SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmans about everything knife. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I am joined by Johnny Stout. For anybody who doesn't know Johnny Stout, I would highly encourage you to investigate his work and his art. He's been a longtime knife maker and makes some of the probably the most superb um uh art knife style um uh pocket knives uh that I've seen. And he has a very unique style, um, incorporates some of the best engraving um and uh on his work. And Johnny, it's really a pleasure to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Well, I appreciate the invitation. Uh, and I will share any and all information with you that uh that you require or you feel that someone might be interested in.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, well, probably something that you don't get to see so much is the amount of people that talk uh about your work and everything when you're not around. Uh but I I you know as a as a younger knife maker, um I I get to hear that all the time. So I mean your your work is used as a case in point for um you know art knives and engraving and uh liner locks and fine folders and things like that. Um your knife making classes are referenced fairly often. And you know, obviously we get to see uh some some of your work inside of the context of publication, uh, but you you you have a humongous reputation, um, especially from a lot of the younger guys, because your work is uh the inspiration uh and reference point that we use in getting into these uh um more I guess uh niche areas of knife making. So um that that in and of itself is highly beneficial uh just to be able to talk with you and pick your brain. So I I appreciate you uh being willing to share with us.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

So I guess my first question is um what what got you into making knives? Um like you can you share a little bit about your background, maybe what you had done before making knives, just to give a little bit of context into you know where you're at today.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Well, uh I mean I have to go way, way, way, way back. And I'm gonna start so far back that it may be too much. But when I was uh before I even started the school, I was I started when I was five in Fort Davis, Texas. I don't know if anyone know what knows where Fort Davis is, a little small West Texas town. Uh I was four years old, and we lived with my grandparents because my dad was in the service, and so we live with uh my grandparents there in Fort Davis. Well, my granddad, I was born in 1943, so you can add it up and that'll let you know how old I am. But so I was about uh I was about four years old, something like that, because I started school when I was five. But my granddaddy, my grandfather that we were living with was a government trapper. He worked for the state of Texas, and I don't know how many people today know what a trapper is, but he trapped for predators, bobcats, lions, uh, coyotes, anything that could kill sheep or calves, any kind of livestock. So he trapped out on the ranches out of Fort Davis out there on the X ranch. So he would take me on the trap line with him. Well, to where the knives come into all of this, evidently the uh state at that time provided him with his pocket knives. If he caught a a varmith that he could skin the pelt, skin the varmint and keep and sell the pelt, then he was allowed to do that. Now he wasn't trapping for small predators like ringtails, fox, raccoons, or anything like that. He was trapping for lions and bobcats, coyotes, anything that could kill livestock. So when he was uh he would take me on his trap line with him sometimes, and we'd spend overnight out somewhere on the in a tent, but uh during the day if he caught a uh predator, uh he didn't skin and and keep their pelts, but if he caught small uh uh like I said, fox or ringtails, coon, something like that, he would uh skin those pelts and then he was allowed to sell those and make a little extra money. Well, where the knife thing comes into play is that he always had a double blade case pocket knife, had those yellow plastic handles on it, and I guess the uh government, the state of Texas, furnished those knives for him, but he was always laying them up on a rock and they'd fall off and they'd crack, and uh he'd keep using them, you know, he'd sharpen them each time he had to skin a varmint and he'd keep leave them laying around. Well, ultimately, he would always break the handles off of these knives, and that and that little pin would just be sticking out. Well, when he got to that point, he'd reach in his ditty bag and he'd pull out a new one, and he'd give me one of his old knives. So, as the years went by, uh, and I'm talking many, many years, I had about, I think at one time I had ten of those knives that he'd given me. And even in those early years, what I would do, I'd take, I'd take one of them and I'd whittle out a piece of a little stick or something, and I'd get me a piece of balling wire and I'd poke a hole in that that side and I'd whittle it down, and I would put a new a new handle on the side of one of these knives that he would uh give me, you know. Now this is in 1946, 1947. So over the years, I had about ten of those knives. The years by I grew up, uh one thing led to another, uh, got married, and one day, um we uh the company I worked for back then uh they moved me around about once a year, and they would always pay for my move. This was ATT in case anyone wants to know. They would always pay for my move, and the movers would come in and pack our uh household goods and everything, and then we'd get to wherever we were being transferred to, and then we would unpack. Well, as the years went by, I noticed that those ten knives that I had started out with, uh, I ended up with one or two of them. The rest of them were lost, misplaced, stolen, or whatever. They disappeared anyway. So I kept the two or three that I had, and these were these were all factory knives. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a handmade knife at the time. But the years went by, just many years went by. So one Thanksgiving day we were we had been transferred to Odessa, Texas, back then. And uh my mother lived and my brother, they both lived in Fort Stockton out in West Texas. So we were there having Thanksgiving uh dinner with them one one time, one year. This was back in the early 80s, if I'm remembering right. Could have been late 70s. So we were sitting down at the table, and my brother went over to the kitchen and he was cutting the ham or the turkey or whatever it was we were having for lunch that day for our Thanksgiving lunch or dinner. And so he had this knife he grabbed out of the drawer and he was slicing something, some meat there. And I looked at that knife and I thought, what where did you get that knife right there? What's that? What is that? He said, Oh, that's one of Jim Moore's knives. I said, What do you mean one of his knives? He said, Yeah, he makes them. I said, You're kidding. How do you make a knife? I mean, he said, Well, he's got a shop there in his backyard and he makes them right there. So I said, Are you kidding? Would you would he let me would he let me see how he does it? And I I mean at this time I didn't know there was such a thing as a handmade knife. He said, Oh yeah, it was just a hunting knife, is all it was, skinny knife. So sure enough, he took me over there the next day, which I'm if if we were having Thanksgiving dinner there, then it was probably on a Friday or maybe even a Saturday, I don't know. So I went over there, Jim showed me how he made a knife. Jim Moore is who I'm talking about in Port Stockton, and uh he showed me how to make a knife, he showed me how he cuts them out on the bandsaw and profiles them on a grinder, and he uh ground the blade there and showed me how to do well I was hooked. There was no no question about it. So when I when I left there that day, he had sold me a bandsaw, a grinder, and a buffer. And here it is all of these years later, and believe it or not, I still have those three pieces of equipment that he sold me that day. So that was I went back to Odessa and I didn't have a shop and I worked out in my backyard for a while, and then finally I had a little portable building put in, and I started making these knives like he showed me. And I had no heat treating information, I didn't know how to do it, uh, had no knowledge whatsoever except how he showed me how to grind the blade. It was a hologrind, which is a hard thing to learn if you know nothing like I knew nothing. But I would grind so many blades and then I would send them off to a professional heat treater and have them heat treated, and I'd get them back. So then I started having all of these blades there, and I years went by and I thought I probably ought to do something with these. So I started putting handles on them, and then I I found out that a lot of gun shows they have knife makers there that have a table or rent a table and and they'll go sell knives at a gun show. So I thought, well, yeah, that'll be fun. I'll try that. So sure enough, I've spent $50 and got a table at a local gun show there in Odessa. And I took, I don't know, six or eight knives there, and I thought, I don't know how much to ask for these things, but I'm gonna I'm gonna say, I'm gonna ask $50. Nobody will send pay that, but I'm gonna I'm gonna ask $50 for these knives. So I'd take them there, and by about noon on Saturday, I was sold out. I thought, oh, this is crazy. Something's wrong here. I don't know what it is. Nobody knows anything about me or their handmade knives or anything, but they're buying all these knives. So I'd I went home and I'd make some more, and another show would come around and I would go back out there, and the same thing happened. And then I had one young man, about my age at the time. He came in one day and he said, Have you ever thought about making a custom knife, a handmade knife? I said, What you see on the table is all I know how to do. I don't know how to make custom knives or anything. And he told me what he wanted, and sure enough, I decided, okay, well, I'll try. So I took his order and I went home, I made that knife, delivered it to him at a later date, and uh he turned around and like ordered two more. And so this is how it all started with me. Okay, just as a hobby, like a lot of people have hobbies doing all kinds of different stuff. Well, as it turned out, my hobby was I had a real job still, and I worked many, many, many, many hours a day. So it was mostly just evenings and set weekends that I could work on these knives. But as the years went by, I got transferred out of Odessa down to San Antonio, and I didn't want to live in San Antonio, but my boss at the time lived here in New Bronxville, where I live now. So I decided, well, if he can drive back and forth, I can too. So I did that, and uh I may have mentioned earlier that I had started out working for ATT. Uh and again, when I moved to New Bromfels, uh I was still working for ATT, and at the time uh I commuted back and forth. I was on our what was called the area staff position. And uh so as the years went by, or during these years, I should throw this in for people that don't really know, uh, the government broke up the ATT organization uh because it was in a monopoly, and all of the different bail companies were on their own there for I think five years. And then the laws changed, and ATC started bringing all of these bail companies back in under their uh parent company. And uh when they did that, uh they had very, very, very many service employees throughout all of the bail companies, and so the group I was in, um my boss came around one day and he said, Well, we're overloaded with employees. He said, I'm taking an early retirement, and they they offered me a really, really good deal. And so he said, if you're interested, you might look into it and see what you can what they can offer you. And I think I had at that time I had 20 maybe 24 years with AT ⁇ T. So uh I decided to look into it, and I did, and so they offered me a buyout plan with I think it was seven years on my age and seven years on my service, which uh it was uh a good enough deal that I decided to take it. So I did, and I if I'm remembering right, which if it may not be exactly right, it's pretty darn close. At this time I think I was 40, 44 years old, and so I took this by out, and I still lived here in New Bronx. My kiddos were just little youngsters, and uh my wife was a uh nurse, but I was sitting at home all day uh with nothing to do except make some knives, so I started this knife show thing all over again. Well, what I didn't know at the time that in DuBronville's because there's so many surrounding towns within about 30 or 45 minutes that there was a gun show happening every weekend. Every weekend somewhere, and there still is. So I thought, well, I'll just make some knives and go out to these gun shows again and um do like I did before. So so I started that, and that's how I ended up where I'm at today, and the years that early, early on that that kind of got me to where I'm at today. And I was just doing fixed blade knives at the time, but uh I noticed that there were a lot of people that were interested in pocket knives, and like I said before, there was a gun show every weekend, and so I would go to these gun shows and people were starting to ask me for pocket knives, you know. Everybody carried a either a single blade or double blade trapper in their pocket or K or you know, uh one of the popular brands, and I thought, well, I'll just try one of those. So I bought one or two and took them apart and made made a few, and then I had a couple of uh collectors that were really uh helpful and they would critique these knives and tell me the that to do this and don't do that, and one thing led to another. And over the years I just kind of evolved to getting uh more or less away from fixed blades and into uh folding knives, and that's pretty much where I am today, even though I still make a few fixed blades. Uh I do uh what I call a Texas trophy set where I've got a hunting knife and a skinning knife and a double sheath, and those are pretty popular if I go to a show and someone still wants fixed blades. Well, so I'm available to do that. But so that's kind of my story up until now. Um and like I said, I've been doing this and I do it every day. My shop's in my backyard. I teach classes, teach a class uh one week out of every month to uh someone right off of the street that knows nothing, or to someone that's very, very advanced and wants to learn how to do some of the high-end uh folders that I build today. And uh so that's kind of me and my story as far as knife making goes.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah. Well, I'm interested, you you said that your your dad was um in in the military. What was he did he go to World War II? Yes. Um did he uh was he discharged or did he uh uh survive the war or kind of what happened with your father?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Uh he did survive, uh, but over the years he and my mother uh divorced and uh uh matter of fact, he he was he died back way back in the uh oh I don't remember now, late 80s if I'm if I'm thinking right today. But anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Was he uh was he in the uh European theater or the Pacific Theater?

SPEAKER_01 21:06

You know, I I I don't know enough about that to even talk about it. I just those years to me were just kind of years, but he wasn't there, so it was hard to think back and put a put much information on it.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Oh yeah, no, I I get that. Um so primarily raised by your grandfather then as your uh father figure.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah. Uh I uh my my dad was around, like I I was one of eight kids and he worked, but I don't I don't know that I I necessarily feel like he liked us too much, so he would always I mean he'd be around but like a l absentee in a lot of ways. And so I really I spent a lot of time with my grandparents, which is probably why I actually find that I get along more with uh older people, uh especially like people. my own age because you know I still have those like my both of my grand uh grandfathers were in World War II.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Uh both European theater. One was a um a mechanic in uh the motor motor pools or whatever and the other was uh the our army air corps uh he was a uh uh bomber pilot um so yeah it's it it's interesting to me um because I I kind of had the same experience like my my grandparents um my grandfather specifically always carried around uh slip joint pocket knives uh and uh up where I was from in the Appalachians in Pennsylvania uh trapping was a big thing and and it was you always would find uh guys that were were carrying the uh two blade trapper um kind of like the uh the Texas style uh thin thin blades um so so I I grew up with that and that's kind of what like my my early impression of of uh knives uh as well so it's kind of interesting but um when I I know that uh before when we were kind of just talking about um you know getting you on an interview you were talking about um what got you from the transition uh what transitioned you from um making uh fixed blades and charging what you did to starting to increase your prices and I I would love if you could like retell that to um the listeners a little bit about your night knive shows and um what you saw at those shows and you know the collector market and how that led to you like the price increase and kind of like where where you saw that shift.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah. Well having grown up with never any money except to pay the next bill or you know survive to the next paycheck I've never been around personally well I'm sure I had but I didn't know it people that had what I call real money. Now uh a monthly paycheck or semi-monthly paycheck you know everyone that I knew that was that was pretty much what you did you worked a week or two and you got paid and and you worked again and you got paid again and on and on and on. Well but it took me a long time to find out that people that had real money and I don't have a definition for people that had real money but I'll give you I'll give you a quick little uh uh episode or a little thing that happened to me one time at a show and there was this there was a this was actually in San Antonio but I was at a a little a gun show over there back then and and I was set sitting at my table and there was a gentleman came by and the show was just opening but he came by and he had bought a few knives for me uh and uh he uh got in early I guess because he was a he wasn't a vendor but he was a everybody knew him as a big spender so anyway came through and asked me if I wanted to go walk around with him at uh at the show and I said yeah I've got a little time here before they open you know before it's opening so we started walking around he walked by this we were going up down the aisles and he was stopped at this knife maker's table he picked up this really really nice little fixed blade had ivory real ivory handles on it and it was clean and just sharp as it could be and I thought oh man that guy just made a sale and so he looked at it and eyeballed it and checked it out and then he laid it back down and then we just walked off and I made the comment to him I said man that was a sweet knife I said I thought he said I thought you was going to buy that he said uh uh and I thought was it too high he said no too cheap well I didn't know what he was talking about didn't make any sense to me I said what do you mean too cheap? I said that was a great price he said Johnny he said every knife in my c in my collection and this may not be the exact number that he said but but he said every knife in my collection is worth a thousand dollars and he said if I put that six hundred dollar knife in there he said it would devalue my whole collection and I thought no that ain't right and I thought well in his mind it's right so that's kind of when it hit me that people that have real money that and I've seen it since then at at regular knife shows I'm talking high end knife shows where low price stuff will not sell high price stuff sells now that's not the mentality that most people that I know have but but it's that mentality is out there is all I'm saying about that that if it's if it's low in price it's cheap. If it's cheap I don't want anything to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

So I think that was what you were referring to and but yeah well yeah and it's um yeah the people who have real money it's basically the disposable income right like those those who make enough money where all their bills are paid and they have excess money to play around with and have hobbies and you know collect things uh versus just having to live paycheck to paycheck. Yes yeah and you know that's something that's common um I there's I've kind of developed this um observational system where there's the knives in in custom or and handmade knives that are three hundred dollars or less three hundred to approximately eight hundred dollars and then you know eight hundred dollars on on upwards right and usually the three hundred um dollar or less are their user knives people who are just getting into knives um or they don't have disposable income but they can come by you know you know $250 every once in a while there's the that $300 to $800 market is for people who are kind of like intermediates or kind of like a little bit tighter with their money and um are really you know scrutinizing over the price and and maker and then there's the the upper end is um you know there's a lot of a lot of collectors and and people in that range but the a lot of their focus is in um an individual maker in that specific aesthetic or or art style and whether they can justify that based on what their collection looks like. And I I I've always found that the because I I right now um a lot of my prices because you know I I work full time and so um even though I value my time I I've never really charged an like an exceptional amount for my work. And I sit in that middle tier and it seems to really be a hard a hard tier to sit in because um you're either over the money for the basic knife uh buyer or you're under the money for the collector. And so the ones like you get somebody who will invest the money in everything once in a while but the sales uh typically are not as fast as like I I had a few knives that um were part of my probationary and voting member set for the guild and I had a lot of time in them and a lot of nice materials and so I think I listed them for eight eight hundred plus dollars and they sold very quickly. But I've had some that have been you know 325 you know 450 or whatever that have sat on my table and never gotten sold and have they set on my website and never gotten sold and it's uh you know it's it seems like at times it's it's uh you can hardly give them away um but I've I've always been interested in what like the psychology of selling knives because it doesn't seem to ever make any sense like a a a knife that you a knife that you pay four hundred dollars for that's the quality of an eight or nine hundred dollar knife well you're getting 50% discount uh on that but you know what I've realized is that a a lot of people who are collecting knives are looking at the value of something as it relates to the secondary market. So if they buy today and they sell it tomorrow can they make back their money or can they make a profit on it? And if uh if they think that they'll take take a loss on it then a lot of the times they won't buy it yeah um again I I think all of us need to keep that one thought in mind is that no one has to have what we do.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Now there are a lot of jobs out there that people do have to have but knife making in one of them buying knives in in one of them you know so no one has to have what we do. So my thought is this okay again it gets back to people that well I'm not sure exactly how to put this but people that can afford it and don't need it people that need it and can't afford it and people that normally can't afford it are going to buy the three four two three four five you know hundred dollar knives and so to me there's just no one answer or one solution that's gonna uh be in place on every knife that is made. I mean fortunately I've reached um I'm in a point now to where I think I have maybe three knives in inventory that I've been kind of rat holing because I've got several big shows coming up between now and the next six months and um but for me they're easier to sell than they are for me to make and replace one that that I do sell. But again now this is something else and it's I think it's very positive and I've told this to many many many people every knife maker that I know has sold every knife that they've ever made sooner or later. Now they may not sell it today but you think about all of the knife makers out there that that that are out there today that weren't out there before you know say a few you know several years ago five whatever but it's hard to see anyone now that has very much inventory on their table if you go to a knife show we go to keep our name out there now this is another thing that I think is important to a knife maker if there's a customer out there and he's used to seeing you in a show whether he buys from you or not if he if he's used to seeing your face and then all of a sudden for whatever reason you've missed a show that where he traditionally would have seen you first thing that goes through his mind is Dad Gambling or whatever I haven't told Johnny he used to come to this show all the time or I hadn't seen him or he's not here so then he goes on and he maybe does his business someone else so just keep those thoughts in mind if you're if you're going to a show and then and then you drop that show let your customers know that hey it hadn't been productive for me to go uh it's it's too expensive blah whatever the reason I don't have any inventory if you've got good customers that normally would like to see you there let them know if you can that well I won't be there this year I'm I'm I'm doing this or my wife's doing that or whatever and uh I would one thing I will say on this if your wife loves knife shows and loves going to the show that's a very big plus in your favor my wife I swear to God if we went to a show every day for 365 days a year that'd tickle her to death because she's she's a people person and uh she'll go to the she can go to the grocery store and I'm thinking boy she must be spending a lot of money because she's been gone for like an hour and a half and she'll come back with this little sack of groceries and she'll say I met the nicest lady at the store and then she starts telling this lady's story it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

It doesn't make any sense but it's it's if your wife is on your team and then you're you know boy you let her run with it I'll tell you that's a plus yeah because all of them are not you know yeah some of them are like oh you're fooling around those darn knives I know several knife makers who have wives that are less than supportive that's for sure but you know something that interests me about that is I I think as a knife maker we all tend to be a little bit reclusive. Like being in the knife shop and making knives is something that um it's uh it's therapeutic and calming to us like we can live in a knife shop and we can like talk to our machines and what we're working on and we never actually have to be around another person. But when you when you get out into exhibiting your work um in front of people and everything like uh I have to kind of force myself a little bit to be to put on that salesman hat. Um whereas if my if my wife is there you know she gets to see the other side of it she gets to see um the the product that I'm making without all the the flaws that I saw along the way or the trials and tribulations I went to to make it so in in some cases she makes a lot better advocate for me and my work and can sell it a lot better to the people who are coming by than I can because I sometimes I'll talk to a person and I might I might shoot myself in the foot and almost talk them out of buying it. You know it might be something like oh hey you want to change the handle color up or something like that. Like I can do that. Just like message me after the show and I'll go ahead and make it for you. And then they they won't buy it they won't buy what's on my table and they won't contact me afterwards and maybe it's because I'm wishy washy but if my wife is there she'll tell them all the reasons why that's a great knife and uh how great a knife maker I am regardless regardless of whether I feel that way about myself. So it's really good to have um you know a partner that's in your corner that can help you get out of your shell and s and help to you know be the public presence for you because um I say it's in our nature to be a little bit more uh closed off and and secluded especially when we're making our knives oh I agree I agree I think if your wife is supporting you and is willing to go to shows with you uh that's that's in your in your corner that that's good stuff in your corner uh I I'll tell you let me let me get off on another it's not another subject but it's something that was that's kind of great and not great at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

But the the the one thing today that has exposed knife making to more people than ever ever ever ever before is forgetting fire the TV show. Before that show I I it'd be it'd be crazy to know how many people that it turned on that there's such a thing as a handmade knife what you do what for a living you go to the night shows and you see them there some of these some of them are the uh ones that were on the show other just followed the show but they oh they go to their table and uh if these guys are making knives and and selling them to the public then I think that is probably the one thing that has made handmade knives more user friendly and and um popular and I don't even know all the good words for it but I think it's been a very very very positive thing for not just plain old vanilla knives but handmade knives. See because a lot of people don't know that a forged knife is you gotta put it in the fire and then you got to get it hot and then you got to beat it and on and on and on and on and on they think well you you you want one of those you got to go to Walmart to the the the knife gallery and I went over there you know so I'm I'm I'm really really really and I always try to promote that genre if you want to call it that it's it's not it's knife making just like we all do just different techniques but uh I think that's been very good for handmade knives.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Very good yeah no I agree and it's uh it's interesting I I would not call myself a knife historian but the history of of uh knives in America especially um around um the like but right before world war two to now has been interesting because you know like all these like forging knives um was something that was a parallel to blacksmithing and metalworking and then as as you have more in industrial equipment available stock removal becomes uh of more readily available because of toolings there and then also when you have uh known manufactured steel coming out of steel mills and everything uh people start using that so it becomes um more easily available to the knife maker so stock removal becomes kind of its own its own path and then you have the blacksmiths and bladesmiths that do their own thing you know farriers and whatnot and you know you have the creation of the ABS and you have the creation of the guild and uh sometimes people are making knives both in the stock removal and smithing uh variety and then they kind of you know shuffle off into their own groups and uh once you kind of get past the maybe 90s um and into the age of the internet it seems like things are coming back together where you there's there is definitely a distinction between uh stock removal and Smith blades but um with forged and fire there's a lot more uh attention and a lot more appreciation from a value uh perspective put on the forged blade versus the stock removal blade um and that's something that as as a younger knife maker we kind of have to uh distinguish like I can't tell you how many people ask me well do you forge your blades uh and I was like you know no I'm I I stock remove it yeah and uh and you know because I I feel like it's it's disingenuous if somebody s assumes that I'm forging a blade because they expect a forged and fire type of uh experience and then I'm doing stock removal entirely but But you know, the fact that there are so many people that are able to get into the craft and they're able to do it in smithing and in stock removal. Um that to me is a really great thing. Like I think that there are far more benefits to the uh to the knife world because of fortune fire than there are like detrimental things. Um, you know, we're kind of living in the good old days of blades now. I'm I'm interested to know how that um changes or stays the same as like uh people continue to get into these uh older crafts again and they research, but uh but definitely I've I've benefited myself from uh you know the forged and fire um wave um because of the you know popularity for my knives and everything, so I I don't see much of a much of a downside to it.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Well I was gonna say other than other than anvils costing a lot of money now comparative to what they were even ten years ago.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah, that's a fact. Well, you know, when I when I first started making knives, it was all stock removal, but and and the steels may have been out there, but the only steel that I ever knew about for years and years and years and years and years was 440C, stainless steel. And probably my first I don't even know how many knives were made with 440C, and then along came uh CPM 154, I think was the next one, and then well actually it was CM154, and then later on CPM 154, uh, and I used to know a lot more about the make the making and the era that the the the pattern metal came into play, but I don't right off the top of my head I don't so over there on my steel workbench, I probably have at least I'm gonna say maybe 10 or 12 different steels that uh I've made knives out of that supposedly is the newest, latest, greatest knife steel, and then the next time someone else says, Well, I've got one that outdoes that, and so I've got most of those steels over there in my Iraq. But uh yeah, handmade knives today is uh I think it's it I I I don't even know how to say it. Um there's a I I still stress that anyone that's making handmade knives is to put quality before quantity. And don't put knives out there with scratches on the blade or cracks in your handle material or on and on and on and on and on. Uh training, bit training. You know, there's a lot of uh the ABS, if you're in the ABS, they have a lot of schools different, scattered around the country. Most of that is it uh triggered by forging. Uh I teach classes that are stock removal, uh, and I have I think four, maybe five different classes, all knife related. Uh the only thing I don't teach is my automatic. Um but uh if if you're interested in knives, find a good maker around close to you, and if nothing else, go in for a few days and get some tutoring. Uh like I say, plant uh uh hook up with the ABS and go to one of their schools or one of their classes. Uh but you can poof your money off from now on till doomsday and never make a decent knife. So training right up front. Matter of fact, I had a young man in here last week that is a he works in the uh I don't know what he does, has an office job, but he decided that he wanted to do something physical and get his head kind of straightened out from what he had been doing for so long. And so he spent a week with me and we he sent home with a great knife and I gave him a list of it. Now, you gotta have one of these, there's about four thousand dollars, you gotta have this, that's about two thousand, you gotta have this, and that's another thousand, and so he went home with a list of machines and tooling for about ten thousand dollars, and he said, So I have to have all of this, and I said, No, you don't. But I said, your labor is the most expensive thing that's gonna go into that now if you're on labor. If you price your labor right, you're gonna have a lot of money, a lot of money invested in that. If you put it in there for minimum wage, it I don't even know what that is now. Two or three dollars an hour, probably, something like that. You know, you're you're gonna have a hundred dollar knife. But good equipment and good tooling is is critical, I think, and it's and it's all available now. It wasn't in the early days, but now these grinders that flip, and you can get a vertical and a horizontal out of them, especially from the Travis Wirts. I've got three of his, but there's more than uh different grinders out there that do the same same thing as as Travis's does. But tooling is tooling up tooling up correctly can save you some money and cost you up front, but it can save you a lot of money down downstream there. So keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Yeah, for sure. I mean that's all really good advice. I uh I I actually looked it up. The uh the state minimum wage for Texas is uh seven dollars and twenty-five cents now.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Is it okay?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Which um you know a lot of entry jobs now pay fifteen to seventeen dollars an hour, but uh there's still a lot that are seven and a half seven and a quarter dollars. Wow, yeah. Um but um I'm interested to know um more about uh what what got you so you know you you started making knives and and increasing the um the quality uh of your blades, right? And as as that increased, so did your price. What got you into uh using engraving uh specifically as a a way to embellish your blades?

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Well, that is uh art in itself for sure, probably even much more so than the knife, at least the knives that I built. But uh early on, what I would do for I would do uh maybe a bolster, but I would make it out of Damascus, which which had a pattern in it, and then I would etch the Damascus uh you know after you get it put on and profiled and get your handle fitted up. It's the Damascus to bring out that that uh pattern, you know. And I and then there's a lot of my knives out there. Um but I you know uh it goes back a long, long way. And when I lived out in Odessa, there was a knife maker there in town uh that engraved his knives, his own knives, his own knives, and he's still out there today, unbelievable knife maker, a guy named Lloyd McConnell. Many of you may know him. He doesn't live there there in Odessa anymore, but but he was making these knives and engraving his own knives, but he wouldn't engrave for anyone else. But there was another fella out there that that actually I forgot to bring him up a while ago when I started talking about making my first uh slip joint, but was uh Weldon Whitley. And Weldon at the time lived up in Jell out of jail, New Mexico up there. He he still had a real job. And so I went out and spent a time with him, and he helped me make my first slip joint pocket knife. Well, uh I'm gonna change horses here in the middle of this stream again. So I kept that knife, my first slip joint. It was rough, rough, rough, rough. So I kept it here till about 10 or 15 years ago, and I let a collector here in New Bronfels talked me out of it. My very first number one folder. And I let him, he bought it from me, paid me good money for it, and I thought, well, I need the money more than I need my number one knife. But I said, if you ever get rid of ready to get rid of it, give me a chance to buy it back from you. So to make a long story short, years went by and he passed away, and he had a really, really nice collection. But his wife called me up one day and he said, Jim gave me specific instructions, if anything ever happened to him, that this knife was to go back to you. And as it turned out, it was that my number one slip joint, the copper head with uh mesquite handles on it, if I'm remembering right. So I went over and picked it, it was local, and I went over to pick it up and uh tried to buy it back. Nope, wouldn't take it, wouldn't take it. So anyway, I went ahead and accepted the knife back. Well, to make to make sure that I didn't mess up and and sell it to someone else. I gave it to my son and I said, now this is a family heirloom, and it's up to you to keep it in the family. Do not sell it, don't show it off, put it up, put it in your safe and whatever. So he still has it. Now my first fixed blade that I made, it was numbered number 001, because I was numbering all my knives back in those days, and I messed around and sold that one, and it's still out there. So if anyone has it, if you'll sell it back to me, I'll buy it back and give you money back plus anything else you want. I'll wash your car, wash your deck, sweep your floors, clean out your shop. Uh but I'm still looking for number one fix fixed blade that I ever made. Had some real pretty kind of reddish uh mirror polished blade, uh just a hunting knife with a uh probably a brass guard and brass butt cap, if I'm remembering right. Might have been nickel silver, but it's got number 001 on it. So so anyway, uh that I had to throw that little story in there. But um we were we were I was gonna ask you a question now, I've forgotten what your question was before I got got a sidetrack there.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Yeah, no, we were just talking about the trajectory of your of engraving on your knives. You're talking about uh Lloyd McConnell and his engraving back in Odessa, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Uh well at the time he he wouldn't engrave for anyone else, or at least he'd he was doing his own engraving. But uh I found several guys that that would engrave out there, and Jim Moore, the the fellow that actually taught me how to build my first knife there in Odessa, he had gotten into engraving, so I had him engrave some knives. And Weldon Whitley also at the time, he taught me how to build my first folder. Uh he did some engraving, so I had some of my early knives engraved by both of those guys, and then over the years uh all of my early knives were numbered, and I kept a logbook, which I still have, on who bought the knife, where it was sold, and how much they paid for it. And I did it just a spiral notebook, and I did that till I got up to 1009, one number 1,000. And I thought this this is getting to be too much of a paperwork hassle. So I quit at 1,000, and I regret it now because I've probably got gosh, I don't even know, six maybe six or seven thousand knives out there, maybe more, I don't know, but I quit at a thousand. And uh one reason I a guy called me up here just recently, and he was in the area somewhere, Austin, maybe, or somewhere in that area. He said, uh, I've I've found three of your knives, and they all have a number on me on them. What can you tell me about them? I said, Well, you tell me what the number is, and I can tell you about the knife. So he wrote he texted me and uh sent me his phone number, and so I looked them up in my book and I found out who the first owner was, what the knife was, all the materials, and who who bought it. And turned out those three knives that he had were sold to the same same guy. Now he didn't tell me where he got them, but I sold them all to the same man. I told him the material, blade material, handle material, and how much the guy paid for the initial knife. So he had some history on those knives, and that's when I really, really started regretting not keeping that number continuing on past 1,000, uh because there's a lot of and another instant uh I had a fella call me just in the last few days, sent me a picture of a knife. It's a folder, one of my very recent folders, and he bought it for a really, really great price. And he was asking me about it, and I said, Well, just from the picture, all I can tell you is the basic the handle material, and I said, somewhere on that engraving that gonna tell you there's a number that's gonna tell you who engraved it. Not a number, but a name. And uh I can tell you what model it is, but other than that, I didn't other than that I didn't have a record of the knife, and again, that's one of those times I kind of regret not having that. Uh it was uh it was an automatic, so it was a very recent knife. And uh so anyway, I I can recognize one when I see it, but I don't have all of the details like I wish I would have on one. Um but what I was one one of the thoughts I had a while ago, uh to me right now, um knife making is probably the let me think how how I would even say this. Um if anybody's gonna get into knife making right now, it's a great time because the market is great. You've got all of these great uh tools that'll help you uh advance a lot faster, like the grinders that flip from vertical to horizontal, which is basically two two night uh two machines in one. Uh but it's a great time uh training. I can take five years off of your learning curve curve in one of my four-day classes, doesn't matter what it is, but I can advance you five years in four days, and that's a guarantee. Um I'm not the only one that trains now, there's other instructors around, and I I'm seeing more and more people are getting uh individual training or going to a class training, and uh so I think I think knife making and guys like yourself that are putting this stuff out there for the world to see and hear and maybe get exposed to for the very first time is that's exceptional, you know, and I appreciate what you're doing. I'm not sure how many people look in the eye and tell you that, but I sure will.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

Well, I appreciate that. Um so you were mentioning that uh Jim Moore was uh doing in engraving uh at the time. Uh what what was your next progression? So do did you have knives that were engraved by Jim Moore?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

Uh early on I did. He and Weldon Whitney both because I didn't know anyone else. You know, in West Texas, uh like Jim was the only knife maker in in Fort Stockton. Uh Weldon up in New Mexico, he was the only knife maker. Uh there may have been more, but I didn't know him. So as far as I was concerned, he was the only knife maker in New Mexico. And then when I got to uh down to New Broncos, uh I was the only knife maker around here, and now there's several young guys now around that are due, mostly forged forge uh stuff, you know, uh forged and fire guys. I think there's several of those around, but uh but back in the early days, yeah, Jim was Jim and Weldon were were it, and Lloyd McConnell like that. I met him later on, and uh uh but uh Lloyd still makes them and does his work is it's through the roof. It's outstanding. Now Jim, I think is pretty much retired, and I think Weldon is pretty much retired, but they're still out there in West Texas.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

Yeah, so um and I mean you've had a a long list of curr uh collaboration with engravers. Um I've I've looked through some uh some of the lists of like Jim Small.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Jim, um Jim and I did a lot of work for a long, long time. And then Jim got he lived down in Georgia, I believe. I believe, somewhere way off down there. And he had gosh, I can't remember, he had a a stroke or a heart attack or something very, very serious and pulled through, and Jim had been a uh engraver, but mostly he was engraving guns when I met him. He and I did a lot of work together for a long time until he had his uh uh heart problem. Um I was trying to think who else I worked with early, early on. Um Joe Mason. I met Joe Mason early on. He was still working for a living, and I forgot what Joe did, but it was either road construction or something like that. So he was out of town a lot, but he had a little mobile home, he towed with him, and then when the job was over at day in the day, well, he had his uh a little engraving table set up in his little RV, and he would practice and everything. I I don't know how I met him, but so I started sending him knives to practice on, and they were good enough that I was Putting them on, you know, just bolsters. I was wouldn't send him the knife, I'd just send him the bolsters. If I got it back and it was good enough, I'd put it on a knife, and you know, we'd increase the price on that. And so that's kind of the way Joe, Joe, and I got started. Uh Alice Carter, uh, same way. She uh she was doing some engraving, but what it wasn't knife engraving, it was uh I can't even remember what it was now.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Yeah, she was doing she was doing some type of jewelry work at the time, wasn't it? Wasn't she?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

Yeah, she yes, she was. Something like that. So she that's the way she Alice and I. Uh Del Bass now is used doing a lot of work for me. He's out in uh Amarillo, and he's done a lot of my my most recent work. I was doing another uh doing and I'm still doing a project with her for AKI. Um young lady up in um goodness. Uh can't remember where she's from right now, or I can't I can't remember her name, but so she's got me on her books for a a project for AKI, and Alice has one for AKI, and Joe has one for AKI, so I gotta get busy and get those made pretty quick. But uh oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

Well also uh other b other notable names, uh Bruce Christiansen, Julie Werensky. Let me see here.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

There's a lot of Bruce. Uh Bruce was doing unbelievable work. He did a he and I did a lot of work, but he he passed away. Julie uh was all of my work with her was was collaborations for uh a fellow that actually owns Blade magazine and Blade Show. And I had he and I had met and then uh he knew of Julie and knew of uh um me and several others. So uh we did two projects for him, I think. Julie and I did. I made the knife, she did the engraving, and uh someone else was involved in that, and I can't remember who it was now. Uh but anyway, yeah. Um Julie, she's uh she's a uh superhero in her own right. She's a knife maker that no one would believe. Unbelievable stuff she can do. But she's kind of gotten away from the traditional, I mean just the traditional knife stuff. She does uh uh maybe gun engraving more than anything else. I know her husband is a knife maker. But uh and he's an unbelievable engraver too.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

Yeah, Buster Buster Ourudsky, um, she was married to him first and then she uh she remarried, right? I forget what her what her husband's name is now.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:41

Yeah, I'm for I'm forgetting it too at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

But you've also uh had engravers like Mary and Kelly, right? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:49

Mary and Kelly together uh she yeah, she is she's unbelievably good. Now she's doing a project for me for AKI also. And if anyone doesn't know what AKI is, that's the Art Knife Invitational, which I vote got voted in as a member. Uh I went two years as a guest, invited as a guest, and then the membership involved me in as a member, and that's in Las Vegas in October, and it's 20 top makers in the world belong to that. So I feel like yeah. I can't describe how I feel about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

But it's yeah, well, what what I uh what year did you get inducted into the R Knife Invitational Group?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Well uh two years ago I went as a guest. They invited me back a second time as a guest, and there's only twenty members in that organization. Uh so I went last October as a guest for the second time, and then I got invited back this time in October uh as a member. The the members voted me in. So I'll be going back as a full member in October. And if anyone wants to see high-end knives out there that you are in contact with, that's that's the place to go. It's a one-day show, very short day. It's from three at 10 a.m. I think it's October 28th or 29th, whichever there's Saturday. It goes from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. Uh there'll be 20 knife makers there with we have to have at least three knives on our table. I've got one, so I've got to come up with two more between now and then. And uh some of the work there, if you want to see last year I think the top knife that sold there off of the table was a hundred and twenty thousand dollars, something like that. In that same price rate. So that's the clientele that are there and that are selling now. And I'll gladly take $125,000 or $120,000 for any knife that I sell in case anybody's just standing out their way. But no, it's it's it's just a wonderful place to come and see, and you can go as a guest too. It it uh uh you can yeah, you still have to pay your way in, uh, but you you don't and you don't even have to buy if you go in there as a but uh it's just it's pretty unusual. And they're moving it to a new location too, they're closer to the strip this year, so I think we're all pretty excited about that too.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:07

Yeah. So the um for everybody who doesn't know like just how prestigious the art knife invitational is, uh there's there's always usually a slow rotation of some of the world's greatest knife makers in the art knife invitational. And there's 20 members and they can invite uh uh like guest artists, uh but in order Yes. Yeah, two to a year, right? Um yeah, and and if there is a member that abdicates and moves on, they can fill that spot, but it has to be voted unanimously by all of the other R Knife invitational um people. So that's correct. I mean you yeah, you have to you have to have good rapport with everybody there. And do is there a nomination process by the makers? Like how how does that actually work uh to to fill a seat?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:03

I suspect that it comes from the membership. Like I said, I haven't been involved in that. Uh, but I I'm sure my name got put in the hat by one of the other members, which I appreciate that. Uh but yes, I I think you're absolutely correct on that. It's uh it's it's uh it's it's a the organization's been in existence for a long, long time. Uh it was traditionally out in I'm gonna say Solvain, California in that area. That may not be the exact location, but the fellow that had it finally retired. I think he had it like 20 plus years maybe. He retired, and then I think his maybe either his wife took it over or when it came to Las Vegas, a lady had it, I believe, first. She moved it to Vegas, and then uh it's sold to uh the the current owner, and this is his maybe third or fourth year of having it there in Vegas. This will be my third year to go back. So I don't know a lot of the history on it, but but it's very prestigious, and some of the members that are actually in there are worldwide, you know. It's not just U.S. makers.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:42

Oh yeah. The uh the list of makers is pretty incredible. And uh just for the sake of uh clarification, uh Julia Woransky, um after Buster died and everything, she remarried and Kurt Erickson is uh her husband, so it's Julie Worensky Erickson now.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:02

That that's correct. Yeah, she still uses her maiden name, or I guess you can call it her. But yes, she's and he is an unbelievable artist in him right. Matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you went back far enough that he actually learned from uh Buster, at least engraving when Buster was still alive, Buster Walitsky.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:32

Yeah. Yeah, uh yeah, that's what it looks like uh from his website. And I mean Kurt makes some incredible knives uh uh too. I mean, yeah. They were both uh both phenomenal knife makers. But I'm interested, um, so there was a a brief period of time or at least uh a a few years where you were part of the knife makers guild, right? Uh how many years were you in the guild?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

Uh I was in the guild. I'm actually still in the knife makers guild.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:09

Uh but I don't attend their shows any longer. Uh after after so long, as long as you pay your dues, you can still be a member, but you don't you're not required to attend the shows. I think that's the way it is. But I just pay my dues, so I've been a member for quite a while.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Yeah, that's interesting. Um, yeah, I because uh I don't know if I've uh seen you uh come to any meetings uh recently or anything like that, but I've only uh been in it for the last uh what I guess two years uh starting with probation area, so I haven't like I said, I just pay my dues to keep the membership uh, you know, uh and I think what the guild does is important and uh they've got some good folks in there uh doing a great job.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:15

And uh so I've I always support them any and every way I can. And but as far as being very active, I haven't been just because I'm just me and I can only do so much, and my bucket is pretty full normally.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:39

Yeah. Well, I mean, if you if you think about like your your knife making journey and everything from the the the duration of time that you were active in the guild, uh you were uh rubbing elbows with an an exceptional group of knife makers too.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

It was if I remember right, when I when I first joined, there was like six hundred members in that it was huge because the show was in Florida somewhere, and me being a pretty new knife maker, I I went a couple of years and my table was at the very back and uh obviously I didn't sell a knife. I went back again and uh didn't sell a knife, which was understandable because my knives were rough, rough, rough, rough. Uh but the guild moved that was in somewhere in Florida, and then they started moving it around. They moved it to Las Vegas. I remember that. I went there two years, then they moved it to New Orleans, I think it was, moved it there two years. And it and then after that it went over into the East Coast somewhere, and I I didn't follow it after it went to New Orleans. Uh but I stayed a member, but I wasn't required to attend shows due to my age, I think is what it was. So I just kept my membership up and didn't didn't uh didn't uh attend the shows, and then I think they quit the shows after a while because the membership dropped so low, or I don't remember what the deal was.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

Yeah, I if I remember correctly, uh what is Blade uh Blade Atlanta, uh it was the guild show. Um but there was also um the the show that I I I believe that the rights if and I I can't really remember if I my history is correct, but the rights to the show itself were sold off to Blade magazine um and they started running the Blade Atlanta um show. And then there was some time later where the ABS and Guild started the another show and it was what was considered ICCE. Yes. That was that was run in Kansas City until the rights were um given or sold to Jerry Moan, I believe, and then he ran it for a while and brought it to Texas, and then he eventually sold them off.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

That's that's correct. I I think you're absolutely correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:41

Yeah. Well, it's in yeah, it's interesting. So like the guild, the guild doesn't run shows anymore. Uh they attend them and uh do uh recruiting and whatnot, but it used to be where the guild that was the only knife show uh that you'd go to outside of gun gun shows was you know this guild that was created in the 70s and then got up to you know a very high number. I mean, 600 uh knife makers of the world's best knife makers, arguably, were all in that place for a duration of time. And then as you know, politics and things got in the way and whatnot, the numbers started to dwindle more and they sold off the rights to shows and things like that. So I would say that the guild is more of a um historic and mentor uh uh association uh than it was than it is uh you know, trying to uh manage shows and people coming. But you know, there's still a lot of sway in the guild to get um members to go to shows uh because they want to make sure that uh the show scene still stays alive, and we also have guild representation there. So it's not it's not entirely dead by any means.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:54

Yeah, uh I have a lot of respect for the guild and the ABS. Uh one of the most successful shows were the ones in Kansas City where you had I think there was maybe wrong. It seemed like there was it was split. Fifty tables were each group, maybe been more than that, but it was half and half, whatever it was. And uh I went on the ABS side the first year, and then I went on the Gill side the second year, and it was just it was just across the aisle from you know the tables from the previous year. Uh, but it was uh it was uh now why they dropped that I I don't know. Maybe just due to the two organizations involved, but but I I really enjoyed that show there in Kesha City. And then I I do remember what you brought up there about uh Jerry Mowen getting one and turning it into something and bringing it to Fort Worth and it's all evolved, but you know, everything else everything in the world has evolved too, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

Well, um what's interesting to me, like if I if I look at your your knife making journey and what you've done with engraving and things like that, is that you've you've combined your own art form, right, and making these knives and these patterns, right? Uh to and uh elevating it to a high degree. And then you work with some of the world's best engravers, and then you present those now as really uh fine pieces of art, uh functional art, but um they're still uh art that has a lot of collaboration. You have some of the best Damascus uh from the best the best Damascus makers, uh, some of the best engraving in the world, all all with you um creating the blade itself, the canvas that they uh then collaborate with. Um did you ever think back when you were selling uh $150 Hunter Skinner knives that you would ever be uh producing the kind of work that you are today?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:17

No, and you know, I'm not even sure that it was a goal. It just evolved as I've I've always been uh one that if there was a easier, faster, quicker, cheaper way to do something, then it should be considered uh to replace something that that maybe I'm doing or something I have to to improve, increase uh what I'm doing. Um there's guys that still do they'll rough grind their blade and then they'll spend literally days and days and days hand sanding and hand rubbing it, you know, which there's that's their technique. But um I guess I've always tried to use technology as much as I'm physically smart enough to use it. Um or if I've got room in my shop for a piece of equipment that will help me, and this is one thing I preach to my students is look, your lay your own labor is your most expensive thing that goes into that knife because you got a piece of steel that you might have spent up to a hundred dollars on, you got some handle material you might have spent a hundred dollars on, and you might have uh a few nickel and dime things around uh here, so you've got a couple of hundred dollars in material there, but when you get through you've got a lot of labor involved on that, and if you want to get anything at all from your labor, the first thing you you have to look at is quality. Quality comes first, it doesn't matter if it's a hundred dollar fixed blade knife or a thousand dollar uh folding knife. Fit and finish quality is always, always, always number one. So if you price your own labor Out at today's labor race. I forget what you quoted there a little while ago, $15, $17 or whatever it was. If you price that out and you got 10 hours in that thing, so you got $170, you got $200 invested in it from material and labor, and you sell it from for $200, then you've gone probably three or four hundred dollars in the hole just on lost time. So pricing is hard. Um and I it it's hard to price someone else's work just by looking at it other than fit and finish. And fit and finish is always number one. If you've got perfect fit, good beautiful hand rub finish, it's gonna add value to the knife in addition to the cost of materials and the cost of your cost of your labor. One of my own knives the other day, I saw a picture of it somewhere, and it was just, I don't know where the picture was, probably online or something like that. And I looked at that thing and I scanned, zeroed in on it, and I thought, I can't believe I let that knife get out of here like that. It looks like it got run over on the in the garage or somewhere or something. Looked like it had all these scratches on it. And that could have been just reflections of stuff I was seeing, but but I mean it it almost looked like they had big old scratches on it. Well, my work didn't get out like that, so I thought I hope that's just a reflection or something. But for for makers out there, uh you can you can spend all your extra money and all the money that you can make extra and go broke really, really fast, or you can spend all of the money that you make and all the money you're gonna make and advance if you if you do it right. But if you if you're how do I how do I put this? If you're doing what you were doing yesterday and it's not any better than what you were doing yesterday, then you're you're backing up because it should be better every stinking time. There should be something that you will be able to see on a knife after you get it built, whether it's a fixed blade, folder, automatic, whatever, double blade, three blade. But there also be something on it when you get through that you can look and say, Oh, doggone it. I shouldn't have done that right there. Or I should or I did this and I should have done I should have done it over here too. And but uh I don't ever ever ever ever let a knife get out of my shop if there's something on it that I'm not happy with. But uh pricing is pricing is hard. Uh because what the the price you put on that knife, a lot of that is as a buyer, if I buy something, then I'm buying part of whoever that part or piece or piece of equipment, whatever, to me, that's that's a part of that individual that I'm buying. It's not just a piece of equipment. That's the way it is with those knives. If you buy one, you're buying part of the maker there, and if that maker's putting it putting work out that's not quality, well, that's you're you're getting part of that bad quality. So but pricing is hard. Pricing is hard, but but handmade knives are they're most fun and probably the most profitable thing you can do legally and still make good money.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:03

Yeah, so I know I've been keep keeping you a while, um it's getting close to your time. But I um I'm really interested um because I I think that if uh people have the opportunity to go to your classes, especially with the frequency that you put them on, and also uh uh because of your trajectory in knives and what you've done with your knife making career, um, that being able to invest the money and going to your classes um is is highly valuable. So for anybody, uh, you can go onto Johnny's website and you can see um the kind of classes that he has. You can contact him directly and um and and talk through those and when his scheduling is and what availability has. But um take take the opportunity before Johnny decides that he wants to hang up his hat and retire uh to go in and get a class because there's there's there are a lot of classes out there that pay out dividends. Uh but the specific style uh that Johnny goes after, uh the specific um technical detail and how he uh communicates uh how to make these things, uh everybody I've seen uh that have taken your class um in general produces exceptionally better knives after they go to you. Uh that that's just what I've seen across the board. And I know a lot of knife makers that have taken your classes. Um But is there is if if there are some like pearls of wisdom out of what you see in your in your classes that you want to give to makers uh kind of in preparation for the idea that they might go to your classes, um, what what are those things? Like is there some is there some hit list of things that you think that a maker should pre-qualify for or or focus on in order to take their artistry to the next level?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:01

Well, for my folder, any of my folder classes, the only thing I require is you have to know how to grind your own blade. Now, it doesn't matter what kind of knife you're making, but if you've got a crappy grind on the blade, you're gonna end up with a crappy knife. Because one of my folders, especially one of my what I consider my fine folders, one of my high-end folders, there will be counting nuts, bolts, screws, pivots, blade, bolsters, handle material, all the material, there's eh, there's around 30 different piece parts into that knife. And when you get it all screwed together, if every little bitty bitty bitty thing is not just perfectly accurate and perfect, it's gonna show up in that knife when you screw it together. Uh it's gonna take a long time to build that knife, but when you get through, my classes, they're all the same price. They're four days, and there's no more than two students per class. The only time I've ever had more than two, and it was a special thing, one of my students one time, been quite a while ago, he went through just a plain, what I call my basic class, uh, which is a fixed blade like a hunting knife. Uh and then later on, his son graduated from high school. So he called me, he says, I want to take a class with my son and my grandson, and me. Would you cook would you take a class for three of us? I said, Well, I've never done that, but I said, I will in your case. So that's the only time I've ever had three in a class, and it was because a son, the dad, the son, and the grandson taking the class together. So that was kind of special. But normally it's just no more than two. And to be honest with you, many, many, many times the when there's two in a class, it's more productive for the students because they will kind of feed off one another, and maybe one will think of a question that the other wouldn't have thought of to bring up, well, what do you think about this? Or how did you, you know, so the two per class is very, very, very productive. Uh, again, the only requirement for any of my classes except the basic class, the basic class, you don't have to know anything, you just have to have the tuition, and then I teach you everything else. But for my folder classes, uh, two guys, you take home a you're gonna pay me $2,500, and I promise you you'll take home a $3,000 folder. Now that's it'll be a $1,500 folder if we use plain Jane basic materials, which I provide. But if we're gonna use some from CPS, CPM 154 for the blade, and we're gonna use some 416 for the bolsters, and we're gonna use some micarta for the handles, and you know, just basic material. Most of the guys that'll take that shop though, they'll bring their own high-end material like some ivory for their handle, maybe uh pearl, or they'll have some damascus for their blade and their bolsters. So then they're gonna take home a $2,500 folder, or it maybe even more, because if we have time, we're gonna do file work, we're gonna do jeweling, we're gonna do anodizing, and all of these little tiny things that come into play that add beauty and and uh a value to the knife that uh you're not paying for, but you're getting that to take home in that knife with you if you furnish it a little bit of the high-end material. But you don't have to, otherwise, I furnish everything. Uh two per class, they feed off one another. That's what I was where I was getting to. Uh one will think of something and oh, that's a good idea. I never would have thought of that. And the same thing, and this will go on for four days, and each one will be kind of feeding off the other. So uh it's a great class. Uh, I only do one per month, and uh it's four days, Tuesday through Friday, uh, full eight-hour days. Uh Monday is my day to get the shop cleaned up, straightened up, uh, ready for the class. Otherwise, uh it's my workshop, and this is where I do all my work. Uh, but Friday afternoon, you go home and you'll take a uh knife solder with you. If you don't know anything about knife making, then you want my what I call my beginners or basic knife making class. The hardest thing to learn is how to grind the blade, and I'll teach you how to do that, and I promise you, within those four days, you'll be either sick of it, you want to go home and start selling pop bottles, or you want to uh stick with it and uh learn how to set up your own shop and do this work back in your own shop. But uh I've been doing it for a lot of years, and I've turned out a lot of guys that are doing work. Hate to s I hate to brag, but they're doing work better than I am. If that's bragging, then I'll but anyway, uh uh that's my story, and I you know, I'll I'll answer questions. You can call me on the phone. Like I said, I only do one per week, and that doesn't mean that I do one every week of the month either, because it just depends on my schedule, and if I can fill it in uh because we still I'm still doing like seven or eight shows per year, so uh I have to add my classes in betwixt all those uh show dates that I've got going. This is the way I make my living, you know. It's my real job. I don't have to work very far to get to work, but I still have to go to work every day.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:13

Yeah, no, I mean I I appreciate the investment that you've made uh in addition with your your contributions with your own art form, uh, but also furthering um the uh these particular type of knives that you've you make and being available to talk to with anyone. I've never felt like uh like you were inaccessible or that you were unwilling to answer questions. I think the first time I ever met you was uh at a hundred percenters um build uh up in Plano. It was the first show, first knife show I'd ever been to. And you and uh Tom Overider and a few others were up there, and uh uh being able to see your work and and the encouragement that you gave um everybody to pick them up and to actually feel what a good knife felt like to me was uh a big um a big factor in continuing to uh make knives. Um not only your willingness, but just to be able to look at an example of a fine knife uh has just like uh snowballed into this journey that I'm taking with uh with you know not only trying to produce a good knife, but then also uh trying to capture the um the imagination and the passion of other knife makers through the podcast. So um, you know, you're you're a big inspiration to me, and I know a lot of other people in the in the knife industry as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:37

Well, I appreciate that. Uh you know, like I mentioned, I just I just do my thing. Um but if you if you're trying to learn to make knives on your own, you're in for a long pull, I'll tell you. Because the quality of work out there for everybody, the equipment that we have, the materials we have to work with, uh it really takes a lot off your learning curve. And then if you have some one-on-one instruction, but if you learn to do it wrong, and I I don't know if wrong's the right word. Maybe I should just say if you learn to do it not the best way that's available. Sometimes it's hard to back away from those uh skills and those practices if you've been doing something for a long, long time a certain way. Um I don't know that the way I teach is the very best way out there. It's just my way, and the people that have been successful at it, a couple of them I swear to God, their work just I mean, they like a rocket, they just soared when they took off on their own, and they're still out there making great knives. And uh, you know, I appreciate I appreciate guys like yourself that's spreading the word and and interviewing me and letting me spew my venom out here on everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:22

Well, I really appreciate it. Um I hopefully one of these days I might be able to come down for a week and uh and take one of your classes. I think that would be super cool. Um but in in my life it's been just a matter of uh trying to accommodate knives in a world where I already have a full-time job and a full-time family load and everything like that. I mean, but I I see the incredible value in being able to have some one-on-one uh knowledge transfer. So um if we get to a place here maybe next year um where you're still feeling up to it, I'll uh I'll try to come down for a few days and do one of your fine, fine full classes. Glad to have you. So I mean, thanks thanks for being on the podcast and sharing yourself with us. I I learned a lot more about you uh in this hour, hour and fifty minutes or so than I uh I had by trying to do a bunch of research on you online. So hopefully this uh uh is the case with other listeners and they get to know Johnny Stout. And uh, you know, for everybody listening, take a class from him, ask him questions. Um he is uh a pillar in the knife making community, and you'll be hard pressed uh uh if you don't like spend a little bit of time with him and get to know him too.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:37

Well, thank you so much. And uh anything that I can do for you or for your your clients, uh, like I said, phone calls, uh whatever. Sometimes I can uh somebody's got an issue that uh just been bugging them and eating them up. I can maybe help help them solve it with uh or just sometimes just with a phone call. Uh maybe share a different technique that might be more uh profitable or presentable for them. And uh so yeah, uh I'm here. So appreciate you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:15

Yeah, thank you, sir. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless you.