SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeBeer. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about anything and everything knives. I recently got to sit down uh with Trip Miller for a conversation about knives and life and uh building businesses, and this is uh part two of a two-part series. I hope you enjoy. Yeah. Well, and um, yeah, my my price range is from like maybe about $275. So I'm not talking about fixed blades and pocket knives, but $275 to $900. And it all depends on material. Like I don't charge an incredible amount for uh time, it is really like replacement on materials. So if I'm putting some real nice uh mammoth ivory or something like that on it that costs like three or four hundred dollars. Well, I mean, that's just what I wrap into the cost. Um, but you know, like a stock knife, like even on the slip joints, I I decided uh pretty early on that I was going to try to um offer something more than just some basic new Makartas and things, and I was gonna charge about $350, um, $325 to $350. And I thought that that was fair, but sometimes I wonder if maybe I maybe I should have started lower. Like I uh pricing work out when you spend as much time on it as a a maker does is sometimes a really hard thing to do because you know you want to value your time and everything. And uh somebody reminded me I sold a car one time and I think I sold it for uh under a thousand bucks. And it uh there I had like 30, 40 people hit me up. Um I think it was on Craigslist at one, you know, back in the day. And somebody I said, Oh, I sold this pretty quick, and somebody said, Well, you sold it too cheap then. And I I've always wondered in some ways if the price point um is too high for some people. Because I I don't think that like I I'm not immovable on price uh per each piece, but I also want to make sure that if I'm if I'm making a knife that is the same as the another person's knife that I sold for like $400, I don't know if it's fair to undercut my um my secondary market and sell it for $250 if I really needed the money or whatever. Like I I don't you know, it's stuff like that. Like like what kind of duty do you have as a knife maker to sell at a consistent price um and be immovable on that because maybe one person bought it at what they thought it was valued at versus another because you need the money or because you know you you get self-conscious about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

That's a great topic. Um because I've certainly seen I can't so I'll say right up front, I am not a fixed blade um expert by any means. I have buy and sell them here and there, and I'm actually you catch me at an interesting time because I'm kind of doing my own little due diligence on possibly building a little bit of a fixed blade um collection. And um, you know, I've dabbled in them here and there and bought them here and there, but I really don't know my way around all the makers and all the different price points and necessarily all the different patterns and why what why what is what and so forth. I mean, I'm certainly a knowledgeable enough to be dangerous and uh have been around um in the knife uh hobby for long enough to to know enough stuff, but at a at the level, let's say that I know like my slip joints and some of those makers and some of those patterns and so forth, I I'm not at that level with a fixed blade. So it's hard for me to speak to exactly price points, I would say, knowledge-wise in that area, but I mean just to kind of maybe comment on what you just said. I mean for something that's handmade, I do feel like there's a floor, sort of, right? Like I mean obviously you throw in mammoth ivory or any expensive material you need to pass on the material cost best to the best of your ability, um, including let's say fancier steels if you use uh Damascus or something that you're sourcing otherwise, what have you. But um but there's a difference between something that's handmade in my opinion, and something that you, you know, is a production piece that you can go buy any online retailer or whatever, or walk into you know, the store and purchase and so there is sort of a in my mind a bottom line number and I have a hard time believing that let's say in a fix even a flixblade world, I have a hard time believing that something less than two fifty anyway makes much sense to me. You know, I I don't know that you that doesn't sound too high, I guess is what I'm trying to say to me.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah. Well yeah, and um I I think that what what I've kind of discovered is that there's there's a f there's tiers of prices in general. Um there's the uh free to three hundred, and there that's usually the category that a lot of very new knife makers sit in. Um there's uh like 301 to maybe about 850, and then there's like 851 or or whatever and higher. And what what I notice is like when you get into higher end um or higher cost knives, sometimes um like collectors will will look at your work and say you're under the money, because they want they want pieces that represent a a value system in their collection um across all their knives. So it's like okay, well I I have these ones and like my val my the the value of my collection is like fifty thousand dollars, and I don't collect a knife that I've I've paid under twelve hundred dollars for. And it seems like money and bragging rights or whatever it is not necessary necessarily analogous to quality. Um although like arguably, like anybody who's charging like twelve hundred dollars for a a knife, it needs to be good. But you know, like you can you can find in in the slip joint market um where there it's it's a reasonably reasonably built slip joint or whatever, but because it has I don't know um four hundred dollar uh pair of uh like a blue blue green mammoth ivory, uh you know, it automatically jacks it up. So whereas maybe they were charging 450, well now it's a $900 slip joint. Um and and for a single blade, or maybe like a double blade, like a two-blade trapper or something, um they're charging more because of handle material prices. And like for me, that's a a little bit disingenuous in some ways because the pricing might not necessarily match the work, but because of the material, it kind of slaps the lipstick on the page.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Well, I think the past few years we've seen prices go up, up and up too. You know, I mean, it's kind of interesting that you we talk about in terms of of twelve hundred here, nine hundred there, nine hundred dollar slip joints, and so forth, because uh while a lot of the I will raise my hand and say I'm guilty of kind of falling into the you know higher price point sort of knives in most cases. At the same time, I'm also a big fan of of you know uh uh spending less and having great quality too. And so seeking that out is is something that that is appealing to me as far as like the newer a newer um maker, if you will, uh, or newer to the scene maker, if you will, um there is an appeal in finding those sweet spots as you you described a tier of price points kind of inside of a collection, uh a value tier, if you will. And of course, you know, that's yeah, what I see as value and what someone else sees as value are two different things, right? I mean, it's the old someone what's what they're willing to pay for it, like that type of thing. But if you have somebody that's a little experienced that knows what they're looking at, and you know, you're offering a a product that's definitely got the quality and so forth, and it's out there at you know 400 bucks or something like that. I mean, I would think that's no problem. I do think that what you're saying is correct, what you're getting at, which is there is a tier sort of that pushes you into, as you said, if I go throw this expensive material on it, and or let's say it's got expensive steel, and all of a sudden, because of the materials, you know, material cost alone, I've got, I don't know, pick a number, five, six hundred bucks in it, something along that line. I mean, now you either you have to decide, right? What's my time worth, or do I need to move how bad do I need the money back? Or, you know, what was this exercise for? So you will, I I suspect, I mean, there is a tier there where a newer maker, in my opinion, it's much harder to sell over, you know, eight, nine hundred bucks. Certainly once you approach a thousand dollar number, and that would be true in my opinion, also in slip joints, too, in the slip joint world. I mean, um, you know, I'm um I'm friends with uh Brett Dowell, you know, and he makes a hell of a slip joint at a price point that's on sub a thousand and and is um uh hard to compete with when it comes to quality, and he's been in those price ranges for a long time, you know, and he's been six, seven, eight hundred bucks, six, six, seven fifty, stuff like that for a long, long time. And he makes a great knife. And I can think of multiple other makers that I won't go through a list of names, but you know, I can think of multiple other makers that are out there that are sub those numbers that do a pretty good job too. I don't collect a lot of them because it's not really what I'm looking for in my collection and in my journey, but there are people who do, and everyone's different, and that's the thing about I think this hobby and life in general, you know, it's uh everybody's got a different uh different path, and everybody's got different tastes, and everybody's got different uh things, uh the reasons they collect, their motivations and why. And so, you know, as a maker, you're trying to also figure that out. Who is my who is my customer? What do they want, you know? And and also never, you know, what I just said, who's my competition? I mean, you don't singularly exist in the world of knife makers alone here. You know, you do have people that are out there that are somewhat competing for market share, even though you probably don't think of it like that. I I do as a buyer think of it like that. I think of it like, well, for my money, I'm going here because I, you know, because of various reasons, as opposed to trying to maybe say, go find a new slip joint maker and try to start down that path. Uh, maybe I don't really want to go back and start down that growth path with somebody. I want to go with something established that I know, a known quantity, that kind of thing. I've got various reasons. You know, I've got um I collect I've collected for a long time Enrique Peña's knives, specific, very specific Enrique Pena knives between 2010 and 2015. Slip joints only, traditional, old, old stamp, but um there's not a lot of them around anymore. You know, I find one or two here or there. I know a few people with collections. I've got lines in the water always, so that, you know, when somebody decides they're gonna sell one, I hope I get the call first. A lot of times I do, but that's because I work at that and I spend time cultivating that. So that's one part of my collection that, you know, I'm always want to have free capital, if you will, to buy that if it comes up, that kind of thing. Um, and then, you know, I've got a few other folks that I collect and so forth. And so I'm always trying to make that decision between where I put my money kind of part. And I might not want it to be diluted down over on something new that I'm not sure as sure about. So breaking in through that piece, I think for like as a newer collector, if I was talking about like trying to go out and chase a new collect new maker, that's the hard that's kind of the hard part to get to me, is to get get me to actually spend my hard-earned money there when I've got other things going on in other areas and so forth of my collection.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that um uh the secondary market is like a really comp uh important component of the psychology of buying, right? Um because and I'm reminded, like Tony Bose had a really good value knife that he knew that he could have charged a lot more for on the because of the secondary market, and he still chose to keep his uh prices pretty static, um, except like they're towards the very end, right? And and so like to me, it al it's always interested me uh in in um how a customer uh maintains equity in a knife, right? So you buy you buy it at maybe I don't know, there's lots of of really great uh slip joint makers that you can uh buy a sub thousand dollar, so maybe like eight fifty uh for a nice single blade. And they know that they probably could get fourteen hundred dollars for that thing, but they still charge eight hundred bucks. So instantaneously you buy it, you have four hundred dollars in equity in it approximately, right? And um, and that's uh that to me is something that is interesting because um I I would prefer if when somebody bought a knife from me that they could go out and sell it for as much or more than they paid for it. And that's the kind of market that I really kind of want to cultivate around my knives, is that I it doesn't it doesn't do me any good for you to buy a boat anchor. Um and and as much as like we talk about art and and self-expression and everything, the the thing that I want you to see is a value in the knife, but then also a value in the ability to recoup your uh your expenditures if they ever come to a place where you just don't want it anymore. Like I can't buy back all the knives that I've sold. I can't be the s I can't be the single source of like you know help make helping you out if uh you're you're down on your luck. But I would like to know that the market will support the market.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, I mean the secondary market's a very interesting um animal, if you will, and and I you know I know it pretty well, at least in my little world, in my slice of knives that I kind of pay attention to too. I know the secondary markets for all my all my makers and the people I'm looking for and so forth. I have a pretty good idea um of how that works. And it's uh it is something that comes up in conversation between colleagues and friends in this in this hobby, you know. We'll talk about that, which is um that equity position that you you speak of, which is leave it do you leave the equity in the deal as the maker, or do you try to take all the equity out of the deal and price that table, but now are you priced all the way, all the money, so there's nothing in it. So, you know, do you and that's a conscious decision, obviously, as a maker, you can make that call, right? You can look at it, and I'm sure that there's moments in time where certain makers are like, well, you know, I need to just be charging all the money since it's since it's out there, I should be taking it for myself. And I mean, I wouldn't uh begrudge anybody that right to do that. I think certainly that's your right to do it. What you're getting, I think the what you're talking about though is what's the sweet spot for my business growth model, because there is a curve there, in my opinion. There's a curve there's a curve there where if perceived as a value with a little bit of upside, you might have more potential entries into that. And I'm I would definitely say, I mean, I can say for sure for me, especially with somebody that I was trying to get into newer, that would play a part in my decision as to whether or not I would be willing to just say write a check for six, eight, nine hundred bucks for this on this new XYZ maker, would be if there is some upside in it, then I know I'm safe in that investment that way, as opposed to I'm just gonna take a $500 bath right off the top if I decide if I get this in hand and I don't like it. And therein lies that conundrum of, you know, in our world where unless you do go to a show or have access to this stuff, there is nowhere to go touch this stuff. There's nowhere to feel it, there's nowhere to, you know, which is why, again, like somebody like yourself, it it's pressing the flesh, as I said earlier, you there's really no replacement for it. You can't really do enough shows. You can't really, you know, be in front of enough people and in in face to face. Um you really can't, especially at this particular juncture or with any, let's just say, any newer maker. Um and, you know, even the existing, even the older makers and the ones that have been around, I mean, it's still important to be out there, but you might not have to be out there as much because people will seek you out and they will buy your wares without, you know, because you have a reputation at that point. But I think earlier on in the in the curve of things, I do agree with you that trying to find the trying to find your market, find your customer who who appreciates your work for what it is and sees value in it, and that is then drives that value into the secondary market, and they're out. You know, I mean nobody wants to buy something and say, look at this, I'll you know, I'm gonna take a loss on everything I just bought. Everybody, you know, when you buy it, you really want to be able to say, yeah, I could make an extra two or three hundred bucks on this, or it is worth this. I'm selling it for this because it's worth it, that kind of thing. And then you've got that kind of momentum going for you, I think, in the secondary market like that. And it happens, and I've seen it with a lot of makers. And I've seen a lot of makers too kind of do a little, I've seen them go up and down too. I've done that with um, you know, Ricardo Romano, also great guy. Love him, got a lot of his knives. His market's been kind of it dips and ebbs and flows. Um, Ryuichi, Kabamura, I've got a bunch of his knives. Haven't met him. Um but uh there's a point in time where you could buy his knives on secondary for they were he was always above uh it seemed. He he was priced, you know, thir twelve, thirteen, fourteen hundred bucks per give or take. Um certainly, in my opinion, worth that. But then secondary come along and you can buy them for eight hundred bucks, you know. Not so much today at the moment, but they're in the most recent five, six years that was true. And now he's come back around full circle and his books are pushed back a couple years now, and people kind of you know caught on. He caught on a little more, kind of the secret was out. It was always around though, you know, because Tony Bose, I mean, knew him and said he was he was one of the best knife makers in the world, pretty much. I mean, he said that a long time ago about the guy, and he is, in my opinion. Um slip joints, let's say. But um, you know, but sometimes you're hot and sometimes you're not. And in his particular case, it for a while there, it just wasn't anyone there weren't anyone buying his knives really, not not in secondary at above table price. Now he is um priced up some too, though. So he's kind of taken a little like he's if you go to get a new knife from him, his price points have moved up into that 1800 range on multiblades, stuff like that. So you know, he's pricing himself, in my opinion, about what secondary is on most most of the knives. There's a couple of examples that'll go higher, and most will probably not. It just depends on the patterns and things of this nature, so it depends. Now he's an established guy, he's getting a little older, and he, you know, I'm sure that's reasons why maybe Tony decided to raise his prices at one point was because he knew he could, but he's also probably getting older saying to himself, I need to, you know, have some retirement, etc. So I need to go on and capitalize on this. More power to him, you know. But um, so I wouldn't begrudge anybody that opportunity, but I do agree with you that I think tapping into knowing really it comes down to, in my opinion, knowing your market and knowing your competition and sort of figuring out where you fit in, kind of back to your analogy of the uh companies that built America kind of thing, you know, really having really knowing what you're doing on what is your mission, believing in that, and and finding your the need, the customer. And so if you can align those things, then you know you can grow, you can grow your brand and you will see an upside and you'll see continual, in my opinion, you'll see continual demand on your product. You should, especially if you're producing something really good that's handmade. There are enough buyer buyers out there and there's enough money out there. Um so you know, you have to connect those dots, is what I think is how that happens.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah, yeah, there's there's an entire psychology to um the market. Because, you know, like dealers and collectors like you uh really set the the the price point that um a maker can uh achieve. Because I could I could sell a knife for 350 or 400 bucks, and if you buy that and you'll buy up whatever it is I make at that price point, um then everybody else will will buy it for that if you sell it again. But I I can't dictate that. Not only is it a certain level of um psychological warfare, I think, on customers, but um I don't dictate that at all. So Maker just kind of like puts it out there and maybe can play the system, but it's it's dealers and collectors because an average user of my knife, they get one knife, they pay three hundred and fifty dollars for it, and that's a a single um a single purchase that they're going to make for their lifetime. You know, they want to pass it on to their kids and they don't really they don't really do a bunch of knife dabbling. Um but and that's kind of the deal is like The the after um or s or secondary market is really dictated by dealers and and collectors. And that is kind of where um I think you probably could have a lot of interesting conversations uh in collector circles about ways to artificially inflate the market. Um because you you really ha kind of have that power. Like it's almost outside of the maker's hands entirely. The only benefit that a maker has is being able to charge more for that as an entry, like a table uh the table price, um, after you've decided on how much it's worth as collectors.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

No, I mean, you know, I saw that Jared uh back to Jared Ozer, you know, I saw that with him. I mean, most of his knives when he first started making them were about 700 bucks, give or take. Six, seven, seven fifty. Um, and they stayed there for a number of years. He kept those prices in that range, kind of that sub thousand. And I would say probably for four four years, maybe five, give or take. But then the secondary market, you know, for his stuff was red hot. Like it was just on fire, um online and specifically in the Facebook groups and stuff, and you know, and rightfully so. I mean, his his work is impeccable and his design uh ethos and aesthetic is fantastic. And so, you know, very quickly he went from making the tr just true traditional patterns to his own designs. Um I I liken it to like in the music world, going from being a cover band to writing your own music, right? And so he um once he started doing that and he saw the demand for you know in the secondary, he definitely started creeping up and creeping up and creeping up, but he's done it over a number of years really. I think he's been making knives for about about twelve years, eleven, twelve to thirteen years. And you know, he he's now hitting a point where his his price points are are up there as far as like just a table type knife. I mean, we're talking seventeen, eighteen hundred bucks, two grand, the fancier stuff, maybe even a little higher. Um he lets lotteries and auction auctions actually lets auctions drive some of those because usually the auctions will go higher, right? Typically. So they'll they'll help drag stuff up into stratospheric kind of levels, levels that you know I don't think as a maker he would want to charge necessarily. Again, I use air quotes want to charge. Of course he'd want to, but not to the extent of driving people away, right? Not on a regular price point basis. But he really, I think, is a good example of somebody that did that in a very uh smart um curve curve or timeline over uh really paying attention to the demand, but not necessarily to trying to take all the equity out of every knife and so forth. And he's been able to really sustain, and for the most part, most of his models and so forth have sustained or still go for hire. We've just started now, started to see in the last maybe year or two, I've started to see some of the older stuff a little less interesting to maybe some of the newer guys getting into it and they want the newest stuff and they'll pay for the newest stuff, they won't pay for the older stuff, that kind of stuff. I've seen a little of that, so we've seen some of the heat come off a little bit, but it's all relative. And, you know, most of those knives that we're talking about were are still selling for more than what they sold for at table, that kind of thing, or certainly about what they sold for at table, somewhere in that range. So we're not really seeing, you know, necessarily the secondary market may be taking a little bit of a hit, but as far as like his own personal stock of where his knife sold at and what the equity is in it, he's not really it's not selling for below what he originally would have charged for that knife, that kind of thing, you know. So he's done a really good job. And he's pretty prolific. I mean, he makes at this point, he's got a lot of knives out there, so it's not like there's like a lack of there are knives, but they just stay in demand. And the price points have gotten to the point where, you know, um people pay it, and they're and they're pretty high. You know, we're talking 2,000 bucks pretty much on average for everything. Some things are three, some things are fifteen hundred, yes, but generally speaking, most of his stuff is hovering up there, but certainly between $1,500 and $2,000 of whack. And that's expensive. And it's um a lot it's a lot of money. And it's a lot of money to me, and it's a lot of money to almost all of us, you know, almost everyone out there. And to some people it's ludicrous, I know. Um, but you know what? If you build that market and you've got the reputation and you've got the product to go with it, and you've got the secondary for it there, in my mind, you're just parking money in something that's probably more stable than the stock market is right now.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah, definitely more stable than Bitcoin.

unknown 27:09

Right. Or that.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

You know, so I think of it kind of like that. I mean, that's not why I collect truly. I collect because I like I like knives and I I really appreciate the uh the the work that goes in. The quality part is huge for me, for sure. You know, the execution, that kind of thing. I mean, that part is really my appreciation is there, along with what I mentioned earlier with the camaraderie part and having the the you know the people around me and around the hobby and that kind of thing. But um, but you know, uh the having the idea of having a strong secondary and the idea of having something that's got value later is big and it allows me to justify in some cases the ability to just spend the money.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah. Well, I mean, and I I think that like the the reason why you collect is genuine and heartfelt, right? But it uh collecting is not without risk. And I think all of us, especially when we think about hard-earned money, are into risk mitigation almost as much as we are the uh the joy of things. So I I totally can see that. Like I I don't know I don't know that I would want to uh spend you know five hundred to uh two thousand dollars on a knife if I didn't think that maybe if I really needed to, I could sell it and recoup my costs. But if I but I have to it's like a boat, right? I mean if you buy if you if you finance a boat at forty-five thousand dollars and you can only sell it for you know fifteen or eighteen thousand dollars, uh well, I don't know. Everybody knows that that's basically the boat business, but but but not not knives, you know, and you know, I you know uh knife makers have a finite number of knives that they can make. Um and I'm I'm interested, do you think that a knife maker that uh appears to be more prolific or is more prolific is more desirable to invest in than somebody who makes uh a small batch or or fewer knives per year? Like does it does the quantity or ex like that factor make that much of a difference to you?

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Um I think it makes I will say this. I mean, having the having the ability to if it's something I want, having the ability to get it matters, and so having a little bit of volume can be nice because it means I have a shot. And it means that also means that that's potentially balancing out maybe the supply-demand curve a little bit, right? Because it sort of helps, in my opinion, it kind of helps take the heat off, if you will, maybe if if there's like one of these flying around, and you do, you know, if this person builds one knife a month, 12 a year, and the odds of you getting a hold of one are slim to none, and the value and the the the secondary market's hot for it, I know immediately, you know, the price is that get the entry the price of entry is going to be higher. So from that perspective, it is nice to have somebody that's a little bit more prolific, if you will, uh, you know, who's able to put out a little more product just to get hands and the or get knives in the hands of the the buyers, you know, and the collectors and so forth. So I do think that there's some appeal to that. Um, I'll use I'll use a modern folder guy, um, Michael Raymond as an example. Um, and he's an interesting example, maybe not a great example in some aspects because his work has gotten so expensive and so forth. Um rightfully so, it's beautiful work. But, you know, I I he's one of those, I've owned several of them, and I don't have any currently, which I kind of kick myself for because there's one particular one that I shouldn't have sold, but you know how that goes. Um and so, you know, he's one of these guys that's like it's just a struggle almost to like think about even trying to own one for me because the cop the price point, whether whether I'm willing to put up the money is a question, number one. So, and whether I can afford it, two, there's a legitimate, like, don't know if I can actually afford this really, so I have no business buying it kind of thing. There's that element, and that's kind of where it's gotten to, especially with him, because there is no supply. You know, it's just flat out, there's just no supply. Why? Because he's a perfectionist ten thousand times over and he makes a knife that nobody really can make, other than him and a few other people out there, but there's not many that can make a folder like he makes it to that extent, to the exacting standards. And so are they worth what he sells them for and what he's getting? Yeah, I mean, sure they are. They're worth worth it to some people, and I think that the value is probably there. Um is it a little disappointing to me as a collector sometime that he doesn't make a few more knives? Yeah, a little bit, you know, and that's just my problem, right? I mean, it's nothing other than that. That's my my my problem. I mean, if I um held on to some of the ones I got for better prices, I'd be okay. But at this point in time, I'm a little behind the curve. I think good for him. That's a business choice, you know. He's made that choice. And it's probably a good choice for a guy like him that can do that. I mean, he basically makes art knives, but that aren't art knives exactly, in this sense of the traditional sense of what we think of what an art knife looks like. But his quality level is in that art knife world for sure. It's way up in there. And there's plenty of art knives, you know, that sell for tens of thousands of dollars all the time. Um, you know, and there are people out there that buy those. So, you know, am I bitching and moaning about it a little bit? Yeah, a little bit. But would I, you know, but truthfully, if just to answer your question straightforward, I mean, I would love to see him maybe make a few more knives. You know, I mean, yeah. So I I don't know. I mean, I you're you have you're capped anyway. If you're talking about handmade stuff, you're you have a ceiling anyway. So I know that you're not gonna be able to produce too much unless you start going, uh I don't know in the fixed blade world if there is a mid-tech, but you know, unless you start going more production oriented or something like that, then that's a different conversation, I feel. But as long as we're talking about, you know, pretty much soul authorship, what have you, handmade, um, customs, so forth. I mean, you know, you probably can't make too many, is my guess.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah, I think uh well, based on time, because I have a full-time job and everything, maybe I can make like yeah, it's like 30 a year. Um maybe maybe a few more. Um when I was doing shows like aggressively, and you know, you want to try you want to take like 10, 10, 12 knives to a show, you could do that for three or four shows a year, and it's all new stock rather than you know, if you sell everything out, um that's different. But you know, like uh Stefano uh Nardelli is uh um Italian knife maker. Uh his stuff is insane with his quality, but he is a perfectionist, and he's uh I actually try tried to get him on the show um here to talk to him about stuff, and he's like, My English is not really the greatest, and I'm kind of a loner, so uh he flies helicopters in Italy. But um uh yeah, I think he does like rescue stuff or something like that. But his stuff is immaculate too. But I don't his output is very low and and it's uh yeah, it's that way. Because I you know, I'm that that does interest me. It's like how do you balance all this stuff out as a maker? Man, I don't know. Uh that's one of the reasons why I started this podcast, is because there is knife making and the knife industry is an enigma. And even though like I think that maybe in some ways I got a licked, in other ways I I feel like no, I don't. And every it's every aspect of knives is really like that when you come from the maker uh perspective. And even when like in the small amount of collecting that I've done, um, because I'm also a collector, but not to the same uh extent, um, I I notice all these bakers, I look at them with a collector's eye. Um, you know, like the slip joint cartel is a perfect example of those those guys um kind of collectively their stock is raised um over time and uh their knives are pretty desirable. But Luke uh Swenson was telling me that there's people that come by his table and say, like, uh, I didn't come by because you're you were gonna be sold out. And he's like, I don't know who keeps telling people this, but they need to stop because I I'll have my knives like some knives I'll take home. He was telling me that like there's only one show, I think it was Blade Texas last year, that he sold out everything that he made, but he'll always take knives home, and it's has something to do with this reputation or this um ambiance that um occurs with his uh reputation that people think that he sells out within the first few minutes of his show and it doesn't happen. And so he'll sit there through the entire show with knives on his table, with collectors that probably would buy his stuff if they didn't just assume that he sold out so quickly. So it's kind of weird, like it all all of us kind of have these weird um weird uh idiosyncrasies and things like that that occur in our careers, and I I don't know if there's one magic bullet to really solve for it.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Well, I think you you know you said it earlier, you stick to what you you do well, and you you know, you also stick to something you love, and um I mean beyond just the knife making part, but I mean like you know, finding your whatever it is about your knife making and your designs and what goes into that, your your blood, sweat, tears that goes into that, you know, you are best served generally by, in my opinion, you're best served generally by sticking to, you know, the honesty part of that equation, you know, being on true to being true to thyself about what you're doing, and the rest will follow. And generally that's true. And you know, to talk about your to just comment on your slip joint cart. I know all the slip joint cartel guys, you know, some better than others, but I've known them all. And um, and I know Luke, and you know, and I I talk to him at every show, and I've had actually the same conversation that you just brought up about going home with knives and stuff, and it wasn't um with Luke, it was with a few other people, but we were talking about um knives getting sold at shows necessarily before the show starts, and and uh like the night before or the morning of before the doors open between collectors and stuff. And so I was having this conversation with um a few unnamed makers, and that exact point was made, which is that you know, and it's hard to re hard to argue with effectively, which is if you have a ready buyer that's there, ready, got cash, ready to pay now, you know, do you sell it or do you not sell it, you know, at this point. Maybe that's the day before the show, maybe it's the evening before the show or something like that. You want to have product on the table, yes, but you also don't want to go home with it in your in your case either, because a lot of these guys will tell me, you know, there's been plenty of years that I went to shows, set up, didn't sell anything, packed it all up, and had to go home. And so it's really hard to tell me that if someone's standing there ready to buy something and they got cash in hand, then I'm not gonna I shouldn't take it. And so it was this conversation that, you know, it was mainly a conversation around should you should you sell should you sell your product before the show opens, let's say, or something along that line. Because people do show up, maybe somebody like myself who's looking to collect something to get to get a knife from so-and-so, and then you get there and they are gone. And it's like, you know, I came here first, right when the door opened and you don't have anything on the table. Well, it's all gone, you know. That's a struggle. I mean, it's a good position to be in if you're able to sell all your stuff. So, you know, that it's hard to knock, but there is a fine line there too. I don't know. I mean, you can't make everybody happy, but I think that I do think that if you're in a position to um maybe there's a happy medium there, you know, maybe you're able to sell a few here and keep hold some back and that kind of thing. And I do know Luke, Luke won has won several awards in the past three years, three to four years. His knives have been winning a lot of the show's um awards. Not all of them, but a lot, but several. And you know, well deserved, and he makes a hell of a slip joint, and uh he's a great guy, too, I'll add. And uh very enjoyable, lots of fun, funny, funny guy. And uh, you know, and so I mean I wish him nothing but success. And at the end of the day, I that's why, you know, the reputation I think people think that because he's gotten pretty hot in the past few years, and he's won these awards and so forth. I think most people think that they probably won't he will be sold out, you know, and that kind of thing. And it does happen. Um these shows, I mean, like Blade Show, you know, I mean, there's so many people there, and that's why like if you have a ready buyer, I mean, if you don't sell like now, they go spend their money, you know, four four tables down and then it's gone. And so you don't get them back, usually.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Well, and I like to to Luke's credit, um, I feel like he's always put the uh the the integrity of the show first um over over his profits because uh what you know what he was saying is that um the point of the show is to present a show, and if you're selling off all your stock beforehand, then what does that do to the venue? And uh, you know, Bill Ruppel uh especially has kind of conveyed to all those guys that you know we're here for the um we're here as much for the venue as our customers are for us, and so you do have some responsibility because that's the draw. Like you that's the reason why uh you see kind of uh certain makers get uh preference, as it were, on tables and everything, because they draw they draw crowds in. And if you sell all your stuff out to a dealer, which that's primarily who who does it, is they you know you go to the pit the first night or the the night before the show starts, like on Thursday night, and the the pit has everybody there, and they have the the dealers start like uh taking fat wads of cash out and saying, Hey, I'll buy this knife and that knife. I s like I've already been kind of eyeing on social media, and then you're kind of faced with like you know, I have like I could sell enough to make my table cost and what the the trip. What do I do? And whether that's one knife or a few knives, if you're you know, doing like if you're selling like multi-blades and they're you know eighteen hundred to twenty seven hundred dollars, you sell two, three knives. Well, maybe you only brought seven, so you know, you gotta kind of figure out do you sell them all? Do you sell some of them? And what does that do to your reputation with the the average Joe who wants to collect a knife but then can never it's no different than having books that go out four years, five years.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Hmm. Yeah, no question. And yeah, you're right. And you know, RuPaul uh I've heard him say that same thing, and you know, he's a guy that his knives sell instantly, though, and he always has a table full uh when the door opens. And then about 20 minutes after the door opens, they're all gone, pretty much, you know. Um, so I mean I guess all the makers would strive to have that kind of demand, right? Um, that would be a great thing. And I just think um, you know, I I think you're right about the they having the the idea that they owe at least the opportunity for the venue to you know have product on the table. So when people walk through the door, there is something to actually look at, touch, feel, hold, that kind of thing. Um so I do think that you're right about that, because at some level, you know, they uh they have an obligation back to the back to the um promoter, if you will, uh to have a good show and to have product there. But um it's uh you know, it's it's it's interesting business, I is what I would say. I mean, I think you said that earlier. It's it's kind of interesting. It's um there's a i it it can be big scale, but it's really not that big at the end of the day, and there's only a certain number of people out there that that are really participating in it at any one time, I feel. And, you know, they move their money around and things get hot and things are not and trying to stay in that. I mean, it's um uh from your perspective, I would think it I can see how it would be challenging to make a, you know, make a a certainly a full time living, like if you were to commit to making it a full-time job, right? At the end of the day, I mean could you would you do that? Would you even want to do that? Maybe the answer is no. Maybe you wouldn't want to do that. But um you know it uh there are examples of people that have done it and uh that we mentioned already and I had this conversation with um Enrique Pena um back years ago right around the time that he was really starting to think hard about doing the production stuff. And um because I was motivated to try to get him to make me make me traditionals which he didn't want to make anymore because the dollar per hour equation was not working because he's a perfectionist and nothing would come out of his shop you know that wasn't absolutely right and if it you know he'd throw it away if it weren't perfect. And um you know which I appeals to me of course but at the end of the day I was having the hardest time getting him to he'd say yeah he'd yeah yeah okay and then I'd never hear from you know he wouldn't call me back. And we'd talk and stuff and he started talking to me about the production side of stuff and we really were talking hard about brand it's very resonant to this conversation tonight which is um we were talking about building a brand really is what we were talking about. And you know even he who at that point had a name sure you know but I mean I think back to that era and we're talking about maybe 2014 15 getting into that timeline. And um you know he was well known in the small circle of slip joint collectors and stuff he was well known as having made a really fantastic knife but it was a very specific traditional pocket knife that was at a price point that only a certain number of people would buy. And other than that really quite honestly he didn't really have a he didn't have a a fully established brand. He had a brand in his name yes but there was a concerted effort there to really brand it and turn the corner and provide a you know something to the market that he could sell in quantity and so forth. And I you know I know you're not exactly discussing wanting to go that direction fully but you know there are ways in this in I think in this business if you will there are ways to use those examples let's say um you know the Ozar example or the Ben Balkin Jack Wolf Knives example or or Enrique's example. There's ways to maybe blend different ideas from different places and you know figure out for yourself I think what it is that makes sense for you. And then you you know stick to your you you follow your heart and you follow your mission. You know you go execute on your mission and you're true to yourself. And generally if you do those things you will have success.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah well that's a I think that's a really great perspective. I mean yeah I mean for me I'm uh I have a full-time job so I mean for me it's like uh everything in knives is about um I I guess it's probably about the esoteric side of knives uh more so than selling like for instance like I can't compare my experience to Enrique because the reality is is he go wants to have more product out there for a broader audience to establish himself as like a household name right and and so you have to go like semi-production for that and you can maybe charge three four hundred dollars. Well I can sell a four or I can make a $400 blade and not sell it at all. So I don't have the same problem. I have the problem of selling the knife itself not building a bigger more accessible uh knife so I can make a a nice handmade knife for the price of a semi-production knife or a production knife from Enrique and it's a completely different set of problems that I have. So you know it it helps to navigate that be uh because like by talking to you because really at some point in time when you knives uh to knife making to me is like how much skin in the game do you have? And what does it what does it actually mean uh if you're going to continue with it, you pretty much have to double down or you just get out of it because you don't have that much skin in it. Like if nobody's buying knives for me, then I have to make the decision on well am I going to continue doing it because I love it and it means something to me and I it validates me. Or do I just say you know maybe this like $100,000 in equipment and handle material and time and energy is something that I just kind of like you know sell off and I do something else. Maybe I'll get like a a a a nice old car or something instead. Maybe I'll be able to travel to uh to Europe uh back and forth for the next uh six or seven years with the proceeds and that's kind of where like I'm not in that like a like that mode like my my goal is to like get uh very much deeper into making uh to continue doing the podcast and trying to expose some of these things because I think that a lot of people ask these same questions and and I'm like in like heavily invested and it is because I don't rely on that to feed my family. If it was if it was that then I would have a different conversation with myself entirely. But at least for now um I really just want to make a good knife um and I think I've gotten there and I really just want to be able to sell it so that way it gets in more people's hands to get to really kind of get that feedback. Maybe I should do like a 30 day money back guarantee.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Where do you sell right now?

SPEAKER_00 50:10

I sell mostly online and it shows. So I mean I have a a f uh website um I'll list stuff um I I don't really like I'll say it like like mark something off if it's available um but for the most part if I post pictures up um I don't I I won't sell it on Instagram or Facebook. It'll go directly on the website um that like I'll so I'll I'll market it basically and I'll sell it on the website so that way everybody knows what the price is. Because something that I've really kind of uh distrusted is when somebody puts up something that says available and then they s talk to one person about it being 450 but if there's like nine people that ask for it they jack the price up behind the scenes because they you know they can't because it demands higher right and I'm just like my price is my price it's uh it's not it's not a lot but you you get that and if you if it sells and you want another example of it I'll make it like usually I don't have materials so finite that I can't make another one um but that's kind of where I stand so I don't know maybe wishy washy I don't know I I kind of no I I don't think so um I think you do need to say where your what's your website it's uh lsknifeco uh dot com.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

LS knifeco okay well you know maybe we just need to um put the put the knives in the hands of some people who are out there posting them some and get a little bit of grassroots marketing going for you. Maybe that's what we need to do.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Yeah well um funny enough um I'm I'm really big into if knives don't sell um that I try to uh donate some for like good cause raffles and um I'm especially big there's um um uh it's Operation Triage in South Texas that does um um home renovations and building and stuff for veterans and um so like especially on my tactical stuff or pretty much anything if I see a knife that I'm like uh I think they'd probably do do pretty well at auction I'll send it down to uh Dan uh down there and I think one of my Patriot Warrior tactical knives or like tactical fighters uh um auctioned off for like almost three thousand dollars down there uh and and that really means something to me so it's like okay like it cost me maybe $150 $200 to make maybe more uh maybe I I took a uh I I ate it on uh table cost but I'll just donate it. Well my wife and I were at up at uh do you know who Steve uh Steven Ronella is?

SPEAKER_01 52:36

No.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Um the uh he operates this um um it was on the uh the outdoor channel but it's a meat eater it's a uh hunting yeah hunting uh show and my wife and I were up there um for a book signing that one one of my other hunting buddies was uh he's a my one of my best friends but we we do a lot of hunting and fishing together in the past and um uh he told me about it we went up there and I said hey like I have one of these knives that was a Tony Bose uh desk knife fixed plate that I had made uh with some real nice uh butterscotch micarta and I was like I was like dude like uh I mean what do I care I'll I'm gonna give it to him and just like have like have some hands on some of my knives from somebody who probably you know uses a lot of knives and so I gave it to him and he was like taken aback a little bit at the the gift but I'm like I said you know it really means a lot to me that uh from a conservation and um awareness about hunting and the ethics and and whatnot of it it means a lot to my family that you do this. Um so like here's this knife. And so for me like I I'm never really opposed to giving knives away or letting people um like handle them or whatever. And honestly a money back guarantee is not necessarily a bad idea. I don't actually see that in knives today a whole lot unless they're production knives and they're from a you know reputable deal or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Yeah it's an interesting thought I guess you know I mean I guess you could look at it like standing behind your product kind of thing I I suppose that's tough I supp I mean certainly if you were doing it for a living it would be harder to do you know it's easier to do if it's a side gig that kind of thing I suppose but um I g I would have to ask myself is it necessary or does it does it make the difference then for somebody how how much of a difference does that make for someone then buying like entering into the purchase transaction as opposed to not by offering that and I guess that's the question you have to ask yourself if it makes a big enough difference or not. And I don't know. I tend to think it might not make as huge a difference. I mean maybe it would with some folks but um I I kind of feel my gut would be it's not absolutely necessary. Certainly a stand you know a stand behind the work piece and all that but you know I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

I mean you could try it I suppose yeah yeah I don't know I throw around ideas like to see if they if they make sense and then I think you know I d I don't like that idea. It's mostly because like my knives already come with a lifetime guarantee. Like I mean the life being my life right but like don't ex don't send something to my daughter and expect her to sharpen it when I'm dead but um but yeah they come with a lifetime and satisfaction guarantee against like flaws. So I mean if something is is wrong then obviously I want it fixed. And if you don't like it then I want to know probably sooner than later too because it's a lot easier for me to give you your money back than spend it.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

I think a return you know a return policy maybe 30 days is a little bit much but I think a I think certainly a return policy type of thing is certainly fine. Um you don't see that so much. There's some makers that would certainly do that if you bought from them and just got it and said man you know I really it's not resonating with me. That kind of thing. There's some most I think are of the opinion that once it's sold unless it's defective or it needs to be fixed, which they'll fix it's sold. And then it's your res you know, you own it and then you go deal with it. So that could set you apart I guess a little bit like that I suppose but I don't know that you need to be so aggressive as to say thirty days. That's a lot I think um a week maybe something like that. You know one week kind of a buyer's remorse cooling off period whatever you want to call it you know a window of time within which to return it if you're not satisfied. I mean that yeah it's a nice gesture I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Well I think the like for for guys like you who are like I I think financially responsible and what I mean by that is that I I don't think that you would uh make a purchase on something that you instantaneously regret it and be like okay I need to return this because I'm you know I spent too much money. But that's in the industry today like that's why we can't have nice things because I can't tell you how many people like when I had to get out of getting doing books because um people would be on the books and uh maybe maybe I wouldn't have like more than you know 20 30 people that are interested in in work and say hey yeah like I want the next thing that you come out with. And then uh you get to them on the list and everything and they're like nope sorry something came up. Like I've had that happen probably 30 or more times. And that's a rough one because if you make a knife that's something that is you know marketable to that person at that time and then they like you have people just constantly bouncing out of it. It makes it difficult because you know you have like these knives that still linger around for a while because you know somebody got a little bit too specific and then you know uh I also feel that there's a responsibility when you're keeping books to uh make sure that you're fulfilling those orders and I also wanted to do shows and it's like how do you like you have your books that you need to keep because those are customers that have you've already committed to buying and then you have shows in addition with that. So it's kind of like I don't know. How you navigate all that like I have nine million questions and zero answers sometimes. And so I'm I'm the kind of like wait it out, think about it and ask smart people like you. And get you on the podcast and talk to you for two hours and try to figure out like is something about that makes sense. But um I you know I I appreciate you I appreciate you and your and your the responsibility that you carry in collecting knives and the maturity and integrity that you um you hold when you do that. I feel like um I I've looked at a uh a breadth of your collection that you've expressed online um since you were on these Facebook groups and every single one of those knife makers I I respect their work incredibly and I I know them and they're good people and that is uh speaks volumes about the kind of of people that you're looking for. Um in addition to like the materials and things like that that I think you have an affinity towards it really shows um if you're collecting the person and the relationship it really speaks a lot about the kind of um maker that you value. So um you know I I I thank you for everything that you do for us.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

Oh well thanks and I appreciate it. I'm humbled and uh grateful that you had asked me to be on here and I'm sorry I took up so much of your time. I hope that uh you have people that'll listen for two hours. But um it's been uh enjoyable speaking with you and I certainly would um be interested in I'll have to take a look at your a little harder at your what you're making and I might be interested in commissioning something from you as well.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

So oh sure. Well I mean at the very least if you want me to send you some stuff and you take a look and critique it I'm always open for that. I mean it's no different than what I did with the guild or anything. You know if they there's people that uh I respect their their opinion and insight and I um it's always something that I want to get better at. Um because I don't I don't ever think that in this in this industry that we all have it dialed in um a hundred percent. Uh there's some nafemakers that are incredi uh incredibly good that I'm just like I don't know how you even make this stuff. But um for the for the rest of us I think that there's there's always areas of improvement. So you know anytime you just let me know. And if um if you want to get into um collecting fixed blades since I've been in it uh a long time and also I'd a lot of uh makers for like in in the the secondary market and whatnot I'd be more than happy to uh kind of point you in some different directions because there's there's quite a few names that I know of that are just make incredible knives that are also uh pretty highly desirable in the secondary market. So okay cool I will hit you up all right well you have a good night and thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

Thanks Aaron it's nice talking to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

Yeah bye thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless you