SPEAKER_02 0:11

Enjoy me as we talk to other things. Frank Lloyd Wright said, art is a discovery and development of elementary principles of nature into beautiful forms suitable for human use. For Brian Montalvo at Keenan Knives, melding materials together to make functional art is like seeing a master blend together paint at their easel. With each handmade knife, Brian and his partner in knives will spend considerable time evaluating materials and their aesthetic to produce some of the most eye-catching and superbly operating knives on their limited runs of custom folders. With a background in industrial design, Brian obsesses over the form and function of knife design and the combination of materials used so that even in seeming chaos, each component looks like it was always supposed to exist that way. From tip to tail, a Keenan Knife screams their design. And the tendrils of Brian's R aesthetic are present in every element that Akenis and Knives made. Brian, it's a pleasure to have you on the Good Old Blades podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, thank you for having me, Aaron.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Um, so I've I've I've known about your work for a long time. Um I followed you on social media as long as that's uh uh been a thing, and uh I'm I'm interested to know a little bit more about you personally, and then we'll get into Keenness and Knives and and the group that you know comprises that and kind of what you do. Um but uh could you uh you know introduce yourself in a way that you know my audience who probably um might not dig as deep into the backstory of how you guys got started would uh be able to know it's like kind of surface level and then we'll get deeper from there.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Sure. Uh I guess you know, start intro. My name's Brian. Uh I'm originally from California, live in Austin, Texas, and uh we make knives out here. I got into knives as a kid. You know, my dad, like like most of us, my my dad got me into knives uh when I was young. I carried a pocket knife most of my life. Um nothing fancy. I had some Gerbers back in the day, and uh nothing like any spider codes or anything. But my dad got me into the love of knives. Uh I always had one on me growing up. I mean I I remember taking them to school and not being a big deal, right? Like we just had pocket knives. But uh I've always enjoyed knives. It's it's kind of something I've always dabbled in. I I didn't know what a nice knife was until my wife got me on Instagram years ago. Uh I'm not really a big social media guy, I don't really like Facebook, but uh I got into all the you know Gucci Glocks and all the guns and stuff, and she was showing me guns on Instagram and so I started cruising through that and uh I found a rad cleaver. Um uh I you know I had no idea who rad knives was. I did a little research and ended up reaching out to him on Instagram and saying, hey, how do I get one of these? And uh he said, Yeah, it'll be 2500 bucks, which was early. I mean that was years ago, right? You can't get a rad cleaver for 2500 bucks to save your life back then. Anyway, uh he said 2500 bucks in six months. I said, Okay. And he said, uh, and I need the money up front. And I was like, oh, okay. I I see what we're doing here. Um so you know, I did a little bit more research and got into the community a little bit and started messaging people and uh figuring out what it was all about. You know, I saw that found the conning Arias. That was one of my favorite first designs that I ever saw. Uh it was Gen 1 too. It was uh the first first time that they were spinning it up. It uh I still have mine. It's Ceracoded Gray and Seracoded Black Blade and one of those that will never leave my collection. But yeah, found the Arias and then uh DSK knives um and started collecting a little bit. And you know, I I I I went to a buddy and I said, you know, I these knives are awesome. Uh my background's in industrial design. I was an industrial designer previously. And uh and I said, I think I can design one of these if if you can help me machine it. And uh so we we kind of jumped down that path and uh see what we could do with with folding knives. It was super frustrating. Um ever tried to make a folding knife, you know. We went right to folding knives, we didn't even do uh fixed blades, so it's it's a love of it's a it's a work of uh love, you know. It's not easy and it's it's frustrating, and so yeah, that sparked my interest. And here we are, I think six, six, seven years later, maybe eight now in COVID years. I don't I don't know. Uh but uh years later, it's still doing it and loving it, and it's still challenging and one of those things that either either helps me sleep at night because I did it right or it keeps me up at night because I did it wrong. But uh I think that's one of the things I love most about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Yeah, I'd say knives are some of the the the most euphoric and the most uh depress uh depressed depression-inducing uh experiences I've had. Um have you always been in the vein of um folders and I I don't know, you wouldn't call that mid-tech, right? I mean what what is like the the the focus of of knives that you're in as a collector and and developing them?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah, I struggle with that mid-tech term. I don't I don't really uh I guess that's kind of what the terms escape me. Uh you know, we started as a handmade custom knife company. We we primarily only did you know no CNC in here. We do use manual mills and uh manual lathes to turn everything down. Uh and we still do that. Uh we just got into the the Mac, right? They call it machine assisted custom knife. Um the Mac category, which I guess has taken over like mid-tech. I I don't know. I that's a loose term for me. Um but uh yeah, so so we primarily are handmade, and then we work with uh HMC knives, Jim Vandevelt in Pennsylvania. He does kind of a mid-tech for us. I guess that would be. It's uh you know, it's still a handmade for all intents and purposes. It's a Mac knife, machine assisted. Um he does all the machining, we do the grinds, we do all the finish work. Um kind of a nice collaboration, but yeah, I I don't know about the mid-tech thing, but we're we're just you know, we try to make cool custom folders, everything I guess everything one-off, so to speak. I mean, it's the same model with different materials, different, you know, everything's done by hand, so no two are the same. So it's uh I don't know where you where you put that. It's it's a loose category.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Yeah, well, in in web design and in in like productizations type of stuff, we call that bespoke, right? There you go. And you know, it's it's interesting to me uh in some ways that like it doesn't matter what area of the knife industry you're in, there's always somebody trying to categorize or like make things kitschy, right?

unknown 7:17

Don't put me in a box.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, don't put me in a box. You know, and I mean that's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

You know, I was talking to uh to Grace Horn. Uh it was, you know, everybody's journey is different, and you work hard at this thing, and what it is that you create is really like specific to you. So um, you know, whether you say like mid tech or high tech or or Mac or whatever, um I you know the the it interests me in the nomenclature mostly just to be able to navigate through like the the research and finding different things, but it really has very little impact to me on what that creative process is, right? Um but yeah, man, there's a there are some knives uh that I've seen you post on social that just like pop in every single way except the one where my wallet can afford it. Um and and you know that's I think that's probably um one of the most interesting paradigms that I have in in knife making and knife collecting is that if I could take all of the money that I have, not just what I make on knives, and turn that into supporting other makers and collecting their work and whatnot, I probably would. Um but you know, I there's I don't know that I really care about the kids having a college fund or anything, but I would like to not be so far in debt that if like something happens to me, we gotta sell everything off and then they get nothing.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

So well, and and that's I mean it's a very valid point, and and especially these days, saving that money. I I you know, we do this year we'll we'll have done five knife shows this year, we did six last year. Um, and people always ask me if I shop, you know, I I'm a knife fan too, so do what do I buy at the shows? And honestly, these days I try not to buy things at shows because you know, if I bought a knife at every knife show I went to, I'd I'd walk back, I'd come back broke. It's just there's so much cool stuff. But at the same token, there's always something that you know you see repeatedly, and it's like, oh, I really do want that. So, you know, I buy things here and there uh and I still collect yeah, you want to support your buddies and and uh you know support the industry and all that stuff, but yeah, I hear you. I I I I consciously try not to purchase at shows these days, just for that that exact purpose. And it goes back to my original story. You know, the reason that I started making knives was because that $2,500 rad, which I should have bought because I could have made money on back in the day, but uh but uh I could I couldn't afford I couldn't even imagine spending $2,500 on a knife back then. It was just you know so foreign to me. I had sixty dollar, eighty dollar, you know, if I was gonna spend three hundred and fifty dollars on a knife it better be really good. So um yeah, it's uh it's a little bit jaded these days with with the way things work around here, but um it's a lot of time, you know. It's I I I understand where the money comes these days, I mean obviously, and and you don't see a lot of the fails. You know, you don't it's uh I love that thing, you know, uh Picasso saying I'm gonna mess it up, but you know, he sketches something on a napkin and he charges the woman for it. She says, What why so much? And it's like, well, you know, you think it only took me 15 seconds, but it took me a lifetime to learn how to do that, right? Um it's that's kind of what you're paying for, is the the people that have spent the time to figure out how to get it done and and hopefully efficiently, because that's the only way you can really make any money doing it, is you know, keeping processes efficient and spending the time. But still, you know, we work with so many materials that sometimes you don't predict how it's gonna react in this certain s circumstance when you use it as a bolster rather than using it as a scale. It's just it's uh it's a gamble here and there, but that's what keeps it fun. You know, I I enjoy coming into work every day and trying something new. I I get as excited as everybody else to see what you know when we sand into that four diet, what does that final layer look like? I say that because I'm working on a four-dite night knife today, but uh I'm as excited as everybody else's to see what what it looks like after I sand it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Well yeah, and I mean you're not exactly working with cheap materials in any way, shape, or form. Uh that's part of uh I'm interested to know what what got you into the vein of using um you know the the titaniums and tie mascuses and things like that. Was there a conscious decision based on your uh like your your inner eye to follow that vein, or is it something that naturally progressed, or kind of what made you do that?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So being being a fan of products and product design and things like that, I I love materials. Uh and that's you know, my my buddy Matt uh Hawk's nest and I uh customs out here, he's a big material guy. We get along really well because I I love I love that aspect of this industry, and I think a lot of people do, you know. I think that's why the worry coins and the or the worry stones and things like that catch on is you really just want a little bit of that material, whether it be Westinghouse or Damascus or whatever it is. Um so you know, in the same thing, I I saw these knives out of black Damascus and White Damascus and Zercatai and all that, and I I wanted one and I wanted to play with it. Uh one of my first customs was a uh a Scorpion 6. Um I forget the model off the top of my head. I still have it, but I bought it. It's an awesome knife. He did this cool polish job on it, but it had a Damascus clip, and that was the first Damascus I ever owned, and I was so excited about it. And uh so that was also one of the things that motivated me to make knives was I want, you know, if I was gonna pay $500 for the sheet of Tomascus, I need to make something cool out of it and polish it and heat it and be able to play with it. Um and so it really started with wanting to play with Zerk and Damascus and all that stuff. And then as I got more exposed to all the other materials, then again, you know, it's like, ooh, Fordite. I had heard about Fordite before it became popular in knives uh years ago, and I I was what you know, Fordite jewelry and things like that, I wanted to play with it, so when it popped into our you know, into the industry, I said, Well, yeah, I want to play with that, right? And it just snowballed from there, you know. It's it it and and then what I learned was some of the older material, I mean, all of the older uh micartas, like the Westinghouse and the you know, Allied paper and all the older stuff, they're just they're a lot easier to work than some of the newer stuff, right? Whatever they used in it for maldehyde and things that we should not be breathing, I'm I'm sure, you know, that's why we are wearing mask. But um all those old micartas are so much fun to work. They're so stable and so easy to sand and so easy to finish. Uh, it's just such a joy to play with that stuff. So then I got, again, more and more down the rabbit hole, and you kind of, you know, I got now. I'm a material hoarder. I just pull them out of the drawer and we kind of what do I have over here? I got a you know, a really nice piece of lined uh nobody can see this on the audio, but really nice piece of lined uh allied paper that just is so gorgeous, it just sparks like, oh, what do I'm gonna do with that? How do I use that? Because it's just something I want to own, right? I want to own that on a knife, I want to own it in my I want it in my pocket, yeah, right. Um so yeah, that's that's really the motivation, right? Is using the cool stuff so I can I can have it play with it.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Well, and I I think uh something that I think about with materials is when when I put it on a knife, I like the idea that somebody is uh owning a story behind it, right? Because I mean you think about it, like is is World War II era like industrial denim really that like that great to work with? Or are there are there some things that are like a little bit more pricey or a pain in the butt to uh to get to the dimensions that we want them to be? Probably not probably not, but it's a cool story, and you it's like I don't know, it's as old as people like putting their own teeth or bones or ashes or things like that in knives. It tells it it's a very personal story. It's the same way with like anvils. Like I collect anvils uh from time to time, and I and I like the idea of where that thing came from, who was beaten on it, like whose whose livelihood did that thing represent? Um and so all that's really interesting to me. Um yeah, what what do you uh um how how are you guys coping with the um higher prices and and uh like vintage macardas and things like that now? Has have you noticed an effect to you, or is it um um like I I have mixed feelings about it uh because uh yeah, like back I I bought a shop from an old timer uh that I you know I knew I knew uh buddy from work and his dad was a knife maker for forever. And um and he had some uh ivorite and I was talking to him about you know, hey, I'll probably put this on a knife and whatever. He's like, he's like, don't worry, don't even concern yourself with that junk. Like put some like desert ironwood or some mammoth ivory or something like that on it. And then there was a time when I was unemployed that I ended up selling that, and uh, I was offering it for like not that much. Um a big block of it was probably like I think I was asking like 250 for it. And this guy was like, this guy was like, no, like I I I I can't I can't do that. Like I'll I'll get like I think he gave me like double or a little bit over what I was asking for it and and said, yeah, it no and I do appreciate that. But the thing is, is that even now, if I looked at the dimensions and everything of the of the material that I sold, I it probably would have been like closer to eighteen hundred, two thousand dollars. Yeah, but you know, I mean I s but you know I needed I needed the money at the time and I thought it was fine.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

And I like the market the market changes too. I mean, the more we use it, the more the price goes up. So what you can't really go back and say, you know, it's it's relative.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah, there were but there were some three sixteenth inch uh scales that the original price tag on it was seven ninety-nine. Seven dollars and ninety-nine cents. And and and yeah, I included those and seven dollars and can you imagine? And so I I can understand from from some of the old timers that they're like, you know, junk, right? It's like it's the same, it's the same as buying a cus uh an 8th inch or 316th inch uh thing of G10 today.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Well, you just can't get it anymore, right? I mean, you it's just it's not something that you're gonna go down to the store and get more of. So as we use it, it just the price goes up. That's what it is. But everything's cyclical too. I mean, this is the hot thing now, but you know, a lot of these slabs that you're finding, they were in guys' garages, right? I mean, nobody nobody thought twice about it, and then here we are. So um I it's cool. I I mean they're they're awesome materials. Either way, whether you put a price tag high on it or not, it's so rare that you don't want to screw it up, right? Um because you can't necessarily go find more of it. So um I have the reverence for the material either way. And I like you said, I think when down the road when, you know, the ridiculous things that we use all the time the prices go up, you know, it's it's uh it's gonna be funny to see. Um I wonder what that'll be though, because I I don't I can't think of anything off the top of my head that we make that's something we'll be like, oh yeah, I need some of that. Maybe some of the micartas, I suppose. But old micartas so it's just so stable. It's you know, it you sand it, you grind on it, it it's so nice to work. It's like I said, whatever's toxic that's gonna kill me in ten years in there, that whatever it is, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, yeah, no, no, and I and I agree. It's uh so it's it stinks and it's really dusty, but yeah, you know, there that old uh Russian barbed wire micarta, um, most of the the weave was asbestos.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Sure. Yeah, I try to stay away from that stuff, man. I I have a block of the asbestos paper in there, and I'm like, no, I'm I'm not ready to go yet.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Well, you know, I mean methos uh mess mesothelium or whatever uh is a is a thing. But it's a thing you know, yeah. I mean what um I I when I grind on um when I grind on vintage micartas and stuff, what I think more about isn't that you know my exposure rate's high, because I use a respirator and stuff, but it's like all those particles just sit around in your shop for forever.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

And you know, this thing with the glasses or asbestos or whatever is that it's really hard to get rid of.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Sure. I mean uh it's all over my clothes every day. I mean, I I never escape it. So it's uh it it's inevitable, but it's part of the industry, unfortunately. It does keep me up a lot. I I do try to be safe like you. I mean, I wear my respirator and I blow myself off with the air and all that stuff, but I mean the beard and all that, it's uh something to think about for sure. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

One thing I I didn't know that I would like so much, but I actually really enjoy is working with carbon fiber.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Yeah. Also, I mean speaking of bad things for you, uh Yeah. Uh there's so many cool carbon fibers out there right now. I mean, so many guys are making such cool stuff, camo carbon and fat carbon and all those guys. I mean um carbon fiber is not what it once was when we were kids, just the black weave, you know. Uh it's it's so cool. I I I think it's a great material. I've always enjoyed it though. I was I I'm not one of those I have uh again, my buddy Matt, he's he doesn't like carbon fiber, but uh there's always something for somebody. We have some uh speaking of Matt SpaceX carbon fiber. So off the one of the SpaceX rockets in here.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Oh, that's rad.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yeah, that's really cool. It's a really big weave. Uh we're working on it right now, one for him, but that's a cool, cool thing to have.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah. Um I I I I'm interested in um folding knives. Uh yeah, I've gone down this path of uh of slip joints and whatnot, but I I do um part of this like inheritance process of like me buying uh John's shop and everything was that um um Martin Pullen was a uh a knife maker in Texas that did uh liner locks. Um and uh you like the the old style, like if you if you look at uh Johnny Stout or whatever, it's kind of like in that same vein with the screws and everything. And I and I have some patterns of his, and I've thought about you know getting into like the a fine folder, um, you know, I guess gentleman style. I don't know what you'd call that, uh, but you know, it's you know it's more it's more old school um liner luck. And and what what I kind of like about what I'm seeing in the industry is that you know you have all these one off fixed blades uh where people are using cutoffs to make a little you know different things, but then if I look at your aesthetic, it really lends. itself real well to you being able to blend different materials inside of you know you have the space that's on the scales and you're able to uh have different components of material and use quite small pieces to still give that feel and I is is that like is that part of your industrial design like concept of being able to tie these smaller pieces together or is it a utility uh piece because you have this like little little thing that you don't want to waste no usually I it's all it's it's usually very deliberate.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Um it kind of I I appreciate that it looks like that because I I mean that's the very much the style right is kind of the utilize what you have thing. But I I uh I mean like this little piece right this little piece that I have here we're certainly don't get rid of it and at some point the build will dictate how we use that material but for the most part um you know all of it's very deliberate. I I guess it's kind of an industrial design thing I I was telling somebody else one time that kind of like getting dressed in the morning right you know uh a lot of us I you know I just wear black every day but you know you you match some people match their shoes to their pants and their hat and they're you know this and that. I I love grabbing some materials that we have around and and and like you said sometimes it does dictate you know I only have this much of this so here's how we're gonna use it but um other times it's like you know let's wouldn't be wouldn't it be cool if kind of thing um I have a a knife here on the counter that didn't really work out it's uh inlaid bakelite in I believe oh black micarta black micarta with inlaid pink and orange bakelite uh uh plugs I guess because they're round uh and it was really cool and a lot of that design was dictated by well we don't have a big sheet of this left we just have smaller pieces of bakelite so let's turn them down and and try to make you know little round plugs out of them. So yeah uh sometimes the the material dictates the build uh other times it's you know because we have so much of things we're we're blessed to be able to have all those materials it's like what are we gonna use this for? Um but less is more a lot a lot of that stuff when you're using I I say this but I just did a full dress knife but when you're losing a lot of the Damascuses and stuff like that uh less is more you know a little bit goes a long way uh again I just did a full dress one that's super bright yesterday but you know there's a place for that too. I don't know I I we like dry mixing it up you know it's it's fun to change styles I it's a little bit of a box you put yourself in to try to keep pushing but um but yeah I it's again it's kind of what keeps me going every day is sitting here and saying okay what haven't we done and what can we do with what we have so yeah it's fun I I enjoy that that's one of the best things about making handmade custom knives.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Well yeah and what I would say you know that that box that we paint ourselves in is a really interesting paradigm right because it one way you get stuck and the other way you use it as an artistic constraint. You say like what what would happen if we did this this this and this and then we modeled a few different like things that we could do with it. And you and you play with it. It's like spitballing versus getting yourself so narrowly focused on an aesthetic that that's really all you can do anymore and you're like well that's what I'm known for.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Yeah and and somebody asked me I mean people ask me all the time why don't you just do like a run of 10 knives right like I mean what you could do more if you just did 10 at a time and went through and ground them all and did you know your setup for the grind you just and I I get it. I mean sometimes I look back and I'm like yeah we probably should do that but it just again it isn't it it would be a little bit dull like it wouldn't get me out of bed in the morning and saying okay let's let's run through contouring today. I I it it's just uh I guess it's a little bit selfish and uh foolhardy but I I really like what we do um and the way we do it so I I don't know being stubborn I guess it's that artistic side I I hate saying you know art it's it's knife making it's a business it's I'm not I'm not trying to be an artist but um I I enjoy I enjoy that side of it I guess I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah I mean it's so everybody desires I think self-expression right and so what like some people call that art and some people just call it be being me right um and I I think you know it maybe some of that comes uh from like psychologically where we sit on the self-esteem versus your creativity side of things right um like I I would say in in some ways there's a lot of risk to my self-expression um you know not everybody likes what what I like or not everybody is is into it I spend a lot of money on things and it is it can be psychologically a little bit difficult to spend like you know hundreds and hundreds of dollars and you know countless man hours on something and then it's just like a humongous flop.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah that hurts and you always take that risk right anytime you do something new it's like are people going to enjoy this and I and to the material side again you know we kind of painted ourselves into this material box which is fun but um but a lot of pressure you know a lot of times it's it's things that haven't been done or haven't been done for a reason right because that material probably shouldn't be on a knife that's not you know and I I criticize myself as much as other people do like why would you put that on a knife? Come on dude that's this is a a tool not necessarily a you know something you a pocket art kind of thing. Um so there's always criticism no matter what you do but uh you hope that people enjoy it right you hope that enough people enjoy it that you can keep doing it and that's kind of where we found ourselves which we're very lucky to be able to do.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Yeah and uh some something that um I noticed about uh you and kind of what you guys are doing is in this world of like uh mental health and I I I'm gonna say this I'm always gonna preface this with I think that there's a lot of uses of mental health um that are um it's just buzzword right but I'm really kind of talking about is the balance uh balancing act of doing what you love and the pressure of getting paid uh for it and the invest the investment and and the all of the the reasons why a person wakes up in the morning and does what they do or goes to bed real late at night or pushes for shows. And it it seems like um you like I know that there's a help there's probably like a an ebb and flow to how stressed out or how happy you are with things in the shop or whatever. But it seems at least like the foundation that you've been able to set with you know we have this uh this canvas which is the knife that we that we do things on like this idea of the of the design right and then you you get to pull in materials that you think are cool or you get to um like handle material or blade material or things like that. To me that seems like every day is like just a a a a blossom of possibilities versus it being like like for for me uh in fixed blades uh especially I I don't really think about um marrying these materials together too um aggressively it's like I have I have scale sets of things and I put them on a on a fixed blade and I have this large area that I have to cover. I don't ever think about well what if I took all these little what I'd consider junk or unusable pieces and be able to stitch them together to make something you know and to me that seems exciting. Like I I I think about what that would do to my creative process and being able to uh get a little bit outside of that comfort zone of like if there's a scale set and I slap it on that thing that's pretty much like a a what and done deal but what if I open you know yeah right comfort zone is a really good way to say that right because it you know in this process it fixed plays no matter what you're making by hand I mean it's not just knives but uh when you spent so much time making something you know uh a knife and then knowing that this last thing pushing yourself that much further that something you haven't done could screw up this whole process.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

I mean I can't tell you how many times we go back and it's like why didn't I just play this safe? I mean I had this over here this could have been done four hours ago if we just stopped and done it the way we've done it before why are we doing it this way what what kind of button for punishment am I that I'm continuing to do this right um and it to step out of that comfort zone and keep doing it repeatedly yeah it it's like you said it it looks like a lot of fun right it's like oh that's cool you have this thing but realistically it's it really gets it gets to be a lot. You know you you learn lessons and you're learning it the hard way because you can't call somebody and say hey have you ever put some poured resin with some titanium? Like how does that work right um we did that uh years ago I I remember the first time I did it I mean that burned in my brain because obviously the titanium's gonna get really hot right I mean I'm gonna grind this titanium it's gonna get hot it's gonna melt the resin you can't put those two materials together and grind them dummy um but I mean there's always a way if there if you if you have a desire to do it you can work it out. But yeah it's it's again it goes back to like hey why are you even doing it in the first place? Those two things probably shouldn't go together but it is fun. And and when you find something new you know anytime you take risk uh and it works you found something new hopefully and other people can build on that and you kind of keep pushing the industry which is fun. I love being part of that. I think that's something that the knife community has in droves is you know people that are willing to share their ideas and the things that they've done so you can do it too and push it a little bit further and compare notes. You know it's I know other industries that I enjoy very much that people aren't that way, right? Every everybody in this industry is so closely paired that the little things that you do are such trade secrets that you can't go share them with anybody. And knife making is really not that way. So uh it's fun it's fun to see that progression echo through the industry right if you're you're pushing things and other people start pushing things and how to use materials and how they're put together you see that progression happen and and that's definitely I've seen our impact not that it's just us you know lots of people have been doing this for years but the little things that we've done that people are like oh that's cool I think I can take that a little bit further and uh that's fun. I I like it. It's cool. I I look forward to seeing more of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yeah well and and knives didn't always used to be that way either I think we're in a renaissance period with uh maybe it's the pendulum swinging in the uh in the the liberal share everything type of way right because back in the day it's like you'd have all these knife makers that really did treat finishing Makarta in a certain way as being a trade secret. And then somebody gets a look a little bit mad because nobody wanted to share that information and they're like okay well if I learn this process I I I'm going to do it. I'm gonna dig my heels and I'm gonna learn it. But then I'm going to tell absolutely every single person how to do that that ever wants to know about it. And we're we're not we're gonna change the the paradigm about how we think of trade secrets. Like if I can reverse engineer it that I'm just gonna share it with everybody.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

And and yeah I I mean I definitely I well well what I've always said is just because I can explain it to you doesn't mean you're gonna do it. Especially in in you know trade craft things like this it I mean I can explain our process in making knives to anybody and it you still have to fill in the blanks. It's not going to happen that way every time and you're gonna have to learn how to think on your feet to make it work. And that's 90 I mean 90% of my day is trying to do the same thing we did last time and make it work the same way. I mean it's uh it's really really difficult and that that's something that comes with time and experience and you can't explain that to somebody sure you know finishing my carter right that's a that's a quick step that makes you stand out you know if you're blasting it versus polishing it and all of a sudden it comes out a different different texture. Ooh it's so cool. And I think people still hang on to those things because it's it's something you want to play a little bit closer for a while so that you can be known for it before you let it go. And I still see that happening uh that's okay but the the aim is still you know we've talked a lot about the super superficial finishing stuff but the aim is still to make a great knife. The cosmetic stuff can be cool but unless the knife you know I always tell people you have to hit the basics you know it has to center and it has to lock it has to have that nice crisp break it's got to fall you know all the things that that folding knife makers really love you have to do all that stuff first and then you can get into how does it look and that's that's like I was saying earlier you know it's sometimes we push it too far. You know you take a great knife that worked great and you try to do something silly to it like add too much heat and you ruined a very functional knife doing something you had no place doing right like some some veteran knife maker would look at you and say why the hell did you do that?

SPEAKER_02 35:16

That was really stupid you took something that worked and really messed it up right um uh but yeah I mean that's that's what presses everything right pushes the industry a little bit yeah it's like uh it's like telling uh children that they are not supposed to uh run before they learn how to walk but you know what's interesting I think as a parrot and also like in the creative process is like man sometimes you have a kid that just learns how to run and walking is just like okay well it's just uh I'm just doing running slower.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Yeah yeah but there's always that like you know everybody it's that that second you know intrinsic nature of like well my my path was hard yours should be too and you skip a step oh yeah yeah yeah and and that's I think something that's difficult about being in in a creative medium is gatekeepers.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Um it always seems and I don't maybe it's uh something that I've just picked up on because it always seems like in my life there's always somebody that tells me no and I'm a I'm people will tell me I'm a contrarian by nature. Um and so if if I if I see somebody that tells me no I'm gonna like not only is it going to be a yes but I'm gonna do it in spite of you and I'm gonna do it really audaciously.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yeah I a lot of very successful people have that nature about them.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Well I don't know that I'm successful but you know at the at the very least I speak a little bit louder in rooms and try whatever but but you know like gate gatekeeping is one of those like really weird paradigms in uh in knife making where you know you want to respect people because they they say maybe slow down and learn this thing or whatever. But I'm gonna say 50-50 chance that the person who's telling you to slow down is just so that you're not running ahead of them as it is that they want you to learn fundamentals so that way you can you can go faster when you get to a certain point. It's really hard to determine intent and whether you have you know people who are really trying to mentor you or they're trying to get you to slow down because your competition is just too hot for them.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Yeah I you know I having having had kids these days, you know it's one of those things like you could when you hand somebody the path and I I could I'm thinking of a couple makers off the top of my head that I've experienced that have taken some a gift that a knife maker has given them right not not always made them earn but a a gift they have given them in the knowledge of their craft and swindled it. Right? Absolutely run it into the ground because they didn't appreciate the value of the of what was being gifted to them. And I think in lots of things I think you know if if if more people went and I think that's what they're trying to do is show you you know not walk you through the path but try to point out some obstacles along the way and when we run down the path instead of paying attention to those things we we miss a lot. And it goes back to the the problems in making knives you know you can think that you got it all figured out and you go sell something and and you know it doesn't lock right or it doesn't do the these things that these fundamental things that have to happen because you didn't know enough to to pay attention. But when you do it yourself you they they get into you. Like when I talk to my wife sometimes she'll tell me something three times but until I ask I'm not actually paying attention right I mean it's one of those things that unless you've learned it on the job sometimes it it doesn't actually sink in enough for you to apply it. Yeah I think that has a lot to do with it. But yeah I I get it I I don't I've never felt like we I didn't have like a a mentor in this I mean uh Shane from Scorpion 6 shared a lot Matt Westburg helped me a lot um with some of the the uh from Bergblades from some of the things but nobody really you know held our hand and walked us through it so um I or or for that matter you know mentored us to the point where they were explaining what was going on so I I think I think everybody has their own path. I wish somebody did though right I w I wish I could have sat with somebody like Peter Carey or something and and had him really because it's so many things that I still haven't figured out that I that he has I know you know the little gems of of experience that that make all the difference.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

I I I wish I'd had that but um yeah we you know we just put a machine in the garage and started cutting things which a lot of people do that too right oh yeah yeah I mean I I would say that that kind of self-invention is really good especially if you're not like losing digits or blinding yourself or inadvertently giving yourself like lung cancer too early in the making process. But you know and that's um that's one thing I I I appreciate knife making now um more than I think I would have you know 30 years ago uh if simply for the fact that um there is way there's way more that is accepted in the in the in terms of how you play with things right it's it's like there's one path to this so there's one path to that and it's all very regimented and if you talk to a lot of the old timers um it's like this is the way that I learned because that was just the way that you know mentorship or whatever happened. Yep and I'm not gonna say it's like it's more basic because they had less tools and less knowledge uh like collective knowledge like you had to go to books and everything. But now we have this like you can get a little bit from social media and see what's on people's benches and their Instagram photos or you can you can see who they follow um for certain materials or what they're using. You can kind of it's all about like espionage at this point as a maker. If you if somebody doesn't specifically tell you there's still there's still artifacts of how to do those things and if you if you think a little bit outside of yourself and a little bit uh outside of that box you really can actually qu like gain a lot of knowledge without having to ask anybody or suffer the humility of being told no.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yep no I agree I absolutely yeah it's uh I mean again it's a lot of how we learned how to do this was watching people's Instagram and being you know the super sleuth oh look he's he screws the blade down during that process or you know the turntable here's how he centers it kind of little little tips and tricks like that.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Absolutely 100% I I I always say I don't know how knife makers made a living before social media before technology right I mean just selling the product and it's so hard to make any anything but especially knives in a in a garage or in a shop by yourself um you there's positives and negatives right you push yourself harder sometimes because you you know you want it perfect and you don't know what the other standards are um which is cool or you know the other side is you just don't realize the presence of what other people are doing right like we're we're inundated with what you know what keeps me motivated to keep pushing is because I know what everybody else is doing and I see their product and it's like oh let's go harder right let's do more um which is good and bad I mean this we're we're talking about social you know social norms these days that and uh that could be positive and negative on our society that you know pluses and minuses but it's uh it's interesting it's a it I certainly wouldn't be able to do it without it you know we we wouldn't be able to sell knives I wouldn't be in this industry if I if without the technology and the social media and the little things like that that I've latched onto you know yeah I mean I I I don't know if I'd agree with that statement in the sense that you're a creative guy and I think that like regardless of whether you had very basic uh materials and and uh equipment you you still have that spark that we like if you wanted to do it there's nobody that could tell you no right yeah um but but that that's an interesting like an interesting paradigm because like when I look at the the old guard about um you know CNC and well you're not actually making the knife or whatever I'm like pish posh like I I don't believe that at all like I mean I've been in IT since I was a kid and if people told me that using AI to to help program stuff was was going to be cheating I'd tell you to you know blow smoke right but you know it it's like it's a tool that helps helps to change the dynamic of how I'm able to ideate and iterate on things. Right. And like I don't I don't embrace it because I want AI to be our like our overlords. I embrace it because right now AI is actually really stupid and it's not it's not intelligent. It's you know it's a it's a glorified search engine. Yeah right. Right. But in the same what in the same way like I I know, dude, you cannot get me to touch CNC and programming um uh machines or anything like that. It just seems so over the top difficult. Like I just you know coming from like I I do program some things and and whatnot but all of that is it's it's within this like world of IT and server management and hosting. It's not like it's not doing operations on a machine and I couldn't figure it out. So I have a lot of respect for people who just can toil away at figuring out that stuff and messing up a bunch of things because I just I don't have the uh I don't have the sack for it.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Same absolutely I I tried I I tried to learn G code and all that stuff. I I just my brain you know the even 3D modeling which I'm I'm okay at I'm not great at uh I can get by a little bit but um I get so irritated you know I'm trying to put these services together and it it tells me I oh no I'm sorry those services don't mesh. It's like let me show you I'll take you over to the grinder right I will show you that those two services match I can do it right now. And that frustrates me uh a lot. So yeah I I I have an extreme respect for the CNC guys. I I I would love to be able to do it. I just I physically cannot um I'm sure someday I I will learn a little bit but currently I have a reverence for it because it's a lot of work. I mean that's a lot of fine tuning and um you can't you know shoe what do they call it it's not shoestring but you can't like wedge that in there right you can't take it shoe shoehorn shoe horn that's it thank you can't shoe horn that part in there because it it's it's not gonna fit but uh yeah it's it's a lot man well yeah and uh I I like I've heard the rhetoric before it's like well but once you do figure it out it's oh it's always like there's there's something else there's some other reason to be contrary right yeah but but then it just like yeah it yeah it just works and you can make a thousand of them and you just had to spend that small amount of time no no no no you don't understand how material operations and tooling and all those things work.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Yeah I mean like it you take a very basic like old school pantograph right I mean they're they're very common uh they're more common now in in slip joints and pocket knives than they they ever have been right but you you take the same material um well the same tool and you try to do to do the same thing on different material and you find out pretty quickly that things change constantly it's like I can't do I can't do like hard materials and soft materials with the same cutters and the same styluses and they don't fit the same and all those things and if if that's the way it is with panographs which is a very like like ancient um form of of uh CNC as it were right I mean it's uh uh yeah what what makes you think it would work on a very fast very expensive machine where everything costs an exceptional amount just to get down to like you know the specificity that you're trying to get to you have a panograph yeah I have two I'm jealous I've I've almost bought one multiple times but you know I hear they're you know it's kind of like having a hot rod you gotta really love it it doesn't always work for you um yeah uh if you ever really want to understand panographs real well talk to Tim Robertson yeah um up in Oklahoma uh he I I think he's pretty well uh single-handedly brought back the uh the panograph it used to be very very very niche uh but you know he started to uh collect them and rebuild them and then sell them I I don't think he does it so much anymore but when it comes to knowledge on just how to use them um it's pretty incredible. But you know something about panographs is um you know the the you have very simple panographs and I was actually familiar with panographs uh from my days in jewelry because uh the uh very small ones you can do engraving with and so one over here I think yeah um I forget what they're there's a few there's a few manufacturers that made them back in the day right um but they do not handle being able to cut out pockets or things like that very well but then you get to like the mid-tier which is still two-dimensional like the Gordon P 1-2s which you probably see a little bit more often uh and they do well but everything kind of like how well it it translates your um your pattern to the work has a lot to do with how mechanically sound it is and and how how you're setting it up with the cutters and everything right and so there's there's even though it's pretty exact it's also not that exact and then you get up to the 3D model ones and the big ones like the decals and everything um and you have more ability to do kind of what we're what you're doing um but it still is like a slow as as she goes type of thing. Like you may as well just invest the money in a CNC machine to do it. Because at the point where you get into like the that three dimensional side of a panograph it really has it it's like uh everything on a panograph is like Kentucky windage. You just gotta kind of like aim it in a direction and shoot. Yep. And and and hopefully you learn enough about it where you can get pretty precise but there's a lot of variability way more than I would appreciate.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Well I'm I'm glad I didn't buy one then because that that would just I mean obviously with all these machines you you learn them over time right the little things the little niche things but um but yeah I I love the possibilities right uh the inlays and the the things like that. I mean I I thought that would be a lot of fun but um yeah sounds like sounds like a lot of fun I don't necessarily need but if I need one I know where to I know where to find you.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Yeah well if uh I I'm gonna say like uh putting my consultation hat on here I I think that it would be really cool for you because of what you can do with inlays and things and and also if you have if you have the ability to do like the th like 3D printing for all of your models right and all your patterns that you want to do and then you can translate that to different materials you can make it work. The the thing is is like if you have the space you probably want to go with like a three dimensional one just so that you have the ability to do contouring and other things that come off of your 3D models. But if you can pair those together you can really come up with a lot of interesting a l a lot of interesting concepts and it's it's worth it is worth the investment. I mean they're not so expensive you can get a you can get a three dimensional uh a three dimensional panograph usually for under five grand there's always more tools man you never have enough yeah yeah if you have the space for it it's different like I I would probably keep out of the two uh Gortons that I have I keep one of the Gortons I'd sell the other one and I would get a three dimensional either Gordon or Deckel but I work out of a two-car garage basically it's a little oversized and I could not fit that in with everything else that I have so yep yep that's a thing yeah I mean CS space it's always a question like and you know they don't require an exceptional amount of maintenance like they they have uh the good thing about panographs versus I think CNCs in some ways is that um although things are manual with your your models or patterns or things that you go can go off of um the fundamentals of the machine are pretty act uh pretty simplistic in a lot of ways yeah no I I I mean that's it's kind of that that concept of like I just want to get in there and do it right I mean that's one of the things about the CNC that makes me nervous is it it's over there doing it by itself and I'm not involved.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

So the panagraph seems a lot more hands on. So someday someday I'll I'll play with it a little bit but like you said I mean it's probably better to just go the C and C route and invest in that which we did a couple years ago I just I couldn't couldn't make it work for us but at some point we'll have to go down that path. That just seems the natural progression that we just enjoy making you know I I like making things with my hands. I like I enjoy standing in front of the grinder in the morning and you know uh playing with contouring and sanding that Fordite you know I I also find that sometimes processes like that or or machines or 3D models you end up designing for the thick for your design you know for your level on CAD for your level of understanding of C and C. You know you're you're trying to make things that work within your your level of understanding versus being more creative which is what I enjoy about the handmade right I if I come up with an idea I can go over the grinder and sit there and play with it until I get what I want out of it versus trying to you know like I said earlier I I'm terrible at surfacing um in CAD you know rather than the CAD model telling me I can't do that so I figure out something else to do. Nice to be able to go over to the grinder and do it. But double edged sword, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Well yeah I mean I I I worked on uh uh I I was working on some prototyping stuff with Klein Tools um was the last year maybe it was earlier this year or last year um and uh it was it was a pretty cool deal because I mean client tools a lot of people know them especially if you're linemen yeah um and and they're uh one of their uh facilities is located in Mansfield Texas which is like right down the road from I didn't know that that's cool yeah yeah they they'd been moving some stuff up from like the upper Midwest I think they had uh some some factory stuff in and they've been slowly moving some operations down to this other location but um other than the stuff that um is like is like it's covered under NDA stuff because you know they all like keeping buttoned lips about it. Um it was basically just a process of grinding some prototype blades and the cool thing about it is that I actually got a perspective into um how industrial manufacturing works for for cutting tools and things that I I just had zero idea about. But you know in the prototype phase like that's that's the same mentality. They're like okay well you know we could design all this stuff out but in order to get it productized first we got to know whether somebody wants it and we got to do that. Like we got to make it first and then once we know that it's like you know it's theoretically possible and the lessons are learned from that then we can figure out how to engineer it into a production line.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Right. Yeah I mean that was one of my favorite things about uh industrial design was well favorite and least I like I like designing with constraints right I mean as much as I like to tell to go over to the grinder and do it myself um it's nice to be able to say okay this is not possible on that scale I I love that stuff you know I mean yes as a one-off or as a small batch C and C knife this works great but if you're gonna do it at scale it's a little bit more difficult kind of thing I would love to know more about grinding too that industrial grinding that that's fascinating to me because I don't know how some of these larger companies you know like the overseas China companies how are they grinding these things you know I I I get the general idea I've I've been exposed to it a little bit but um I'd love to know more about that that's that's cool that you got exposed to that.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Yeah well I I know very little about it. If you want to talk to somebody who is uh learning that process uh Lucas Cow from Squid Industries oh yeah um yeah they actually what when I talked to him on the podcast several months ago uh they were actually they had purchased a machine it was being built I think in Germany or somewhere so yeah somewhere like I hear all the best ones are German yeah I've heard that yeah this goes goes to show um but uh the uh the the training and stuff like that they were doing but he's like you know if you know of anybody who has some like details on how to run this thing let me know we purchased it and we're waiting on it to ship and everything but I think by now I haven't talked to him recently but it like they like they're actually going down that path of being able to uh do all their frames and whatnot and then also be able to industrially grind their blades uh for their non-trainers and uh probably by now he knows a little bit more about it assuming that he received the machine and and they're working with it.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

But I mean it goes back to what we're saying. So I mean one of the things I've experienced with the more uh commercial companies that use commercial grinders like that. And again the reason I want to know more is that a lot of the designs I come up with sometimes they say oh we can't grind that on our machine right you know I can do it by hand because I'm sitting there feathering it but our machine doesn't do that. So I'd love to know more about that so I can speak to them on it, right? Oh, you know, yes this is how this works but it goes back to that you know you can only design for so much because a machine won't isn't capable of doing it. Whereas I can do it by hand over here, right?

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Um yeah just one of those things I I I I I strive to know more so that I can make what I want you know yeah yeah and uh the the larger thing that I've um I've I've been able to glean from it is that you know you're you have your grinding wheel um that you know go makes its passes and everything to remove the material but there are certain types of geo like uh geometry that it can and can't uh perform. So maybe it'd be able to do some compound grinding or things like that uh but there's in the geometric plane of what the machine is capable of moving around like and what's industrial avail uh industrially available that's kind of the thing. Yeah so may maybe what you're gonna have to do is pull in some of that industrial design uh knowledge and everything and custom build a machine to do all the grinding.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

There you go that's it right there. That's I mean but that's how you progress right you you learn more about it and say hey what what if it did this and then you know you gotta go gotta go do that stuff. There's enough people that want it then then the industry moves and progresses and but yeah yeah it's it's fascinating stuff. I I don't expose myself to that stuff enough. Well I'm so I'm interested you know um I you you say we a lot yeah when it when it comes in the context of of knives right and I'm interested to know with with keyness and knives uh who comprises the team and and and how does the relationship between you and what you have have brought to the the business and then the rest of your your team uh like what is that dynamic like the collective we we we as in the group no uh yeah so um it's just Will and I uh Will Walker is uh my buddy and partner in in all this um he Will does all the machining so uh I you know back to the original story I started Keenison with a a friend of mine um my background was in industrial design so you know I kind of sparked the idea I came up with the logo um the name and and we uh started on the stray was our first design uh well I say our was my first design as the first knife I ever ideated uh which was really cool but you know a lot of ignorant things came from that things that I didn't know when I designed my first knife that I know now. Um so we started with the stray uh and Will joined us very early on in our process probably the first two years he came in and started doing all our our uh machining uh Will didn't have a big history in machine you know uh industrial machining he was a uh professional welder so he knew metal a little bit but we brought him in and he learned real fast uh put him in front of our grizzly mini mill and he just went to town so Will's been working with me for a long time now so it's just the two of us here in the shop. And I say we, you know, just because we do everything together. Um I do all the design I do the finish work will does the machining I do the grinds we do lockup and detent together. I do lockup he does detent so we just have a good vibe going you know we have a good back and forth. We uh you know I I I try to do all the clerical stuff I do all the design uh I design all the stickers all the branding all the hats and stuff like that so um I do the marketing and things like that as well. But yeah it's just just the two of us. He's as much a part of this as I am. I couldn't do without him at least you know on the handmade side design wise I I love designing knives. It's something that I I hope to do more of um if you look at our catalog like you know we don't really repeat things two things don't necessarily look the same uh which I enjoy uh I like pushing you know I when I design knives it's like what what style do I want to do? I want to do a stiletto or I say that because that's something I'd like to do but you know something cool and and or the FIDO that we came out with you know it's kind of a I call it a gentleman folder we were talking about that earlier. Just kind of a smaller you know what what your dad used to carry kind of knife. So you know I I like designing in those strength strain like that. But yeah it's the two of us here every day man we we we uh he's my work wife we we work in pretty much the same space all day every day um we don't we don't talk very much honestly um I I work in our our our warehouse is pretty big we have a dirty room on the other side over there this I'm in the office now and uh Will works in between in kind of the machine uh area so we say hi in the morning I go to my dirty room I sit in there for six hours and work on knives come back in tell a joke or two see where he's at what he's up to and and we kind of get back to it it's it's almost like we're doing it by ourselves but uh we have a good back and forth good communication uh you kind of get together every week and go back and forth on what we need to do and and what little changes we need to make and um it's fun man i it's it's hard to work with people it's you know not everybody are compatible but uh will and I do very well he also helps very much on the creative side we talk about the materials being a main part of our business uh when we started out it was definitely me doing a lot of like hey here's what we're gonna build but uh we've gotten a good back and forth like I said good communication so you know I'll say hey Will what do you think of this or hey what I'm I'm kind of hit a wall here pick up some materials and try to figure something out and he he does great I mean he's got a couple builds going right now of material combinations he came up with and uh and so it's it's fun we there's there's lines here and there like I said I I do all the finish work in the grind um so we we usually will do all the machining during the week Friday we do lock up and detent whatever he did that week um and then Saturday I come in and and start grinding. I usually do the profiling and contouring uh and then do like the the primary bevel on the blade and try to do all the cleanup of the blade on the on the third wave there. And then you know finishing polishing anodizing all that stuff. I do all that but then tuning too you know Will's great at the tuning uh holding knives take a lot of you know kind of like love there at the end to get them just where you want them a little bit more lock bar a little bit more of this you know um so he helps me with that a lot because sometimes you know like we say it's hard to hard to make things in a garage by yourself. You're not always exposed to the outside world you know kind of get in your own head. You play with something for four hours and kind of like you know what I need to need to step away from this or I'm just gonna drive it into the ground.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:38

So it's really nice to have somebody else in the shop to bounce things like that off of and uh yeah we work really well very well together so yeah and that's a rare combination I think in the in the creative space to be able to find somebody that you can be creative um by yourself but then also be creative as a team. Yeah and you know and also work through the fundamentals of like getting stuff done. Because if everybody is an artist then everybody is also a pre Madonna and very difficult to work with. And so it's nice to be able to have that dynamic where you can like both be physical and do the work and then also be creative and help with like the conceptuals of things. It's a rare it's a rare thing to find.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

And and we you know you joke about work wife but it's it's it's a very similar to that right I mean it's it's like being married. I mean I I spend a lot more time in here in the shop with Will than I do with my wife most days during the week. And uh and you can get on each other's nerves and and uh but yeah to find somebody whose personality you know he's very different than I am you talk about the pre Madonna thing I think I'm the pre Madonna I think he uh he deals with my my artistic side here and there at Will's and it's nice it's nice to have that compliment Will Will's very much the let let's get things done Kind of guy, right? Like hey, get off get off that. Like you're overcomplicating it. We just need to make a knife here, right? Yeah. Which is really nice to have. It's it's I I I I'm grateful for that quite a bit because I I probably would drive a lot of things off the off the ledge sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Yeah, well, and I I know that because I've been divorced uh once and remarried again a second time. So I mean you you sometimes are not always compatible. Um and it's it's nice to be able to to have that and to nurture that because you know what once you get that secret sauce, um it's it's kind of off to the races. Um and and I can definitely appreciate that. Um when it when it comes to uh tooling and things like that, so you you you talked a lot about um you know a mix of of you know new technology and whatnot. Um all the grinding right now you guys are doing by hand and it it is a single piece at a time, like you're not doing any batching at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

Nope, no, I'm sorry, I'm I'm nodding my head on or on a uh podcast. Yeah, we're on an audio-only podcast. I I forget. No, yes, uh, we do them single at a time. Uh I sometimes, you know, I sometimes we'll have two, if we're especially if we're getting ready for a show or something, where uh it's like we have two of the same model we're taking, so I try to try to batch them a little bit so I can set up the grinder and you know do the grinds um all at the same time. But yeah, primarily we just do one-off stuff. Um we have uh I think we have nine m nine different models that we offer right now. And uh for lots of different reasons. Um a lot of it is uh the materials, right? I mean it's hard to come up with six different ways to do one model versus oh this material would look really good on this one, whereas this would look really good over here, let's do each one. Um and we just kind of fall into that groove where we we just uh we make what we want when we want to make it. Um the only thing that we are batching right now, and I'm looking at them right now, is uh we have our stray 2.0, which is a a C and C knife from Jim Vandevelt, um HMC knives. So we're doing you know hopefully ten at a time of those. So that that's the only thing that we batch right now. But otherwise the the handmaids are all one-off. Um which again, I I enjoy. I don't I don't mind that. I mean I Some of the knives we grind uh freehand, so like our our canine model and our alpha pup are free hand grinds, no jig, no table. And then a lot of the newer ones that we're doing uh involve jig grinding. So when you're doing the hand the hand grind, uh freehand grinding, it it really doesn't matter if you're batching or not, right? You're just burning the same parts of your finger. Um so uh it didn't really help. But now now that we're doing some of the jig grinding stuff, I see that the promise in it. But yeah, man, I I just I really enjoy I don't find that it helps my process to do multiples at at the same time. It doesn't like I end up speeding through it thinking that you know I'm I already did it, let's just do it again. Um and screwing up things that I probably wouldn't have wouldn't and shouldn't have done you know previously. Um yeah, no, I I yeah, all one off. I don't I don't know why I'm such a glutton for punishment, but that's what we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

Yeah, well, I mean it's things like that interest me because I think about the the economics of running uh a shop, right, and the um uh customer demand and all those things. Like when we talk about uh knives as a business, um doing doing things at your level on a one one by one perspective um has its uh constraints from uh uh you know how much money you can make out of a out of a single knife and how much uh how many how much expansion you can do and so on and so forth. And so um I I think it's interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:00

I mean it it sure, it I guess it does. I I don't know. I you know, I I've I've played with this many different ways, right? I mean it's it's one of those things what we're I think part of the part of what's fun about somebody making handmade one-off knives is that it's a personalized thing, right? It's and I don't mean that you uh it used to be when we did customs, you know, you would tell me what you wanted, but still to think that that the person making the knife spent the time and the detail to just build that one. Right? I it it kind of loses a little bit of luster when it's like, oh, this was a bat it and and don't get me wrong, I still love I mean, more power to anybody doing that. I I I wish I I was, but it loses its luster a little bit in your brain when it's like, oh, it was one of this batch, right? Um I I still like that idea that somebody spent the time and and I I mean I literally have a relationship with each one. I spend a few days a week in that knife, you know, in every detail and every little nook and cranny of it, not saying, okay, I got that done, put it to the side and get to the next one kind of thing. Um and again, I I think that's what you know handmade customs are. It's it's that you know that time and each one has a personality, you know. You you're you're donating to that knife. Um and I I'm not so much a fixed blade collector, so I I can't speak to that as much, but with folding knives, they have a personality. You know, some of them fall a little bit lighter, some of them have a crisper detent, some of the locks are a little bit further or a little bit earlier. I mean, each knife has a little bit different vibe to it, and and some you speak to you, you know, it's like, oh, that one's great. Um, and others, you know, that that's not really my style. I like a little harder detent, I like a little this. Um and that's where a lot of the production stuff um for me is a little bit sterile. You know, when you look at especially uh, and and we have our first China production knife out right now that we're uh I'm packing up over here. This knife is so good. I mean, it does everything I want it to do. It's such a crisp detent, and it breaks right where and it falls, and the lock is so solid. It is so good that it's almost sterile, right? Like you know, it's almost personality-less. This one is the same as the next one, it's the same as the last one. Um, and it's awesome that way, right? Because everybody gets that thing that they want, everybody gets the cool action and all that. Um but at the same time, it it's almost you know, not what you're looking for when you say this is a handmade product. Sure, you want it to do all those things, but you also want to know that the guy making it took the time to spend it, to put that personality in it, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:43

Yeah, yeah, and that and I get that. And it's a it's an interesting dynamic between um presenting products that are um mass produced is the wrong word, but you know, like b batched uh production grade products and handmade because you know you have this paradigm where you know um I I see it more now. Like uh Enrique Pina uh was a good example of being able to take these really phenomenal slip joints that he made by hand and being able to convert that into a production um methodology and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

He's such an awesome guy. He he does great with it. I I love all the things that Enrique makes. Uh every design he comes out with, every knife he comes out with is one that I would totally carry. And yes, you're absolutely right. I mean, uh very very seldom do you pick up a knife maker's you know production and then go back to his handmade and say, I, you know, they are all like they're equally awesome, right? Like these things are like the handmade is exceeding my expectations because it's so good. Um I feel that pressure a lot. You know, when you're gonna do a production uh a production model of something, you know it's gonna hit all those boxes, and you're like, oh man, do you know there's always that pressure. Uh do am I doing everything that I can to make it that awesome, right? Um there's just so many aspects to folding knives that I enjoy, but also lament, right? It's like I when when they don't behave the way I want them to, when that detent's not breaking right where I want it, or it did earlier and now it's not. It's just it's a it's a very emotional process. I I go through the ringer every day. It's uh I I picked up mountain biking because I had to do something after work to like, oh my god, I gotta let this go. But when it when it works, man, it when it all comes together and that knife is just what you want, it's so rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh knife making is a process of shooting yourself in the foot all the time and pretending that you can still walk.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:40

Sure, absolutely, yeah. And and then not crying about it because nobody really wants to hear about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:45

Yeah, it's like, well, you did it to yourself. It's like uh you ever see that meme where somebody's like uh riding in a bicycle and they put a s a stick between their own spokes. It's like that. Like complaining about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

It is exactly but man, it's so much fun. I I still, you know, we're talking talking poorly about it, but I just love it. I mean, I I love everything about it. I I still very much enjoy my day. I love being able to I love that other people enjoy it, um, is the best part of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:11

So yeah. Um, so you know, that something that I've I've kind of noticed uh through social media is uh you have like these different models that you do and these different things that you try. And I would say by and large, like my perception at least is that everybody like really likes what you're doing, right? Like I don't I don't get a lot of the visibility where you have big duds um or anything like that, but um maybe maybe you're just good at curating the failures over the uh specifically about us, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:48

Yeah, I I I thought we were talking about us as a collective.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

Um oh no. Nobody cares about me. Talking about you, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

Okay, all right. Um so the the question, you know, was uh were that for me again?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:03

Yeah, what what I'm saying is that like the secret sauce of like you guys creating things and trying out different material combinations and what you're putting out there, it it it just seems like there's a lot of support for what you guys are doing. Um and again, like I I know that there's like there's all those behind the scene failures and things that uh maybe maybe me as like looking in the social media side of things does not get to see as much. But it it seems like um at least that um uh people are picking up what you're throwing down. And and to me that's actually really encouraging because what you guys are doing is is very unique to your your aesthetic and what you're trying to bring to the industry and to to be able to have the validation of not only people in you know your collector space, uh, but then also you know winning awards and things like that too, uh, for what those are worth. Um it seems like you guys are you know doing pretty well.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

Yeah, thank you. No, that's that's awesome. I mean, uh it's uh it's one of those things, like you said, I mean, nobody ever sees the trials and tribulations that lead to that point, right? I mean, just kind of look at the end game and say, hey, look, you know how how great. Um it's taken a long time. You know, it's uh it's definitely we set goals for ourselves. Um just something that was kind of ingrained in me as a kid is you know, you gotta if you don't set goals for yourself, you're kind of just driving blind. So um we try to set goals for ourselves, Will and I, every year just to say, you know, here's what we want to do this year. And if we don't get there, we're kind of falling short. Um and a lot of it has to do with pushing ourselves and spending the time and and effort to do things better. But yeah, I mean, I I consider it very lucky. Um my buddy Israel uh arcane design, he was out here, I think it was over a year ago now, but um we were just talking about knife designs and and you know how to do new things, and it you always feel the pressure, you never know if people are gonna like it. Like our Fido model, I'm gonna bring it up again. It's something different than we've done ever before. I mean, it's like nothing else in our catalog, and I don't know, I didn't know how people were gonna receive it. And it so far pretty well, but I mean it hasn't really I'm I'm shipping today, so we'll see how much people like them. Um but there's always a risk that it's like, yeah, this wasn't what I expected or wasn't what I wanted. Um so it's certainly not a foregone conclusion. I mean, I I wouldn't say um I wouldn't say people just consume it, but uh but yeah, uh you know, back to Israel's story. He said that all our all our designs kind of have a vibe. You know, they all they all have kind of a common thread, which I don't see. Again, you know, when I design a knife, it's like here's something totally different that I've never done, and I want to I want to see what I can do with it. And I guess because it comes from my notebook, it has a similar vibe because I'm doing them all, but um at the same time, I don't, you know, I don't necessarily see the common thread in all of them from my perspective. Uh, and it was cool for another designer to sit there and be like, no, I I definitely could pick them out of the lineup, you know, which one you did versus somebody else. Um which is which is a huge compliment to me as just a knife fan that likes likes designing knives, right? I like sketching them. I like I love the process of designing folding knives. It's so specific. Um because once you think you have a good shape, you know, I I sketch everything by hand first. You can have this great speed form, it's like, oh this blade's great, and the handle shape's awesome. And then you put it in, I put it in Illustrator, I just trace them out on Illustrator and I try to make the blade fold into the handle, and there's no freaking way you're gonna fit this really cool blade in this really slim handle, right? It's just not feasible. So then you spend the next four hours playing with shapes and trying to drag things around, trying to get from your original concept as much as you can out of that to the final form, because folding knives are very much dictated by the function. Uh, and I enjoy that very much. I I I think that that's such a cool aspect of folding knives that you you have to, you know, it has to do this, it can't just be whatever. And and some of the challenges from uh and I don't know him very well, Tough Knives. I don't know if you follow uh I don't even know his first name because I've never met him, but such a great knife designer, and I I see in his designs a lot of things that I've come up with that I couldn't get to work, right? I couldn't get that to fold, I couldn't get that to nest, and he does, and it's like, wow, that's so cool that he can do that. Um I have huge respect for that. So yeah, it's uh I I I love that aspect of it, and I I like the creative side of knives, and I'm glad that they all I'm glad that I have a vibe, but yeah, it's uh I every every design is kind of a I hope people like this. It's it's never a foregone conclusion like oh they're just gonna be into it. Um but yeah, I I appreciate that. Uh fun to hear it from an outside perspective because uh for me it's just making knives, man. It's like I like I like the vibe. I like I like uh I want to design things I want to carry.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:02

Yeah, well, and I I think uh well, I mean they say perception is reality, right? But I mean, in I I keep coming back, I think I have to iterate on this fairly often, but that that's one of the the enigmas of knife making that really kind of caused me to do this podcast because I was struggling. I was really struggling to try to find my way inside of knives, and I'm like, well, you know, I talk to all these people about different stuff and like you know, bounce ideas off of them, and the industry is really great for being a sounding board, except that I have an inherent distrust of what everybody tells me. And so and so there's there's a portion of it where I'm like, I I don't know whether this is right for me, and I don't know whether this is right based on the context that I exist inside of the industry or whatever. And so um what I what what I noticed is that there's this big question mark around what causes people to uh be creative and what gets them into knives in their fist in their facet and how what's their perspective on things. And I said, you know, if I understand more about what those threads are, maybe I'll be able to find my own, right? That I w I wasn't just making knives to make knives, I wasn't just you know replicating patterns that I've seen in the past or using materials that you know I I quasi-like, or responding to customers who want specific things out of me, but I just really want to kind of like discover what my own thread is. And and so there there's the eclecticism that you have inside of this this uh mechanical constraint of a folding knife, right? A very specific type of pattern um or or m mechanical uh process, and then you kind of expound on materials and and your designs and everything, it's very reminiscent of Frank Lloyd Wright um architecturally, right? If you think about Frank Lloyd Wright's um um different applications of his uh of his architecture, you notice you notice that there are things that are always him, right? But then whether he's making a a an office building, whether he's doing a ritzy um like falling water in in Pittsburgh area, you you see that there he's working within the constraints of the medium, but then he's also applying his his aesthetic to it. And that I I don't know if um you'd never he never necessarily think that well that was his style, but he was pushing for certain things in his head, and that just comes out in the work. Yeah, and um I I can appreciate that um in what y'all do. Like the the Alpha Pup uh, for instance, is one of my favorite um designs of y'all's. And it doesn't matter what configuration I see it in, it's just it's just there's something about it that I just genuinely um like. And one day I will buy one of them from you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:54

I appreciate that. Uh definitely the the most recognizable design that we've done. Uh and you know, I I love Frank Lloyd Wright, by the way. I I totally I totally understand what you're saying. You know, if he's doing a house in Arizona in the mountains and he's trying to blend it in with that, you can see his style versus doing you know one in the mountains. It's it very it it stands out. So I totally understand what you're talking about. Um but yeah, yeah, it's uh the alpha, everybody I mean, everybody seems to really enjoy that knife. Even you know, they said that the uh the age of the cleaver knife in knives was kind of dead, right? People were really into cleavers back then, the rad cleaver we mentioned and and all that stuff, people people loved, and we did that knife a couple years later, and it was kind of like I don't know if people are gonna like it. But I drew it, uh I drew that knife in uh on vacation with my wife um years ago, and I think it was our first honeymoon. And I I drew it, I was sitting by the pool sketching the blade shape, and it was one of those like, oh man, that's it. Like, I know that's gonna be cool. I love that. So um I was really confident in that design when when we came up with it, but um yeah, you still never know, right? I mean, like I said, it was everyone was like, uh, people are kind of kind of over cleavers, which is it's more of a sheep's foot, I guess, but um but it was one of those like I I don't know how it's gonna be received because it's kind of an oversaturated type style at the time. But it's kind of it's it's I mean it's been years now, so it's uh it's held the test of time. But yeah, I'm I'm glad you like it, man. I I really it I have you seen have you ever seen one in person?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:29

Uh no, actually I haven't.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:31

We'll have to work that out. Uh and then we, you know, before we did the alpha pup, we did the full size alpha, which is a much larger version of that. Um, which people really like too. Uh they sold very quickly, but the pup is a more manageable model. But yeah, man, it's uh it's cool. I I'd like to do more more variations of it down the road, you know, kind of keep that general shape and see what else we can do with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:53

Yeah, well, I think some of the I I guess maybe when I looked at it, maybe it's reminiscent somewhat of a cleaver, but you know, uh some of the things that I I look at in that uh design is I I really like the the grind lines and and and how that fits into the proportions of the blade. It's actually very reminiscent of a straight razor. Um if you a little bit. If you look at if you look at the the contour of the grind um and how it's how it it thins out, that that to me looks really cool. But then also it's reminiscent of like the uh Japanese style choppers like the Nikiri or whatever. And you know, there's there's kind of like a bunch of different aesthetic elements that I see in that that really make it tasty to me. Uh and I I don't really know how to describe it, but it's not just one thing, right? It's it it doesn't it doesn't represent like you can't necessarily call it a sheep's foot or a or a cleaver or you know like a straight razor or whatever. It just has a uh elements that married in their proper proportion just um speaks in a complex way. And I think that isn't that like what you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:06

Yeah, yeah. And and to go back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, that's I think it's one of those things that wouldn't necessarily have happened if I had had some mentorship, right? If if I'd been under that old guard we were talking about earlier of the of the guys passing the torch of like, oh no, you can't do that, right? You can't you can't do that grind up at that angle, it's not gonna work that way. Which, trust me, when I like the stray, you know, I those those grinds are designed out of ignorance. Neither one are easy to do. Um, and they're probably super counterintuitive to what actual knife makes like what the old guard would say that you should do with a knife, but out of the lack of influence and and my ignorance and you know, having not spent a lot of time by the time I designed that knife, building them by hand, I just you know, I I'm so stubborn that I'm gonna do it anyway, right? It's like, no, you shouldn't do that. Well, I I shouldn't, but I really want to, and I'm gonna I'm stubborn enough to put in the time to try to figure out how to get it done. So um yeah, I I I think that that's cool. Uh that that we can push things a little bit like that, but certainly would have been easier to just do a straight across, you know, straight grind across the bottom of it. But uh yeah, cool. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. It's it's uh it's a fun knife to make. Um you know, we only make a hundred of each design, so we're coming up to the end of that, and I'm gonna miss making it.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:26

Oh yeah. Yeah, no, I I I have heard something about that, and so I'm kind of like, uh maybe there's always the aftermarket.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:34

Yeah, right. Yeah. I but again, at some point I'm gonna have to bring it back because I I I love specifically that knife. Uh the the stray, the first knife I made, uh, the first version I didn't like. The newer ones we make, I have all the changes, so I'm enjoying it again. But I love the alpha. It's it's some knives are hard to make it lock up, some knives are hard to make you know, break properly, some knives are hard to make fall. That alpha man, that it's just that design, something about it just works so well that uh at some point we'll have to bring it back.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:04

Yeah, well, um I'm interested. I saw that Neil uh cameramorous at your shop. Um it was the alpha that he was interested in making, correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:15

Yep, yep. We made an alpha Neil made an alpha. It was it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:19

Yeah. Did you did you know uh Neil before that experience with him wanting to come in and uh and talk in your shop or kind of what was the relationship like that there?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:29

Yeah, uh so I met Neil at Blade Show Atlanta three or four years ago. Again, COVID years are kind of it's probably been four years now. Um maybe four plus. Knife industry is small, man. Neil's Neil's a cool guy. Uh we have a mutual friend, uh Hawk's nest, my buddy Matt, that I keep mentioning. He sells material to pretty much everybody. So and again, the knife community is small. So um yeah, we we chatted a little bit before we we hung out in Atlanta um one year. Just you know, him and his son and his crew and uh talked a little bit and um I love what he does. He's such he's such an amazing creative guy. I remember watching him on Forge and Fire and stuff too. So I I'm I'm a little you know, I'm a I was a little starstruck hanging out with him. He's he's a cool guy. But yeah, we struck up a friendship in Atlanta and we used to talk on the phone every once in a while. He uh he's always interested in sharing, you know, like we talked about sharing ideas, right? I mean, he's always when especially when I'm etching uh carbon steel, he always hits me up and is like, hey, I figured out a new trick. Because carbon etching carbon steel is such a pain in the ass, man. Excuse me. That was my that was my my slip there, my one slip. Uh making uh for uh etching carbon steel is is an art, right? I mean it's a labor of love. And uh you really have to spend the time to to to develop a method for it, and he really has him in uh uh I forget the name off the top of my head, but they they spent so much time going back and forth trying to figure out you know a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and so uh we developed a friendship over the years, and he was in town that weekend. I didn't know he was gonna be here, and he called me up that morning and was like, Hey, I'm in Austin, I wanna I want to make knives. And I said, Okay. So we drive I drove out and picked him up and and actually he didn't say he wanted to make knives, he just said he wanted to hang out, so I brought him to the shop and I was like, Well, what do you want to do? You want to go get some lunch or something? He goes, Well, I want to make knives, I want to make folding knives. I was like, Oh crap. Okay, well, let's how much time you got? He's like, Well, I got today. So it was one of those, okay, let's see what we got around the shop. And he had some alpha parts sitting around. I had a blade. Uh that was a full-size alpha too. That wasn't even the pup. So we we had retired the design. I was like, well, you know, if Neil wants to make an alpha, we make we make Neil an alpha, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:52

Yeah, Neil gets what he wants.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:54

Right, Neil gets what he wants. So we we I had all those materials just sitting around the shop. Uh the blade was ready, and we worked. I mean, I think we left the shop about 11:30. He got here, about yeah, we we did we went about 12 hours on that knife straight. Um, and we had already had the blade heat treated and cut and everything, so it was just assembly and sanding and finishing and stuff, and then we etched it and he came back the next morning and we put it together. But it was a really fun project. It it was really fun to see the contrast. Like, like as a handmade as a folding knife maker, everything's gotta be square, right? I mean, you look at a folding knife and the blade's gotta sit and all this stuff. Um, so I have my horizontal grinder where I'm sitting there with the wheel and I, you know, zero, this is a 90, everything's square, okay. Let's profile. And so I put Neil in there with the knife, and I'm like, okay, here's how I do it. And he's he's hacking at this thing, and he's he's like, no, I'm not doing this. So he went over to the vertical grinder, he just turned it up to 80 and sits there and lays in it like a like a like a fixed blade maker, right? Like just sits on it until all the material's gone, and he's like, ah, that's about square. You know, that that'll work. And I'm like, Neil, are you sure you're gonna screw it? Nah, no, it's close enough, man. I'm like, but it was really fun to see that. And even you know, he ground the blade, he did the whole thing. So it was fun to kind of give my input on it and then see him take it and put his spin on it, which Neil's always gonna put his spin on everything. That's that's who he is. But um, that was a fun experience. Yeah, yeah, it was cool to have him in the shop. But he's he's a good buddy, man. Um he we we we talked quite a bit. We also did uh uh kitchen folding knife. Uh yeah. So the year before that, actually, before he came to the shop, we did his show in Sacramento uh forge to table uh table, forge to table or something like that. Yeah, and we did a uh collaborating, we did a kitchen folding knife. Um it's about 13 inches long, got a six-inch blit cutting surface, and that was a project that he called and he's like, hey man, I want to make a folding kitchen knife, can you do it? And it was really challenging, but a lot of fun. Um so we we bonded over that too. But yeah, he's a he's a good buddy, man. He's a he's a good guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:06

Yeah, uh he uh he obviously has been hang hanging out with uh Steve Schwarzer too much because like my my understanding is that like Steve is like that too, where he's like he'd call you call you up and like, hey, like I'm gonna come in the shop, and they're like, Oh, okay, well, uh like when what do you want to do? It's like I'm here, I'm there tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:22

Yeah, let's make knives. Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:24

Like right now. Like, okay, well, I guess I guess we're stopping what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:29

Yeah, that was an interesting no kidding though. That's exactly how it went. He's like, uh, and I remember I'm like, oh, you want to get something to eat? No, I want to go make knives. Like, oh, geez, here we go. It's gonna be a late night. No, but it was a lot of fun. Uh that's one of those experiences you you uh you remember forever, man. Cool that he had cool that he wanted one, right? That that he cared enough to come get one because uh, you know, the Cerning tastes being what they are.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:55

Well, yeah, and um it's always interested me in the like the celebrity knife maker now. Like, I mean, maybe maybe that was uh common in the old guard and the guild and international makers and stuff, and then we have this like a little bit of lull, and then some people have taken that forge and fire experience like and and been able just to take it to a completely different level, right? Because you know, like Neil, Neil's like friends with uh Jason Momoa, and it's doing like this kind of like celebrity thing, it's like similar to like Jason Knight, right? Um they're just they're taking it to a different like celebrity status. And I missed my opportunity. Um my daughter heart transplant a recipient, and while while we were in the hospital, um I was planning on going to a hammer in at Texas Ferrier Supply where Neil was gonna be at. And I just wanted to like, you know, get to get to see what he was doing and everything like that. But I was like, you know, even though I could have left the hospital, I would have felt bad because of it. So it's like you know, yeah, yeah, you take no reason to do that. Yeah, no. I mean, so yeah, I think about that because I made the right decision, but I also uh missed an opportunity to just to get to hang out in that. I guess it was really exciting. You know, Texas Ferry Supply has people come in once in a while that just kind of you know pop the scene. Um and you know, I've I I'm interested in talking to people like that mostly because I want to discover like what is the progression of thought or um serendipity to get from, you know, um kind of where I'm at just as like a you know a lowly knife maker, right? To you know, somehow this thing happens where you just you know just become real popular, you're a household name.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:39

The the community's small, man. I mean, I I mean realistically, I mean uh the the three degrees of whatever it is, Kevin Bacon kind of thing, it I mean, in knives it's you know one degree pretty much across the board. I mean it it's there's not anybody that and and even you know I I've had people buy knives randomly that show me and uh and I've never heard of the maker, but we've been to Blade Show three times, you know, he's three tables over, right? Um and and I never talked to him. So uh it there's a lot of people in the community, obviously, but uh it's it's neat that it's that small. Like I met I was at uh USN a couple weeks ago in Vegas, and uh I'm standing in line and the owner of Protech is uh is standing behind me, right? I'm like, you know, I I yeah I think his name is Dave. I forget off the top of my head, it's the first time I ever met him, but we're just talking about how long this line is, and and he's wearing a ProTech shirt, and I go, Oh, you work at ProTech? I really like their stuff. And he goes, Well, I kind of started Pro Tech. It's like, whoa, that's really cool. You know, speaking of knife famous, it's a small community like that, right? Where it's like, oh yeah, I mean, now we kind of know each other. Um, and everybody's uh to my experience so far, barring like one or two people, everyone's super welcoming, really nice people, always willing to talk. Really, I mean, I don't know if it happens that way with all groups, but uh not the knife community to me is just like my kind of people. Um I've been in IT, I've been in lots of different industries where I just feel like the outsider. And finally, in you know, the knife community, it's just a lot of like-minded people that I enjoy getting along with. Um I I I've told people in the past, you know, regardless of how this goes, you know, we I hope Keenan is around for a long time, but regardless, I found what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. Like I I enjoy this enough that I will be in knives forever. Uh I I couldn't imagine doing anything else at this point. So um it's it's pretty cool. I I enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:36

Um, I would agree with you. Um, you know, like I I was uh I was at Atlanta at Blade Show and I was sitting right behind uh um Steve Johnson. And I didn't realize, dude, everybody like everybody was coming up and wanting to get pictures with him. I bet you in probably a hundred or more pictures, I'm there, and somebody could probably see me crating my neck around and like photobombing them. Because I was like, what's going on here? But then, you know, uh we had candy set up on a table uh that my buddy couldn't come to. Um, and so uh uh his wife and him, they were you know sitting at their table doing their thing and they were like, you know, we haven't eaten anything. I was like, well, like do we like can we get you something? Or do you like there was there was like no, these little snacks are fine, and I was like, okay, and then we got to talking more, and I'm like, dude, I've I've like I grew up with your knives. Like I your logo alone is iconic in the industry, right? I said, but I'm I guess I just did never put the two together, like this face belongs to those knives and everything, and you know, uh well it's like you and I, like we've never met, but uh I've seen your knives around for forever in the Texas scene, especially, right? And I've even seen you walk around at shows uh and stuff, but we've never been able to connect um uh you know physically. But that's what one thing I I really like about shows, and I like about um specifically what Blade Show has been doing, is because there really does not seem to be a separation um between uh knife makers at a show like that. When you're you know in a big exp uh uh you know exhibit and and everything, you really can meet just about anybody and have really great, genuine conversations. And it's not like you know one one's the lowly knife maker and the other one's celebrity status. It's just like we're all just here trying to do this thing and and enjoy the vibe of the the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:30

So and and keep the industry going, right? So that we all have customers to sell knives to. Um I I always tell you know, there's so many great knife shows uh across the country every year, but and Blade Show is overwhelming. Blade Show Atlanta is just I mean, you said you've been out there, it's it's it's an experience, right? I mean, it like nothing you've ever done. But and as awesome as the show is, the best part about Blade Show Atlanta is the pit afterwards. Yeah, absolutely. Right? I mean being able to just hang around, talk to people, see other knives, play with knives, not just collectors, but you know, makers are down there hanging out, and and like you said, it's we're all I mean, there's there's no such thing. I mean, famous knife maker, whatever, but you know, everybody's just a person down there. Everyone's just trying to make a living, and and the knife industry as itself, I mean, it's not like a huge moneymaker, nobody's pulling up in a Ferrari out there, right? I mean it it's uh we're all we all we're all just trying to to to stay with it, but uh but yeah, I I enjoy that so much about what Blade Show does. Uh the way that they get you get to interact with makers and collectors and things like that. It's it's a really a surreal experience. And all the shows are great like that, but Blade Show Atlanta specifically really has a great great at you know, the after party is the best way to get in with makers and have conversations. But show floors, like you said, we we've probably seen each other on some of the shows, but when you're walking the show floor, it's so hectic, man. It's like there's it's like overload. There's knives, there's people, there's you know trinkets and things all over the place to keep your interest. So it's hard to uh hard to see anybody out there, but um, but yeah, that it's it's really fun to be able to hang out and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:19

Blade Show, well, lots of knife shows are like this, but Blade Show specifically is what like uh for me like walking in a casino. Like I know I know I have some money to spend, and I ended up walking walking out in debt in some way. It's like like like Blade Show, Texas. Yeah, dude. Um, like I'll have all this handle material that I wasn't planning on it, and maybe I'm stuck in by stopping by Vegas Forge or something, and maybe maybe my kids convinced me to buy a few ballasongs, and I'm like, what? Like, I I I might have sold a few knives, but now I I got back into red. It's like right.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:52

I know that's what I'm saying. Like, same thing for us. I mean, all the materials, right? Especially all the materials. You can just go crazy, right? I mean, I could come home broke every time. I again I try not to buy knives and I try to be very sparing on materials these days. And obviously, I'm gonna get it. I always kick myself. I end up getting home from the show and sitting down and ordering material online, like that was gonna save me any money, right? Like, what was I I should have just bought it at the show. I I I always but I I want to come home with money, right? Like I want that positive, like, okay, I had all the money when I got home and now I'm gonna spend it because otherwise it just goes, man. I uh I I haven't met Mike Norris in person. He's been at Blade Show multiple times, but I I haven't gone to his table because I know if I go, I'm just gonna walk away with a mountain of steel because he's just so talented. Um and the guys at Vegas Forge are some of my best friends. I mean, I always leave a show with something Vegas Forge. Um that's not cheap. Um and I mean Chad Nichols too, good buddy at I was just thinking, I I I need some Chad Nichols stuff, and I I don't think I'm gonna see him in Utah. Utah's the next one. You ever been out to the Blade Show West?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:02

I haven't. Um I had a I had I had a reservation on a table last year, but then my heart uh my daughter COVID caused her to go to some heart rejection. Uh just like a bad immune system response. And so she had to go on these treatments for six months to try to keep her from rejecting her heart. And I was like, you know, I have this table uh on reservation. I think I put a deposit down on it, but I was like, I just can't go. I can't see myself going to a show and trying to do this knife thing, knowing that my heart is back here in Texas and suffering through that stuff. And so, you know, you know, you make decisions, but um it, you know, it was the inaugural year of Utah and whatnot. Um I I heard it was great, but um I didn't yeah, I decided after that entire experience, I was like, you know, maybe I'll do a few local shows. Um, but I'm going to take just a year off to kind of like reevaluate what it is I'm doing with my life. Um and so like uh next year I started back up with uh Blade Show, Texas. Uh we're still kind of undecided on uh whether uh probably not gonna go to Atlanta. Um I might do I might do Texas in Utah for a while. Um but it's mostly like in like in Atlanta, I kind of balance out like the the fact that if you're doing Airbnb uh versus uh staying in uh you know the local hotels or whatever, it is cut there there are traffic constraints and whatnot, and it's you know kind of like the hood around everywhere. Uh although although I didn't mind it too much, but I I swear like there's always something going on. And but um may maybe maybe we'll do it next year. Um maybe not. I don't know. Uh my wife is kind of deciding factor on that. But you know, like the something they always are. Yeah, something something about like the the balance of of shows and everything is like uh m my wife has been like very, very supportive um of the fact that I must go off and do these things, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:46:05

Um every holiday weekend.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:07

Yeah, well, basic basically, right? Um it it like I used to be a very aggressive hunter. I was like pretty much when it came to any type of season that was worth having, I was out there. And when I wasn't doing that, I was fishing in the meantime. And I kind of switched that addictive personality to uh doing knives. And so I you know, it in that way, you know, I would always try to schedule some type of thing that we could do extra as a family around the knife show. And she's like, no, dude, like you we can't do that because like while you're prepping for the show, it's like you're you're zeroed in on it and you're doing the show, and then like if we do anything before or after the show, you're just either burned out from the show or you're getting ready. You're it's always on your mind. And she's like, we have to have separate family time. And I'm like, Well, it's I can do it all, it's fine. But then I realize I need to be able to be present with them when we're when we're doing things. So yeah, very true, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:04

It's really it's a tough balance. I my wife is very patient with me. I like you know it's this knife thing is not easy, and you know, we've talked about it. Some days I'm really excited to be done with my day, other days not not as much, you know. And uh and it's it's uh it's an up and down, but yeah, it shows. I mean, it's literally every holiday weekend, every long weekend you have in the year, is there's probably a knife show. And uh that happens that way. She's she's very understanding because otherwise she it would it would be tough. Um the the knives, they're a fickle mistress, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:39

Yeah, and yeah, I mean, and and our our families have to share us with not only the knives, uh, but then also our customers, but then also all of our friends. And yeah, and it's it it's like I don't I don't have knife guys uh or buddies that come over every weekend and just hang out. Like we don't do dungeons and dragons and we don't do grindings and stuff like that. But like there's an exceptional amount of time that I spend just you know uh cultivating relationships and friendships within knives. And uh some of my you know best friends in in in life are actually in knives now too. Um and I've I've found that it's a very endearing um to to have a support system around what it is that you're personally doing too. Um but yeah, the family sometimes doesn't like to share, and and I'm actually proud that they will tell me uh sometimes when I'm going a little bit overboard and we need to have some like time off. Like I I try to do that myself, but then they'll also say, hey, you know, like let's do something that's not knife related for once. And I'm like, okay. I get I got can you hold that thought? I got a podcast scheduled.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:50

Yeah, sure. Tell me like tell me about that later. I got something to do. Yep, that sounds about right.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:55

I'm like, you could talk to me, but we're gonna have to do it uh on a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:01

Here, click on this link. I'll be there at one.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:04

Oh yeah. Well, funny thing is like our our eight-year-old man, she she is like a fanatic about knives too. Um, and uh she's not to the stage yet where she really understands maker, like diff different makers too much. Um, but she understands like what she likes, and she looks at knife magazine and uh and blade magazine and stuff like that, and she's she's like, Well, do you want to go on like Instagram and look at people's stuff? And I was like, and she and she l she has this little clutch of handle material that in her room too. It's all like little like little things that we've picked up at knife shows and stuff. But she was she asked uh a few days ago if she could be on the podcast, and uh and I was like, hmm, like how would I how could I do that? Because I don't like if I'm talking to a guest, it's like yeah, it's it's it's a guest thing, right? But I was like, why why I was like, well, you're in I said your perspective on knives as a as a youngster is interesting to me. Do you just want to spend a few minutes and I can interview you and ask you questions? And she's she's like, that would be rad. So it's like Yeah, possibly. Yeah. So sometime soon, uh, because I told her that we could do it, and so it's just established fact that I have to do it now. But at some point, I'm gonna have a little excerpt where she can just like sit and talk about what she likes about him and I can pick her brain. See what an eight-year-old thinks about knives.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:19

I like it. I'm I'm interested. She probably probably better than what I have to say about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:25

It'd probably be more popular. You know, like I'm I I when Chris Crawford and I first started this thing, um, we interviewed each other first. And and out of all of the shows that I've done, I mine is one of the least popular shows. It's like nobody wants to hear me and where how I got into knives. But I think it's also probably because they're like, you know, we get enough of that through osmosis with you talking to other people because you won't shut up. But I have I have those are true friends. Well, I have two goals. Like, one is to learn as much as I can about my guests and just like get you know get down to the genuine, and the other is to try to put my foot in my mouth somehow.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:01

So well, I I do that very well no matter where I don't know if that's a goal for me or more just a personality trait.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:10

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's a hundred percent my personality, and I've just embraced it. So it's a goal too.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:15

There you go. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:16

I like it. Um I I have to say what I was I've been looking at like these like challenge coins and stuff that you've done, and I think that they're rad because I you know there's something about challenge coins that I'm really interested in. Um and you know, like worry stones, challenge coins, stuff like that, like the accoutrements of uh EDC. Um but uh when you were doing the um this the stuff with your tritium course, um I thought you had a Star Wars one. That was really rad. Like what what made you decide to pull together those mediums and then do tritium uh tritium vials in it?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:51

Uh so that that coin itself was a uh well I've love I've always loved tritium, but that was a uh kind of a brainchild of um David Carver and I. He was out here one weekend making knives, you know, just hanging out in the shop, helping out. I I forget it was sometime last year. And we were having a beer after work and sitting there. We were talking about tritium and um the challenge coin thing, and it it wasn't exactly that design, but I I I think I brought up to him, I was like, it'd be really cool if we inlaid tritium in a challenge coin. And then it was like, well, but we can't, you know, we can't cut all the way through or it's gonna have to be on both sides, you know. So we just just like anything, just like anything in this industry. We just sat there for a minute and went back and forth, like, oh but blah blah blah. And uh so yeah, so we you know, just it was one of those, how do we do it? How can we get it done? And I love that, you know, I so many, I have so many creative friends. Uh you know, Mike uh Key Bar and my buddy Glade who started Hellbent holsters, and I mean just guys that are just a David Carver, I mean, that are there to all right, what can we do? Let's let's let's go sit down and hash this out and see what we can do with it. Um and and there's so many people in that love doing that stuff. So yeah, that was just David and I sitting around, like, hey, what can we do? And then I came back and I I did those graphics. I looked up some images that I could trace and figure out what was cool about that, what made it difficult was and I have it around here somewhere because it didn't come out great. But uh was trying to figure out how to cut you know a channel to recess that tritium in there where you know we could have CNC'd it or tried to manual mill it, but I really wanted it to be uh have some sharp corners on it so the tritium fit in there really snugly. Uh and then we had to offset the tritium vials on either side because we couldn't cut all the way through and they were really deep, right? So there's a lot of really cool challenges on that project that came out really neat, but that was I I'd love to be able to do more of that. You know, it's unfortunately we we we keep our quota pretty tight around here of just making knives, which we do very well, but I always want to start new projects like that. I I love the guys that do that spend a lot of time with that stuff. I think next year we're gonna go back to challenge coins. We tried to do uh tactical patches this year, and it just wasn't as much fun. I I I enjoyed doing the coins. I like the uh coming up with new graphics and things for those.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:16

Yeah. Um I actually I I never I didn't I guess I didn't know um how much tritium was interesting to other people in the in industry, right? Um, but I actually grew up around tritium in an odd way. Um so my my parents um met at this company in Pennsylvania that used to make like signage and they would uh like exit signs and stuff, and they would be painted with tritium. And so yeah, and so it's like uh um I think my if I remember correctly, my mom would actually paint like the exit sign itself with tritium paint. And so, you know, they always because they there's certain um um standards where you have to have it not powered but visible uh uh on the the doors and stuff, and so they they had used tritium. And this is like you know, when when they made with met was in the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:09

Um and it had to be because that sounds terribly unsafe for tritium.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:14

Well, yeah, so if my sister, my sister was born in the early 80s, uh, it was probably in the in the late 70s approximately, right? And so and so they got married and everything, and then because of their experience in working with tritium, there was a company in Canada uh that was um um minority-owned, he was Jewish, and uh he had a watch company uh in Switzerland, and so he was he was you know in Canada, had a watch company in Switzerland, but then also had a presence in the United States so that way he could get government contracts. And you know, you have to bid for them and all that stuff, and and you get a certain um allowances for minority um owned businesses. And so uh uh the guy was doing this stuff, and um it so happens, I think that my dad had met somebody there um when we were living in Canada. We lived in Prince Edward Island for a little while, and some some startup thing that he was doing uh with another person. Anyhow, that that folded and we moved back to Pennsylvania, but whatever the case may be, um Desert Storm came around, and um in each one of the uh government-issued watches was a tritium core on each one of the dials. Yep. And so because of the fact that it's a a nuclear isotope of sorts uh and you know, semi-toxic, um they uh the each one of those tritium cores had to be tested. Um so like you so the watches um they had the tritium in them and then it was faced with crystal, and then uh each one of those watches had to be tested to make sure that the leakage of of tritium was minimal or met, you know, uh, you know, state or uh um federal and international standards. And so my parents uh in this factory, like this little laboratory would swab all those watches and put them in these old machines that just ran DOS prompt. And it would, it would uh I I I can't remember if it was a mass spectromet uh like a mass uh spec uh machine that would measure uh what was in those little vials. But I can just remember going back and forth from new uh from where this lab was at to New Jersey to ship them off and them testing stuff. Like we'd spend long nights just sleeping um in the office area uh because we couldn't go in the lab because it was you know uh not kosher um be because of testing and whatnot. But yeah, they were my dad was certified. He could have a lab assistant, which was my mom, and they could go in and test all these stuff. So hundreds of thousands of watches um out to desert storm in the late in the 90s. Yeah, and so I learned a little bit about tritium. But my mom said uh when she worked at this plant, uh if somebody tested too high for tritium, they would just send them home with a case of beer and just say to drink to drink it, and then they would pee it all out, and then they if they as long as they tested um low enough, they would be able to go back to work.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:09

Good to know. Um I'm gonna tell my wife why I'm why I need to drink more beer. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:15

But it's interesting, it like it's interesting because uh I've always thought the tritium is cool, um, especially different colored tritium, um, and and the ability to put it in things. Um, you know, like some of these watches, um, I think my dad had bought one at some point in time. Um, but you know, over you know, 30, 35 years, the tritium starts to diminish um because it you know the glass doesn't hold it for forever. But um what you guys did with that is cool. Like the the concept of being able to put a vial in there and then not break it and everything, and and also not have to deal with government regulations because you know nobody cares about that. There's no OSHA in knife making, uh at least at our level.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:00

Yeah, in in challenge coin making, yeah, right. Yeah, I probably if we if we did too many of them, we'd probably get in trouble. But um it's it's really cool stuff. I just love the concept of it. Uh, I have quite a few of them here. I'm probably getting my radioactive dose today. But um, yeah, I've I've always really enjoyed it. I think it's a really cool little uh little thing, but like everything else we play with, it's probably unsafe.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:23

Yeah, well, so um one of the last things that I kind of want to talk about is um I'm in in the eclecticism of your knives. Um, I've noticed some materials that you select that um are a little bit oddball. And I think that it's actually from you that I saw uh uh is it Chaotic Arts um does like those uh resin pores. Um and and I I had been talking to him since I can't remember when your first uh your first use of that material was, but do you find yourself like reaching out into the industry and trying to find like unique stuff to put in your knives? Um because that's that's one example of uh you know early on his stuff was pretty cool, but he's like taking it to a completely different level with some of the stuff that he's doing now.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:13

And I'm like I agree, those 3D printed things he's doing, so cool, aren't they? Yeah, I mean speaking of that, I just bought something from him the other day.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:20

Yeah. Um it's well I I bought some stuff from him. I know that like now his stuff like he posted up and it's like immediately sold. And it's it's cool to see because uh, where is he at in Missouri or uh upper Arkansas, somewhere like that?

SPEAKER_01 2:00:36

Somewhere in there, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:37

Yeah, and taking it from like really small batch to the demand being higher and him still keeping that small batch type of mentality and and process and and then taking his artistry to a completely different different level. Like all the stuff that he makes, I'm just really interested in. Um, and it's it's I think it's beneficial in in this uh in our industry to be able to find stuff like that, kind of like diamonds in the rough, and be able to incorporate it into things and then that be like an established norm. Um do you look do you look from uh makers like that of materials and things and try and try to invest early on in them inside of your own work?

SPEAKER_00 2:01:18

Uh yeah, I mean I I'm always looking, I mean I feel like the the short answer is yes. I'm always looking for something new, right? Something that we haven't tried before, but within learning, you know, the things that we've learned about the constraints of what we do, right? Uh which the chaotic stuff is is awesome. Um it's one of the things that's you know it takes a little bit more patience to work with. You gotta learn your process so that you can do it properly, which is great when you when you nail it down, you know, there's there's applications for everything, and I love working with his stuff. He's he's so talented. Um but yeah, I'm I'm always looking for for the the new new stuff. Um I think mostly because it gets played out a lot, right? There's so many things that people use repeatedly that that we don't want to keep doing, you know. I it sounds bad, but you know, I it it some of it's just overdone, and it's like, well, what what else can we do? What can we do that's a little bit different? And I don't know that we need to, you know, I don't actively go seek it out, but uh you know, just like anybody, I I I'm I'm a fan of materials and um and the resins and all that stuff, and and I like I like trying it. So I think these days more so people reach out to us and say, hey, I've got something new, will you try it? Right? Because they know that we're not gonna be that guy that's like, oh sorry, that really shouldn't go there. More like, yeah, we'll give it a shot. Like, let's see how it goes. Let's see see what it what it does. Um so I think we get a lot exposed to that a lot more these days. But um, like I said, I I my background's in industrial design. I've always really enjoyed materials and um and I I like pushing it a little bit further, uh seeing what you can do with them versus but everybody does. You know, we we talked about finishing micarta being played close to the chest back in the day, you know. I think everyone's looking for the new the new cool stuff, the new Ultim, right? Um that that that you can use that's gonna be very stable and and and work well for the industry versus some of the other stuff. But yeah, yeah, man, I I I love materials. I I always looking for the next thing. If there's somebody listening that has the next cool material, send it. We'll use it.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:33

Yeah. Well, I mean, uh examples of that are like uh when when you did the uh the Hawk's nest uh uh dollar bill signed by Alan Um Shepard. That was pretty rad. Um that one was crazy. The force uh forged bronze by um was it hot hot metals. Um yeah, that was a cool one too. Yeah, I have a I have a pair of his knuckles uh that I bought at Lost Pines two years ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:58

Um he's a good dude, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:01

Yeah. Um but it's you know it's interesting to me. Um I think that there's so much room to be able to look at materials and aesthetic and um and patterns and design and and come up with different different ways to express yourself and I case in point is is really what you guys are doing with your knives. So that's kind of like the lesson, uh, lesson learned, I think, and and kind of what I want why I wanted to talk to you is just because the way that you pull things together is so unique and so beautiful and and artistic that they really they're you're you're going to be the Frank Lloyd Wright of uh of the not not mid-tech, but the Mac uh Mac industry. Frank Lloyd Wright and Mac combined together.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:50

That would be fun, man. I I I that would that would be something to aspire to. I mean I'd not just to have the notoriety, but to have the respect of the rest of the industry like that. Um would would mean a lot. You know, we talked you mentioned the awards not being everything, but you know, it's one of those things that shows you at least you're on the right path, you know, um and that other people are paying attention and that the rest of the industry respects what you're doing, which is I think the most important thing. Um you know, everybody's got their opinions and everybody's fickle here or there, but um you know, to to know that the people that are working really hard to do the same thing you're doing have respect for what you're doing is is everything to me. Um I think it's it's a huge huge part of why we do what we do. Um and you know, the contrary is the same too. We talk about the critics, I mean somebody's always gonna say something bad and say, How dare you do that or something like that. But um But yeah, I mean just so you're doing something you love and it's easy to point out the people that are faking it, right? The people that are just doing it for notoriety and some people do it because they love it. So um hopefully people see how much we enjoy what we do in our work and comes across.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:04

Yeah. Uh I I think that we all um we strive to be able to exist in a world where validation is not required. And we build up the mantle of our being to do that, but secretly need validation. It's like it like having like having a hug from your parents is like the is like the most comforting thing. And I think having it like being embraced by the industry and by your your your peers and by the people that you admire is also important.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:36

And that was very well said. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:38

Well, and I I you know, I don't know. I mean I I I seek validation. I I sometimes I think that it could be a dirty word, the same with like mental health type of stuff or whatever. Um, but like there there is a place and a time to give it, and there's a place and a time to uh receive it. And I think that um, you know, um I try to think of a of a good way of of uh coalescing that idea, but it it's basically just that I want people to be more receptive towards being, you know, being honest and being supportive. And I I think it's great that the industry is where it's at, but I know that there's still, you know, a lot of uh struggling artists out there that are just trying to find that secret sauce that makes them feel like what they're doing is valid. Um so if we could just be a little bit more like uh encouraging to people in in a way that is significant to us. Like there's things that I look at at your your work that I really uh desire, but that might not always be what you know what you're looking for. Like I I can appreciate uh the timing and the um and detents and everything like that being important, but that that those technical things are not as um uh as intrinsic to me as uh the way that things visually look. And so and so like I can speak only on the visual side um because I'm not really experienced heavily in uh the mechanical side, but you're nailing it on the on the on the visual side, and it's always something that I look forward to is seeing your posts come up and then I get to peruse through all of your stuff all over again, and it's just like you get to I get to see a story being told through your knives, and that's that's really great to me.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:28

Thank you very much. That's awesome. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:30

Yeah, bud. Well, you got knives to make, and I got knives to make for the show because I have yet to make one. Yeah, it's coming up quick, man. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I most of it's done. Most of it's done. I just need to put handles on it and grind some blades and stuff. So um, but you know, I it's an honor to actually be able to spend this time with you and talk through your craft and your art. And um, man, it's you're you're as nice in person as you you seem to be in on social media, even more so. And I just, you know, anytime you need anything, you let me know and I'll be there to help you, okay?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:03

Thanks, buddy. I appreciate that. Yeah, we're we're too close. We'll we'll have to talk more.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:07

Absolutely. Well, uh, thanks again for being on the show. Thank you, Aaron. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless.