River grind-ins is kind of in what you've been doing uh behind the scenes with with uh your like drop culture, right? Yeah, and um so for anybody who's interested, I I can't say that's a really a new thing. The drop, as it were, is uh you know common across the industry, but you know, basically the collection of a of a bunch of things and then a sale all at the same time, so people could just like fist fight to get to them. And in the knife culture, uh there are there are a few companies that do drops really well for knife makers. Um, and you know, DLT is one of them, of course. Um, and uh my understanding is like you just had one, and I kind of want to go through some of the experience of uh you know preparing for drops, how to get into them, what what the um what the after effect is if you're okay talking about that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Um so I just did, I I sent a newer model to um Jason at DLT, um and we dropped a small number of them. I think there were less than 50 of them. Um and they are not sold out. I didn't expect them to sell out right away. They are, as far as I know, moving. Jason is the kind of guy, he's not gonna he would let me know if there were a problem. And he has kind of dispelled this illusion to me early on. Um if you're not selling out right away on a drop as a newer maker, that doesn't mean that you're a failure. And I have internalized that and rationalized it to the point where I accept that. Um because frankly, the guy who knows the business is still confident in the product. Um so that's one thing you don't, it's much like a show. That's the biggest thing to get out of your head. Don't worry about how your drop is gonna do. Worry about whether the guy who bought your product from you is happy. And if he is, then uh you don't have an issue. Um the people who have them in their hands are pretty happy with them. Um, the ones who don't yet will be when they get them. I was happy with them when they left my shop. I made one for myself and carry it around, and I like it a lot. Um, so those are the things that I have to remind myself anytime I I I'll get on DLT and look like, oh yeah, they're still they just got them in stock. Um on the reverse end of that, um, it's nice for me to be able to tell someone, yeah, if you're interested, they're in stock. DLT's got them. I'm not it's the only way to get one of my knives is not show up at a show or wait X amount of months on my list or try and snag one on the secondary. They're available, they're out there, and there is something to be said for that. Uh supply and demand has like a sweet spot, you know, on the bell curve. Um I I don't know whether that is the flavor of answer you were getting at. It's just kind of what came out. Is that kind of what you were angling towards?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Sure. I can ask follow-up questions. Yeah. But yeah, um, so yeah, when it when it kind I, you know, I don't really think so much about um like whether drops sell out or things, you know, they're not Taylor Swift tickets, right? Right. Um, yeah, you know, and that's something that I I think that people have to be aware of is that, you know, regardless, like regardless of whether you're selling them at shows or selling, like listing them yourself online or whether you're working with a a dealer uh to do drops or whatever, like the the sales component again is something that is ancillary to the work that you're putting out. Um uh you know, if you if you sell to somebody like DLT and they buy all of your stuff and they s and they they they sell out immediately, great. You probably have a repeat uh a buyer, right? Yeah. If if you if they buy your stuff and take a risk on you and it takes like two, three years for them to sell them, then probably that relationship is not going to be as great. Exactly. But you know, and I I think that that's one thing that um I've tried to convey through the show is that uh dealers play a really important part, I think, in the ecosystem of marketing and of uh proliferating a maker's work and being able to connect people. They are like liaisons, and yeah, they make money, they make money, right? Um that they wouldn't be in the business and and do this stuff if they if they weren't.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

But like I I've the early days of knives, I I I heard people like turning turning their nose up to dealers all the time. Like if they were at a show and a dealer came by and said, Okay, hey, I'll buy you know what you have and you know, you know, ask for a discount or whatever, uh, so they buy all of them, people would be like, you know, know what? Like, I I'm not gonna do that. I I could sell them at at home. And then they spend the next like six months selling their own stuff, and they could just sold to like a DLT or something like that. Like if a dealer's coming up to you and being like and willing to buy your stuff, uh, then I I consider that a feather in the cap. Um I I agree. Yeah. But I mean, kind of on that note though, um I I see the size of drops um are pretty variable, right? I mean, when somebody is really aggressive like you, you might have like you know, 35, 50 to 50 blades or whatever that you're spending a considerable amount of time you know storing and and uh building for a drop. Um there's others that maybe they get 10 knives out there just kind of like test the waters with a uh with a dealer. And uh I I see the lot of variability. Like what I I saw like the kind of build-along process when you were like updating that you had drops, like when you were, you know, kind of kind of socializing that. What like yeah. That's a lot of knives. It's a lot of knives to invest in, it's a lot of knives to make. It's like you have a lot put into that stuff. Like what what goes through your head when you're just like beating out uh a bunch of those blades and and finishing them all for a drop itself?

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Well, uh when I hit the sweet spot, I'll tell you. Um, the first one I did for Jason was 10 pieces, and I had never done anything like that before, and they were very involved builds for me at my skill set at that time. So it took me forever, and it was laborious, and uh it was a lot. Uh, this latest run that I did, because I sent him about 50 crow, and then I sent him another 35-ish patrol scalpels that he has not dropped yet, but he's going to. So all at once I sent him like 85-ish knives. That was too much. And I learned that now after the fact, after I had done it, like me doing still in my shop part-time because I still have my job, working at a breakneck pace, cranking out 85 knives, took me about six weeks. It was entirely too much. That being said, it also taught me that doing 20, 25 pieces not that big a deal. That's a manageable quantity for me with my methods, and it's not that's not where every single step becomes frustrating and and boring and so on. Um that's that's about the number that I'm number of knives that I'm building for this uh show coming up. And those aren't all the same, like the crow where they're every knife is different, but working on 25 knives at the same time, um I can I think for me right now as a part-timer, um, a begrudging part-timer, that's kind of that's kind of my sweet spot. Um, and every maker will have that. You will at some point, with if you're working in quantity, you're doing small batch production, bite off more than you can chew. And when you're building a quantity that's like, okay, this is not fun. I'm not enjoying this. I just spent an hour cutting and champering pins. That's that's when you know to back off. Um, and as time goes by, that number may go up. Uh, but because it did for me, but listen to yourself because if you're not having fun, then what's the point, right? Um find your sweet spot and and do it that way. Because once you do, then you're you're and you're cooking with gas, you're having a good time, uh, you're enjoying yourself in the shop, you have you've got a challenge, and you can uh kind of dial in your methods within that. Like, I know how to grind a crow. I grind a crow better now because I just made 50 of them, right? The the first one I made had good grinds, the 50th one had really good grinds, and they're all up to spec. But not only did that 50th one have the best grinds within that margin, it probably took the least amount of time too, because of repetition and because of you know, building that muscle memory and really intimately understanding that build and how it is. Um, it it'll do that for you. So building stuff in small badges will make you faster, it'll make you more comfortable biting off uh big chunks of work like that, and it will teach you what's too much, what's your sweet spot. Um, that's something you pay attention to. Don't just, oh, last time I did 10 knives, so now I gotta do 15. Last time I did 15, now I gotta do 20. Don't keep ramping up because you think you have to ramp up. You will hit the point of diminishing return.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah. Um I for most shows, and I I know these are like rookie numbers, uh, but for most shows, I've usually hit under 10 knives that I've brought. Um, I you know, and I don't know whether that's like like I I I used to get into the uh mentality where I would bring of like a few of everything that I thought I could make, right? And you know, when you're talking about um some of the materials that I was using and then doing like bolster work and you know uh hand rub finishes and everything, like it just takes the time that it takes. And so um there there are certain there were certain limitations I was putting on myself because um uh I I don't know. I don't know why. Um but like uh like I have this run, like I have a show. Um it's actually this weekend as we're recording this thing. Uh, but I I I I can't say I waited till the last minute. I waited until I had the time to actually make stuff for the show, and then more stuff, more life stuff got in the way. Um but I I've been kind of like trying to figure out um how within a few days can I have uh everything that I build to specification and yet still have enough numbers to provide variety because I'm like, well, okay, if I if I only have like five knives, then I can I could just bring those. But I'm I am looking at a few things like um what well, uh am I bringing any type of knives that that offer variety in in like my price point and the finishes that I do and things like that. And um I I just didn't think it was fair to not bring anything or to only bring like a very small amount. So kind of what I what I think about is like my processes and how I could still do the kind of quality that I'm looking at. And uh I there's this like weird paradigm when you're kind of like stressed, stressed to do something, right? There's a deadline, you're like you're right around the corner. Innovation happens in the time when like the tiger is right by right by you, ready, ready to pounce, right? And uh and I felt like you know, one thing that I I've been thinking about doing for a while is some uh some bead blasting or media blasting finishes, right? Um, and uh one thing that I've always noticed with small knives is that sometimes, depending on what your hand size, uh, they can be hard to hold on to. So, you know, like things like lanyard, uh lanyards, ergonomic grips, you know, how you do things uh can can change that. But one great thing about um about a beaded finish um is that it's very tactile, especially when wet. Um and you know, like there's there are like there's pros and cons, right? Like there's a satin finish is a really great sweet spot because it it's not a really brittle finish and that it gets like really scratched up and everything, but um it also is reasonably um um easy to handle. Uh and and when you go down to like a bead or media finish, like oils and things like that, um, you know, you see them on the knife. And so you know you got to clean it up or they get scuffed, or you know, the sheath in parts it's a color or whatever. Like there's all sorts of like things that you have to like look at and say, hey, like the pro versus the con of a finish. But I've actually really enjoyed the process of learning uh that uh of like what I can do with the base finish being blasted, right? And then and then other things I can do, like you know, uh doing a bead finish and then uh tumbling it and doing like an acid wash or things like that. Like there's all sorts of other things that you could do. Not everything has to be like the most laborious hand rub finish. Um, that you know, people don't want to pay the price tag uh for the time it takes to do that stuff. And um not every knife requires that. You know, some people like don't want to buy a knife or use a knife because they think it's too pretty. Like you put a lot of time in it, they'll buy it and they'll put it away, but they won't use it because, you know, it does have that, you know, that thousand or twelve hundred grit uh hand rub finish and you know, really shiny bolsters and stuff. So I kind of think about That as like what's emerged out of some of these processes of speeding up and I'm slowing down and thinking about well, hey, is the way that I've made knives the only way to make them, or is there you know other finishing techniques that I can use um that that lend themselves more to a market that I want to carry my knives and use them every day versus collect them, you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I and you gotta remember you and I make knives very, very different, and I admire the lengths you go to to hand finish a piece. You do a lot of hand finishes, and I don't. Uh I have done them, I can do them, they're not my preferred method. Um but you don't hand finish a knife to cover up a crappy satin grind. You, Aaron, start with a perfect satin grind and then hand finish. So when you're talking about adjusting your methods for time constraints, price constraints, or to just kind of meet a different demographic, meet a different target, um, you gotta remember that if you make knives as cleanly as you do, then a satin finish, like a belt satin, is still acceptable. And it's still it's not inferior in any way because it is very difficult to get a clean belt satin. There are people out there that will do a hand rub to cover up a less than perfect belt satin. And because I've seen your belt finishes, it if you can come right off the grinder at whatever grit and have a good looking satin, you've got something going for you. And that takes just as much, if not more, skill. Um, it just takes less time, which it's really only only a benefit for you. It's just like the uh the way I do my handles, unless I have some specific reason to hand rub a handle, uh, I just uh I don't. Um I use slack belts all the way up to 2,000 grit. I use the Bark River method for finishing handles. Um, and I go from 2000 grit off the slack belt straight to the buffing compound. And it's not that that is the easy way, because it's not easy. It is for me because I've developed the skill, but it took me a long time to teach myself how to get into all these weird curves and irregular organic shapes with different belts uh to get those scratches out of there. But now that that's something I'm comfortable with, um, if it makes a clear finish, it makes a clear finish. And if it looks good, then how do you shake a stick at it? You know, if you can take a micarta handle off the belt at 2K and go straight to the polishing wheel, polish it up, and it's glassy smooth and it looks done, you don't have any latent scratches. How can you say that just because it took less time, it's not as good or it's not worth as much? So you gotta rewire your brain to think of quality of product, not uh, you know, intrinsic value of a given method. Those are two different things.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Yeah. Well, yeah, and there's you know, there's uh like with these witches' fingers, I you know, I I got eight out and everything like that. Well, but you know, like uh the thing about those is uh they they're modeled off of cheek knives for caping, right? A lot of my knives come from hunting type of use and everything. And so like when you're when you're caping animals, you have to get up in the nostrils sometimes and get all the you know the skin out and whatnot to be able to you know send it off to tannery. And and so there they're many scalpels. Like, I mean, every like I have lots of renditions of scalp-y things. And um there one thing I did with those is that I wanted to do a skeletonized thing, which I don't do a lot of. And right, and there's a lot of dynamics to skeletonized that you don't think of. Like I uh I have slices all up and down my thumb because I took a skeletonized, like not finished, finished, and was like fitting sheets and doing prototypes on what I wanted them to be. And off the uh surface grinder, they were so sharp at the edge that I was like slicing up my thumb, right? And I and I looked at it, I was like, there is no way, like that's the first thing that I'm gonna address when I get uh done with these things, is I'm gonna knock all those corners off and make it incredibly uh incredibly smooth in the hand, right? And you don't think as much about that because really like when you handle stuff, because if you put a handle on it, uh that covers up everything from the Ricasso down to the end of the knife. And so, like in fixed blades and whatnot, there's there's things that you don't think about. But you know, um, like if you like in handling versus skeletonized. But one thing that I I actually did uh I used it quite a bit in in making slip joints is using a a fiber wheel. I mean, it's basically a scotchbrite wheel to soften the edges of the tang uh on on uh slip joints, right? Uh so you know, like uh you have your your kick and everything, and if you if you can soften it a little bit, it makes the action a lot smoother. So you don't do it too much, but you do it just enough. And and a a uh an ultra fine scotch bright wheel on the buffer helps that, and you can just zip it off real quick. Um but with those uh skeletonized uh um designs, I can knock off the corners of those in the same way that I was knocking off the corners in the uh in uh slip joints, and it made for a very smooth um finish. So I did all those things, and then I media blasted them. So, like, you know, I think that the the bevels uh were up to 400 grit before they get uh media blasted, and all the corners are knocked off, and all the uh lanyard holes are chan uh chamfered and everything, and you know, you have to think about what that base thing is, and then your finish is just kind of like an aesthetic thing on top of that. It's not really meant to hide anything.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

I agree. Um, I think you're and now you're getting into a discussion of of function and form and those things kind of coexisting. Um and I know to to the same point, I uh I started doing um kind of rounding off or crowning the spines uh on my fixed blades, like the spine of the of the blade forward of the handle. Um and it makes a big big difference when you rest your thumb there. It's it's little little stuff like that that makes a big difference. Uh, and it's you have to learn that the hard way. You have to finish that knife, put your hands on it, and say, uh, that's not super comfortable. I need to I need to think of a way to remedy that. But it also has to fit within your uh your fit and finish methods. You can't take that finished knife, lay it flat against the plate, and then roll it all the way till it's flat again. You'll get a you'll get a perfectly rounded spine, but you'll also scratch the crap out of your, you know, the flats on your blade. Um there's a lot of little finesse stuff that you kind of have to teach yourself through trial and error. Uh and really, I think when you're getting a custom-made knife and when you're getting a knife from someone who's been doing it for a while, that's what you're paying them for. It's the little stuff that they have developed and and learned that that makes such a huge difference that nobody else would have ever figured out any other way except to make hundreds and hundreds of knives, right? Um so it and you may not notice it, you may not know what happens, but it's it's a reality during the building process. And the when you get that tool that you put in your hand for the first time, and your hand just melts around it, that's what that's what you're paying for, and that's how those things uh come to fruition. Um, the you know, Loveless rounding off the choil forward of his guards on his dropped hunter. You don't touch that. Your hand doesn't go there. It's it's not a user interface part of the knife, it's just a detail that one aesthetically looks awesome, and two fits into his philosophy of you know the only sharp thing on the blade on the knife is the edge. Um and a detail like that is something that sets a true seasoned craftsman apart from a hobbyist, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah. Well, yeah, because there's there's also all sorts of like tells to a maturity level of a maker, I think. Um, you know, uh I mean grind grind lines uh being even is like a pretty straightforward thing. But you know, there's lots of uh there's lots of um makers that don't think of those things. Like if you like it doesn't change the functionality of a knife if uh they're you know a thousandths off in geometry or something like that, or a few thousandths even. Um but there but there are there are elements that you can see where um if if you think about a knife built from start to finish and you have parameters that you have to follow, um, you know, constraints on design or principles that you have, uh a very seasoned knife maker is going to hit all of those, and anything less than that is going to be skipped, you know? And uh I think that that's one thing that I've always appreciated about um top-tier makers is uh there's there's never a situation where uh things leave the leave their shop or whatever and do not meet the set like the standards that they personally set for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Everything on that work product is intentional. Every surface has attention paid to it. There are no shortcuts in any of the steps. Guys like uh Jimmy Stewart, Jim Skelton, Matt Martin, Donovan Phillips, because he keeps coming up, um, any of the real hard hitters, and then you know, more to your circle, um, guys like Gary Langley, guys like uh um oh who were we just talking about? Steve Johnson, uh, you know, Steve Johnson. They've set themselves apart that way uh because of that unflinching attention to the detail and adherence to the standards that they set and doing everything their one right way every time. That's how that's how they develop that reputation for having these flawless pieces of artwork that they create.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

Yeah. Um I actually funny kind of like circumstance around um understanding people's um like their their level of detail or whatever. And then I'm also thinking about price point is um there's a there's a new group that um I'm on on Facebook that's uh fixed blade fanatics and fiends or something like that. I forget what the the name is exactly, right? And you know, uh some of the the custom slip joint guys um uh wanted to start that to talk about uh fixed blades, uh but you know, kind of from the context of they're already used to um uh slip joints, right? And um uh Trip Miller is a collector. I've had him on the show. Um he was selling some knives for a friend and uh uh James Sponagle, I think he's in Tennessee if I no, maybe Virginia. I can't remember exactly where. Um uh I bought a a dropped hunter uh from from Trip through this thing, and uh and I I looked at it, it was a a phenomenal build. Like every way, shape, and form, it is an I iconic dropped, right? Um, you know, taper tang is perfect, and his mirror polish is perfect, his solders uh on the guard look great, um, you know, just everything. There's not there's not a uh any scratches because it's a mirror polish, but there's nothing that's out of place. And I I went and looked out on his website, and this guy is selling uh the that same type of thing for less than $450.

unknown 56:20

How?

SPEAKER_00 56:21

He's makes the knives that he wants to make and he prices them the way that makes sense to him. I actually um I went I took it I took it on a uh the on this uh gator hunt that I did recently and it was it was useful in some ways. This is not a like a large uh animal uh by any means. Like it was like six and a half foot alligator that I uh ended up getting. Uh so I didn't really need anything that big. I actually used my scalpel um to test out some of the ergonomics on um on a reptilian creature. Uh because I've I've used them, I've used them in deer and whatnot, but it's a little bit different uh trying to skin scaly things, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

That's just gratifying using your knife for stuff too. I get that.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Yeah. Um, but um it's always like research and development for me, right? Um but um I uh um I used the knife and then I I called him up and I was like, hey, you know, I don't I took a picture with your with uh your knife that you made and the skater and everything. I thought it was real cool. You want me to send it to you? And we were talking about things, and he's asking me questions about uh different steel types and things like that that uh I'm you know I'm using as a younger maker and asking me questions. And I'm I just was the one to talk to him and say, dude, I appreciated uh the the craftsmanship of your knife and it was great to carry and everything like that. And um I I sometimes wonder uh with with people that make knives uh and to the standard that they do, how how they can manage to make them so affordably. Like $450 to me is crazy. I know lots of like the the top like top top end um drop drop toner uh makers are usually selling for sixteen fourteen, sixteen hundred, two thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Um and they're worth that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Yeah. And and he is like four hundred and fifty dollars. Um, I thought it was insane. Um I would have paid, I would have paid twice that easy for that same blade. Um, it was really really beautiful work.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Yeah, I remember seeing the photos of it and thinking that uh yeah, I should have beat you to that sales post. It was I was a little envious. But now that I know that, I'll probably reach out to the guy to see if I can have something made.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Yeah, well, that's um it was actually my first dropped hunter. You know, I've I've I've handled a bunch and everything like that. And uh I've I I just have never actually personally owned one. And so um I for my for my like meat hook hands, um, I I've thought, you know, I I like the aesthetic and I like the fit in my hands so much that I actually think I'm gonna start collecting drop tunters from uh from people, like just just drop tunters.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

Um when are you gonna make one?

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Um, I don't know. You know, I I've been a holdout on uh doing a bunch of tape or tang work um because when I when I got started, it was like every knife that I made, so uh an old guard would say, Well, it looks nice, but it would look better with the tape or tang. And I was kind of like, you know, like uh it's not always necessary. Like I skeletonized my my uh uh handles and stuff and reduce in weight other ways that I think uh still maintains the thickness and integrity and whatnot. And I I I kind of like the look too of a like a full a full tang. But I also I also really appreciate taper tanks. But you know, I've tapered quite a few tanks um uh before, and the some of the weight distribution components I'd are kind of marginal uh compared to skeletonizing a handle, um, you know, reducing weight that way. So for me, it's an aesthetic choice, um, probably more than it is a weight distribution choice. And I I might be wrong, but you know, uh there's there's only so much weight you can reduce from a blade. It's not like tapering a tang like halves the weight, really. Um it doesn't seem to be that that much of a difference for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

You you you are wrong. And I'm gonna think less of you as a person and as a man for it. Um what I'm hearing is uh after I finish building out my new workshop next month, uh, I'm just gonna have you up and we're gonna we're gonna ruin a bunch of drop point hunters and see if we can and make some that are that are kind of cool. You're overdue for a visit anyway, so that's that's what we'll do. Um on a serious note, yeah. I I like to do both. Every handle that I do is skeletonized pretty heavily and uh you know a bunch of weight relief drilled into it, um including the tapered tangs. And as we've talked about before, I very often hang my hat on how light my knives are. Uh, I don't think that as long as your balance is good, I think as light as you can get it is is the goal. And I I don't like necessarily having a big chunky knife in my hand. I'm not that guy. I know that's personal preference, and there are people who would say otherwise, but um, in my opinion, having a tapered tang makes a huge difference from a balance standpoint and a weight relief standpoint. So it's it's my preferred way to make a knife. I can't, you know, I don't try and like talk people into uh you know upselling them into a tapered tang, but it's that's one thing that's worth it, in my opinion. Um what I would tell you to do, uh in all seriousness, Aaron, the next time you get a chance to build a fixed blade that's not like super tiny, like your your witch's finger, um, build two and make the only difference in those, whether or not there's a tapered tang. Give them the same handle profile, use the same material, same height and grind, same thickness, everything. Get them as close as you can, except for that tapered tang, and just feel them. Uh, and decide uh whether or not uh it it is it is worth the extra effort for you, decide whether or not you enjoy that or it's something that you prefer to to omit because uh you're the only person that knows what an Aaron Lavier knife is supposed to feel like. So uh that's I mean, you gotta make that call, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

Well, yeah, and I mean it's not me knocking tape or tanks. Like, I mean, I um I I appreciate them for sure. But what I'm saying is like if if if you take all things all things into consideration, um the majority of the of the weight distribution that you can take off of a blade, right? So I mean whatever thickness it is, is in the amount of material that you remove from the bevel and the amount of uh uh material that you remove from the handle, right? And wherever your center of gravity is is like the sum total of your balance between those two. Right. Um plus plus your blade geometry and everything like that. And I know I'm using a lot of terms here that I'm like, I'm I'm kind of like uh marginalizing like the entire process of uh balance and aesthetic and everything, but like I'm kind of focusing on uh a kind of an idea, right? Um so if if you if you just taper a tang, right? Like just straight taper it, maybe like your holes are there for your pins and everything, um, and and that's it, then the amount of weight that you're removing is not exceptional. Um I mean it's not I mean about as much as you remove it from a bevel, depending on what your blade uh um your you know, like your bevel lengths and everything like that are.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

Um yeah, a lot of it depends on how much handle you've got on that on that given knife. Yeah, but you know how thin you're taking.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you want to go with like a um if you want to go with a standard taper um, you know, rather than like a very thin one, then um, you know, how much how much material you're actually removing. Skeletonizing and tapering together, like figuring out how to augment the the uh the the taper and everything so it's structurally sound, but then also has a taper, and then you're also removing additional weight because of skeletonization. That that's the sweet spot to me, uh, versus just it would look better if it was tapered. Yeah. I mean, I I see lots of knives that you know don't have tapers on them that look really great. Um, and that's that's more of like the idea, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

So when you come out here, um, let's do an experiment then. Let's make a couple of knives with different variations. Let's make the same knife. Let's make like four drop point hunters, you know, and everything from no weight relief, no tapered tang, up to weight relief holes and a tapered tang, and we'll build them out exactly the same. Uh, and then we'll just we'll measure them, we'll put them on a scale and see how much of a difference the X, Y, and Z method makes. I think that would be that would be a worthwhile experiment that would justify us, you know, making a bunch of cool knives for ourselves, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

Yeah, we got I'll bring the bourbon. Cool. But you know, it's it's it's interesting to me though, because I uh so much about knife making is anecdotal, right? Um it's like you know, people say like this this would be better with a taper tang, or this would be better this way or that way or whatever, you know, flat grind versus hollow grind. And like I I don't know if there's a lot a lot of science, like there's not Laren Thomas's around to go over every aesthetic choice of a knife, like what what's what's better for a finish, a satin or a blast or you know, or a polish. You know, uh Gary Langley uh and I talked a little bit about the uh concepts of of high polish as it relates to blades. And I I do agree in this sense that in in uh finishing out high carbon blades uh especially or or lower um lower stainlesses, that the the higher the polish you can achieve on that, the the smaller the porosity is, and therefore it tarnishes uh at a reduced rate, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

Um But you know, other than that, um being kind of like a mechanism of the old guard using uh steels that are not kind of like what we have now. Um a polish at this point can be an aesthetic choice uh alone versus a necessity because you don't want everything like tarnishing up and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, I use primarily AEBL, that's my steel, and it's not easy to get that stuff to rust. It's as long as you take marginal care of that knife, you're never gonna have that problem. Um, but AEBL also takes a lot of different finishes really well. And um if someone wants to pay me to hand polish a mirror finish on a blade, I'll do it. But I'm not gonna feed them a line about the increased corrosion resistance. If they bring it up, I'll tell them yes, technically that's true, but you're talking about diminishing returns on on an already magnificent stainless steel. Um and that goes back into the conversation about just being honest with your customers. Uh it it's that's one thing that has absolutely changed with the times as as we as an industry have moved towards more modern steels, stainless steels, like stain-resistant steels, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Yeah. Um, yeah, I I'm I'm actually kind of interested. Um, something that I've been thinking about is is some of the choices that I make in steel as it relates to how uh like the aesthetic of my knives and how easy it is to finish them out. Like I've been I've been on S30V for quite a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, like I uh it is almost impossible to get that stuff rusty, right? I mean, it is it is uh it's a really great steel. Um but it is very difficult to finish out to like high high grits. Um it takes a lot of time. And all all what you see in all my all my high satin finishes and everything, it's all s30b. That's insane. Yeah, but it's still it's I mean it's time consuming. And so like what I but kind of in this like odd uh like the serendipity of making knives, what I've learned from that is how to use more of my machinery to help get the finishes, like get it to a place where I can't hand sand it um or finish it, finish it out. So when you when you're seeing like my um higher satin belt finishes and whatnot, um a lot of that comes from uh my desire just to not sit there for four or five, six hours per blade and hand sand because I hate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

I'm like I don't blame you one bit. I know we're talking in circles, but I think there's I think there's a lot to be said for a well done, clean belt satin. It's not easy, it's not something you should shake a stick at, and it is a show of skill.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

Yeah, well, I think that um kind of going back to um the idea of you know you centering yourself for grinding, um, when you're trying to do a a hand, like a hand finish or a hand grind on a uh on a satin finish like that, um, the consistency of your body is really paramount because you know I I I almost kind of like lean into it, like I drag my body across it, so I stiffen everything up and then drag the entire body uh kind of like you know, it starts starts kind of in the hips, but in the upper leg and then moves there as I sway with it. So um and and that's one of the ways that I'm like I my body is the grinding jig, and I have to figure out ways to remove variables if I want to get that consistent pattern in scratches and everything like that across it. And any little bit of warble or anything, it's gonna cause facets that you do not want there. And the good thing is that there is always tricks to get um get rid of those if you need to, right? So you can take uh I mean you can do like a let's just say a 600 grit uh satin uh like belt finish, and then you can you can run a scotch bright on it. So if you if you get facets, you run a scotch bright on it, and then you go back and very lightly touch it again on your a fresh 600, and then you've reset your grind again. So you know there's there's ways that you can kind of finesse it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:13

Yeah, it's and there's there's more than one way to do it. Um I my grinds got a lot better when I started paying. I I started going closer to finish with 120, which is my first grit that I do. Um and I like I I look at my 120 grit grinds and I say, okay, could I stop now and have a passable 120 grit satin? And if the answer is yes, then I move on. I don't do 120 grit satins, I go at least to 220. But uh the point is I'm not trying to clean something up on that step with the next belt up. Uh and if you build that habit, it does make cleanup easier. Because once you, if your bevel's perfect at 120, all you're doing is polishing. You're just you're just changing the surface finish as you go up. And you can even you can go straight to a trizac after that, and which makes it that much easier. Because you know how Trizacs are, they're weird about removing material, they're awesome. Um I don't even use I used to religiously rely on my um uh Scotchbrite belt. That was the last step that I would do on a satin. And I kind of just drifted away from it. I don't I I don't find it necessary anymore because I have I have my surface finishes dialed in to my satisfaction, uh, whether it's on the Tri-Zact or a 400. Those are usually only two settings these days, either I'll do I'll finish it off on whichever trizact I have, uh, or just a 400 grit belt. And uh I've been pretty happy with my results lately.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

Yeah, well, one thing that I've uh I've come to accept about Scotch Brite is that it is a magic eraser, um, but uh part of the problem with that is that it also very slightly washes out clean lines.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:04

A little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, so I mean, uh it's it's great and it has its application, but if you if if your aesthetic choice is to have crisp termination of lines, then it's really difficult to necessitate a scotch bright. Um, if you can figure out the components or mechanisms to get a clean grind, then you don't need to magic eraser it and then you know try like I there's no uh I what I used to do like you know quite a few years ago is I would grind my bevels, right? And then I would magic magic erase it with the scotch brite. And then in order to get crisp lines again, I would throw it on the surface grinder and I would shim the blade under the bevel, and then I would use use that instead. And I was like, Yeah, I well, it does work, but you know, then also you have like uh some some like a lot of things can go wrong when you're surface grinding. And yeah, like so like for me, it was like I mean, I destroyed a lot of blades that way, uh, more than I care to admit. But you know, you can shim things up and you can use that uh process. So you get you know, you get the dimensions where you want to, the grinds on the bevels and everything like that is where you want it to be, and then you shim it up and you surface grind it and you can bring you can restore flats. But if you're trying to do it without doing that methodology, you know, you put it on the flat platen or whatever, then you start you start diminishing your um your your finish, like your fit and everything, the geometry of the blade, and it's no longer like this um this meta meta-geometry, right? It's I don't know what you actually call that, but you know, like the that the facets of like this is supposed to be flat and this is supposed to be curved, and this handle area is supposed to be flat and curved and everything. And when you start when you start focusing too much on a single element, then you you start making it way more difficult on yourself, and you're just always chasing a mistake versus you know figuring out a way to do things right the first time, and then you can make other aesthetic decisions.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:10

If you start clean and you stay clean and you don't move on to the next step until what you were just doing is clean, then you don't have to play cleanup. Um, I remember Skelton telling me, and this blows my mind, this was like such a cool like indication of his dedication to what he does. Because I anyone who's never seen his stuff or never handled it up close, Jim Skelton's fit and finish is perfect. And I remember him telling me that when he's doing flat grinds, if he's got a knife that has uh you know a swedge and a primary bevel, so that's a total of four bevels on the knife, right? One two on each side. The very last thing he does, if he's doing an 800 grit satin, he puts a brand new 800 grit belt on his grinder, takes one pass on that bevel with it, takes it off, puts a new 800 grit belt on, takes one pass on the swedge, takes it off. He burns a fresh 800 grit belt for one pass on each facet of that knife, and that's how he gets his grind lines crispy, crispy, crispy. And it's it's unbelievable him telling me that. I'm like, dude, how much money are you spending on belts? He's like, You don't want to know. But it it clearly is a method that that works for him because his grinds are perfect. And uh, if if that's the case, how do you shake a stick at it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Well, yeah, and uh yeah, I I actually when when he moved uh from Texas to the East Coast, um, right before that, I was up at his shop helping him with uh band saw or something like that. I forget what it was. Um his his shop actually is very minimal uh compared to what I was used to. Like I had a lot of different machines and stuff. He has actually very simple um machines. Um and for him to be able to output that kind of quality with minimal equipment shows that he just knows he knows how to use his machinery really well, right? Oh yeah. Um, but you know, like there's all like we could probably uh talk an extensive amount about uh abrasive behavior, right? But like when when he's told me about like using a single belt for a type of finish, I started paying more attention to the way the abrasive was acting uh with different types. So my starting uh abrasive is a ceramic uh 50 grit, right? Um, I've actually thought about the fact that sometimes I'm grinding a blade to get rid of those uh 50 grit scratches when what I probably could be doing um is using an 80 grit, and then the difference between 80 and 100 uh 120 grit is not that much of a difference. Um I I I like being able to like hog material off and then uh you know finesse the rest of it. Um, but at 50 is very aggressive. I used to, when I was doing like quarter inch blades, I would use 36 grit, and man, it's like it's chasing an awful lot of very deep scratches. And I I learned uh Tim Robertson told me about um, well, when you have a fresh grit, just uh zip a piece of steel over it to knock all the peaks off of it, and you you're dressing your wheel, uh you're dressing your abrasive to be able to do the grit work that it's impregnated with and not have all those peaks and everything. And I was like, oh, well, that just solved a ton of problems for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:31

Even at even at 2000 grit with the micron belts that I get from uh Phoenix abrasives. Um Jimmy taught me this the last time I was up there. If you if you're doing a handle with your 2000 grit belt, um, before you touch the scale, um dress your uh the belly of your tang with that 2000 grit belt, that fresh one, because it'll knock the highs off of there and it'll be more agreeable for the rest of your handle material. And at 2000 grit, you're only getting one knife out of that belt, but you're not undoing what you just did with your 1200 grit belt because the belt is brand new and it's and it's more aggressive than you want it to be. Um, so yeah, there's something to be said for dressing your belts before you use them. It's not you're not wrecking them, you're not costing it life for no reason, you're evening out all those highs because the abrasive is imperfect. If you put it under a microscope, you can see how irregular it is. Um like sharpening, I sharpen with a clapped out belt. Uh it's it just makes a better edge, in my opinion. There's different belts have different values at different stages in their lives. And once you start learning that, um, you're you have some possibilities and some capabilities that open up for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:41

Yeah. Yeah, I know some makers that will uh they're all their use belts, they'll uh um have them on a pile and then they'll let um new makers or whatever who are not kind of play around with things, uh, you know, uh pill for it. Um but I'll tell you, like most of the belts in my shop are wore out. They're like a like a village bicycle by the time that I get done with them. There's nothing left on them. And it's not because it's not because I uh overuse a belt, it's because I I use it for different purposes and maximize it. So, you know, like I I I use a uh uh a used belt, usually like a used 220, uh to to uh to do the initial um uh sharpening edge on my blades. Right. Um and then and so it'll get sharpened with that. And if I really want like somewhere you know closer to a mirror polish on it, I'll do like a four or six hundred um after the fact. But everything is uh everything is initially ground with a used 220, which you know, arguably probably closer to a 320, almost a 400 with all like most of it, uh the abrasive being used up. But you know, like uh uh aluminum oxide, what you know, two two and a half, three dollars um for a belt.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:54

Um yeah, they're not they're not super expensive.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:56

Yeah, I I get more concerned with uh ceramics uh because you know, uh yeah, eight eight dollar belt or more. Um I'm I'm wanting to get some mileage out of that. Um but most of what I do uh with ceramics is only steel uh removal because um I'm running it at high RPM. So like the thing is like 65 to 80 percent um you know almost max speed on my grinder, and I'm just using it to to stock remove, and then the rest of like the um trizacs and the aluminum oxides and everything like that, like the and the any micron belts that I'm using are all uh for the fine work. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:35

Yeah, the uh so when I use my 36 grit ceramics, uh when they're new, they're pretty much reserved for handle material. And then once they're kind of clapped out and I start getting some resistance and some burning when I'm hogging handle material, then that turns into a steel grinding belt for profiling and that kind of thing, you know, cleaning up uh whatever, cleaning up parts. Um the 120s, the only thing I use them for are my bevels because I will take a clapped out 36 grit and grind my lead ends just to you know break the 45s and get to my edge thickness. Um, and then after that, I go straight to the 120 and I grind my bevels with 120, so I don't have to worry about 60, 80 grit scratches uh at all because they don't exist on the knife. Um, and then I just start you know finishing them up from there. But that's the only one that I really burn through at a higher rate than I would like because they're they are expensive, and depending on the knife I'm gonna write, like the crow, I think I got 10 of those out of a 120 grit belt, and those are small, they're not large knives. Um and so I had to spend you know close to 50 bucks in belts just to do that set of knives, just to just to grind the primary bevels on them, you know. I but like you said, everything else, even though you're burning through um like the 400 grip belts, I think I got four or five knives out of those to a handle before I was ready for the next one, but the three bucks. So it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:06

Yeah. Well, and uh with reservation, uh 36 grip belts for me on ceramic are mostly reserved for um certain types of stock removal, like uh like uh desert ironwood and ring Gidgey. Man, I've tried using a 50 grit belt on them even, and it it uh gums them up so quickly that I I get it down to like five, like uh accounting for the fact that I know there's gonna be some deeper scratches, about five percent. Um I'll get I'll get you know 36 down to about 5% of what my final dimensions are, and then I'll usually go to like an uh 50 or an 80, 120 or whatever. But I'm a little bit more careful about certain things with uh those oily, very uh hard woods. Yeah. Um because I've had the hand sand because I was like, well, I've removed I've if I if I don't remove this individual scratch that seems to be a little bit deeper than every other one by hand, then I'm going to screw the geometry up, right? Of what I'm trying to do with it. And that's where um that's where I've actually started relying a little bit more on files. Um a lot of people are like, well, you know, I'm gonna do everything on the machine and then I'm just gonna go right to hand sanding and do a bunch of repetitive actions with that. And I'm like, nah, dude, there's some areas where like I I will not be able to rely on just hand sanding for five, six, seven hours. I'm going to use a file next, and then I'll be able to remove targeted material, and then I'll go to hand sanding. If I'm really concerned that I did something that I need, like if if when I'm going to files now or I'm doing a bunch of hand sanding, it's because I screwed up in my order of operation or something, and that's that's like the oopsie. And then I'm like, okay, well, this is where you pay, Aaron. Let's just remind you that you you you don't have it all figured out or you forgot a step. Um so it's kind of like a self-solving problem. And then I remember it next time. I'm like, no, dude, I'm not gonna like remember order of operation, remember bell finishes and try to get the machine to do what you want it to.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:10

Yep. Don't don't rely on yourself fixing it on the next step if you can do it easier on this step.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:16

Yeah, absolutely. Um I don't know, dude. There's just um there's a lot to knives, and uh I'm I feel even at the amount of time that I've been in it, uh, that I'm still scratching the surface on the the complexities of it and the nuances of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:34

Oh yeah. Yeah, it's you start feeling good about yourself until you see, you know, one of Steve Johnson's knives laying on a table, or you see a photo of one of Matt Martin's knives, or or whatever, any of that, and you're like, okay, I am not the hot stuff that I thought I was five seconds ago. There's a lot to learn, and you know, there's something to the old the the the adage the you know you should never stop learning. Yeah, you hear that about everything, and everyone's like, oh yeah, obviously you never stop learning. Whatever you're doing, you never stop learning. But it's really, really true. You have to internalize that sentiment, and it has to mean more to you than just something that people say. If you are not improving, you're not troubleshooting, you're not looking for ways to make your method better or steal methods from somebody else, then what's the point?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:21

Yeah, no, I mean, and and I think that that's we we live in a culture where um uh we we must embrace uh industrial espionage. Um because that that is one of the ways that you can beat the learning curve. Like I I don't I don't know about anybody else, but uh spending 30 years um to perfect a craft or whatever, uh to me just seems like not where I want to be. And it's not that I expect instant gratification by any means. I'm willing to put in the work, but there's more of a portion uh that's spent in R D uh now uh that is um that is I I'm I'm looking very intentionally at a micro system inside of knives or whatever to help me get from one point to another. And and that's that's where I think uh looking at uh ways that other people do it really great and asking them uh helps uh lower that learning curve. You know, it used to be uh where they'd say, you know, go to a uh knife maker's shop and uh learn from like do some classes or whatever, because it'll shave five years off your off your learning curve. And that is true. Yeah, that is true. Um there's other ways to hack around it now where you don't have to uh do classes as much, but um even still. Um when you get your uh like how how close are you getting your new shop built out?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:44

Uh I am gonna be if everything goes according to plan. Um I'm gonna be moving into because it's a house and a shop, uh it's a whole thing. I'm gonna be moving in uh the week after Blake Show West and setting up a shop is a first order of business because I, you know, I got I can't have no workshop for an extended period of time. So hopefully end of October, I'll be up and running and and rocking and rolling full speed.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:09

Yeah, that's good. I actually was up uh um close to your neck of the wood. I was up in uh Wichita picking up an Android. Wow. Yeah. And moving all the way out there from that. Yeah, it was uh well, it was still four at what four almost four and a half hours from where you're at. So um Kansas City's a little a little bit further away than I wanted to drive. I would have hit you up, but then I was like, of course he's gonna like say, let's go ahead and uh meet up, and then I had to be out another eight hours of drive time.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:37

Yeah, that would have been a that would have been a big ask. I I get that. And there's a lot of Kansas between here and there.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:42

Oh yeah. Um I so we I I went up, I found this hay button. Um that was like a hundred, it was they said it was a hundred and fifty pounder, but it's a hundred and forty, hundred and forty eight, something like that, one hundred and forty eight, hundred and forty nine. So very close. Um but It looked in really great condition. It's exactly what I need to be able to start uh, you know, putzing around with uh forging again to get into the journeyman smith with the ABS, um, which you know I'll have to I'll have to wait on for uh another two out uh two and three quarter years, um, unless I do the uh intro to to bladesmithing course. But um I we looked at it and it one of the things that was good about it was that the it uh they had it was sitting in a shop for uh quite a while and and they were a fabrication shop and they made this custom welded stand. And I was like, dude, just the stand alone is probably about a $450 stand. I mean, it was real nice, custom to that anvil, right? Right. And and so we I made we made the drive, but uh um from where we're at, it's a well with stops, it was a six-hour one-way. Um so we went up and did a snatch and grab and then drove back. And so we were on the road for like 12 hours, and that's a lot to take the wife and uh and little kiddo. Like uh uh Evelyn did not understand how boring uh certain parts of Oklahoma and Kansas can be. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:07

Yeah, it's not unlike the drive from here out to Denver. It's it's a quick drive, but man, you gotta have something to do or like a good road trip partner or something, because it's it's there's nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:19

Yeah. What's funny is like my entire family. Um I I I I'm sure that they would say, like, I'm the heckler. Um, but like Evelyn started heckling me. She's like, why she started getting bored, and she's like, Why do you even need this anvil anyhow? Like, you just had to have it, didn't you? And I was like, dude, you need you're just an observer in this. You need to be quiet.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:40

You're like five years old. You just sit there and do your thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

Yeah. Eight, but who's counting?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:45

Yeah, same thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:46

Yeah. No, she was like definitely not happy about driving. But my wife and I love road trips as long as we can uh make it work and there's not just like a deep necessity to be, you know, from place to place too quickly. I would have stayed the night if it wasn't for the fact that we didn't bring all the stuff for the kiddo to have.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:03

I'm anxious to see how that works out for you, especially coming with from such a strong stock removal background. Like as you dive into forging, um, whether it's you're just making billets for yourself or whether you're forging out you know, knives and really dumping yourself into that school of craftsmanship, I'm really interested to see how that plays out um with your skill set, what things are easier, what things are more challenging.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:29

Yeah. Well, uh something to understand about my background in knives is uh, you know, obviously I always knew that stock removal was like like every road leads to stock removal, right? Um, but um what I started forging um forging blades pretty early on um and and doing forge work, but then I got a frozen shoulder. Like it kind of been like uh bugging me for several years before I started making knives. Uh, but then it got too much when I was I started to do forging and everything and blacksmithing, and uh I was like, I I'm just going to uh hang that portion of what I was focusing on up. Um but you know, in the in the ABS uh focus, uh, you know, obviously they have to be forged knives, but um what I'm most interested in, like uh with the JS, um everybody that I've talked to so far um indicate that there's a large portion of the JS that is bench time. So yes, you have your your forged knife that you do, um, but uh a larger portion of the time to get the fit and finish and everything like that that it needs to be, and you know, all the aesthetic um components checked off is you know, you know, bench time, right? Which I'm already used to.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:51

Um where where I'm really interested in um in the ABS and kind of where that journey takes me is in understanding some of the caveats of of forging. Um I want to do some integral bolster knives and things like that. Um and and I also am like very interested in this humongous um quagmire or enigma, whichever way you look at it, of Mosaic Damascus.

unknown 1:32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:19

Um, because you know, what I've what I've learned so far is that the time and energy that it takes to do Mosaic Damascus, uh, you should be honored to have somebody who makes it where you can buy it. Right. Oh, absolutely. You know, like like uh any of the like the Bill Poor's or the or the the Burks or any anyone like that, uh, you know, Nichols, whatever, whatever Damascus flavor uh it is, just Damascus, not even considering the mosaics, if they're selling it to you, they're crazy because the amount of time in it, I don't know that there really is a profit margin to be had over the those Damascus prices.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:59

No, they're doing it because they can, not because it's uh you know the lucrative move, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:04

Yeah. Well, and and for me, like uh, you know, the the journey to Mastersmith um is more mostly a focus on learning some of the um intricacies of it and learning mosaic damascus and everything, uh, in order to be able to um have command over that kind of material choice for things that I'm going to do um in the future with like I'm not gonna say art knife, um I mean I I guess I can't. Like I'm my my focus isn't just like like sticking art knives or anything like that, but there are things that I want to do, like series of knives and whatnot, that I need to get to a place where I can I can conceptualize things and know how to apply it and I can make my own mosaic, Damascus, and other things and be able to combine that in a way that you know I I just couldn't you can I can't hire in for that. I there's no way that I can uh I can outsource that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:59

And so yeah, so like apart most of the journey is so that way I can have a deeper artistic expression um and make what I want to make. And I need to be able to learn how to do that. Maybe I could have just taken a you know Mosaic Damascus course, but this is also a uh uh an accolade or a a um uh validation that I can have that I can also work inside of the uh um the Smith medium and um you know achieve that too. Much like the guild is for you know general purposes. I think this is more of a you know niche to forging, and I kind of want to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:34

Yeah, I've never known you to take any half measures with anything, so I'm not surprised that's the route that you're going.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:39

Well, I mean, I just have to make my life difficult.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:42

Yeah, no, you're uh you're you are the uh I think Sisyphus, and I picture you in my circle of friends. That's that's you, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:53

Well, um I'm sure widened down uh the show and everything like that, uh you have a lot of uh sleep that you probably will never catch up on. But um I'm interested to know, like what what is in like other than the shop and doing shows and things like that, like what is what what's kind of like the next thing that you want to do? Um since since we've talked, it's been you know since the beginning of this year and everything. Like what's what's next for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:17

I'm just excited to uh I I have hit that sweet spot with my production methods, I think, or I'm getting really close to it. Um every run of knives that I do as a batch gets cleaner. Um I'm excited to do more of that. It's been over a year since the last time I've sent knives to a dealer in any quantity. Um, and I want to get into a regular, like, you know, and Jake's and I talk about this every month or every other month, sending um a a batch out to a dealer instead of instead of waiting 18 months and then sending him 85 knives. I want to send him 20 pieces in January, 20 pieces in February, 20 pieces in in March, you know, uh, and get that kind of coinciding with my custom work so that I can kind of build those two separate tiers. You know, if you want you want a crow, you can get a base model crow from DLT for, you know, what at 350. If you want a crow built your way, I can do that for you, and we'll spec it out exactly how you want. And then it's it's almost like I wouldn't call it this, I don't want that much of a separation, but then it's almost like a Nightwatch knife versus an Alex Harrison custom. You know what I mean? Uh so as I kind of explore that and build those two things out, I those two different like tiers. Um I'm interested to see what the nuances of making that work are gonna be like. And I think having the new shop set up the way I am envisioning it is gonna go a long way towards making that a reality. I'm really excited about it. I go to sleep thinking about it, I wake up thinking about it. I'm impatient. I'm ready to get in there and get started.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:03

Yeah, well, I mean, knives are kind of like uh they they reinvigorate the but the like the imagination that you have when you're a kid. Um I I feel that way all the time. Like I'm my wife is like always telling me I'm uh talk talk about knives all the time. Because I guess what one thing or another. And the podcast just kind of expands on that because I'm not only talking about my own knives with my business uh or glorified hobby, but uh, but I'm talking about everybody else's knives too.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:29

Um yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:31

And um, well, I I think um I I have I have a you know a business entity that is LeVere and Sun Knife Co. Right, yeah. But I've always made um Air and LeVere knives. And and one thing that I don't think that I've ever done particularly well is or maybe it was never my my intention necessarily, uh, but it's to have um knives that are um popularized by my brand, uh, not me personally, but by you know, because you talk about the difference between Nightwatch versus Alex Harrison, right? And and I I don't know that like I've I'm on the opposite side of it. Like I I every knife is an Aaron LeVere knife, and Levere and Son Knife Co is like the the story about how I got into knives and you know my stepson and everything. But um I I also don't think that um any one model of my knife, uh my knives or whatever has been so popular that I've been like, okay, well, I can I can make 50 of those and send them off to somebody and they're all gonna sell. And so I get maybe that's a little bit different. Like I like you you are definitely uh the type of maker that uh spends a lot of time in this design process and ideating on things, right? And you know, figuring out what that aesthetic is. And that was kind of like the the the lead in to kind of like the last component of this is to talk about design, uh, because I you you're a prolific designer in in my eyes. Like you're always thinking about different things that you can hack, um, different things that you can steal from me and make better. Thanks. Well, I mean, how often do we have conversations? You're like, oh man, I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that. I'm like, dude, go for it. Like, I I want to see what what Alex does with this concept because I know that whatever it is that you're gonna do is not gonna be anything close to like what I do. It's gonna be your spin on it. It's gonna take a design element that you like, a constraint that you put on your designs that's an element of something you see somewhere else. And I it's cool for me to like be able to think about stuff that I make and give you an idea for something that you can do that um that you're taking in a completely different direction. Like I don't like I don't like people just biting off of me. Um, but I love the process where we work off of each other and inspire each other to do something uh different and uh and our own things. And that's something that I've always really appreciated about your design style and what you come up with. Anytime I've seen sketches, I'm like, man, you got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:11

Well, it just I and I don't it's hard to quantify how that happens. I mean, like when you made that that beautiful, beautiful Zulu trapper with the jigbone, uh the fixed blade Zulu, um, I that thing lived rent-free in my head. And I was like, I I need to make one of those. I'm not kidding when I told you I pulled that photo up on my phone, laid it next to my sketchbook, and drew it. And when I was done with it and happy with it, the knife on that sketch was so unrecognizably not anything approaching a Zulu uh uh fixed blade. You no one ever would have known that that's what I was was angling at. But I just I I drew it and I got 95% of the way there, and then I started moving lines around and changing would have had this. So, you know, well, this is kind of my design cue. I do this a lot, maybe I should change this. And by the time I was done, it was something completely different. I I made one of them, I gave it to uh uh uh Tara at DLT. Um, we reached an arrangement for something else, but uh I I still have a pattern, I'll make another one eventually. But it at this point, it's hard for me not to do something with my design cues, and and a big part of it is less about you know, purely from a designing angle and more like I know how my tools behave and I know what I can and can't accomplish. Um, I've kind of changed the ways that I do uh sharpening choil lately because I've got access to a quarter inch wheel now, um and it still depends on the knife, but uh you can't you can't design a knife and then build it if your methods, your tools don't have a way to make that physically happen. Um and it's it's the age old, you know, that is the the attention between um you know engineers and machinists. They they run into that problem a lot in in every aspect, you know, industry across the world. Um so that's one of the first things that I dig into is what can I what can I accomplish? You know, that the two-finger choil that I put on a lot of handles, um, I know that I either need to be able to get a two-inch belt in there, or I'm gonna have to cut a belt in half to to profile the inside of that handle. Um stuff like that. I know that if I'm using a 18-inch stock and I'm using a six-inch grinding wheel, I'm only gonna be able to make that bevel so high. So it can't be a really tall knife. Um there are there are limitations that I I have to keep in mind and design my way around. And then inside that context, there are certain cues that I just like. Most of the knives I design have a drop point. Most of the knives that I design are small because I am short and I have small hands and I like small knives. Um I design if I design something with a guard, I design it around the idea that the guard is going to be quarter-inch stock because that's the brass that I buy. Um it's stuff like that. You know, I make sure that the pattern fits into uh inch and a half wide uh barstock because that's what I buy. Um so you do have you have to approach it practically as well as aesthetically and think about what you know what am I capable of? What are what are the limitations of my material? What are the limitations of my tools? What are the limitations of my skills? I can draw a kick-ass dagger. I don't know how to grind a dagger. I'm not very good at daggers. So I'm careful about that kind of thing because I know I have to take my skill set into account. Um, and the rest is just incidental. I mean, I'll pick up a sketch and look at it down the spine like it's an actual knife, and I'm looking at a 2D because I want to make sure there's not a dip somewhere. Um, it if it takes me less than an hour to sketch a knife from start to finish, it's not gonna be good. I it it takes me a long time, and I usually have to come back the next day and look at it and find something that I couldn't see before because I've been staring at it for too long. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:10

Yeah, well, and that's that's something that I've uh I really admire about Grace Horn. Um is like the the the sketchbooks that she does um is like a har like is uh a herald to an earlier time where she uh she also is impressed by uh the early Sheffield cutler uh cutlers and whatnot doing uh sketches and and things. And the way that she plans out everything and writes a storybook uh for each one of the the things that she makes, uh to me is it's part of the creative process for her. And um I'm gonna tell you, like, if I spend an hour and a half drawing something, it's gonna be horrible because I suck at drawing. Um I I I've never really been able to get past the um the design phase. Like mo like what you see that I create is me saying, okay, well, I I I have I I have limitations in my mind, right? Uh like or constraints uh about how I want to do things. And I like sketching it would be one thing, but I really just have to go and make that thing and then screw up a bunch of stuff and I make it through osmosis. And yeah, I I wish, I wish honestly, dude, uh that I had the talent to sketch things out and to be able to evaluate things um before I I actually have to grind them and spend all that time. Because for me, there's a portion that I just don't want to make like design new stuff because grinding stuff out and doing all that takes a lot of time. Uh and it's also more costly than paper. Um, but it's a limitation that I have where I just I'm not good at drafting, I'm not good at like even like dude. I have so many like like those French curves and different things like that sitting around. And I I get started on this kind of like idea uh or whatever, and then I just screw everything up. You know, it is a line's not right or whatever. And so I may maybe it's just like I can't get it uh out of my own head about it. But um I it'd be interesting if you ever decided to do like a a class or whatever on knife design uh to proliferate that because I I think about uh from from your earlier knives to where you're at now, I I see themes, right? And I was uh I was talking with uh uh Brian from Keynes and Knives about about that. Uh he so he was uh in uh in industrial design and then uh wanted to uh get into making knives because of the cost of having knives that he wanted to. Yeah. And and then that kind of snowballs into being like a you know, uh having a full-time knife business and having a you know partner and that them doing all this uh stuff together. Uh but there's elements to his design aesthetic that that crop up, even though he's doing something completely different design-wise on certain things, you can always see what he's doing and what and and the the artifacts of his creativity uh throughout that. And I I see that same consistency of of of your creative spirit in in everything that you do. It's just it's it's fascinated me uh to think about like design and knife design and everything, but also with the admiration because I just uh I don't I don't feel I intrinsically possess those skills.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:39

It's just fine-tuning, man, and it's it's learning the things that you like. I mean, you hear B.B. King play one note and you know who exactly who it is. Um you look at a Bark River design and every like the belly on every drop point that they do, not the not the top, but the belly. Um, Mike draws them all the same way. You know a Mike Stewart blade profile when you see it. Um same with with Bob's knives or with um like Skelton. Skelton doesn't put a maker's mark on his knives because he doesn't have to. You look at one of his and you immediately know who made that thing. That's really cool. Um and it's just I think I don't know that there's a way to do that other than honestly, and I think you're informed by the things that you like, the things that you collect, and the knives that live like rent-free in your head. You know, we've all got patterns that are out there that like just we they blew us away from minute one and we they're just there now. Um, and I think that the more exposure you have to other stuff and and uh the more time you spend messing with different designs, the more you develop that sense of, you know, this is the truest picture of Alex's design cues. This is this is how Aaron makes a knife, you know. It it's just it's just continuing to develop that. And I would tell you, keep teaching yourself how to draw, man, because I don't I have no talent as a visual artist. I can draw nothing, I can paint nothing. It's it's only sketching knives, and I'm only good at that because I know how to make them, I know what the lines are supposed to look like. Uh and I get frustrated too. I I you know I can see it in my head, I can't get it on a paper. That is absolutely a thing. But the fact that you know how they're constructed and know what they're supposed to look like goes a long way towards being able to put them on paper.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:29

Yeah, and that makes sense. Um, well, like uh talking about that Zulu spear, um I um I that thing kind of fought me um in the sense that uh what there's a there's a a subset of like slip joint makers, especially that go for like uh the historical um um representation of knives like that that uh yeah uh design provenance, as it were. So if if you have a Tony. Bose uh style Zulu spear in a slip joint or fixed blade, then it it makes the most sense that uh from a design perspective, an execution perspective, you make it like Tony did. Yeah. And and and there are people that get away from that, but I I tried to constrain myself to make a knife uh that was like Tony did. You know, this the the draw swedge was in the uh the the right spot, the uh handle material looked the right way, and so on and so forth. And um the the reality is is what I I realized afterwards is that I can't remove myself from the knives that I'm making because I saw I saw that in some ways, I got a photographed that looked good and everything like that, sure. Right. But I I saw it as a fit a failure uh in my constraints because it didn't look like one that Tony makes, right? Okay, sure. And so so so my ability, my ability to execute to a uh a historic um um like a provenance or design uh perspective, I I don't really know if I'm capable of that. And you know, it's a it's a good thing in a lot of ways because I just make I just make what I make, right? Yeah and everything, but it was also a learning uh experience for me in saying that um maybe my focus shouldn't be in reproducing um uh other like historical or pro like design provenance type of work, but then really focusing on like these aesthetic choices that I make and what really drives that. And that's kind of like the introspection is um don't focus so much on um on other people's lanes, focus more on your own and what you're really good at. And um, you know, it's it's I wouldn't say like it didn't keep me up at night or anything or anything, but the fact that you look at it uh as a uh a means of inspiration for your own design and whatnot um is interesting to me because I wouldn't have based on my experience with that knife, I wouldn't have thought that anybody cared about it but me.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:13

Well, and it's because uh of a difference in philosophy there. I mean, and I don't mean this to sound callous. It's not that I know that's Tony Bowes pattern. I don't care about the fine points of how he did it. I I like the lines on it, and I like what it evokes, how it moves. That's what I am shooting for. The same with Bob's knives. You've seen a million drop point hunters, right? Uh I've seen one of Bob's, I've seen one of Matt's, which he's gonna hate me for saying this, but I think Matt makes a better Loveless drop point hunter than Bob ever did. Um, and all these other makers that have done them. I'm not making anyone's Bob Loveless drop point hunter. I'm not making Bob Loveless's drop point hunter. I'm making Alex's drop point hunter. It's a marriage of all those different design cues that have come from these different guys, and I I want it to fit my hand the way I shape it. I want it to have my curves that I put on a blade. I want it to have my grinds, right? Um so I I'm I'm borrowing the the shape. I'm borrowing the essence of that knife, but I'm not trying to make a one-for-one copy of the exact thing that Bob did. I'm not trying to be true to that. I'm trying to make Alex's drop point hunter.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:34

Yeah. And I think um as I as I think about that and as I've pondered over the years, um knives and what we do with our life energy um is is evocative, right? You look at something that we do, and there's there's something that it evokes. Um, sometimes if you're making like a shank or a knife-shaped object, it's like uh, well, I mean, yeah, somebody has a journey that they're just starting. Uh others, you know, you're picking up uh, you know, cues of design or whatever. I don't know that in in some ways I've been intentional in the build um and things that I in my mind's eye look right, but there's not been like a deep seated uh this is what I'm going for in uh a granular way. And I've I've I've thought a lot more about that. Like, I mean, what what if what if I do tie a hand uh behind my back and say that I need to do something a very specific way? Like, can I accomplish that? Can I can I uh bubble up creativity and evoke uh uh a an emotion or a a reaction to something um because I've focused on this one thing. I I I'm I'm um if anybody's listening, I've been kind of intentional in doing that with a podcast. Like what I'm trying to do a very specific type of thing with the podcast, and I didn't I didn't know about what I was doing when I first started. I thought podcasts, cool, knife makers cool. I'm already doing all this stuff and talking to people, and I like these conversations. But as things have grown, I get a little bit more specific about well, I understand why I started doing it, but what's going to keep me doing it? Right. And and that's kind of the same journey that I'm taking through knives, is like, what is going to keep me interested in it? And and I'm I'm sussing out those things uh for myself. And I I want people to like look at uh my work and for it to, you know, just have something that ticks boxes, you know, and maybe they don't even know what those things are, but they're just like, man, that like that hits. It's the same way. Like you're talking about B.B. King. Like the reason why his his uh his uh playing and everything is so what it is, is because it is evocative. Like you're like, man, I don't know what this thing is, like this chord structure or the way he makes a uh Lucille Seg or whatever, but it's like that that is just him, and you can't get it any other way. And it just it makes you it makes you like like fist pump and cry at the same time. And those I think are things that I I think about um like what what if you can you can get so specific with your craft that when people look at it, they're just like man, this is this is where it's at. You've done everything that I think you can do in this medium.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:28

You're right. And and I think the what's so cool about artists like that, whether you're talking about B.B. King or whether you're talking about Jim Skelton, is how true they are to their own stuff, their own sound, their own design cubes, you know. Um, and it's not like you and I have this this like squirrel syndrome. We're like, oh, I want to make a really good levels pattern. I I I also want to like dive into some Randall knives and build some really cool Randalls, and I want to be the go-to for super tiny EDCs. Um, and that's that's fine. There's nothing wrong with broadening your skill set. You should do those things, but that should be in an effort to zero in what's the truest version of your thing. Um, I mean, Chick-fil-A makes one thing, and people line up around the block for it every day because they're good at it, and that is what they do. It's it is not shortchanging yourself to dig into your niche once you find it. The trick is is just finding it.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:29

Yeah, and that's I I think um I my advice to like new makers and whatnot is to was what like a while ago was to say, meh, you know, like find that thing sooner than later, because you spend all this time like uh squirreling it, as it were, and and you can very easily lose yourself in what everybody else is doing and what the industry is demanding and everything like that. And um, if if you're treating it as a business, uh then do what consumers want. If you're doing it as a personal mode of expression, you can't do that by doing what everybody else wants. Um, you know, there's you and and you have to as a maker uh decide on what what that that path looks like for you. And then to be able to like kind of fill in, like it's not dot to dot necessarily. You're building the dots to make the whatever it is at the end that you're trying to uh convey. And the earlier that you can kind of figure out what your general direction is, the more you can kind of build out that uh vision map, as it were, on how to take the next logical step to get to where you want to be. Um so I mean, if that's if that's a production knife maker and having a big company and stuff like that, man, there are definitely some steps that you have to take in order to be able to do that and to sacrifice some of the um the absolute creative mechanisms that you have for it. Cause you know, it's it's there's not there's not there's not always business like production business in in creating every little idea that you uh thought was interesting. You gotta go with what works and then you know, you know, maybe have some artistic expression on the side. Um, some might people might argue uh that they they do production and are completely artistic, but I think that um you know, if it's a business, then you you really kind of are uh constraining yourself a little bit that way. But I don't know, man. It's a lot to think about all the time. Every single episode I do, every waking hour, every uh dream that I have about knives, I uh I I wonder. And I'm constantly thinking about it. And I think that's probably the reason why I've stuck with knives as long as I have, is because um it's a constant journey and thought. And I like the fact that we all share that in in one way or another. Like I like the people that think deeply about this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:57

I I agree. I think it speaks to a um I mean present company excluded, because you and I are not this, but I think it speaks to a certain uh creative, at least if not, you know, general maturity. Uh ask asking yourself. Maybe not why you're doing what you're doing, but what you're really doing, what you're trying to accomplish. Um I'd make knife, comma one. That's not a good enough reason to get up and do it every day because none of this stuff is easy, you know what I mean? But if you dig in and get a little a little introspective about it and try to figure out what you're really trying to accomplish, what you do and what you don't want to do, and why what it means to you, why you're doing it, uh ultimately I think it makes you a better grassman, at least to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:39

Yeah. Um, yeah, I have a um a lot of like my uh like my life views are based on childhood traumas and stuff. And I like my dad's uh midlife crisis was pretty um interesting to me. And I was I was always like, uh man, like I whenever I get to my midlife crisis or whatever, I wonder how I'll handle it. And and I realized like I'm I'm actually like midlife, you know, like I'm I'm like I know that they say 40 years is midlife, but most people like the average lifespan's not 80 years, you know. It's it's like I'm I'm I'm going through my midlife crisis uh uh of sorts, right? And I think I think I think that that that the midlife evaluation for me, it's not a crisis because I'm actually owning it, is is really it is what am I doing? Like if I if I I'm at a point where it's like I have like one life to live, I get very I get a few opportunities to screw up from here on out and still be able to kind of like re readjust what is it that I want the next you know 15, 20, 30 years to look like for me, and what kind of uh uh what kind of um freedom do I want to have? And I evaluate that in my personal life, I evaluate in my relationships with other people, and I I will uh I evaluate that in what I'm doing inside of this craft that I've chosen. And you know, a few years ago, it was like, dude, I don't if I if I can't sell knives at shows and do this and that, I don't know if I should even continue knives. It's just an expensive hobby. And then I had to say, you know, maybe it is an expensive hobby, but if that's if that's it, if it is just an expensive hobby, what's next? Right. Um, am I okay embracing that? Um, you know, what am I gonna do? And so, you know, I I think that there's a lot of people that I um talk with. I mean, you you and I, uh, we talked a lot about that stuff, Matt, and I talked a lot about that stuff. Uh, I think that we all collectively have these conversations about um what is it as we age and as we um mature in diff in all these different ways in life. Um, what what purpose are we applying and what energy are we putting forth towards it? And it just so happens that knives is uh very philosophical. So I take things that I'd learn in knives and I apply them to real life. Because uh this is like yeah, wherever I can I mean it's it's also there's things that I do in knives where I think like, hmm, like maybe next time I'll argue this way with my wife and see how that goes.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:15

Yeah, it doesn't work though, does it?

SPEAKER_00 2:03:17

Nope. Not at all. It is a zero-sum game. Outstanding. Yeah. All right, but well, you know, it's been a pleasure to have you on the uh on the show and everything. I appreciate you spending your time with me, especially considering it's precious and uh you got a lot of other things on your plate. But um, I am really interested to see all these pictures and everything like that um once you get your shop built out. And we do need to make a date uh where we can uh go and hang out and build stuff and play around with things, see what the uh diminishing return is on tape or tanks and do some like uh you know uh scientific studies on things. Maybe we can publish a paper like Laren does.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:59

Yeah, I I agree. I think first of all, I appreciate the callback. I had a blast uh coming coming back, had a blast last time.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:06

Um and I think I think there's there's some fun to be had there. I mean, you if you and I are gonna get together and make some dust in a workshop, then we gotta have some stupid ulterior motive, some thing that only we care about, and I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head. So uh give me give me a month or two and uh we'll we'll get something set up. I'll have you out here, and I've got you know, I'll have the space to host you, which will be cool, and uh we'll have a good time.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:32

Yeah, we'll uh do a steel jam session. Yes, we will. All right, buddy. Well, you have a good night, and uh again, it's been a pleasure, man. Absolutely. Thanks, man. Thanks. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you were loved, and God bless.