We will now interrupt the regularly scheduled program for this good old Blades micro podcast. As with I think most things, uh knives in knife making is not uh void of uh fads and uh you know shifts in uh desires of certain uh designs or patterns and handle materials and things like that. And um I wanted to talk a little bit about uh vintage Micarta or Makarta in general and and some other handle materials and things like that, just talk about like this vintage Makarta craze, especially Westinghouse. Um, you know, it for the longest time in knives, Makarta was looked at as a durable, like working man's material. Um if you wanted to go with more premium materials, you went with Mother of Pearl, uh Sandbar Stag, you went with something like desert ironwood and uh and mammoth ivory. Um you know, some of these uh things like Usik and whatnot, too. And uh over time, as those supplies have kind of uh dried up, as it were, uh you see a shift to other materials that were you know are plentiful. Uh there are lots of knife makers that would put uh Makarta on their knives, but uh you know, again, they were they were just utilitarian materials, they were not anything great, and they did not um uh command a a larger price point because of that. Um you know, you if you wanted a working man's knife, maybe you put Makarta on it. Um as at at Sambarstag, um the export of it from India had been uh heavily restricted. Mother Pearl uh slowly had gone the way of the dodo because the the large um shells that produced it were becoming more and more rare, um, especially as you know other industries uh you know utilized a lot of this the surplus and everything that had been there. So over um overfishing or over-collecting had caused problems too. Um desert ironwood, um, a lot of the old growth uh had been used up, and you you don't see an exceptional amount of uh the the really high quality dark um chatoyant burl uh that you used to, especially in the 70s through the 90s. Um a lot of that has dried up. So um something to understand about vintage micartas is that um the the fibers that are used in phenolic resin, so a formaldehyde-based resin, um are uh uh they did they differ. Uh you basically have uh three major types. You have uh paper, canvas, and linen. And there were a lot of industrial purposes for uh Makarta in the the early days, um, you know, thinking as far back as probably the 1920s or 30s. And in addition with that, some of the fibers uh were also uh asbestos. So um a lot of micarta was used for industrial purposes, and um so uh so like flame resistance or heat resistance was a was a large deal. And you can see some early um uh forms of phenolic resin, um micarta in aircrafts and electrical components and circuit boards and large breaker systems and things like that. Um it was it was all used to buffer electricity and heat and and things. Uh Westinghouse, um I I believe in the late 40s, early 50s uh approximately, uh produced Makarta, but found other purposes in household goods, like um uh the uh veneering for uh furniture and uh trays and things like that. So they they basically repurposed the in the industrial side of their of their uh product uh for uh for home use and everything and decor. And a lot of what you see uh in the in the the desirable form of Makarta now uh really comes from this um marketing and use that comes from Westinghouse um primarily. So it it's not a surprise at least that the most desirable Mikarta to use and and what is now some of the most valuable, and I'm using air quotes there, valuable, um, is Westinghouse and specifically paper micarta, so like Ivorite. Um Ivorite uh the uh with the 1970s Mamillion Act ban, um paper micarta, and specifically ivorite kind of gave a an ivory type um material that knifemakers could use as a um uh as a a replacement for ivory, uh, where you know restrictions and things like that applied. And as it ages, it turns into um most likely a cream colored uh and that that patina is something that's very desirable. Um in in the knife industry now, things like patina and age and um accent is something that knife uh users and collectors and whatnot like because the knife starts out new, but then they impart the patina uh through use and time, and it's something that it's it's very unique to the user or the collector. Uh, you know, those those materials don't stay static and looking the same for very long. Uh they're always patining and changing uh with the the environment, basically. Um what you see in cost of certain types of micartas, uh, you know, especially the vintage micartas, really comes from a supply and demand uh perspective. Now, uh new micartas do not have the same phenolic uh resin component to it, so you'll find that uh in a lot of cases newer resins are a little bit more uh gummy. Uh they don't hold the same kind of sheen that the old ones did, and they're not as dense. And uh there are lots of manufacturers out there that are producing uh good um Mikarta alternatives that are kind of meeting some of the behavioral traits of the of the vintage stuff, but it's just really not exactly the same. So, like um maybe you know six, seven years ago, uh approximately, maybe a little bit shorter time, uh there was uh uh a few people that would buy up most of the stock of Westinghouse materials as it became available and as the trend started to shift, and artificially you know, it inf artificially inflated the market and the price. So you have guys who you know buy up uh you know entire slabs or whatever of uh you know ivorite or um uh paper micarta uh from Westinghouse, and uh if it has stickers that uh denote its its authenticity, then uh they jacked the price up. And it used to be, you know, maybe you could get a uh 316 set of scales for like, I don't know, eight bucks, you know, even back in in the 90s, uh not not too hard. Even in the 2000s, you could find something for 20, 30 bucks, not not a big deal. Um, it's only really within like the last five or so years approximately that you see these astronomical prices, like you know, three, four, five hundred dollars for a you know, three three sixteen to a quarter inch scale set, and uh up into you know more than a thousand dollars for the rarer like reds, uh blues, and greens in Westinghouse. And uh you also will uh see a lot of people that say things are Westinghouse uh for the uh the provenance component, but really there's no way to uh to uh authenticate that. Now, you know, it's one of those things where there were a lot there were a lot of uh manufacturers of different types of Mikarta. Westinghouse happens to be one of them, uh, but there is also a lot out there that was never made in a Westinghouse facility, it doesn't have the same components of Westinghouse and so on and so forth. So um I think probably uh the point uh to remember is that uh Westinghouse Micarta, it's not garbage, but it's not you know $1,1500, uh $2,000 for a scale set type of material. Um that it comes uh completely from an artificial inflated market, kind of like DeBairs does with diamonds. Um I'm not going to say it's it's theft because it is supply and demand, it's finite. There's there's none none being made, and there's not a lot of uh uh places where you can find it. Um maybe they're sitting in some old timers uh you know scale sets or whatever. Some people don't care about it. Um, but when people uh get a hold of it who um you know think that there's a value to it, they end up uh you know charging an exceptional amount. Uh kind of one thing that about that is that you know there's lots of applications where that kind of Makarta, you know, it really hits a spot on a uh pattern aesthetic or whatever. Um and it would be nice to be able to have access to it at times. Uh but yeah, you can't because people are hoarding um collections of it, and when they do release it, they're asking astronomical prices. And to me, uh I don't know. Like there's lots of other materials out there. Um there's lots of other Makarta type products, there's other uh natural materials and things that, to be honest with you, I think uh look better. Uh there's new canvas and linen Makartas, there's vintage Makartas that are not authenticated, uh Westinghouse uh and potentially from other manufacturers, and all of those, you know, they they look good, they do the job, and um you know you can't say anything bad about it, but I I really um hesitate to think that the uh Westinghouse Makarta that I have, for instance, um is worth you know four or five hundred bucks. Uh point being kind of is that you know, as an as a knife maker, even though you can charge um uh higher prices uh as you develop uh your skill set and your notoriety and everything, um, you know, you can charge more. Um if you think about a scale set, um, you know, the the the you have to charge at least the replacement or the fair market value for uh for a piece of something uh that you're putting on handles and um you know Damascus and things like that. Like it's whatever it costs or however you can get it, that's kind of how rare it is. And so you change a knife that you know, maybe it costs you a hundred bucks to make something with a material, you know, sixty sixty dollar uh set of nice scales, um you know, maybe thirty, forty dollars in in metal and the heat treating costs and Corby fasteners or pins or things like that. Um you know, maybe maybe you include a sheath in the price, but you know, you slap on a $400 piece of scales and you have to immediately jack that price up $400 plus dollars. So a knife that might have cost you know $500 now costs $900 to $1,000 just by virtue of the handle material. And I think that's where it's difficult for some knife makers uh because the inflation has limited the ability for a lot of makers to have access to those materials, even though they're practically worthless in in terms of their material quality. Like it's no different than um the the the quality or um um material aesthetic of like rich light or new paper Makarta, but it has this um this you know desire in the industry and it has to be authentic Westie and because it's that it costs more. I would not get too hung up on that. If if knife if knife uh handle suppliers or or private collectors or whatever are trying to charge an astronomical amount for uh for Makarta, it will solve itself because eventually people are gonna move on to something else, the fat is gonna be over, and instead of um having that uh available as an option at the high astronomical prices that are being charged now, nobody will want to pay for it. So uh those those supplies will be largely defunct. I I think that we're probably on the verge of that. It's been a good run. People do like Makarta, less people are willing to pay pay the high prices, and so eventually, you know, people are gonna move on to the other things that are available, and then uh that that uh market is gonna have a bubble, and all these people who are sitting on you know their quote unquote hordes of materials uh will likely um lose an exceptional amount of value because of the uh the the greed um associated with it. So I mean I cannot I I can't fault uh a person for uh selling something at a fair price based on demand and everything, uh, but to artificially limit the supplies of availability and whatnot because you know you you bought it low and you want to sell it extraordinarily high. Um, if a bubble occurs, I will not be too too upset over it. Mostly because uh I would never charge those type of prices for the Westing house that I have. You know, maybe uh maybe a reasonable price, like you know, 150-200 bucks uh for a scale set to put it on a knife, um, just because that's kind of somewhere in the middle. Uh, but I likely would just be depleting my stock and never be able to replace it. So once it's gone, it's gone. So um, you know, those those type of material ethics um and treating your customers right based on um based on the fact that you know not everybody has an extra $500 to a thousand dollars to dump into a knife uh for the the handle material itself, it's kind of um it's kind of one of those things. Uh kind of somewhere where I draw the line is like uh antique ivory, mammoth ivory, uh some exceptional uh like exhibition style uh sandbar stags, you know, like those are so incredibly hard to find and so finite that really each piece is very unique and uh you know I don't know, it's it's just it's just like you're never gonna find it again. Westinghouse is really one of those things where it's more that people have it and uh a few people uh have larger supplies of it, and they jack the prices up artificially. So um, you know, just buyer beware. Um, you know, not everybody's gonna be able to afford it, and it's a self-solving problem. The bubble will pop, people move on to other things, collectors will want other things, and then you you know, you might find that those people who hold on to them, uh their their uh assets depreciate significantly, and then they end up selling it because they move on to something else too. So um, you know, don't get too hung up on it. Um there are uh avenues out there to buy uh less expensive uh Westinghouse and other things from people who uh you know are private collectors of it and just want you know it to go in the hands of makers and um you know be used for customers. So uh you can kind of find it around, but it's getting pretty hard. And uh uh you know, maybe if your customer really wants it, then just know kind of what you're what you're looking at price-wise. But you know, again, there's a there's a lot of other materials out there that I think are are uh as nice, probably superior to that, um, you know, those type of uh Westinghouse materials or whatever, because there's really only a few and they get a lot of notoriety, but I you know again, they'll go the way of the dodo, like uh USIC. Nobody really uses USIC anymore, um except on you know represent representing uh the older knife makers or whatever. Uh but yeah, I hope that helps. Um, you know, really just to think about the materials uh choices that you're offering to your customers, think about the maximum amount that you're willing to pay for it, and also know that there are a ton of options out there that are not part of this uh you know artificially and super uh artificially inflated and super hyped um industry that is vintage Makarta.