SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about everything and everything done. Thank you for listening in to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I am joined by Master Smith Lynn Ray. Lynn Ray is an integral part of the blacksmithing and bladesmithing community with a special focus towards heritage blacksmithing and also is a large proponent and researcher for the history and documentation of James Blackstyle buoy knives. Lynn has spent a long time uh trying to research and develop methods for identification of buoy knives and their origins. And it's an extreme pleasure to get to talk to you today, Lynn. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Thank you, Aaron. I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, absolutely. It's my pleasure entirely. Um I think probably the first thing I will admit is that um for the longest time I thought that your last name was pronounced pronounced Raya instead of Ray. And um I was doing a little bit of research on uh surnames for Ray, and I I found that there's like two uh primary origins. One is uh with uh the Scottish uh culture and the other with is with Greek. Um can you tell me uh which way it leads? Are you uh are you one of Scottish heritage or Greek?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Well that's a good question. Uh I don't know really. Um we in our family lore we we go to Scotland, so uh really not sure if the actual name is uh anything other than Scottish. I d I have heard those other uh origins as well mentioned to me, but I I just don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

That's really fascinating to me because uh in in my research I was looking back at the uh you know the lineage of that name and it goes back uh to before the the Middle Ages in uh Scottish history, and uh you know one of the oldest forms of names from you know the picked people uh back there. So I uh I I think that's a a very fascinating component of your history.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

It it it does to us too. I mean, it that's the same understanding we have as well, but uh we have not deeply gone back into the history to see what the true origins or you know we haven't done any DNA searches yet, but we plan on it.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

So uh talk to me a little bit about your your origins. Um I've read uh little snippets about your life here and there, um, but I really I'm just interested to know a little bit more about um who you are outside of knives, and then we'll get into your knife making journey, if that's okay. That is fine.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yes. Um I was born here in Arkansas, not far from where I sit right now, in central Arkansas, and uh was raised my whole life around here, and um I've been an outdoors person fishing, hunting, raised in a what I consider a very good, close family. I've got um two older sisters who are both deceased, and I've got two younger brothers that are really close in age, so we're all kind of partners in crime throughout our life, and still remain close. And uh I've got four kids, um and they're all grown with some with kids of their own. Uh so that kind of set me up for uh being interested in knives. I've always been really, really interested in uh a good knife, good good quality uh guns and knives, you know, an outdoors person, they thrive on that kind of thing. So uh yeah, I've I went to I went to the school down there in Washington, Arkansas, and took my first class in uh 2002 at my wife's suggestion in prodding. I explained to her that I really wanted to make a good knife, and I was trying to make some knives, but they weren't too good. I didn't really know what I was doing. I needed to go get some basics. So then I started taking uh classes, and I took a class every year or so for several years and took to it really well, and uh before I knew it, I was I was going to shows and had my table and things like that, so sort of fell into it.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

That's uh that's cool. I I I think that probably for me that the same thing kind of happened, although uh you know I'm still in the earlier stages of my knife making journey. Um I think I've been in it seven years now. Uh but uh originally I so I would hunt for uh like the Texas usual, like whitetail um hog, and I got uh selected for a a draw hunt on uh in South Texas for Nilguy. I don't know if you're familiar with the Indian antelope, but yeah, yeah, I know what it is. Yeah, yeah. So uh for listeners, in I believe it was the uh early 1900s, uh the nil guy was a gift from uh royalty in India uh to the King Ranch uh down in uh the South Texas area. And um a few of them had had passed because they were acclimated to the uh temperatures, but then uh I believe that the King Ranch uh shipped a bunch more over from India, and now they've kind of proliferated in the South Texas area. But it they are they are kind of like a mix between a cow and an antelope, so they're they're very large so the bulls can get to you know eight, nine hundred pounds, and they're you know trophy animals. Um but they taste really good and they're interesting to hunt, and they have horns and things like that that could be used in knives, so uh for the for the sake of uh uh covering that. But um what happened was is I was I was uh I ever every time I was hunting, I would end up having dull knives, uh, you know, because it was just like 440 C or uh whatever. I mean, it was it wasn't they they were manufactured stamped out knives and the heat treating was not great. And I found that on bigger game it was just you know very arduous to try to uh get from the start to the finish on a single um deer or whatever, and still have a sharp knife, and that really bugged me, especially on a um you know a 300-pound uh cow no guy. And uh, and so I was like, I I gotta do something different. So I don't know why I didn't just buy a custom knife because this um adventure has been you know a costly investment in learning knives, but um I I've enjoyed it along the way. But it it comes from like a a deep desire to make a good knife because it just felt like at least what you could buy um at the time um was just not really great.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah, I agree. Uh same with me. Um I do I too had a deep desire to have a good knife, but unfortunately I couldn't uh always afford a good knife. I'd somehow acquire them, you know. I'd buy, of course, a lot of them, and I found some in the woods people left behind accidentally, you know, dropped it or something, and I'd end up making a sheath wort. Um and I still have a lot of those knives from ch childhood, and uh, but I too wanted to have a knife that would hold an edge and that would be a real tool and not just a novelty or just something that was disposable. You know, I don't like the whole idea of disposable. Um I'm not talking about the ones you replace the blades. I'm talking about the ones that are so cheap. You use them a few times, and if you lose it, you don't lose any sleep at all over it. You just go buy another one. That's the kind I'm talking about. I don't I wanted a good knife, one that you value like you would your your firearm or your truck, you know, you take care of them.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, no, I I fully agree. And uh, you know, I it's interesting how how many parallel parallels there are between us because like my uh early exposure to knives, like I always feel like uh growing up, because I grew up in the uh Appalachian uh mountains in Pennsylvania, and I feel like the culture was like everybody had a knife. Like both of my grandparents were in World War II, they always had pocket knives, either a lockback or a slip joint, uh, some fixed blades, and I feel like it was just you you have knives everywhere. And uh an early example was my my grandparents uh found a it was it I think it was a cameless slip joint, it was like a muskrat and um and like a two-bladed trapper and gave it to me when I was like six or seven, uh when I once I could finally open that thing because I was breaking off my nails and everything on it. And and they found it and gave it to me, and I thought that that was really cool. And from an early uh from an early age, uh buoy knives had always interested me because I grew up in like the um I grew up in an area that was like I I don't know uh set back in time quite a quite a ways. And I mean, you know, for anybody who lives in rural areas, sometimes that can happen where it just feels like the the scene is uh much older than current day. Like I it felt like I was growing up in the 50s and 60s at times, um, especially because the area was impoverished. And uh so I I watched a lot of my my uncle, great uncle would uh record on the Disney Channel uh all the old Davy Crockett uh movies and Zorro and things like that. And so like the the Alamo and uh Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett and the Pi Pioneer era um all fascinated me, and that was one thing that got me really interested in buoys, you know, even being up north so far. And so and so I think uh like for me, I've always really admired the art form, and that's you know, a large impetus for wanting to have you on the show, is I just feel that you are the quintessential buoy man, like uh and from a history perspective and everything. So I'd like to actually start asking you more questions uh so we can get into that more. But uh what got you from the from the phase of uh doing like just knife making in general to really zeroing in on buoy knives and buoy history? Good question.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Um well I started participating in cutting competitions early on, not long after I started making knives, and uh so those are naturally going to be larger knives, but since I too am a buoy fan, I didn't want to go to the cleaver style or uh the way some of the competitors were going toward the cleavers and uh kind of steering away from a cross guard and a sharp clip, which buoys have, they were going more to the guardless and uh chopped off front end on the on the blade, and more like a race knife as if I had to describe it. Uh I wanted to stay with tradition. I'm a traditional person. I like I like uh muzzle loading, I like the whole idea of, I mean everything from BB guns to slingshots to firearms, everything traditional. Uh I enjoy. Uh but what really I think there's two other things that boosted me uh towards that way. Another thing is um I started working at that historic museum, Historic Arkansas Museum. And of course, buoy knives, that's one I was right in the middle of it. I was, I mean, I it I fell into a place that I could I was couldn't have been in a better spot to be learning about the history of the buoy knife, the stories and legends and accounts. I mean, literal, uh I literally I could read, go to the archives, or to the library. Um they have a library there, believe it or not, a really good, well-stocked uh library at the Historic Arkansas Museum, and I had access to it so I could learn all about the historical aspects of the knife. Uh loved that part of it. But they also were training me to be a historic blacksmith. So uh my whole uh my whole mind and and uh uh fields of interest were steered towards the historic side of things. So um and the traditional ways of getting there, you know. I mean, if I'm gonna make a knife, I'm gonna forge it. Uh which I had already been forging blades due to going to the school, the ABS school. But when I started learning historic blacksmithing, then uh I started understanding historic techniques better and learning to use the historic um coal forge and the the tools that the common blacksmith had back in the 1800s. I started understanding those things. So I guess what it did is just sort of got my mind to think in the in that direction. And and so it could not have um I I guess it was just inevitable that it was going to change the way I make knives. It was gonna change the look and style of my work. And um people commented on that, and you know when when you're in in the moment and you're working over a period of time, you you may not notice that there's changes taking place yourself, but other people see it because they're standing back looking at it objectively. And so uh that started making me not just notice it, but I started um consciously um directing it that way. And so, you know, it just it it works for me, and I so now I'm really uh encouraging other people to do it. Um to the point of irritation probably. I am uh trying to get pe people that forge to forge more, to forge close, to study the historic aspects of it. So yeah, I I do you know it wasn't conscious that I would uh at first go that direction, but now that I have uh I want to share it because I think it it helps a person to have more options. It helps them develop a style a little bit easier. Uh and and uh that's that's really it in a nutshell is is those influences that I uh that I was uh approached with and uh around those are what kind of steered me toward the historic side in the in the buoy, traditional buoy shape.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

I I find I find that fascinating, um your uh exposure into blacksmithing and everything. And I I think uh for me it's quintessential uh qu quintessentially uh heritage, right? If you think about uh blacksmithing being one of the uh the early staples of a community, uh and that uh like forge to finish and and tolerance was one of the the core tenets of blacksmithing because we didn't have the same kind of grinders and everything like that that we have today, that um it it it it it pulls very deep from blacksmithing roots uh from uh you know ancient times. And I I appreciate and I think I've always appreciated that um you make an incredible knife that you hardly have to touch with a grinder. And if more if more um artisans and bladesmiths and everything um were were to adopt that kind of mentality, I just think that the quality of work and the the reliance on on grinders and stock removal to get to the final form um would like that that paradigm would change a little bit. But I think that there's kind of a safety net with you know with uh blacksmithing and the introduction uh to the craft where it's like if if I can't really bladesmith something, then I can always grind it out in in post-production, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah, um there's a there's a thought that occurs to me a lot these days, and I try to enact it, uh of course myself, but I try to explain my feelings about this thought to others, and that is um whereas today in the modern blacksmith shop or knife maker shop, we uh we are being pulled by the necessity that uh we're trying to make money, time is money. Those kind of thinking, those kind of thoughts are are overriding. Um and so we buy the next greatest tool, the next thing that saves us time, saves us effort, speeds our process up. So in in that way we give ourselves a raise, so to speak, because we can do it uh with less effort, more uh more saving more time. Uh but I kind of went the other way for for this reason, and this is has to do with that thought, that I am an integral part of this process. The maker must be the most important part of the process. So if I choose my projects or create a project or a design that in which I must be the most necessary part of the process, then it will elevate my skills. It will cause me to be uh uh a more important play a more important role in this process. So whereas um sometimes time, you know, I must consider the time factor. I gotta get this done because I gotta a show, I gotta leave in the morning, so to speak, you know, for example. Uh and that happens. Um but uh generally speaking, if I if I um take responsibility myself as being the most important part of this process, the most important tool. Um it's it's my skill level. If if I can't do it, it's not gonna get done. I can't rely on a machine, uh, CNC, uh MIL, um, or any other set of modern equipment, tools, grinders, etc. I have to do this myself, uh, or it's not gonna happen. This process uh I'm thinking uh at that time, at that moment, I'm thinking this process requires me to do my part. Um and and that's what that's what keeps coming to me, uh this thought and this idea and this responsibility, sense of responsibility comes to me whenever I'm working the way I do. Here with a coal fire, I've got uh historic anvil, uh uh, you know, a Peter Wright Vice, and uh um it's it just directs your mind uh back in time and you sort of take on the persona and play the part. So uh, you know, I don't forget what year we're we're in or anything like that. Uh I'm just saying I feel a connection to those Smiths back in the 1800s, early 1800s, um, because I'm doing things the way they've done it, and I feel that connection, and I think it makes me a better Smith.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Well yeah, I I agree because uh in my in my own knife making experience um it is really hard to navigate knife making. Um there's just so many different ways that you can get into it, so many different paths that you can follow. Um and I I think What I've discovered in my conversations with others is that there's usually some point in time when a knife maker actually um gets past the rudiments of how to make a knife and into the what makes me, like what makes me the knife maker, what makes what makes the work um a representation of my desires uh versus uh just I don't know where you know you can take a a pattern that somebody else has made and replicate it and you know it's it's that pattern, but what is me, right? And I think that uh I think that there's not a lot of clarity in what what paths a maker takes. And I'll use it for instance. I've I've thought about um my own mortality uh quite a bit in in my knife shop. You know, I've invested all this money in equipment and materials and things, and and I think about what I'm what I'm creating uh for my wife and for my kids and everything if uh if something should happen to me. And the reality is what I've created is a lot of equipment that they'll have to sell off to uh recoup whatever I've invested in it, and that it pretty much stops with me. Like there is in knife making, especially in a lot of crafts, I feel is like it is a single, like a sole proprietorship. And and and uh there is no unless the kids are really interested in carrying on the craft holistically, um, it pretty much stops with the maker. And uh because of that, I've thought a lot about uh how does knife making from a philosophy diverge? And I think that one path you take is you accept the fact that your knife making is a sole proprietorship, that you are the only one that will impart what what you have to bring to the world on your knives. And the other is that you can uh you can go the production route or the business route for knives, where everything is lather, rinse, repeat. It's you know, it's about repeatability, production, and the margin that you get on your blade. Um, one way I feel like you go down, it is really about pushing your craft and your um your aesthetic and the things that you really care about in your work, like the same way as a painter might uh paint a certain thing. And then the other is, you know, I'm making live, laugh, love placards to sell on Etsy or whatever, uh for however much that costs and however quickly I can I can produce it. And I I wish that was clearer earlier on for knife makers, uh, because I really think that there is a there's a fork in the road, and you have to decide, are you going to um are you going to push your yourself and your craft? Are you going to um go production and worry about the business of knives? Or are you going to uh you know fizzle out because you don't know what you're going to do and you don't really care anymore? And I I you know I I think that that's kind of what it comes down to. Like what I've discovered is really there are there are really two paths. It's either you do it for a business and you try to make you whatever margin you can, or you do it because you love the craft and because you're just trying to create something that is uniquely you.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yes. Uh the the way I would the realization that came to me when it came, uh I describe it like this. Um it's like a chef uh as opposed to a cook. A cook can take someone else's recipe and imitate that or use it, follow it, and do okay. But but sooner or later they're still just a cook. I mean, you have to realize that they're doing other people's um work or following other people's recipe. But a chef can take the flavors and textures and the different techniques and mix and match and put together a new recipe. I mean, actually create. So being creative is what I think is the goal of of this the other fork in the road that you alluded to is uh can you be creative? Can you actually innovate and create? Can you and and there's a so many ways of doing that. I mean, there's no end to it. I've heard people say this everything has been done, and we just are rediscovering. Well, that that's true a lot of the times, but um there's still room for creativity and a lot of it. Uh there's plenty of room for that. And uh it just so happens my choice for borrowing techniques is from the old masters from the early days. A lot of things that's been forgotten uh are being rediscovered, yes, rediscovered, but in some sense, uh we're that open mind and looking back and not having everything spelled out ABC, paint by number, there's freedom to it. There's a certain amount of freedom to it, and you can be creative. Uh you're not limited, you haven't been corrupted by an established pattern. Um and I use that term loosely corrupted. You know, I hope you know I I don't mean that uh very strictly, but uh it just means you have the freedom to create, and because most of the time when we refrain from trying something, it's because we've been programmed not to, not to. That's not gonna work, that's not good, that's not uh acceptable. Um but when we if someone doesn't try it, they don't know it can be done, you know. Uh it might can be done. So I've spent a lot of my career uh trying things, attempting things, and yeah, I've failed a few times, and some things I probably realize that that is a failure, it's not gonna work. That's a bad idea, but some of my ideas work. Crazy, some of them. It seems crazy, and I like to laugh about it because I get a lot of comments to that effect. It's goofy, you know. That's uh it's it's hilarious to me, but someone has to try these things, but uh kind of back to the point, uh it's important to create and be creative, so you've got to loosen yourself from some of those uh patterns that you've been programmed uh into thinking, ways to to think. And in knife making, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of those pre-programmed thinking uh thoughts that have that that we have to kind of get around to be creative.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yeah. Yeah, and I um I mean again, I I think it it comes kind of down to the the philosophy, right? I mean, and that's I I I try to make a point of mentioning that knives is much about philosophy and uh your I guess your mentality on on how you do knives as it is the actual technique of of doing it. But I'm reminded um Laren Thomas's uh uh book on on Damascus and metal uh metals uh in history, right? Um I uh yeah, we I had him on the uh podcast a few episodes ago. We were talking about his book, and he has a large section that's dedicated to uh the history of Damascus, right? And uh and pattern welded steels. And there's a common theme where there's somebody who understands that there is some point in time in history that this thing had been like done-ish, right? With uh you know woots and uh and everything like that. And then you have this convergence of a of a ton of people that have developed out individual techniques uh for how to get from that ancient uh for forgotten method to where we're at today. But if you like, if we think about that, the butterfly effect of that passion towards revitalizing pattern welded or Damascus steel has really introduced the modern uh knife collector and knife user to knives in a way that uh I don't know if it was present as much in the 1970s. Like everybody I know knows like um knows what a Damascus blade is. Like if you talk about a knife, they want like they have an idea about forged and fire or the forged technique, and they have and they and they think that the the pinnacle of that is a Damascus blade. And I I I think that as we've traveled down this road of revitalizing bladesmithing um in inside of metal metalworking, uh, that a lot of people now like that that's the first thought that they think of. They think that the um a blade should be a forged blade, or it's a you know, the the the perception of value is that it's a forged blade, and Damascus is like the higher um end or higher art form of bladesmithing. And I I just have to I have to wonder, if it wasn't for a bunch of people getting together and trying to figure out Damascus, what would the the landscape of knives look like today? Um and it that that's kind of interesting to me how one passion and one focus um leads to uh a resurgence or repopularization of of uh artistry and and what it's done to our knife industry holistically.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yes, um it definitely uh created a new uh palette, if you will, of for art. Um just just the blade itself or the material itself that the knife is made from, it can have within it its own art, its own set of um uh geometric patterns and colors and textures, and uh so it's just another level in in which uh uh that creates interest in knives. Um yeah, Damascus or pattern welded steel is certainly uh uh another tool in which the knife maker can take advantage of to create interest. Uh it's wonderful, it it really is wonderful, uh, but it's not in my view, it's not of itself um what knife making uh might be about. Uh form and function is takes precedent in my opinion. Um yet uh I I do make Damascus and I like it. Uh but I would I still say that the form and function uh takes precedent uh over over the actual that material. Uh just my thinking, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

No, I mean, but that's um I was thinking back a few questions where um where you were talking about uh uh where we were talking about heritage, right? And I I think that if we if we really think about the role that uh that blacksmiths um in general held in society, it's very utilitarian, right? I mean, even like from p pioneer days, um, we're talking about uh wagon wheels and um and pitchforks and you know shovels, I mean whatever. Everything was utilitarian. And the value system was different, right? I mean, uh black blacksmiths, if they were getting paid a wage, it was either as somewhat in like a tender like money or it was in barter. And I think that the value system has changed over time to purely bartering or uh purely uh uh you know currency, right? But back in the day, you know, you could make something and trade, I don't know, like something else for it, and the value of a person's time was intrinsic uh to what they could trade that time for to survive, right? And uh to me, utility always comes first in tools, because um if it doesn't function, if it doesn't conform to the requirements of utility first, then I think that it loses loses its the its intrinsic value. Um even though something like an art knife looks really good, if it's an art knife that's band-aided together, like it at the at the core of it, it doesn't actually function, then it doesn't hold the same value as something that is well built and is um it's just pushing that envelope of art.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yes, um I I do agree with that. Uh and my leanings, of course, are are toward the practical. Um in fact, uh it's been impressed upon me over the years of of training as a historic blacksmith that practicality was their guide, it was the watchword, uh because uh they weren't, well they they cared how it looked, yeah, sure. There's some artists, and when you look at individual pieces of work, you can tell that uh this this blacksmith cared more about the artistic aspect of this piece. Whereas you look at another one of the same the same tool, same uh piece of hardware, whatever it is, uh this one cared more about the practical aspects of it. And it's very utilitarian in its form, but it functions just fine. So uh that's individual choice. And uh I have my I have my preferences. Um even though I may not make a knife, uh one particular knife uh out of uh Damascus steel, it must, you know, uh there has to be some uh pride in in the way it uh it looks. I'm going to be I've got my particular particulars about how it looks. I'm gonna be very, very careful. Line and flow is everything to me, and that uh that's that's very, very important because it's ergonomic. It uh the term form follows function means something. Uh you can't go so practical, so um utilitarian that it it's it's no longer important how it looks. I I draw a line there. It's gotta look good too.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Yeah, I am I'm reminded of a blacksmith. Um he he made blades too, but uh he was a blacksmith up in uh North Texas area, and his name is uh Will Freire. And uh uh he was talking to me um early on when I was thinking about getting um more into uh forge work about uh what what he would consider sacred geometry or the uh the the function of qubits and proportion, right? So, you know, and uh you can we can follow that all the way back to ancient Egyptian times where qubits um well in biblical times too, but qubits were the the measure of your your appendages and how that relates to function because it follows a natural geometric sequence um that that feels natural, that has utility inside of nature. And I've often like thought about that, like as I look at your work, um, there is something that is is very pleasing to me in your proportions and in the way that you execute um your your lines. And I'm not talking about grind lines and everything. I'm just talking I'm talking about the the holistic uh proportion and aesthetic of your blades. I I don't know what it is exactly about it um that just appeals so intrinsically to me. Like I look at your knives and I'm like that is absolutely what I would consider um a the way that a blade should look. And I again I can't really put a like I I I guess if we measured out your work and did analysis on what you're creating, we would probably find that there is a a similarity to some geometric proportion in it. But I really honestly don't know if we think about the science of knives and the and the uh that the the geometrical component of things as much from a science perspective um yet. Uh, but I I again like I it looks very pleasing to me.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Thank you. Um yeah, I I believe that the we can assign numbers and ratios and equations to these things, and uh they they do for sure, apply. They do, but it's a start, it's just a start of of something deeper. And what's deeper, in my opinion, is the emotional attraction that it has. You know, which it's in our DNA to be to be attracted to certain forms and proportions. So um we we just know, and I'm not trying to be too simplistic about it, but there it's that emotional attraction or the uh what I would like to do when I make a knife is to evoke emotion. Now it may be different from knife to knife, but and some uh, you know, some of them are are not very uh does don't evoke much emotion, I gotta admit that. I mean, every now and then you're gonna have something that's not you're not so happy with. Uh but that's the goal. That is the goal. And the more that the time you spend, the more that you apply your your uh you invest your emotion, your time, your effort, and you go that extra mile to make this as pretty and all the curves just right. They complement one another. You don't all of a sudden, you got all these curves, and then there's a there's a a straight line that just catches your eye that don't belong, you know. Um, I go the effort to to get it all as close to right as I possibly can, you know. That's just that's to my satisfaction. I I do it for because that's the way I want it. I want that to represent my work. Uh so yeah, those proportions are very, very important. And uh, but you know, things that are unless you're building uh a say a building that is actually kind of rectangular, and all the doors are certain proportion, the windows are proportioned, they're all rectangular, they have square corners. Our knives are not made like that, you know, they're all curved, they all have uh gaining uh gaining shapes that that accelerate as it goes covers uh space. And uh you can look at a blade that is forward heavy. If all the curves and lines are correct, it looks good. Then you can have a long sleek blade that is very light toward the tip, getting narrower, tapered, graceful, that also looks good. So proportion, yeah, it plays a part, big part, sure does. Um but those two knives have different purposes. They do. Uh one would be a fighter or a uh the thin the thin, long, long, thin one with a nice taper to it, lighter in the front would be more of a fighter. Uh I'm I'm saying it's leaning that way. The other one would be more of a chopper or a buoy. They're both just equally beautiful, but they have different shapes. And it's all because you're comp the combination of those proportions and curves. If the curves don't complement one another, then you it it will snag your eye. That's what the way I describe it. My eye goes there and I can't get away from it. And uh it's just not it's just not as good as it could be. So I believe in making it as good as it could be.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Yeah. Well, I I in your work, uh, I I honestly think that if if I want to talk about a quintessential piece that you make that shows uh or exhibits your craft as a master bladesmith and what that really means is your X-ray buoy. Um so we take this uh a design concept of the buoy knife, and we turn this into an exhibition of how far you can push proportion and utilitarianism in building an integral knife the way that you do with the X-ray. And I'd like you to explain to our listeners exactly uh what the process is of building your X-ray knife out, and I think that we can talk a little bit more about why that is so exceptional for you to make as a craftsman and how that elevates um your your work to mastery. Okay. I'll do my best.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

First of all, I set myself a very stringent limit. Uh for me to be, I mentioned earlier, for me to be the uh integral part of this process, uh then I have to limit myself to other factors. Uh so I set myself as a limiting factor, one material, only one material, uh allowed myself that. And so for me to make a knife that's comfortable, usable, functional, and uh on par as far as its function and uh usability with any other standard uh knife that we might make or buy, um, for me to do that with one material, that means I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to really go to some uh extreme uh geometry changes when I'm forging. So on top of that, I've got to maintain uh a good balance in the knife, literal balance, as well as visual balance. Um that's that's a hard one to for me to explain, visual balance, but uh it it has to have uh not just proportion and and profile. Profile is pretty easy to explain and easy to see. That's the first thing we see, but uh visual balance. Um let me try this. Um the combination of profile along with proportion, the open area, and the solid area, uh, those are proportionate too. They have they provide visual balance. You see knives that are busy, they have so much uh going on on the blade. It's let's just say it for I'll describe something I think is busy. A Damascus blade, fully engraved guard and handle, then you've got burrow wood and uh lots of no, they maybe have some jewels encrusted in parts of it, but there's so much going on that it becomes busy, in my opinion. I want I want so uh very few elements in a knife, and when I provide those few elements sufficiently, then I say that's that's good, that's enough. That is what it pleases the eye. And I I describe it like this it's the black dress on a beautiful woman. She doesn't need a lot of makeup or jewelry or anything, she's beautiful, dressed simply, if you can see what I'm saying. Um so a knife is that way. You provide the a few basic elements, do them well, do them well, and then it's a it's it's a thing of beauty. Um now let's go back to the x-ray, and how can one piece of steel, how can I impart beauty to that? Well, uh, you know, it might be a matter of opinion, just like a lot of other things. Um, but you can see that I have tried, at least tried to uh give that knife proportion, flow, and of course, when you hold it, then you know whether it's got balance or not, you know. I mean you you you feel it with your handle, your hand, does it does it have hot spots, is it rough, is it, or does it feel like a real knife? I mean, in your hand. So I'm having to answer all those checkpoints. Um answer all those questions and check off all those boxes. So when I'm doing all that with something with so limited of material, it requires so much of me. Uh well that's that's a hard, that's a difficult thing to do. And uh I it took me a while. I mean, it really did. I didn't even know what questions to ask of myself. I just knew that I was fixing to learn something, and it was gonna take me a while. So I yeah, I had quite a scrap pile built up uh and made several mistakes, but when I started seeing it coming together, I also started seeing improvements and some uh also improvements in my process. I had to create a process to make that thing. Uh because if I couldn't repeat it, it was just an accident that I made the first, you know, made a good one, well, that's not really an accomplishment. I had to really create a process that someone else could learn and repeat, and it the results were predictable. So um that's that's a real challenge. I really I can't tell you how much of a challenge it was, but uh I was pretty stubborn and determined to do it. So I I don't know if I've even touched on the real question yet, Darren, but I sure like to expound on it if you can help me.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Yeah, well, I I think it's important for everybody to understand that the the concept of the X-ray knife is to take a a small uh piece of steel and through a a series of processes elongate, fold, uh, and shape the blade to be an a fully integral knife uh from a single material and a single piece of material. And so uh Lynn, what is the dimension? So if we're talking about a buoy knife, what is the the starting point with that piece of steel? Like how many inches by how many inches? Like what's the mass on it and everything?

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Okay, that's a good question. Um for say a 10-inch blade, and overall about 15, 15 and a quarter handle included, um the the starting point or material would be about two and one quarter inch wide by five sixteenths thick by about uh ten inches long. Um four inches of that material would be the handle, and the six inches would be the blade, and it all has to be the geometry has to be extremely changed, and I start with the handle first because it's it's the most difficult thing to make those extreme geometry changes, and uh and after I'm happy that this handle strap, this handle band that goes straight out, I just leave it straight. I don't I don't make the bends until I forge the blade, uh, and then I forg then I make the bends. Uh so that process, uh of course that's a very elementary way of describing the process, but um it can be scaled up or down. So you can make a bigger knife by going with just a little bit bigger starting material, you can make a smaller knife by just scaling it down, but it's all proportionate. So you want a smaller knife, I would say two inch wide instead of two and a quarter, and a quarter inch thick instead of five sixteenths, and uh eight inches long instead of ten inches long. You you follow what I'm saying. So you just scale things down or up depending on the size of the knife that you want to end up with.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Yeah. And I uh I think a pause point here is it you ever everybody listening, you can look on Lynn's uh Instagram and see an illustration of the basic concepts by I believe uh Jeff Fetter had illustrated that in watercolor, right? The process for you.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Yeah. Now he he illustrated the uh the small hunting knife shape of that style knife, the x-ray uh hunter. That's a small one, and I'd say the maximum length on that would be about eight and a half, nine inches. Blades probably four inches, four and a half, maybe. Uh that's that drawing applies to a smaller knife. So, but the big x-ray, I have uh videos on YouTube uh that you know I describe the process and show and share some of the steps and stages of it. I believe you can make that knife uh using the X-ray, or excuse me, using the uh YouTube videos that I have out.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah. Well, so uh it's it's hard, it's hard uh when we we take these um like I've done a lot of research on you and your work, and you've obviously spent a lifetime perfecting this craft. And and for the average listener who doesn't know a lot about your work, it's hard to describe exactly how magnificent the X-ray concept is. But for the sake of uh argument, it's really hard. Like it's um you've taken a concept in forging and it's it's really cheeky. And I I think that's probably the reason why I like the x-ray, is because there's a a certain level of ridiculous comedy that is in taking all of these constraints. Like you've basically given yourself every possible handicap that you could possibly give yourself, apart from not having uh an anvil, a hammer, and a fire, um, to make a blade. You're talking about such a small piece of material that you then have to elongate and shift in so many ways and still make a functional knife. And I think that that's probably um if if I look at what like you make you make very beautiful blades and uh in all things fair and equal, um, I think that those uh those will go down in history as being quintessentially you. But if ever anybody is ever looking at what your magnum opus concept is, it really is the X-ray. Um and I maybe maybe I'm speaking out of turn a little bit here, but it it's when you reach a level of mastery where you say, hmm, like let's play with this. I want to see if I can actually do this with taking a single material um type, a single piece of something, and turning it into a fully functional blade, and also making it beautiful, and also conforming to all of the traditional concepts of proportion, um, and having to deal with all the chaos associated with quenching it and moving it around and everything, like all of those elements, for you to be able to pull off a finished X-ray knife to me shows a level of mastery that is it can only be described as comical. Like it's it's like so far beyond the the normal purview of knife making.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Well, uh thank you for that. Um and and actually uh actually what I was what I'm really wanting to do with this is to is to show the extremes that steel and iron can be moved. The old masters could do it. They could do it. I was trained by, I'm gonna drop a name here, I hope you don't mind. I was trained historic uh historically by Peter Ross. Um he was the master of the shop at Colonial Williamsburg for a number of years. And as good as he is, and I hold him in very high esteem as far as moving metal, uh he told me that if he if someone picked him up and dropped him into the 17th and 18th, 19th century, he would he would just be mediocre as a smith. Uh now as high as I hold him in in regard, uh some of the old masters were were better at moving material. Now we've all heard of Samuel Yellen of Philadelphia acclaim and some of the metal artistry that he is responsible for on some of the architecture around Philadelphia. Um now he could do these things at will and repeat these things. Uh but I guess what my point would be with making the x-ray is that as modern knife makers that claim to forge, do we do as much or as little as possible? Uh can we be more responsible in our forging? Or can we try to be what I consider to be immature in our foraging and do as little as possible and rely on m other mechanisms, machinery, uh, and equipment, modern tooling to do the work that we should be doing. And of course, I know that everything has its exceptions. We may be have our limitations, whether whether we live in the country or downtown in a big city. We cannot take advantage of uh of coal forging. And I'm speaking of it as if that's a big plus. It is to me, but in other people's opinion may differ on that. But um I I believe that uh um that again we have to take responsibility. And if we are wanting to be good smiths, we we just we have to get out there and practice, and we have to set uh we have to create uh projects that require more from us. And yes, that takes time and a hard work. It's hard to it's hard to do that because we're actually in training. And um it's a difficult thing to to really explain, but that's just my goal is to to show what's possible and encourage others to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Yeah. I mean, and I appreciate that. I I think that what whenever I've talked to you, um, I I feel like we always end up talking a lot about philosophy um in knives. And I I we don't live in an in an in an era of uh tribal knowledge as much as we used to, right? Like uh since I think the the modern era of uh communication and the internet, um, you find more and more that society takes information for granted. And uh a perfect example is um there are lots of things in this world that um I I don't feel that I as a parent have equipped my children to do because I've made it really easy on them. And uh for whatever uh faults there are in parenting, um, I I guess I won't be too apologetic in providing a life for my ch my children that is unfettered by uh poverty and difficulty the same way that I grew up. But uh my children have access to information at their fingertips if they have the drive to actually ask those questions and to delve into it, and they don't need to have somebody else do it for them. But I often have to tell them, hey, like, do you want to understand the concepts of how oil has changed or um how to cook something a little bit more complex, or um uh I don't know, um how taxes work or how to balance checkbook or things like that. Um yeah, I could teach them each one of those things, but they have they have so much information available to them that if they spent their entire life just learning the random facts uh that they can on the internet and and qualifying that with a little experience from like a person, that they really wouldn't need a lot of tribal knowledge. Um, they could rely almost holistically on the written and documented word in order to be able to create things. And I think in some ways that that's where we're at as a society, and it it also uh trickles down into knives, where there's it it's not like it used to be in knife making and the craft of of blacksmithing, um, where you had to figure out everything by yourself. And so the natural um question mark um around creation and creating things is something that you have to discover for yourself, but you can read other people's interpretation of what creation is, and I think in a lot of ways we take that for granted that there's so much information out there that we stop seeking just because we feel like the answer has already been found. And I I feel like um what you're saying is that you do have to take responsibility for your own knowledge and for your own experiences in life because that is that that's your personal responsibility. That is the way that you ground yourself to a reality that is natural instead of interpretive from somebody else, right? And you have to be able to seek that out for yourself um and and play with it. Otherwise, how do you know that something is real versus a simulation or truth versus um uh you know a lie? And that's it it can I I can interpret that as being uh not only um applicable in life, but very specifically in knives, because so many, so many people now um just go the route of creating things because it's been done and it's repeatable and they don't have to think too much uh versus really just um having to ask hard questions for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Uh yeah, I see I agree. I agree with that. Um but there's still things uh there's still things to be discovered, and that's that's what my message is, is um while there's a lots and lots of information online and even on YouTube and uh in books and whatever, uh lots and lots of information out there, but I still say there's more discoveries to be made, and we're all unique, we're individuals, and our tastes and our our artistry, uh, it may be subdued and hidden inside of us, but can we tap into it? Can we make it grow? Can we can we make it thrive? And I'd say the only way we can do that is give it an opportunity. We can find a medium, and mine of course is knife making and smithing. Find a medium and explore what's possible and see what we can do. Uh and can we make it our own? Uh I I would I would want my children to know that. That's the message I have for them is you have it in you. Just make it thrive, you know. Cultivate it. Watch it grow.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Yeah and um I I I think that we get cocky uh with thinking that everything is documented on the internet. Um and a perfect example of that and kind of a segue into uh the next area I want to talk about is um Neil Ponchard um and I have become friends over the last few months, especially um me launching this podcast and talking through things and I actually had him on as a guest and um he and I were talking about uh about the historical side of pocket knives and the fact that there are references that he has to the historic representation of pocket knives that you would never find on the internet because nothing's been documented. They're all in like ephemera um like magazines or articles of some sort or obtuse references um and the actual physical representation of those pocket knives in uh the form of a you know a collection and we were talking about that and also his relationship with uh Mark Zelesky um of knife magazine and uh trying to make sure that that is documented in some form and his form has been uh trying to bring that to print as well as uh his his historical representation in the Catchbit show podcast um but the the segue into that is I am I'm aware that you and Mark are part of a consortium for um the historical representation of of uh buoy knives um and specifically the origins and the cultivation of of uh what the historic record shows uh for buoy knives and can you talk a little bit more about what you guys are doing and also uh the the reopening of the uh the museum in Arkansas and and a little bit i i I know that's a kind of a compound question but I kind of want to first talk about what you guys are doing uh with um with mark and his consortium and then I think that we could step into uh the museum and how that kind of represents that work.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

Okay. Mark and I, along with uh a few select others that are deeply interested in uh these knives and how they're made and uh what what we really want to do is to create a database by which um some of these knives can be um authenticated. So we are gathering information of certain genre of knives say let's just say for instance um coffin handle buoy knives uh and of course james black being sort of the the center of that uh subject uh coffin handle buoy knives we we what we want to do is create a database by which we can compare uh knives that are discovered or that comes from people's collections their attics their um their family uh estates um they show up and can can we authenticate that knife as being uh what it being authent uh an authentic James Black knife let's say um and there's there's hardly there's hardly an end to the different antique knives uh genres uh or subgenres I suppose subcategories uh you've got the California knives you've got the Louisiana knives you've got the the one of the the made by a blacksmith uh and and you've got the Sheffield knives as we mentioned earlier uh knives from New York Philadelphia different parts of this country as well as um Sheffield let's just say Sheffield there there's a bunch but let's just stop there um what we're trying to do is by observation and testing we're trying to gather data and get it written down uh so if we know let's just say we know a little bit about James Black's work we are gathering data on his uh common features of between the knives uh now he didn't have a big body of work um so uh it's his his work is is uh it's often copied but uh and it's often counterfeited um but what we want to do is be able to say the a particular knife yes that we think that's authentic or we think that one is a a reproduction that is made to look like James Black's work.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

So it this takes time this is going to take time and we're kind of getting started on that and we're gonna have a talk and a discussion question and answer this coming Saturday at the Historic Arkansas Museum in which Mark and myself and a couple others are going to be answering questions and one of the things that we want to stress and emphasize is that as knives become collectible their value goes up and the possibility that they're going to be uh counterfeited or faked for nefarious reasons that possibility increases as well so we uh as as a knife maker um from my perspective um I want to share my views on what a knife maker can do to prevent that from happening with his work say for instance I'm making a re reproduction uh James Black style knife excuse me um what can I do to ensure that that knife will never be uh passed off as a uh an authentic James Black knife so those are kind of things we're gonna talk about um in our testing we're we're doing lots of different things it's non-destructive of course testing to uh to just gather the information that we need the basic information uh what's this material made what what is this part made of uh is does it fit within the the decade that it purports to to have been made um from what we know about the material from that time period does it fit within that is can it be authentic and if we get enough facts and enough information then we check off enough boxes um then we can authenticate it or not so does that kind of help you to understand a little bit about what we're doing I I'd be glad to try to answer more questions of course yeah I know no I think so I mean uh if anybody grew up in the era of antiques road show um they would know that there is there's anecdotal evidence or family history of things collected and then there is the the references uh certificates of authenticity or whatever that establishes provenance yeah uh to a piece and what you're trying to do is be able to um in some way use evidences to build a provenance around uh James Black's work and to also uh establish um uh hallmarks so that way there's some sort of trail to be able to associate a value with a finding right because I mean I I I I really appreciate uh the fact that you guys are doing that because I don't feel that that is being done with buoy knives by anybody else um in the world and I might be naive in that sense uh but I I there is no one right now like I I'm gonna take a step back and say I don't know that there's a lot of people that really understand the difference between the historical reference and origin of the buoy knife in comparison to all of the conjecture and lore that has occurred with the buoy knife to date. And so what you guys have done is I I think in the modern lexicon of knife making it's been pretty well established where the buoy knife originated, how it was used, uh James Black as the original blacksmith and uh a a certain number of of pieces that represent uh uh his work and where that came from. But now you're taking this step further and saying um for all other uh knives uh buoy-esque knives um in that period or after this is a reference point for us to be able to provide provenance so that way um uh collectors are not getting scammed as well as uh being able to provide historical reference that we just otherwise wouldn't have had if you guys didn't collect it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:17

Yes uh it's uh there's several levels of conversation in on this subject several uh the value is uh to me the value of those knives are it's interesting to me but they're out of my reach so I have to push that aside and uh think more about how its construction uh is and what techniques that either Mr. Black or whoever made this knife and those are we find commonalities between them so if we we suspect that we have two or three knives made by the same maker is there anything in common with them those are the the first things we ask and and we observe and we answer that question. Then we start looking at the materials are they the same materials uh do we have any documentation uh on that maker did he have uh any leanings toward using certain materials if he did are these materials on these knives you know it's that simple uh approach to start with and then we dig deeper now I gotta say that uh as far as legend and lore uh we don't know for sure that James Black made the original Bowie knife now we we do know that the the name comes from Jim Bowie of course I mean it's it's a nickname it's a name that's now a household word but uh we we there's no real documentation that of which knife he used in this particular incident um there was other knife makers that were uh that that may have been their primary job may have been blacksmith uh in fact uh James Black was a blacksmith but he also made knives so there were other people that had a very similar circ set of circumstances um there's other genre of knives uh that I'm sure James Black owned more than one knife uh excuse me Jim Bowie owned more than one knife and uh other people own more than one I do certainly uh so it's not an it wouldn't have been uncommon even back then for for a famous person to own more than one knife and made by different people different makers um and so it it gets confusing when when uh a maker imitates someone else is someone else's work uh at some point when James Black's work became notable uh he became copied his work was copied so knowing the difference between a copy and his original work that could be important when it comes to placing value on it um and it's the same with the other uh categories of knives Sheffield knives uh california knives and the others we mentioned earlier those those all need to be authenticated and on top of all that James Black as with some of the uh blacksmiths they didn't mark their work in the in a uh normal way of marking with their name they didn't stamp their name on their work so uh it's our uh Mark Zillesky myself and a few others in our group uh it's our uh job our goal and our task to find common features and try to use uh I hate I hesitate to use the the term forensics but look at evidence to see if we can determine if the same hands made this piece as another that looks very similar.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:38

Uh so yeah it's an ongoing uh developing skill and um science I guess i if you will uh that we're trying to develop and we're we're making progress and we're we're also getting uh we're getting uh the confidence from some of the museums and from some of the uh agencies and institutions that own some of these very important historic knives so to where we can study them and uh so that's very gratifying to know that we're we're getting their confidence so we can go and observe and handle and study the knives that have spent most of their the last 100 years behind glass you know yeah and isn't that uh it's very interesting to me because it's uh it it's like understand I I get the uh the allure for a museum because you have these uh historical representations or ex uh exhibit items and they wonder whether they actually have a Rembrandt or whether it's a reproduction and there's nothing really there um currently that uh to tell you know whether it came from where it was supposed to or not. And that that that same concept exists in a lot of other forms of art but very much less in knives. And I um I appreciate the work that you guys are doing because I I do feel that um in whatever capacity you guys are actually able to discover these things um it'll be instrumental in being able to provide some level of provenance for um buoy knives holistically you know obviously a lot easier to tell with uh Sheffield buoys uh because they you know being in Sheffield they had hallmarks and things that gave some like level of um origin and time but for the early Americana of buoy knives um and that that era of bladesmithing uh there's really not a lot of data so I know that um I alluded to this uh earlier but you there's an actual uh um exhibition that you guys have in the museum up there um that showcases buoy knives as part of Arkansas's history and I'd like you to be able to talk a little bit more about that and what you guys are doing on the uh you said the 17th of this month in re reopening uh that can you talk a little bit more about the museum holistically uh the exhibition and everything and kind of what you guys are doing there yes um the new exhibit is going to stress Arkansas makers yet there will be uh there will be exhibit and information and some of this is going to be new like in new format for instance uh touchscreen um kiosk to where you can go and look at the uh American Bladesmith Society Hall of Fame find out some of the history of the formation of the American Bladesmith Society um there will be examples of uh James Black's work the museum houses three uh of ones three knives that are we're certain were made by uh James Black one of them is the pivotal knife of his body of work in in that it has provenance it has written provenance and history uh that date from that period so it it's pivotal so you can see that that knife being uh this more or less the center of the of uh his body of work that every everything else compares to that knife uh but but those knives are there in the exhibit the exhibit takes on a new color scheme that matches the uh the book uh the bowie knife in america uh sure defense the bowie knife in America uh you've probably seen or heard of that book it was produced by the Historic Arkansas Museum I think it was uh in 2016 2014 or 2016 time is getting by so quick now I've kind of lost track but uh it has a new color theme it has a new um uh sort of a new upgraded purpose it's gonna stress Arkansas makers and I'm not talking about just established uh old guys like myself and Jerry Fisk and J.R.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:46

Cook but there's gonna be some of the younger guys that are in Arkansas that are coming on and some of their work's going to be um exhibited uh and it's just to show that knife making still alive the the forged blade is still something that Arkansas is stressing and encouraging and and and uh the the teaching still goes on and the learning still goes on um so uh it it's gonna be new I mean I haven't seen it myself it's it's brand new so I mean while I have uh some input on uh you know they'll ask me questions I they consult with me on some things I haven't literally laid eyes on the new exhibit yet so it's gonna be all new to me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:37

Yeah I think that'll be pretty exciting especially on the back of you being awarded the Arkansas Living Treasure Award for twenty twenty three which uh gr congratulations by the way on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:49

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

Um can you describe a little bit more about the Arkansas Living Treasure Award and the significance of that yeah um every year

SPEAKER_01 1:28:00

The Arkansas Arts Council, they try to uh look at artists around the state of Arkansas and they uh invite them to uh to be nominated uh uh for for the award. And for 2023, uh I was I was nominated uh by Peter Bleed and by Tim Richardson. These are my dear friends who uh thought that they they think enough of of me and my work and uh our time together in the blacksmith shop that they they uh went this great effort to um to help me with that. I mean, I I left alone, you know, I mean I'm the kind of person that may may or may not um go to that kind of effort. But this is I have them to think. I do have them to think. They went to a lot of effort, and of course I've I had professional photos of my work. I still got some uh examples of knives that I have that were available to show to a jury, and um and I was selected, and I believe that uh there were uh people that do um not just pottery, but woodworking and any other craft that is uh uh grounded to history. I mean, when you when you look at all the different crafts that are nominated and apply, um it's it's a great honor. It it really is a great honor that my uh making of a knife can be considered an art form and be worthy of uh of that award. It's it's really humbling and a great honor for me. I really uh owe them a lot for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:07

Yeah, so since since 2002, the Arkansas Arts Council has recognized uh living treasures and the it go like the breadth of of artisans goes from like stained stained glass to quilts to fiddle making, basket making, uh pottery, chair making, log cabin construction, egg art. You know, like we're talking about when it comes to um artistry holistically, there's a lot of competition that spans a very wide breadth of potential um crafts. And I believe that uh James James Cook received the award in 2007. And I I and what I see here is that over the last um what are we talking here, 21 years of awards, bladesmithing has been represented twice, and it's by you and James Cook, and that's it. And that seems to me pretty significant that bladesmithing has received uh the attention as many times as it has um in Arkansas. And uh I I definitely would be proud of that. It seems it seems like uh you know in in the norm in the lexicon of of of you know culture uh that bladesmithing and knife making is is being uh acknowledged is a a pretty big deal in being able to push that uh that needle forward. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:39

I agree. It's it's uh it's a wonderful thing. Uh I'm really pleased to be a part of it, and I really appreciate the Arts Council and that program for the Arkansas Living Treasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:54

Yeah, but that's not that's not the sum total of your accolades either. I mean, I uh for several years now you've been teaching classes at uh Blade Show in Atlanta, correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:05

I have taught a few uh classes and did some lectures there in Atlanta. Uh primarily my teaching is centered here in Arkansas. I teach at the University of Arkansas at Hope and Texarna. Um I teach here in my own shop. I teach at the New England School of Metalwork and other places, of course. Um but um yeah, it's when it comes to bladesmithing, uh I kind of uh get around, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:41

Yeah. Uh um can you uh correct me on some history when it comes to the uh James Black uh um school of of bladesmithing or blacksmithing? Like I I've I've seen uh a decent amount of that come up uh here and there, but I really uh I don't understand um when this when the school is created and its uh significance in in the world of of blacksmithing and bladesmithing. Can you talk a little bit more about that for me?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:12

Yeah, the actual school uh property uh was once uh housed housing the American Bladesmith Society, the Bill Moran School of Bladesmithing, and uh about 2018 or so, 2019, somewhere along in there, um the American Bladesmith Society moved entirely to the Texas Canada College. Um and uh so the state of Arkansas uh decided to go ahead and open up this James Black School, uh which is uh of historic trades, bladesmithing in historic trades. Um and so I'm an instructor there. I've got a duck coming through, so excuse that noise.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:13

I uh well it's yeah, it's interesting to me. I uh who who would have thought that you could get a more formal education uh through not just metallurgy or metal working, but specifically um focusing on uh craft like like bladesmithing. And that to me is really cool. I uh I feel like um there's no there's no situation where I I feel like in in knives that it's like the those were the good old days. Like we are living in the good old days, we're living in the uh epicenter of um the resurgence of knives um as art. Um and it's actually interesting to me that there is this um there's this uh other pillar of knives that like some society looks like as weapons. Um at the same time, it's getting a lot of acknowledgement as art and as utility, like as tool from a heritage perspective. I'm interested to know how in the future that'll unfold where um as knives become more and more part of this heritage um uh conversation, um, how legislation and how the public uh view of knives might change from just being weaponry um or banned uh uh subjects online uh to actually embracing uh their original form and utility.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:48

Yeah, it's gonna be hard to say. Um all I can say is uh you know, we treat it as a normal thing here. We talk about it, and uh we view it as an uh an art form, a point of history, and uh it's part of Arkansas's history, and right now it's recognized as such. And the uh we have a festival called the James Black Festival. We've had two of them, and the third one is will be in the spring of 2024, and it's where all things James Black and history about knives will be discussed and shown. And everything from a cutting competition to some of the original knives being shown in the historic courthouse. Um they're in old Washington, Arkansas, historic Washington, Arkansas. By the way, the entire town is a state park. So most of the structures, buildings, if they're not actually old and historic and uh refurbished and redone in their original condition, then uh uh then they're um they all support the the idea of it being a state park. You know, there's uh offices and administration buildings, and there's uh there's uh a place for us to have a a knife show where we can actually knife makers can purchase a table and sell their work. Uh it's it's a full weekend of everything about knives, and uh it's it's it's a wonderful place to go. And you can carry a buoy knife on your side, no one will think twice about it. Even children, I don't mean to say they have functioning knives, they have wooden mock-up of knives that they give give away to children and little balloons shaped like a buoy knife, uh uh cookies shaped like a buoy knife. Uh we have forging competitions, uh the the cutting competitions. I mean, that's so much fun. By the way, there's gonna be a cutting competition uh Saturday on the 17th. Um it will be MC'd by Jerry Fisk. And there will be, I think, upwards of 12 to 14 contestants. The require requirements are that they make their own knife. Of course, safety is paramount, but it it's a lot of fun, and you learn a lot from watching and from participating in these competitions.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:35

Yeah, I think that's really cool. Um, I I know as we wind down uh this interview, um, that I would like to ask uh kind of my final question, and that's um I I feel like you've already provided a lot of value uh to makers in the artistry and and uh aesthetic and function of knives, but I have to ask if there's like a a single or a few uh words of advice that you have for the next generation um uh and and um maybe ways that they can uh push themselves or or elevate their their their selves or you know, things like that. Is there is there something that you know for a new maker that you would advise to get um get to a place where they can kind of start discovering themselves? And do you have any advice for like some some of us who've been in the industry for a while? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:33

The the practical side of things, the financial investment, invest in yourself, invest in your education. Before you purchase a lot of equipment, invest in yourself with your training, take classes, take courses, and uh go to the best, the best that you can uh afford. Go to the classes with the best instructors, with the best instructors, because that's where you're gonna learn. Uh and you're gonna grow. If you if you uh if you have your own group that you hang out with, that's good. Uh you can compare notes and compare your work, but if that's all you hang out with, you're not gonna grow very much. You're gonna plateau quick. So always hang out with and learn from people that are a lot better than you, that have more new ideas, more new techniques. Go to those and hang out with those. That's where you're gonna learn the most. And uh and don't get bogged down in politics or offended by uh the things that are common to groups and to different clubs. Um but just go to the best and learn from them and uh invest in yourself. Those are the things that I would advise.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:01

Well, yeah, and I I think that that applies to everyone, right? Because uh even I I think that I've I've uh learned knives in such isolation that now I really think more about introducing myself to um the mentorship of other makers and actually going to their shops or going to classes and uh trying to rediscover um different ways um to to make knives and to uh push myself. But I don't know if I actually I don't I don't know if I knew what kind of questions to ask until now. Um even seven years in, it's like this this um knives are kind of like confusing to me because it's one of those areas that there are so many uh sub-niches um of focus that I really don't know if I knew what questions to ask and what avenue to go down until even now. And so uh for me, I'm I'm actually interested in uh kind of curating my education more uh and being able to uh find those around me that I really want to pursue this this kind of uh um work versus that. Um so I I think it the earlier you can figure out what direction you want to take, the uh the easier it is to decide on what kind of education you think that you'll need to accomplish that goal. So don't maybe don't spend uh seven years like me uh fiddling around with knives before you decide on uh what kind of direction you want to take. The earlier you can figure that out, the more effective you'll be in being able to find people to educate you, I assume.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:40

That's right. At first you're gonna you can't help but imitate others. So you you have no foundation, but that will be your foundation. And uh sooner or later, hopefully sooner, you'll develop your own taste and style and uh start to actually create something that's uniquely yours, uh, that that uh is recognized as being yours and yours alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:11

Well, I really appreciate those words of advice, and I I really um appreciate your uh extended time uh being able to talk to me and just uh you know allow me to pick your brain. Um it's been an absolute pleasure. And um uh for anybody who is interested in Lynn's work, uh you know, look online. Um there's you know he's represented in many different uh websites, and you can meet him in person and talk to him. He's a really cool guy. Um and Lynn, again, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:42

Well, you're very welcome, Aaron. Uh, wish everybody the best, and uh and I hope to see you soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:49

All right, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved and God blessed.