SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeBeer. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about anything and everything knives. I recently got the opportunity to sit down and talk to uh Trip Miller, a knife collector and investor in a bunch of uh fine blades. And this is the uh conversation that we had. Uh this is uh part one of two-part series, and I hope you guys enjoy it. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I am joined by knife collector and knife enthusiast extraordinaire, Trip Miller. Um, how are you doing, Trip?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

I'm good, Aaron. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Doing great. Um, I wanted to have you on because uh probably for the the time that I've been in pocket knives, I I've been on some of these Facebook groups, especially. And I've noticed that you have a penchant for um sharing uh some of your wonderful collection with people and talking through things and whatnot, and also um probably dictating some of the price of the market and the way that you sell your knives uh and collections here and there. And I wanted to get you on and just like pick your brain and talk to you about like this um like your aesthetic and uh how how you collect knives and whatnot, and just uh you know hope that that's useful for some of our maker listeners that you know could use that information as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah, great, excellent. I uh wanted to just say thank you very much for thinking of me and um asking me to be on your podcast. So I'm very humbled and grateful that you would do that. So thank you very much for that, number one. Um yeah, so you know, Facebook groups, blade forums comes to mind, um older USN uh uh platform I was on there too. But um, as far as um where I spend, I guess, most of my time these days is probably multiple Facebook groups, various knife makers, various knife groups, um, slip joints, not slip joints. I um I I kind of go into both sides. I do some tactical modern stuff, but I think at my near and dear to my heart are the slip joints. So, you know, I spend a lot of time there as well. But I appreciate what you have to say. I um I do spend a lot of time there, probably too much, one could argue, but um I do enjoy it and I do appreciate, you know, the opportunity to share what I have. I um I think that a part of my collection journey has been um sometimes wishing that there was more being shared out there. So when I got into a position to share what I collect and and you know what I find, which is a big part of my story, which we can talk about. But um, you know, as I find things and discover new new makers and as I find knives I've been looking for for, you know, two years, five years, you name it, you know, it's uh whenever that happens, I enjoy the uh the um exercise of sharing those things with people. And I think a lot of it become is because it's not always out there, you know, you don't always get to see it. And so I felt like I I sort of have an obligation a little bit to do that. That's just that's just me.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

So yeah, and I and I think that uh that resounds with me because uh uh we're kind of birds of a feather. Uh because I in knife making there was like a few people that would do um knife making videos and talk about things on forums like blade forums and stuff, and you know, as more makers popped on Instagram and Facebook and everything, I felt like there the number of makers that really got to the the heart of like the technique on how to do certain operations, I d I didn't really see that as much. And um I also felt that there was a little bit of a veil um with knife making, like you don't really see the politics behind it, you don't see like um the business side of it as much. And so I really have tried hard to uh document as much as I can about things as I learn them or have them conveyed to me so that way everybody has uh uh the ability at least to look at that and add that to their own work. So I mean I I very much agree that if we have the internet and the ability for everything to be accessible, it seems almost like a fiduciary duty that we would uh we would share that rather than keep it secretive and to ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not a I think you're in tech, you had said earlier, uh, before the call here, um you know, I don't consider myself too tech savvy, so to speak, and I certainly don't spend a lot of time um um doing videos or doing things of that nature, although I could, I suppose. But at the end of the day, um, you know, I I found once I learned how to post things and once I learned how to kind of taught myself how to take some photos and still working on that, you know, I don't consider myself a very good photographer, but I've learned a little bit, and so I've taken some time to learn some of these things and learn how to make some posts, learn how to, I I hope, try to um put up informative posts and sale posts and uh collection posts, and I try to do on occasion, you know, I'll try to do a sort of a state of the collection thing, or every used to at Christmas time I would do a a video of like my my pinna collection and stuff like that. So I think what you said is true, which is that you know, we have this medium of internet and social media and so forth, and uh quite frankly our community is a very small community on the big scale of things. And um so I think just that there's also that aspect of reaching out and touching people and you know it's uh it's another for me, it's another version of of um relationship building, basically. I mean, for lack of a better way to put it. But to your point, you know, it's nice to be able to see some of these things, and I think um I can appreciate what you said about like being a maker and and these things just appear, but then no one really told you how they got there or how they did this nuance or why this is this way or and that kind of information. I mean, I was I've always been sort of a a a a people person, people pleaser, um, you know, and I do feel kind of that it's a little bit of my obligation, uh, or I I feel something of a obligation to share some of these things. And um, and I enjoy it. You know, I mean, I think that uh it goes without saying, but I do. I enjoy it, and I really enjoy the um I enjoy the camaraderie and I enjoy the relationship side of it, and that's a big piece of it. And um, you know, I think not to jump ahead on your questions, but just to put it out there, you know, I'll say I'll say up front that um, you know, I know you had Dave Nimerson on the call uh on a uh podcast a few weeks back, and I will say, uh I'll say right now that uh he did a fantastic job. So and Dave I've known for quite a few years, and we've we've met collecting, you know, and so goes the story. We met online, I guess, and he happens to live up in New Hampshire, and he lives pretty close to my house, and he's been down to my house before, and I I try to have a get together every year and do a barbecue here, and I have people, I invite people to come, and we do I call it Boston Blade. It's the Boston Blade show. I live on the South Shore of Boston, and so that's our and or it's or it's blade and barbecue, one of the two. Boston Blade, blade, blade and bar barbecue and blades. I haven't haven't figured it out yet, but Dave does come down on occasion, and so I've met Dave and he comes down and we're friends, and um, you know, I've driven up to buy knives from Dave and so on and so forth. He's a great guy, and so I just wanted to say that out loud that I thought that the podcast you did with him was excellent, and um, you know, I would be um thrilled if this this particular one with me could even come close to his because I thought he had some great things to say. But um that camaraderie, uh the relationship part, the chase chase chasing the chase part is for me is certainly I don't know, 50-50, you know, the ownership part's great and so forth, but I think for me a lot of times it's the the art of the the art of the deal, um way the the patient being patient and having things come and finding and making the connections and um making the it's really a relationship thing for me, you know, and I think some of the things you and I have talked about previous to this call, um, a little bit about, you know, maybe what motivates you or how do you, you know, how do you um if you're a new maker, how how do you get your knife sold to people like myself or so on and so forth? And a big piece of that, I think, not always, but a big piece of that starts with the relationship part, you know, and so many people in this um in our world that I've uh looked up to or um really respect their opinions and so forth have said to me through the years, you know, it's really it's a lot about the maker and that relationship and who they are, and I've found that to be very true, which is that, you know, the makers that I have connections with, the ones that I respect, um, the ones that, you know, for the long are in it for the long haul, and that I end up having a connection with, something of that nature, that I'll I'll I'll stay along many a times, you know, I'll stay collecting or interested and so forth. And then the reverse being that if you don't have that connection or someone's really not in it, or unfortunately on occasion you might run into somebody you just, you know, you don't feel you have the have a synergy with, let's say, um, you know, a lot of times it's easier to let that go. It's not so um not as interested in the knife, you know. Uh it's more of a relationship thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

So yeah, I mean I I agree. Uh I think that it's difficult with knife makers because uh artists in general are pre-madonnas, uh in some way, shape, or form. And it's like sometimes very abrasive uh um personalities. It's like you make a really great work, but I don't know if I could stand be in a uh in a tent with you camping for you know three or four days. And um that's not to disparage any knife makers, but sometimes um sometimes the I guess the outpouring of artistry it's not necessary necessarily analogous to how personable that person is. You know, sometimes they can be real great artists and real big jerks too.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yeah, for sure. I'm sure there's ego out there, and I think probably I kind of naturally stay away from it a little bit, or if I see that I can oh, you know, they maybe I'm not as into it. It's not to say that, you know, there's not a place for that. Um, but I'm definitely the people that I tend to gravitate towards, at least from having met them or corresponded with them and so forth, have typically been very humble and very gracious and very uh pleased that you know they have the opportunity to do what's something they love, and I that resonates with me. I mean, for me personally, and I think that um, you know, I I respect that and that's something that for me is important. And so I just think that a lot of times when it comes to my collecting in certain cases with certain makers that I've had opportunity to meet or um have a relationship with and so forth, I mean I will pursue or try to pursue or at least consider pursuing, you know, their work and investing some of my time and money and energy and so forth into into them because of who they are. And I just think it makes a big difference. And so um, you know, I think earlier on when you're kind of getting into collecting and so forth, maybe you're not seeing it that way right uh initially because you haven't had the exposure, haven't had the experience, hadn't had the opportunity. But I think long haul, when you start to be sort of talking about being in it for a while, that stuff starts to be true to me. Uh maybe it's not true for everybody. I can only speak for myself, but for me that's a big piece of the collecting part, and certainly the relationship part. I really enjoy the relationship part of the buying and the selling and getting to know, you know, know the know the fellas and the gals. There's a couple gals out there, but definitely the fellas and getting to know them and having those relationships. And I mean that's a big piece of it for me too. So yeah, I like I like knives and I like owning them and I like collecting them and so forth. But at the end of the day, they are just knives, and you know, um, I I consider myself a caretaker. That's pretty much how I think of it. Um, I'm a caretaker, and eventually these things pass on, and I try to pass those things on too, you know. I sell some stuff, um, expensive stuff, high, and I sell some stuff for deals and so forth. It depends, you know. Um, but I do try to share the wealth, and there's many a time so I've taken stuff that I've thought, well, I really don't want to sell it, but you know what? Aaron would love this, so I'm gonna just sell it to him so he can enjoy it too. And I do that too. I try to share that wealth part too. So it's an it's an evolving thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah. I wish I would have been uh your friend a few years ago when you were selling that Don Hanson fixed blade for super cheap. I would have had the money then. The hunter. Yeah. Uh yeah, yeah. I I I love Don and his uh his work is amazing too. And uh so I actually don't have anything in my my personal collection of his.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

So Don's a great guy. Um, you know, he I think I told you earlier, I'm originally from Little Rock. I'm from Arkansas, so even though I'm up here in the Boston in the in the battle northeast, I'm originally a southern I'm a southerner, and um I spent about a third of my life down south, grew up in Little Rock and so forth. And um then I spent about a third of my life out in Colorado. I went to University of Colorado and I um lived out in Colorado for about 14 years, and then my wife and so forth is from up here in the northeast, and so we've been up in this area. I've lived in various places up here, but mainly Massachusetts for about 16, 17 years. So but I uh it's funny how many makers and that I tend to buy buy and gravitate towards and talk to are from Texas or Missouri, like Don or down in the south, back down south, um, like you talking to yourself. I thought, you know, it resonates with me very much that um just it's funny how that is, how roads lead back down there. But Don's a great guy. I've known Don for a while. Um I don't actively actually try to collect a lot of Don's knives. His knives are hard to get, number one. I've owned several of them, um, and I've passed on several of them to friends and people that really wanted them, um, that kind of thing. But uh he uh, you know, he's a he's a legend, he's a living legend kind of knife guy for sure, you know. It's amazing. I was um the other day talking to somebody about I was putting together a fixed blade order, if you will, and I was talking to somebody else about their opinion on some things as you do, and um we were talking about W-2 steel, you know, and I was getting into this conversation about what it what's up with Don, and then I I got educated on that he, I guess, bought up like all the W-2 known demand basically at some point, and so he is sitting on a very large cache of W-2 steel. And so they're in life, I didn't know that bit of that tidbit of history. I just knew that you know he always had it. And so all these guys, I guess, source it from Don, I suppose. So I don't think that's a secret, but I think that's a known quantity maybe out there for you know the maker crowd, but I didn't actually make that connection until just the other day. But um, he makes great knife, uh, slip joints or otherwise, fixed blades, fixed blades as well. Um those steam the one that you were talking about was a steam mill hunter, actually, which was uh the collaboration knife he makes with his um, I guess his son and his is it his brother, maybe? Um I don't know. It's a three of them.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah, at least yeah, at least his son. I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah, I think so. But um those I've had a few of them. They're really, really nice, and they are sharp. I mean they're sharp. They're like look at look at them wrong and they cut you, you know, type of sharp. He uh he's great.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah. Um there's something that you were saying that I uh resonated with, and I totally forgot it because uh you're enigm enigmatic. I just could listen to you talk about things. Uh but um one thing uh that interests me about uh the W-2 conversation is that if um if Don or anybody didn't want to get it out uh into the you know the world that he bought up a bunch, uh Laren Thomas actually published it in his book that that was one of the ways that Laren had our our uh Don had gotten used to to making W-2 blades and everything. So it's it's in publish it uh published work now with his uh with Laren Thomas's recent book. So uh no no real secret, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

No, I figured it wasn't. You know, the way the conversation went, I I took, I took from the conversation that it was, you know, a known thing, but I was just like, oh, aha, I had this aha moment because I've got I've been buying like David Brunier, some of his knives, and he's a big Don Hansen fan, and he'll he'll have some, you know, um W-2, he'll have some knives with Hamones and W-2, as well as his own Ford, his own Damascus and so forth. Um, but then I was also talking to somebody about a Michael Birch knife and uh that I had, and it had a Hamone, W also W-2, all Don Hansen, far as I know. So he uh yeah, he's pretty prolific. But he's a he's a great, you know, he's a wonderful maker. I mean he builds a hell of a slip joint, he builds a hell of a fixed blade knife. Um he's got some he's got his scary tack, his tactical that's really great too. Um, and then you know, he's got some art knife stuff out there too. If you look around, you know, there's some pretty fancy art stuff that's out there that's not quite my cup of tea, but I appreciate it for what it is, and I really enjoy it. So he's just a really he's a good old boy kind of guy. I chat with I chat with Don quite a bit, actually.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, and uh I I I I kind of want to uh uh backtrack uh just a little bit and talk uh a little bit about you and your uh maybe like your your career and everything, because I know I know you mentioned that you live in uh Boston area, uh but do you want to uh talk a little bit about like what what you do for a living, primarily kind of like hobbies and things that maybe outside of knives, and then uh what got you into knives and knife collecting? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Um yeah, so I as I mentioned I was born and raised in um Arkansas. So I grew up, you know, part of this I'll preface with I grew up hunting and fishing and um a lot of uh be outdoors in the South. As many of you know, I'm I'll I'll I'll throw out there that I'm fifty, I'll be fifty-four this summer. So I'm uh uh you know, was grew up in the 70s pretty much, back when we were foot loose, fancy fancy-free and out, you know, able to take our guns and walk the walk the railroad tracks just outside of town and stuff like that, and it wasn't a big deal, and no one ever thought anything about it, right? Um and so obviously we always had knives and so forth, so I'll come back to that, but um that's kind of where my real knife collecting began was when I was a a kid, and I don't even remember how old, to be honest with you. But um, but I grew up down there down south. Uh I went all the way through high school in Little Rock, and then I went out to Colorado, as I mentioned, then I came um, I was back and forth. I've lived around actually. I finished college in England, to be honest with you, and then I came back, went back to Colorado, I've lived up in New Hampshire, I've lived in Connecticut, I lived in Massachusetts, so forth. Um between kind of college and and a small stint of uh living up in Vale and being a ski bomb for a while. Um, I was actually in the motorcycle business, as I mentioned to you, for many years. I was a major motorcycle rider and racer, and I used to instruct road racing and was fast and furious, you know, lived a high speed and uh fast life, fast lifestyle. And then um my daughter came along, we were out in Colorado, my wife is from here, she got to be about three, and we didn't have any family out in Colorado, and it kind of was one of those conversations about um, you know, do we want the kid, kid, kids to grow up around family like we had when we grew up, or do we want to be out here where nobody, you know, we don't have any family. So we made the decision to move back up here to the Northeast. Um, and that was in 2006. My wife's family's from up here, and um fast forward and I got into the mortgage business um in 2006. The uh uh mortgage crisis happened and uh two years later and everything imploded. Um but it is what it is, and I stuck to my guns and I stayed with it, and I put my head down and I went out and I just sold and originated loans and fast forward, and I've been managing a team now up here in the Boston area for about five years. Um I always had management in my background at some level, but I went and sold loans for years. So I'm actually I've always been in sales. So I guess you know, to kind of connect that your question and kind of to segue a little bit, what I would say is I I've always been I was always in I was at JC Penney's, I was at Steinmark stores, I was selling motorcycles, I was selling mortgages, I've always been customer facing, and I've always so I've always been at the forefront of you know the uh ringing the register or opening the store or closing the store or taking care of the customer, that kind of thing. So I have a big customer service background. That's really my background sales, customer service, that kind of thing. So I'm a I'm a seller, really. I'm a sales guy, if for lack of a better way to put it. And you know, so I still can uh I still do mortgages, that's what I do. Um I started with the knives, you know, when I was a kid, like I said, I mean I started out in the woods in Arkansas and stuff. I mean, we always were, you know, always needed a pocket knife of some sort. We always had knives. We had deer, you know, fixed blades, deer hoof fixed blades and uh sacks, you know, Swiss Army knives, you know, the little saw blade on the Swiss Army knife. We used to cut down trees with the saw blade on the Swiss Army knife, you know, that kind of thing. Um I I'd get Swiss Army knives for Christmas. Uh, you know, graduated to like a buck knife and a little 110 and the the fixed blade bucks, you know, with a sheath and all this stuff. So I always we were we would go mow lawns and I'd go to Kmart and buy a knife, you know. That was my summer sort of my my my gift to myself was uh to go purchase a knife. So I started doing that when I was young, and I still have some of those knives. Some have been lost and some have been sold and so forth, but I still have this small set of knives that I've had in a little lockbox that I've had since I was a kid, and I, you know, have had those all throughout my life. And um I didn't get really back interested in um going down this collection road, let's call it. I didn't get back interested really in doing that until about 12 years ago, somewhere in there. And um maybe maybe 10, 10 to 10, 11, 12, something like that. I started having some um actually I started out doing some custom flashlight stuff, actually, and and was sort of act what kind of got me into this discovering that's this whole EDC world. Um, you know, which I go ahead. It was a gateway drug, ironically, you know. I don't know how that exactly happened. I was I became intrigued that they existed, like the the titanium flash, these this expensive flashlights, but I was always seems like I was always searching for some sort of flashlight that was better than just the average off-the-shelf type of thing. And um so um that was kind of a gateway drug, yeah. And then it transitioned over, and I I'd always had this underlying current of wanting to um collect knives and so forth, but I didn't really know how to start. I didn't really have um anyone immediately around me that actually was heavily into collecting knives or anything of that nature. Um, and you know, just to um put it out there, I I actually um I got sober uh about 10 years ago. It'll be 10 years ago this fall, and when that happened, um that was really a turning point for me um for having more time, having more money, um having more energy. I was uh I was up later at night, I was uh surfing the internet, whatever. But I was just um I had to refocus and go through the things that one might do when you um try to get sober and and so forth. And that was just a major, obviously a major um event for me personally. And so that really kind of kick-started things for me when it when that happened. I spent a lot of time just diving into sort of the knife collection and and trying to expand that and so forth. And I honestly I don't even think, Aaron, that I went into it thinking I was going to start collecting, so to speak. I think I went into it thinking I'm gonna check this stuff out is kind of where I really actually think I've sort of started. Was like, oh, I like that. Let me try that. And so, you know, I combined that with sort of the sales thing and and you know, early on wasn't sure like a you know, the old Chris Reeve knife was expensive, right? Like a I kind of had a moment where I was like, oh my gosh, not sure I can spend $400 on a on a knife, you know, that's a lot of money type of thing. And I went through that whole, like I think a lot of collectors probably do, or or future collectors do. You know, you have that um moment of that aha moment where it's like this is really expensive, and I don't know if I mean that's a lot of money, represents a lot of a lot of money and a lot of time, whatever, and and obviously everybody's budgets are different, and people come from different, you know, socioeconomic backgrounds, I get that. But still, uh even even then um you may have the month disposable income, but if you're not really bought if you don't know it, it it's a lot of money, right? It's like gosh, 400 bucks, I could be doing a lot of things with that. And so I kind of just started out that way, you know, and then it was uh buy this, sell that, to buy that, to buy this, to sell this, to buy that. So I, you know, keep this, don't keep this, keep it for a while, sell it later. I did a lot of that. I still do some of that, you know. I that carries forward, but I do it on a much bigger scale at this point.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah. Well, I mean, congratulations on sobriety. I uh it's interesting to me, I guess, in some ways, because um, and I I hope you don't mind if I kind of make this observation, but um I when you go from um I guess some levels of addiction or whatever, um, you can find uh supplements to that sometimes by collecting or CrossFit or fitness or something that's like a a still fulfills like that thing that your mind is looking for, but it's not the like self-destructive or abusive a component of it as much.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

It's a hundred percent spot on. There usually if you have sort of those tendencies, um then I think you look for replacements to some extent. It can be fe food, it can be lots of things, but you know, um it could be collecting, could be nice. So yes, there is some of that, I think. Um I think for me um there was also this sort of opportunity to um it represented a little bit of this opportunity to like go do something I've always wanted to do but never did, you know. It's like, okay, now I've got this more more clear-headed, more free time, more disposable income, truthfully. Yeah, absolutely. You know, things of that nature, kind of a redirection of my energies, and it's just something I put my energy into. And like I said earlier, I'll I'll say it again, the relationship thing is kind of what makes you stay around, you know, that that part. If it was just knives alone, I'm not sure I'd still be here, but uh but with the relationships, I'm here because I'm I'm bought in and I I've kind of that's they're my people at this point, you know, it's my crowd that kind of replaced maybe the the people at the bar or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. Um I've just found a lot of people around the knife community that I really enjoy spending time with and commiserating with, and some of them I've met, and some of them I have not met, and some of them we've all only met online, you know, that kind of thing. But um it's uh it's been a good journey, and that's kind of I think that's where your question was coming from, is like, how do I find myself here and and so forth. So, you know, I I don't mind sharing and I don't mind your comment at all. I think that's accurate. I think that um a lot of times people do replace certain, you know, if you have a uh addictive personality or what have you, I think that it is not uncommon that if you're trying to uh beat the addiction piece, you tend to move that addiction into something else. That's not and I would say in my case, that's probably inaccurate to some extent. That's an there's some accuracy to that comment. So um it's a little bit of my my personal backstory, but I have no problem sharing it.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah, well no, and I appreciate that vulnerability too, because um, and it's not like I obviously I d I never want it to come across as I'm trying to like mar marginalize the uh um the transition from addiction to sobriety as like uh you know just trading one addiction for another. That's really you know, it has to be uh stated. But it's it's mostly that um I I think that like personally for me as a knife maker, um I don't realize sometimes the um relationships that I have with with customers specifically matter sometimes as much as they do. And to me, like really that's kind of like uh you you mentioning that and you like the community and everything being something that is like means something to you, especially in that transition from um addiction to um to sobriety, uh really makes makes me think sometimes more about like the duty that I have uh to make sure that my customers are taken care of, that it's not just a sometimes a transactional type of thing, but to check in and and to, you know, I don't know, maybe think a little bit more about um that maybe something I do um could be the difference in whether somebody continues on the the path of sobriety or the path of uh knowing that they are loved and cared for and things too. Because you know, I I feel that way as a as a maker, like I really do feel that way. Like I love all my customers, like that without without you guys um uh investing in my work and my time, I wouldn't do it because I couldn't afford to do it. Um but to think about that on multiple layers, uh, to me is kind of a profound statement, and I really appreciate you uh uh sharing that with me.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, I like I said, I uh I've been in some form of customer service and sales my whole career, and you know, we I go back to the motorcycle business days. We we had seven employees when I when I started, we started this franchise that was uh actually rebuilt from Salvage motorcycle business, and um we took on Triumph and then we took on Moto uh Ducati, then we took on MotoGootzi, then we took on Vespo year, you know, year after year after year. We did that four straight years, those four franchises. And so we were in Denver and um you know we started in 2000 with Triumph, and by 2003 we were the number one Triumph dealer in the United States for both 2003-2004. Um market share across those brands in the motorcycle world is very small. It's um you're talking about approximately one percent, with you know, like Harley being like 50 or so percent at that time, anyway, and then the rest being made up pretty much by the Japanese makers and so forth. So we were in a very unique um boutique um and one might argue higher end, although Triumph brought in a lower uh a mid-range kind of price point at that point in time. Ducati was a little more esoteric and a little higher end. Um and we grew that business though, you know, so we took on these franchises and we grew that business from seven employees to 35 employees. And when I I left that business in 06, it was about a five million dollar a year dealership, and we'd grown at grassroots, and I was, like I mentioned to you earlier, I was the president of the Triumph Club in Denver for six years, and that whole the whole initial reason why that was the case was because we wanted to have a a riders club represented in the market we were in, and so I took the responsibility to be the, you know, to sign people up and have a meeting and show up and go for rides and build it, and it just grew and grew and grew and grew. And that that just like that business did and just like other businesses do, um, I would suspect that, you know, somebody who like yourself, knife maker, um, I assume you I don't know if you have employees, I assume maybe you don't, or maybe you have one or so, but um, you know, it is a business and that you're you're doing and it is a it's it's a I I assume it's not a ho let's say it's not a hobby, but it could be, but it goes from that to, you know, being a business to a source of income to how you support your family and so forth. And you know, I know it sounds cliched, but you have to put your customer first, I think, and there's a big you you can you can grow your business that way if you you know if you just treat it transactionally I don't know, something to me always gets lost in the the shuffle there. Um I think that you you put your heart and soul into stuff and that comes through. And when that comes through, you make a personal connection, and when you make the personal connection, that's what keeps people around and it's what it's what grows things organically for you that you can't do you can't do, and you almost can't buy it, really. And and you know, I think you'd asked me at one point or previous to this call, um, you know, why collectors or how how like how a new knife maker would pa potentially appeal or why w where would I maybe buy or why would I buy a new knife uh from a a new knife maker and that kind of thing. And like I'd said earlier, I think the um relationship part, obviously the there's a quality question and what you're producing and all that stuff too. Um so you need to all that stuff has to has to resonate. But assuming you're let's assume you're producing a good product and you've you know got a skill set and so forth and things are quality, um, at the end of the day, a big piece of that making the connection part is what's gonna propel you and actually allow you to grow your business. It's what I feel that's what gets you know, a big piece of like me getting into this hobby has been exposure from other people saying you really need to check this this guy out. You should check this out. He's a great guy too. You know, that always seems to go in there with that conversation, almost invariably, at least with the people I've gotten to know, it's always a part of that conversation. It's a great guy, takes care of you, stands behind his work, um, obviously produces great great piece. If it appeals to you, you should check it out. So that word of mouth is really, in most cases, that tends to be what kicks me into like checking out another maker or a new maker, somebody to actually collect. That's really usually where it comes from. It comes from it doesn't necessarily come from me scouring the internet like looking at new stuff, it comes from some one of somebody I trust telling me I should be looking at this. And that comes from you making a connection with the clo with your customers along the way.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah. Well, yeah, and I uh um I with as much time uh that goes into making knives, because I there there's not a situation in handmade knives where you're not investing like really your blood, sweat, and tears uh and putting out a good product. Like you're kind of selling your baby a little bit, and it's it's it's a almost like a sacred transaction. Um and it's like for me at least, I I would prefer that buy knives go to somebody who's going to enjoy and use them. Um, you know, there's always this like weird spot in a knife maker's journey where you you kind of you maybe you make knives and you'll never really get to know the people who buy them, especially on online transactions. It seems like you know, somebody buys something off of like an e-commerce site is very uh sterile, uh transactional, right? But uh knife shows are like the bee's knees. Like I love knife shows because I really get to uh connect the dots where where my knives are going, um, talk to the people that come up to my table and everything. And I love that that's that aspect of it way more than I do on just the e-commerce side. But oddly enough, it seems like um e-commerce and kind of selling on groups randomly is kind of the way that's a lot of knife makers have to uh you know make their do's and everything in to keep everything running. So it's uh it's interesting to me like how how one would go about trying to nurture those uh relationships, especially when a lot of us never get to actually see each other in person.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Well, you know, I mean a lot of them do happen through chat and they do happen through instant messaging and PMs and all that. And uh excuse me, I agree with you that you know, I would assume that um the opportunity to get out to a show and actually shake hands and press the flesh, as you say, and meet people face to face and maybe sell sell your product to somebody and hand it to them and shake their hand and all, I mean that that is um I'm sure there's a lot of satisfaction in that. And it's probably the the best case scenario. Now, you're if you're trying to make a living doing it, it's not realistic for every transaction. And you know, fortunately we do have the internet, and fortunately we do have these groups, and fortunately you can build a business and and online and market yourself online, and there are a lot of examples of knife makers who have done a really great job of doing that. You know, I I point maybe to Jared Ozer um, you know, as a great example of somebody who's a great guy. Um I got to know Jared about when he started making knives, maybe just after. Um, but I've known him a long time, and you know, and and we chat here and there, and some years we don't chat so much, and some years we've chatted more, and lately I've been running into him at the shows, and he and I have a just a really nice connection, and and um, you know, and so he's got that going for him that he's just a great guy. He's also got a great eye, and he's also done a really fantastic job, frankly, of growing a very good business, grassroots, through the internet. Yeah. And you know, and I'm not really talking about his website, Jared, I think it's jarredoser.com. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Facebook group specifically, is what I'm talking about. He's done a really, really great job of of um cultivating his um brand through that website. And it is a it's a brand. You know, your name at that level is your brand, right? I mean, that's what it's about. And um, you know, there are he's done a really, I think, fantastic job of of doing that and made a fairly successful business out of it. You know, it doesn't hurt that he's a hell of a knife maker, too, but at the end of the day, um he's uh he's built a really nice business that way, and he's sold online and in various um, you know, I'll also say this, it it doesn't hurt to have a few different lines in the water, an internet site, Facebook group, um, you know, I don't know what are the other methods you might try to sell through. I mean, obviously if you're doing if you're able to do something production-oriented at some point and get it out there to the to the secondary sellers of the world and that kind of thing, or the um primary sellers of the world, if you will, some of the big names, um, you know, that would be great. That may be a little bit unrealistic at the earlier stages of somebody maybe um who's trying to get started, of course. But um at the end of the day, I do think, you know, there are various ways to skin the cat, as they say. And um, you know, I think having not being a one-trick pony too, so having a few various ways you do that, and other things I think you can do too, uh, that you see that are, you know, I guess Instagram. Um I don't do Instagram a lot, but I'm out there. I do it. But I see people bounce between it. I see people do different things like lottoes and do different things like, you know, all their different marketing, I guess they would be, kind of marketing techniques to be able to make things exciting and and you know get people engaged, that kind of thing. So I think there's there's that too. And um, I know that that's hard because you have to wear a lot of different hats. And sometimes, you know, you might be really good at making knives, but you not might not be very good at marketing, that kind of thing. You know.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

So yeah, well, and I um I think for me, uh well, I I'm all about like talking about personal challenge and stuff like that on here. Um I've I'm I'm I don't really mince too many words when it comes to like my successes, but I I really felt like when I entered um knife making that I wanted to make a really good knife. Like that was my idea. Um, and I focused a lot on that, and I never posted any pictures or did anything like that. I was actually um a member of the knife makers guild um and started doing shows before I really did a lot of any online posting or anything, mostly because I think it meant something to me to have validation from other makers that I had kind of like I had done a good job of learning how to make knives. And um I I think maybe in some ways I hurt myself a little bit because like not not being willing to just like show that I was in the learning process and everything. Um people could have seen for like almost seven years that I'd been making knives, and then to just like all of a sudden come onto the scene and say, like, hey, like you know, I I make these really good, you know, looking knives and everything. You know, you want to buy them and help me out to continue this um expensive hobby failing business. I don't know what you'd call it, right? When in the early days of knife making, right? But um I I think that maybe uh I I I screwed up a little bit there. And I I I I it's all like life. Life is all about like coulda, shoulda, woulda's, and I don't have any regrets, but I do think about somewhat of a um what that looks like to the outside world uh and how I could have done that better if I was maybe a little bit more transparent about like the journey that I was going on in knives.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yeah, I mean that's an interesting I think that's a really interesting comment, actually, that you know, if you if you think about it, you have somebody here who what you're if what you're saying, I'll re- I'll I'll restate what you just said, which is that you basically went out and learned how to make a knife and try to make the best knife you could and try to really um cultivate your skills, let's say, before ever attempting to go out and actually just sell knives, really, and try to make sure that your skills were up to par before you went out to to market yourself, and then all of a sudden you show up on the scene, right? And you're like, oh, I'm here, and you hope that everyone beats down your door to buy your buy your product, and and you really don't have any you don't have a name at that point, right? So therein lies the branding conversation, and so it's um it's already a I think it's a very small um hobby, really. I mean, you know, I I guess it has factions, I get that. You know, there's that the tactical world that's got its whole set of people and fixed play guys, you know, that have their old world and slip joint guys and so forth. But at the end of the day, you know, you're not talking about millions and millions of people here really. You're talking about, you know, thousands and thousands of people, let's say, but at the end of the day, the ones that are actually participating on the online that are that I'm reminded of often, which is that I've got collector friends that aren't online. I've got some older guys that I've made connections with through the years that um I know in various places I call, they call me, they're like, hey, do you want to buy this? And usually the answer is yes, because if I I know if I don't buy it, then I might not get the call next time, that kind of thing. Because I've made a lot of these connections to the like the old school way, you know, the old school ways where you reach out on the phone and you call somebody cold and you introduce yourself and you say this is you know who I am, and so-and-so gave me your name and told me to call you, and I just want to introduce myself and let you know that I'm you know looking for these things, and at some point in time, if you have any of that and you're interested in you know parting ways, let me know. And then you get to know them, you get to know them, you get to know them. And you know, there's a lot of people that don't do social media or that aren't out there too. So at the end of the day, you do have the opportunity, um, you know, with like you say, your journey, so to speak, of kind of documenting your journey, really, of saying, yeah, I'm starting here and then I'm here. And so I think, you know, if you show up with a great product, awesome, but you have to get it in front of people. And then you have to actually, and in our world, therein lies kind of the the you know, this is where owning it from a if you're talking about being a collector or user or whatever, because I use some of mine, I don't use some of mine, you know, it's a mixed bag. But um, but from the collection perspective, um a big piece of it's owning it, touching it. Have you know, I I mean I've bought lots of knives that I've owned for a day or two, you know, and I'm like, uh, not for me, and I'll move it along, whatever, and then others I keep and so forth, and I have curated, if you will, this collection over the last decade um of what I personally, what appeals to me, and um, you know, and like I said earlier, I've passed some of that stuff on and I've passed on some plenty of good knives for sure. I can't keep them all, I don't intend to, uh, but then I've kept some some stuff and I've grown the collection through time and so forth. And you know, a big piece of that is having to touch it, feel it, um, own it. And um that's you know, you're I think speaking for what you're speaking to what you just said, therein lies your success will come from people having owning touching it, owning it, etcetera, which is also why shows and so forth. Like you can't do enough shows, really. Yeah, really. Truthfully, not at your level. You know, I'm a good friend with um with Ben Belkin, um, another guy that I've met who's also great, I mean, just a great guy. I love him to death. Um, he and I have been buying and selling knives for pretty much almost the whole time I've been into knives um uh in this you know second go-around in my adult life. And um, you know, he and I bought and sold through the years and so forth. And then when he started in, you know, he um for those who don't know, he's the owner of of Jack Wolf Knives, and he's done a really, really great job of of growing that brand online in all the different media categories and so forth, and every, you know, I'm sure he's got lines in the water everywhere, and which is you know uh kudos to him, and it's uh it shows what you can do. Um, and we talked pretty extensively before he ever started the company, and when he was designing the knives and working with Henrique, he worked with Enrique Pena, uh helped him kind of to get the designs right and to connect him with um uh manufacturers and stuff like that. And so we talked at length about that business and the branding side of that and so forth, and um what he what his goals were to grow the business and so forth. And uh, you know, and I'm super proud of him, and I'm um I'm very impressed, actually. I mean he's he's a very impressive guy. He's done a fantastic job, and honestly, the product is fantastic. I mean, shameless plug, and I know I'm on your show, so hopefully that's okay. But he um, you know, he's done a he's done a great job, and I think he would be a good person to look at, or if you don't know him, he would be somebody to speak to, maybe, and talk to. He would be glad to share with you, I'm sure, some of the things he's done. And so it it might be just a thought, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Yeah, well, I mean, uh yeah, I know I know his work and everything in the business. I think that um like he came to the market with a really good production uh knife. And and uh I have to say, like, I'm really impressed. And I I think that um that whatever sweet spot he hit um it really has done well for him. Um but you know, like I I also think that um there's lots of things that we don't see um at the surface. Like I mean, you and I are talking about like uh like the finished product is that we see the knives that have come to market and he's successful in the brand, but I I don't honestly know a whole lot about like what the struggle was to get there. You know, did Enrique give him the ability in some ways, or tips or uh you know, a nod or something to make like that happen in some ways. Um I I often find that with knives it's not just a single person that makes it uh in this really crazy like micro-niche world of uh knives, but typically it's because of the network and the people that you know and everybody helping each other out. Um so I'm interested to know those kind of things. I'd love to be able to have them on the the podcast and talk through that because um because like uh I mean I just I have my perspective and I love to talk to you guys to to understand a little bit more and give everybody listening uh food for thought. Because I think that at the end of the day, I mean you could tell me nine million times that I suck at marketing myself and branding, and maybe in the like the nine million and first time that you tell me, I it would actually click. I mean, so so I I've been told I've been hardheaded before. Um, but you know, it's I I I think that it's important to have that iterated as many times as possible. And I'm gonna use it for instance. So my wife and I love watching uh documentaries and movies and things like that, specifically documentaries. And the History Channel has this uh this uh it's on its third season, but it's like the Foods That Built America. And they go through like Milton Kellogg and uh Pepsi and Coke and everything and how they built uh their empires. And the single thing that I've noticed on every single episode and how they talk about the success factor of those brands is tenacity, um innovation, and understanding that a singular mindset about what it is, like what their value proposition is, are the things that carried them through. So as long as you know like what you what do you what do you actually believe in and how hard are you willing to work for it, and you stick with that regardless of whether you know you're in prohibition times or whether there's some competitor that's trying to cut you out of the market or whatever, that if you believe in that and you singularly focus on that thing, that that's what builds brand recognition. Um and I think that it's valuable. I mean, we're talking about multi-billion dollar companies today, but back back in the day, you know, especially um the the co like the corollaries to early traditional American cutlery and like Camelist and other companies like that is very similar. They were going through the same thing in the uh mid to late 1800s, and whether it's food or knives or whatever, I I really think that it's about a a belief system and being able to understand what your value proposition is in the industry first and then other people will pick that up eventually.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, no, I think that's very right on. Um I think through many years and being in business, you oftentimes uh will be reminded that you stick to you really try you should try to stick to really what you know and what you do well, um, i.e. what you're kind of saying with value proposition or what is my my mission, if you will. Um you know, trying to be clear, very clear on that and and as you say, dedicated to to a fault, you know, completely focused, hyper focused on that. And typically if you're um you know, combine that with a need, let's say, some then you will find that you will create a market and create a brand. And um, you know, so I think that's that's a good analogy. And um you know, and at the same time, you know, ever it's like anything in life. You need some luck and you need timing and you need other things too, right? Uh divine intervention if you believe in that kind of thing, sometimes doesn't hurt either. Yeah. Um you know, um so there is a lot that goes into all of it. But I do think that if you um if you focus on something and you have a a good product and you have a a product that people would want or need, um, because people do need knives too, you know. Um at the end of the day, I think that you can um you can get focused on creating a brand. And there are various ways to do that beyond just hiring a marketing company or paying for ad, you know, trying to go pay for advertising with money you don't have and that kind of thing. Um and you know, that's something that's pretty cool actually with the internet and with so forth. Because back in the day, you know, if you didn't have that kind of platform, it would be a much different conversation, wouldn't it? Um you wouldn't exactly be in a position to have the exposure that we do and and can enjoy in this kind of medium. And um, you know, so I think being able to take advantage of those things is um, you know, you're you're in a position where you could do that. And I think given time, you know, speaking back to your conversation about seven years later, here I am. I mean, what you really were saying kind of is yeah, there's a transparency part there, but uh I think of it less as that, less of that part and more of just a I'm just starting to get my brand out there now, kind of thing. You know, it's just uh you can't ever start too soon, maybe, is kind of what I heard you say a little bit, perhaps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yeah, and I think um it's that that's really kind of the point. It's like if if anybody's gonna learn from some of my mistakes, it's like it's it's there's always going to be a a customer base or a fan base that will accept you like for who you are and what you do. And not everything has to be perfect. Um, but if you don't start at some point, then you enter as like a new maker. Like so seven years in, I'm not a new maker, but seven seven years in I am a new maker. And uh that that can be really frustrating because after seven seven years of uh beating the ground and my head against the wall trying to make a good knife, I really do find at some point in times that um the the the sales do not equal the quality of work that I put out, and that can be frustrating because you know it it's it's um it's a high stake margin um here. I mean it's uh you know, you there's a lot of a lot of money that's been wrapped up in the business to make a a good quality blade. And if you don't sell knives, then it's really difficult to make the next one.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Right. No, I bet. I can appreciate that completely. And you know, I think that I've recognized that through the years with some of the folks that I've collected, you know, and it's interesting because um I don't remember you had said something a while back on one of the chats we had or something along that lines, but you know, I've kind of got my I'm kind of I always describe my collection as narrow and deep. And you know, I've got a set of makers that I kind of focus on. And within within those makers, I'm focused on I need this pattern, or I want one of these, or the day when the day comes that that lockback whittler pops up, I'm gonna buy it if I can. You know, that kind of that the hunt part. So but it's but really I don't actually have like a very wide array of makers and stuff. I've got a pretty narrow, my collection is um is fairly narrow and deep. And then I'll go off and check this out, and I'll go off and check that out, and I'll buy one of these here or there or whatever, but um pick something up along the way, kind of. But as far as like checking out brand new makers often and things of that nature, usually I won't uh unless I run into some I have a somebody bring it here to my house or I go to a show or I got a friend that I go meet or something like that, and they're like, oh, check this out. And then I get to touch field and that kind of thing. Oh, that is pretty good, you know, that kind of thing. And um, so there is that uh that breaking into the market part, even though you're really good. I mean, you pretty much are forced, of course, to in most cases sell your wares at a price point that won't turn people off, that'll allow them the opportunity to check it out, get it in hand, and then grow from there, but you can't come in probably charging what you're worth or what you feel you're worth, perhaps. And that's varied, right? Because it's worth what somebody's willing to pay for it. But uh, as a collector, I often run into this, you know, you will see every once in a while a new maker or something on the scene, and all of a sudden you're looking at the price points and you're like, at least from my perspective, you're like, wow, that sure seems like an awful lot for somebody who's like brand new, you know, that kind of thing, which is kind of my version of like, well, I won't be buying that kind of thing, right? Because I mean that's kind of what goes through my head. Um maybe I'd change my mind later if I got to handle it and that kind of thing, yes. But um being new, new, I I use air quotes. Um, you know, there's also this element of as a collector, you want you want the maker long, you want them bought in long term, right? And so there's that history, as you were kind of getting at, I guess, and saying, you know, if I was able to document my my um growth over time of my going from learning to where you're at now. The nice thing about that is is that people saw where you were at and now where you're where you were coming from and where you are now, and that you've been through things and you've been and you're in it for the long haul, and you have the opportunity to um let's say uh have conviction around that, you know. Um it gives confidence, is I guess the word I'm looking for from a collection perspective, because a lot of times, let's face it, I mean I've bought I've got some great knives from some folks that don't make knives anymore, you know, but my whole concept of collecting them kind of goes downhill real quick when they decide they're out of the game, that kind of thing. They may have a great knife, but I'm not nearly as interested in having a big stash of these knives unless I could own them for you know pennies on the dollar, which eventually that's kind of what happens, right? So you don't want to be buying those at top dollar and then find out that the maker is gone either. Um, as much as I love knives, my collection is a combination of um an investment, um a uh hobby, a uh you know, uh I appreciate handmade goods. I appreciate the work part. So that's not lost on me at all. Um, you know, the the quality. So like and therein lies what you may have to offer, I would say, would be, you know, having seven years in, um, somebody who knows what they're looking at, if they if they have the opportunity to handle your your knives, is going to be able to tell. And, you know, um sometimes that's the best part too, as far as being a collector, is being able to find somebody where you can get something like that at a good price, you know, and kind of grow with them as their as their stock rises. You're in early as their stock goes up, that kind of thing, too.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

So thank you for listening to this part of the Good Old Blades podcast with my guest Trip Miller. Stay tuned next week for episode two. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you are loved and God blessed.