SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about anything and everything knife. Thank you for listening to the Good Old Blades podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I am joined by special guest, David Nemerson. I followed Dave's work uh on uh online in Instagram and more recently Facebook for quite a while, and he's an avid uh pocket knife collector as well as other things. And I really wanted to get him on the show to pick his brain a little bit more about what collectors are looking for and uh ask him about certain aesthetics and things like that, and just like generally uh allow him to represent a little bit of the collector's market for us. Uh so thanks uh Dave. I really appreciate you joining.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

My pleasure, thank you, Aaron.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

So you operate every Dave Carey on Instagram, right? And uh and on Facebook, but I guess Facebook uh actually has your full name on there, correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

And um where uh I guess uh it'd probably be best to start with like introducing yourself. Like tell tell us what you want about your background, um, where you come from, like what got you into collecting, things like that first, and then we can start uh getting into some of the more uh intricate questions I have for you, okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Sounds good. Um yeah, I grew up in New York, Long Island. Uh I lived there until I was about 23, and then I moved to South Florida, where I live for about 10 years, and five years ago moved up to New Hampshire with my wife and daughter. Um, my daughter is turning nine this summer. Her name's Lita and my wife Emily. We're pretty tight crew here. Um kind of live in a small town in New Hampshire with a little bit of property, and it's kind of a quiet life. Um, I work in tech, so all of my hobbies are outside of that. And I think that's kind of what got me into a collector mindset over probably like the last 10 years. I wasn't always a collector. In fact, growing up, I was into technology and video games and you know, building computers and that sort of thing. And I think the more time I spent around technology professionally, the more my interest in sort of mechanical and analog hobbies grew. Um, and that is really what brought me to pocket knives. In fact, when I was it was a it was a birthday was coming up, and I decided I want to treat myself to a pocket knife. I always had Swiss Army knives growing up and always thought they were cool, but I hadn't bought one for myself in a long time. So, you know, I kind of started as you do when you're researching a new hobby with Instagram and YouTube videos, and you know, I bought a benchmade, uh what do you call it? Anyway, I bought a benchmade, and it was cool and I was happy, and at that point it was sort of already too late. I was already, okay, Spider Co. Okay, what else is out there? And you know, similar to most collectors, I kind of kept chasing, okay, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? How can I learn more and more? And eventually that turned into production slip joints with like Great Eastern Cutlery, and eventually that turned into you know higher-end production knives like Chris Reeves knives, and then custom slip joints was sort of my entry into that space of sort of handmade, hand-finished knives, and that was really what ultimately spoke to me. Um, I think you know, for someone who has a broad interest in hobbies, I always really respected people who commit their skills and and arguably life at times to one particular thing. Um that's just not who I am, and I don't think I'll ever be that way. Um, but I have a great admiration for people who do. So being able to collect and enjoy sort of the the product of those people's passions and skills and appreciate them is I think what really got me hooked, and that's kind of what bleeds into my other hobbies. Um things like design aesthetic and fit and finish and uh a choice of materials um are the things that get me usually interested in in a maker or product, but getting to see the quality of the work and uh appreciate the the thoughtfulness that goes into them uh is what ultimately like gets me really excited and and sort of opened up the world of like higher-end handmade stuff. Um so yeah, I just have like a deep respect and appreciation for people who put in you know those 10,000 plus hours, and you know, as someone who just gets to appreciate that stuff and and you know, understand at least as much as I can about the effort that goes into that and the joy of you know putting one of those pocket knives in my pocket for the day, uh and enjoying it is it's it's to me it's like collecting art. Um obviously there's a a function to it. I'm not no afraid to use most of my pocket knives. Um, but I would say the hobby where I get to really use my knives is kitchen knives. So I'm also into like Japanese kitchen knives specifically, and I enjoy cooking, that's a passion of mine. So those are the knives that get used and get sharpened and you know get handled the most by me. But I mean, certainly there isn't a day that goes by where I'm not throwing a pocket knife in my pocket for the day.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah, that's super cool. Um so when it comes to um pocket knife specifically, uh you're in the vein of slip joints, right? Or spring knives. Uh, do you collect any lockbacks or do any other um um I guess mechanism collecting addition with that, like switchblades or automatics or things, or like it is it uh is is it primarily uh slip joints?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I definitely have a couple lockbacks in my collection, and um I definitely have some higher end like modern knives, frame locks and that, and liner locks and that sort of thing. Um but I would say over time as knives have come and gone, the slip joints are typically the ones that stay. Uh there's just something about them. I I I think that's the thing I probably know the most about. Um they're the makers that I've built the strongest relationships over the years. And in the past, when I've you know had to sell some knives, it is usually those that are the last to go. Um I think in general, too, for me, my hobbies and my taste usually exceeds my budget. So there's a part of the hobby of sort of the buying and selling and trading piece that I actually really enjoy with all my hobbies, arguably just as much as collecting. Um, I love the haunt and you know, trying to find a good deal and getting to enjoy something that I might not necessarily get to enjoy otherwise. So a part of my approach to collecting is sort of an equity approach, um, just because I can't, I would if I could, you know, buy up every single knife that I fall in love with and not necessarily think about it from you know that standpoint, but the reality is I can't. So um I've definitely had to keep that in mind as I go. But to be honest, I I really enjoy that part of any hobby. Um, I like going to buy a new car. I like you know that process. I know some people hate it, uh, but for me, I really always enjoy the the negotiation and the hunt.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah. So um do you have like a top list of of uh slip makers that you uh that you look for? Is there something is there something that whose work is like always on your radar? Or um how how like what's this actual selection process that you go through when you're evaluating makers to invest in for um you know their their wares?

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yeah. I think that you know, over the last probably six or seven years, which is how long I've been seriously collecting handmade slip joints, um that's been really the joy getting to find and explore different makers, getting to see them at shows or purchase them or trade for them and understand you know what I do like and what I'm drawn to. I think like everybody in the knife community, that it's only a matter of time until you build some relationships with other collectors and other makers, and that starts to influence who you collect. Um, so you know, at this point in my collecting, I definitely have cooled off pretty substantially. There was a few years where I was buying and selling pretty aggressively and collecting pretty aggressively, really just so that I could experience as much as possible. So I think the dust kind of settled around a few things. Um, makers that I built relationships with that you know I consider friends, uh wanting to support them. And then I think makers that represent a specific thing that I really enjoy. I try and collect sort of what would be like the quintessential pattern or material from that specific maker. Um and with slip joints, I definitely lean more towards like traditional makers for the most part. Um, to me, you know, the Tony and Rispos, um Don Hansen, Tom Plopper, Ricardo Romano, um Enrique Peña, some of you know the sort of pre-production Enrique Peña era knives. To me, that's like the quintessential stuff, you know, and these are all makers who have been really kind to me during my time collecting, um, have been generous with their with their time and their conversation, and you know, their work, I think, all falls under the umbrella of like top-notch fit and finish and execution. And they're all makers that you know I think are respected by a majority of collectors and other makers. Um, and I think ultimately what draws me to a particular knife, wanting to collect it and keep it, is if it represents that maker. Um, so you know, for example, for me, like uh, you know, a Tony Bowes back pocket or Warncliffe trapper two blade with you know some some stag or bone. Um, you know, what's more quintessential traditional pocket knife than that? Um, you know, Don Hansen, I would want it to have, you know, his W-2 steel or his Damascus that he, you know, that he creates. Um uh Eugene Shadley, I'd want a multi-blade. I'm looking over my shoulder at like what's in my collection. And I think they all represent the makers, like as like this is the knife that represents that maker, right? Um, so I think at this point that's like what has stayed in my collection. Um and that's really what I'm drawn to now. I don't think, to be honest, there's like a lot of makers that I go, oh, if this were to pop up, I would I would aggressively go after it. Um I'm pretty satisfied with where my collection is at. I've had you know sort of multiple iterations where a lot has come in and a lot has gone, and what has is left um have been around now for a while, or at least represent like a cool story or a cool moment in my time collecting?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Sure. Um so when it comes to material choices, uh how how important is the material choice in addition with the pattern to you? Like uh do you have a specific aesthetic where you're like mammoth, stag, westing house, something like that, or is there like are those those things that speak to you specifically, or is it kind of just like an an amalgamation of all those things when it comes up?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

I mean, I definitely have my preference, and for a long time it was vintage or Westinghouse micarta or or a bus. Like I love that stuff. Um I love the history, the sort of Americana to it, um, and it's just a great handle material. Um, of course, like the patina that develops and is showcased by the contouring on the handles. Um and as I'm looking over here, all of my knives right now are some sort of older micarta, um, with the exception of a Pearl five-blade knife from Gene Shadeley and a Mammoth two-blade worn cliff trapper from Don Hansen. Um, I love micarta. I'm a sucker for it. Um but I also like those materials, so I thought for me and my collection it was appropriate to have you know those represented. I love the way Stag looks, I love the way some of these other materials look. I certainly don't take issue with them. I think it's personal preference, and that's just what I lean towards and have sort of grown to know more about and and you know appreciate uh appreciate them, especially from the specific makers like this Warncliffe trapper from Don, which just he uses the old W-2 stock and you know these old mammoth covers are just it all comes together, and it's just one of those things where you know the the sum of the parts is equal to more than a toll, if I'm saying that correctly, you know what I'm saying? Um but I also like when a maker is represented in their work, and you know, if I'm working on a build, one of the first things I'll I'll say is, hey, this is kind of what I have in mind, but I want to give you the creative freedom as the maker to make something you're really excited about and something you're proud of. And I think that's how you end up with something just that much more special and representative.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Do you think um it well, it's interesting to me to talk to you about uh you know your collecting journey, right? Because it seems like so you've slowed down, you were very aggressive at first, you slowed down, you kind of pick and choose like the disciples of Christ now. And I'm interested to know, is uh is are new makers on your radar at all, or are you really looking for like the established maker that kind of fits into what your collection aesthetic is?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

That's a great question. You know, with I think with traditional pocket knives and slip joints, like they the makers that I think will sort of go down as the makers, and I'll just you know continue to use Tony Bose as as the example for that, just because you know he has uh arguably single-handedly like resurrected these patterns and mastered them and shared those patterns with others, and you know, having a knife from him, like that's it, right? Like that is that is the the grail, so to speak, of that sort of knife, right? Like if you've gone as deep as you can possibly go learning about custom slip joints, and I use the term slip joint to sort of encompass all you know these traditional style knives, um, like that's it, you know. That that's the one. If you're only gonna have one, you know, if you were gonna come out of collecting and you've had a thousand knives and you sell them all off, that's what you're gonna have left more than more than likely, you know. Um so I think with newer slip joint makers, to be fair, yeah. I guess I don't really dig in as much as maybe keeping my eye on like newer um modern knife makers because I feel like there's that's where I appreciate the innovation. I think with traditional knives, I appreciate the tradition and the execution. Um whereas with modern knives, I I appreciate, you know, okay, someone's sort of working a new uh locking mechanism, or you know, they're getting crazy with inlays or you know, pivot designs. Like, okay, that that can get me excited because with things I haven't seen before, but when it comes to slip joints, like for the most part, I like the traditional stuff, so that's kind of where I look. You know, it's like someone who collects muscle cars from the 60s and 70s, you know. Um, they may go, oh, you know, Ford came out with a new Mustang. Performance numbers are impressive, and you know, it has air-conditioned seats and you know, car play or whatever. Um, and they can appreciate that and and go, that you know, okay, that's cool, but that's not what they're gonna buy, you know. Um, and I think that's how I am with traditional knives. Like, I guess I'm a purist. That's not to say I don't have like more modern knife makers that I do appreciate. Like Jared Osier comes to mind. I think you know, when it comes to a modern twist on those style of knives, I think he does it well. He makes as good of a slip joint as anybody. Um, and I appreciate you know the innovation and creativity that he brings to it. Um, but it's to me, it's because the quality is still there. There's not a sacrifice in quality to enjoy sort of the the modern perspective he puts on it. Um, so I I wouldn't say I'm like, I don't want to see new makers or anything like that, and and something could jump out. Um, but I wouldn't say I'm actively like following newer slip joint makers Instagrams. Um, not to say I'm not supporting and cheering for them when I see them pop up in like certain Facebook groups and stuff, but it it's not necessarily something I'm gonna be pursuing as a collector.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Sure. Well, and um I I just I speak personally. Um so I I always uh got into fixed blades as many, many makers do initially. And um, you know, there's there's a a place and time for making fixed plates, but I wanted a different challenge, right? And so my goal was to uh get into traditional slip joints uh because I really I I I grew up with pocket knives um and my grandfather had a pretty decent pocket knife collection. In fact, I I don't think there was any male figure in my life that was in like World War II, Vietnam or something like that that did that did not use pocket knives um regularly around me. And so I was like, well, that's what I want to do. Like I'm gonna pay homage to my grandfather and that experience I had with him, but I'm going to get into them. But I will be honest in saying that like it's a tough market to break into as a maker. Um it's a you know who who's interested in collecting things, like what what are you making that sells and so on and so forth? Because you know, like you have in a in a standard slip joint, for instance, you have probably more time than in uh in a fixed blade, even if you're doing fairly intricate work in a fixed blade. And so like when with that time investment and everything, you kind of want to be able to make something that sells, and that is a it's it's a pretty difficult market right now, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, I mean that's uh you know, I think back to when I first started exploring custom traditional knives, and I think when someone makes that jump as a knife collector, because I I think it's fair to say that like for the most part, now there certainly are people I'm sure that grew up with case knives, and the next logical step is to explore like handmade or custom traditional knives, but I think for most people that find custom slip joints or even higher-end production slip joints, it's because they got into pocket knives, you know, similar to me, where you know, they got into production knives and they go, Oh, it'd be cool to have a slip joint, it'd be cool to have that for a wedding, or you know, if I'm wearing shorts, or it's a more formal event or whatever. And then when then when they pivot to go explore that market, I think you're kind of faced with three things you're faced with, like production slip joints, and that market has grown for sure. Um the super high-end or or you know, the well-revered makers that have been around forever, and whoever the up-and-coming makers are. So I think those up-and-coming makers definitely fill a niche of like these are accessible knives to someone who wants to make that jump from pocket knives to you know Great Eastern Cutlery to you know uh a handmade slip joint that isn't that hard to get, you know, or a maker that they can reach out to and and get an order in and not wait five years or not get responded to in a in a message. And I think it's hard to get a lot of these guys to make you an eye of their their books are either closed or a a ways out, you know, secondary pricing on them is inaccessible to some people. So I think there is certainly a place for up-and-coming makers or makers that are making the switch from making fixed blades or frame locks to exploring slip joints, but I I think slip joints already probably make up one of the smallest segments of knife collecting as it is, and knife collecting as a whole isn't a huge industry. Um, so it's sort of a niche of a niche, and then a niche of that niche for custom handmade stuff. So uh I I don't envy your your quest to uh to you know continue to break through or or go deeper as a maker in that. I respect it wholeheartedly. You know, there are certain there are knife makers that I respect greatly that have really just started making slip joints. Uh, an example of that, I guess, would be Michael Questenberry. We got to A blade show a couple years ago. Here is a top of his game world-class knife maker. And you know, he starts making slip joints, right? So there's clearly respect for the the style of knife making. I think we know that the effort to make a great slip joint is it's a it's like an honorary thing because, like you said, the investment in time, I think to do it right, is definitely more than a lot of other styles of knives for a market that's already very small, you know. So obviously I'm excited when I see Michael Cresenberry make a slip joint um and you know use his Damascus in that uh and use his his skills, his his finishing skills, and all the years of expertise apply it to the thing that I really nerd out on. Like so I think there's definitely a place for me to like backtrack a little bit and say there are moments where sure like I'm excited to see that or you know would would make that purchase given the opportunity. Um but I also think to your point, like there's makers who are uh who are creating slip joint knives at a that's sort of you know that five to eight hundred dollar price point as opposed to that eight hundred plus plus plus price point that you can't even get your hands on. And there's there's certainly people that want that, and they uh are gonna collect yours and others' works because uh it's gonna be how they get access to it, right? Um and as you and other makers continue to make knives and perfect that craft, then you will have your uh you will have your followers, right? And the people you've built relationships who are going to seek out and order knives from you. So I don't think it's impossible, but like I said, I mean it's already such a small niche that uh I definitely respect anyone who decides to take the dive.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Yeah. So I mean uh it's interesting because you know, as makers, and and this is something that's probably uh not really discussed too much, but makers spend a lot of time trying to figure out what collectors are looking for, right? It's like you know, there's this kind of Rolodex of like these are all the collectors in the market, and this one likes Stag, and that one really likes Westinghouse, especially the rare ones, and this this one likes these specific uh uh models uh or patterns, right? And you just gotta kind of make it and toss it out there and see which one of those collectors actually uh picks it up, right? But then there's like there's uh subcategories of that where I've I've heard uh some makers talk about like in the in the economy that we're in right now, um new makers or up-and-coming makers in a specific thing like you know, slip joints like I am, um have a harder time competing against established makers that are doing full-time work that um you know where you see their stuff all the time because they really have to hustle into this economy. Like they're full-time knife makers. It uh it hurts them if they can't make the bills, right? And so there's like there's all this like conjecture and everything. And that's where I I really appreciate talking to you because you know, at least one segment of collecting, you can kind of uh you know dispel some um some of the mysticism, right? Um, but like when when you were collecting like really heavy, uh were you interested in those knife makers that you saw their work all the time and you invested because they they would look like they were going to be around for a long time? Or was there any any type of like criterion that you picked other than that like the the pattern and um the pattern and like the aesthetic and everything or handle material choice? Was there something specifically about the maker that that prompted you to decide like this is the time to buy from them?

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I I like to answer it in two stages. One, you you brought up something that's really interesting, which I didn't consider, which is that makers are thinking about creating for the demand. And you say that, and that obviously seems very clear, right? Like you you want to create a product that the more most people are gonna be interested in purchasing it. I don't think I ever thought of that way because I always sought out knives that were made by makers who had a perspective that I can see in their work. Like buying a you know, buying a painting, right? Um there's uh there's a ton of people that are gonna go and buy uh a sign that they see at home goods that says live laugh love. Right? There's millions of people that have that sign in their house. Um so if I'm an artist, do I make a live laugh love thing and hope that someone wants that for their house? Or as an artist, do I create a painting that's a true expression of myself and hope that people feel connected to it? Um and so I think for me, I seek out someone who's expressing themselves and their work and their commitment to their craft in their knives, and that's what I want to own. I want to I want to own their artwork. Um so I I certainly understand the need to create a product that more people are gonna be interested in buying, but I think for long-term success and growth, you want to create the stuff you love making that comes through in your work, and then people are gonna be drawn to that. Um I think the second part of that for me is that I want a knife that was I want a knife that's made by someone who makes a really good knife, and then I want a knife that has the handled material that I like on a really well-made knife. Um, and I think I heard this topic on one of your previous podcasts, but uh you know, flashy material is only cool for a second until you realize that what's behind it is isn't really of any substance or quality. So I think perfecting your craft from a fun a form uh a function standpoint, right? Like have I made a slip joint that's centered, have I made a slip joint that's flush, have I made a slip joint that's symmetrical, where the inlay is you know well fit, and you know, those things that you know that I look for. Um and then start to uh embellish it tastefully, uh either to order or to your own own preference. But I think for me, in in any hobby or any interest, the things I want to keep and and hold on to are the things that are executed really well and ideally represent the maker that made it. Um if it's a production knife, I want it to be you know accurate and well made. If it's a handmade knife, I want as close to that as possible, um with that this sort of that that soul of the artist coming through, where you can sort of you can experience that. You can, you know, to me, I think like Romano is is that for me. Like I pick up one of his knives and like I can see his workshop, you know, I can see the hammers that he made to make this knife, and you you can feel it in his work, and you know that to me is is you can't replicate that. That's original to him. And although it's a you know it's a Lanny's clip with my carta scales and a federal shield and a hand-finished blade, like a thousand other knives out there, it's a Romano and it's a representation of his craft. So I think being true to yourself when you are a maker is the most important thing, and just be as be as good as you're interested in being, um, because there definitely are subjoint makers that I've seen and actually have like reasonable following in accolade um because they are bringing their vision to life, but the quality compared to some of the other makers isn't quite there, and those makers are I've heard them be like, I'm okay with that. Like, this is the knife I make, it's a representation of me. I'm proud of it, and people collect it. I'm not gonna probably collect that. Um, but I think collectors in general want to collect stuff that they feel a connection with, and I think that connection comes from the maker expressing themselves when they create that work.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Those those are good answers. Um so um let's talk a little bit about like the slip joint mechanism itself. So, you know, there's um I've talked to have you I don't know if you've ever listened to the catchbit show. Um Neil Ponchard, um um um Mike and Jason, they they run they run that, and uh they talk a lot about like historical traditional uh and and uh collecting and replicating that in their work. And um you know, there's things that like we talk about like half-stops versus the the cam tangs or uh you know centered blades or you know everything being um you know blacksmithed and and cut in and things like punched in or whatever before the modern era of slip joints were being made. Um how how important is like a half-stop to you? Like how important is a centered blade to you? How important is like um like what what type of like characteristics are you looking for specifically in blades, and how like how does that change your mind about whether you keep something or or trade it or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

To me, it's not necessarily what the knife is, it's uh how it all comes together. So if it doesn't have a half stop, I would like the action on that knife to be very smooth. Um, if it does have a lock back, I want it to lock up tight. Um centering matters to me, I guess. I think to me, why I love slip joints is the same reason I love like kitchen knives, and it's the same reason I like you know, um firearms in certain instances, is that on the surface these are very simple tools, and what I appreciate are people who have perfected those tools over time and tradition. So if a maker is executing either something that's 200 years old and they're doing their version of it, or they're innovating and doing something different and new, that's not what's as important to me as how well they execute on the thing they're trying to do. Um so if it has a hand rub blade, I want the hand rub to be really parallel and clean and you know, sort of delete at the plunge grind like nicely. Um and if it's not, if it's you know uh belt finish, like I want to see like the parallel lines of of the grind on the from the belt. So I think for me it's less less about the spec sheet and more about the execution.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, and I I think uh that makes total sense to me, right? Because uh that that's something that I I mean there's no blueprint for a knife maker on exactly like what what what makes uh the the quintessential knife, right? But I I think that all of us see it when like in in the in the marketplace. We all see it. Like Tony Bose is a perfect example, um and and Reese too. I think Reese more so than even Tony. Like if you look at Reese, everything about his aesthetic is something that just pops to me. Like everything is just on point all the time. And whether you're picking one up and and coon handing it, or whether you just sort of looking at pictures of it, it's just everything looks like it's it's just like a wonderful knife to have. And uh and Tony, you know, did that same thing. Um, but I I just think that there are certain elements of the way that Reese executes things that I think is just an evolution of his dad's uh aesthetic, and you can really tell that he took that to a just a different level of um meticulousness. Like I think that anybody anybody who knew Tony or uh uh learned from him was like, you know, it's it's right, and this is like the way that I do things, and uh and you can do it your way, but this is the way that I do it. And uh and Reese just took that to a just a completely different level. And it's actually something that um, you know, Tim Robertson uh and I have talked about it, but there's a small group of of makers around the world that are really pushing the the aesthetic of traditional slip joints in in that way, right? Where everything is just it's perfect. And it's it's what you consider like the standards. It's like this this there there is uh uh a slip joint that exists where it's flush in uh all three positions, that it uh you know the blade is absolutely centered, that there's no gaps in the shield, that um the the spring is hidden, that all of the uh the satin finishes or hand rubs is absolutely perfect, the swedges are even, all the yada yada yada. But then you go down through this list, and it's like really there's uh not a lot of makers in the world that can produce a slip joint of that quality and hit it every time. Um and and a lot of these guys, like I've been in some of their shops before, and when you see them make a make a blade, like they're really thinking about that, and everything that they're doing is purpose-driven when they're making something. And that's I think it's really cool as a you know, as a uh a knife maker to see just the level of professionalism that goes into something that really almost seems kind of like arcane and mystical, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah, and that I think you nailed you nailed it. For me, that's what it is. It's like these things do not need to be that perfect at all, whatsoever, you know. Like there are $40 knives that are gonna work just as good as any of those knives you described, right? And that's not what it's about for me. For me, it is that I can have the pleasure of enjoying and admiring and carrying something that is flawless for no other reason, other than someone decided to put in the extra 10,000 hours to get from a 95% knife to a 100% flawless knife, and it's not necessary, and it it doesn't matter from any functional standpoint, right? And it is just at that point, it is art. I I don't think there's really any other way to describe it because there is no functional benefit to any of those things you spoke about, right? A knife doesn't need a shield, a knife doesn't need a uh symmetrical swedge. I mean, maybe that's gonna help with cutting performance. Like no one would ever be able to tell the difference if the blade's sharp, but the fact that for you know a thousand dollars, you can have the absolute best of something in the entire world that really excites me as a collector whose budget is not crazy, that I can say like I have handled the highest highest level of execution of this particular thing that exists, and I think that's why when we were talking about like new makers and that sort of thing, like sure, there's things that I see, I go, Oh, that looks cool. I like what they did with that, this and that. But for me, like at this point, the stuff that I'm keeping either has an emotional component to it, um, or it is flawless. And I can't really think of a lot of other hobbies where you can have a handmade from raw material made by one person from start to finish, the best in the world at that price point, right? You watches and cars and guns and you know, things that people collect to get to handmade perfection is typically can be anywhere between you know 10 and a thousand times that that number to get to to even think about collecting that stuff. And for me to feel like I don't just forever feel like so appreciative and fortunate to have like kind of found this hobby and to be in a position personally that I I can enjoy those things, that's what that's what I love. You know, that's what I love about collecting is that like that chasing of perfection. And I think as I kind of went through the years and experienced new new knives and new knivemakers, and when I would come across these knives that were perfect, it was just like wow, this is it. Um and that's just what gets me really excited.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Yeah, that's that's super cool. Yeah, because I mean if you think about if you think about like a Rolex, um yeah, you you have the time, like you know that it's the time that's being put into it. You know that like it, I mean it keeps time, sure, like uh whatever. But the time the time keeping component of a Rolex is like the least of its things. Um and and but you know you're spending like $10,000, $15,000, $25,000 like and and up in order to get that thing. And to me, that's like a I know doctors and lawyers and things like that have them, but it's very difficult for somebody like me who's like used to like Timex and Seiko and stuff like that to like think about owning a Rolex and like I would never take it anywhere. Uh but like I I agree, the the custom knife maker is a very obtainable level of mastery um from a from a cost perspective, and that's where I think um it gets difficult because you know you think about some of these old time uh older um slip joint makers like Bobby Toole and Um John Lloyd and people like that produce a really exceptional slip joint with like the materials and everything like that. Like we're talking about materials and everything, so like you can obtain it for around the same price as a an up-and-coming slip joint maker. Like if you think uh like Lloyd, uh you know, you can get mammoth ivory and bolsters and everything like that on it for under $600. And it's like it's hard for somebody like you know me to compete on that because I I have all the I like I'm paying new prices for mammoth or I'm I'm paying uh new prices for certain types of Damascus or things like that, and and not much reputation when it comes to producing those things. And it is hard to compete against some of those guys. So like to your point, like you can you can have a a really good slip joint for fairly cheap, and it kind of further complicates new knife makers getting into it because I I don't know if uh I mean it's really hard to hit your stride uh when there is that that financial dynamic along with uh quality and and materials and everything.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yeah, I respect it and don't envy it, you know, like the gap between a production slip joint and the best of the in the world is a thousand dollars, right? And those guys that you mentioned are you know sort of in the middle of that and they've been around for a while and they're accessible. So for someone who's trying to break into that market, they either have to do something that makes them stand out, whatever that innovation or creativity or new perspective is, or they have to get really good at being really good really quickly, right? Like you have to make a better knife than those guys at or around that price point and create enough demand that you know you can sustain that. I think like Richie, you mentioned him, Jason. Like, I think he's a great example, right? Like, relatively new slip joint maker. To me, from the outside looking in, here's somebody who understands like what that perfect slip joint can be in each knife that he makes. You can see him getting closer to it. He puts up knives for sale via via first come, first serve or lotto, and there's people that are interested in buying them every single time. You know, I never see a knife sit. Um, and I think he's gonna be able to sustain. And he is what I think he's done is he's it looks to me like he's making a really good slip joint early on. So if he's able to produce that quality with this relatively short amount of tenure, that's someone that I'm gonna keep my eye on, right? Um, because if this is where he's at after I don't know how long he's been making knives, it can't be more than at least a couple years from from my perspective. And if you feel free to correct me if you know better, but where will he be in another five years? Where will he be in ten years? I think that's somebody who will probably be creating that that level of execution like we were talking about earlier. But he hasn't really done anything different, right? He's making traditional patterns that sort of every knife maker makes using relatively traditional materials. But I'm following him because I see I see the quality that he's producing now, you know. So I think you can do it. And obviously, my opinion on this stuff just kind of represents my opinion and what I like and what I like to collect. I don't know if I really represent the masses when it comes to knife collecting in general. I think maybe more so aligned with specifically slip joint makers. Um but I feel like you know the the the number of people that seriously collect handmade traditional knives, I mean, it can't be more than a thousand people in the world. You know, so it's uh like I said, I don't I don't envy you, but I respect you for it because you appreciate it and you respect the tradition of it and you you appreciate the skill and commitment to create that product, and I think anyone who's truly committed to doing that and creating their best work of something they're passionate about, there's gonna be people who are gonna collect it. Um so I I I definitely don't want anyone who's listening or you to feel like don't get into custom slip joint making. Like, yes, do get into custom slip joint making. Like I there are people who are buying these knives. I think just the reality of it is those sort of issues that we talked about, like the gap between like an entry level and a totally high-end level, um, the relative accessibility of some of the middle tier makers and uh and sort of this rough spot between do I innovate in this space or do I try and execute in sort of the most traditional sense, you know. Um, but I think if if a maker is sort of following their passion and creating the knives that they would want to carry themselves, um and their sort of blood, sweat, and tears are going into that, there's gonna there's gonna be appeal.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Yeah. Well, and yeah, I uh you know, I I think that there's several different types of collectors out there too. Like um uh I would kind of deem you like the uh the curator uh type, right? So you have you have a specific aesthetic, uh, you collect a very uh like a very a very specific type of slip joint, right? From very specific type of makers. And then maybe you have like this the supportive um uh the supportive like a up up and coming collector where it's like I want I'm like I'm interested in who you are. I want to spend you know a few hundred dollars every once in a while on something that I kind of like uh to just get you to the next paycheck or get you to the next project to that way like I can invest in nurturing you, right? And then there's ones that like are you know the the collectors that look at it uh purely from a profit perspective, right? Because like one thing that I've always uh uh appreciated about Tony Bowes is that um up until uh really near the end of his life, um hit his prices were pretty fair and static, right? And then the secondary market was really where you saw those crazy numbers. And so like he made a uh a really good quality slip joint for a fair price and an accessible price, and as long as you could wait and everything, then you got it, and then you instantaneously had equity of that knife. So you could go and sell it for probably almost twice what you uh what he charged you for it, and the secondary market uh fed the constant interest in in his blades too, al along with just Tony and who he is and how he was innovating. But you know, you I think that you have a lot of different types of collectors and you have a lot of different types of um money making and investment and everything like that. Because I mean, nobody needs 500 slip joints, right? And even inside of the broad spectrum of makers, it's hard to find um a lot of individuality from piece to piece or or like um you know things like that. But I I think that if you look at all the different personas of collecting, um that it's a lot easier to kind of break that apart and say that you know there there are certain types of collectors for every type of maker out there, except for the ones that um can't cut it or make like a subpar work, which I think is um you know, there there's a point in time when you can't really expect it if you're doing um like basic basic um execution on stuff, that you're going to build a collector's market the same way um or appeal uh the same way that you are um if if you really spend the time and energy to like build like actually execute knives well first, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Yeah, it totally makes sense. And I think that's like across any any interest in any material goods. I think you have people that like are are chasing perfection, that's what they're after, and whether that's cars, knives, watches, whatever. And then you have people who are interested in those items because they're interested in those items, right? And that difference between an an 80% flawless knife and a hundred percent flawless knife is of no interest to them or appreciation to them, and that's fine too. Um and then there's people who are like, Yep, I carry my knife because I use my knife 20 times a day, and you know, I beat the crap out of it, and I I I have a bunch of knives because I think they're cool, but like you know, they're a tool and a tool only for me. And like I would advocate for like right on. Who I think there's sometimes so much shade like amongst collectors, or think about like you know, Chevy vs. Ford, and like, dude, you're a car guy, you're a car guy. Like your taste is different, but you both actually share the same hobby and the same passion, and you derive you know, um excitement from that hobby. I I don't think it's any different. Like, if if someone likes a knife maker who's producing work that is flawed, but they're they've built a community or a followship, and people want to support them and collect their stuff, like good for them. You know, like that's I'm not necessarily gonna be someone who's gonna support and collect your work, right? Um but I'm not also gonna take issue with somebody that does. Like, you know, I I think the amount of money you have to spend on a hobby and and your taste or or what it gets you excited about that hobby certainly do not align um inherently. So collect what you like to collect, you know. Um I I think this is such a small community, and I think if you're someone who who's crazy about pocket knives and you love collecting pocket knives, and for whatever reason, like I think there's there's only a benefit to sort of support that, right? And look for opportunities to educate somebody if they don't see that, but also be okay if they don't care um about that too. You know, I there's definitely been times throughout my history of collecting where like you know, I've caught shade about a particular material or supporting a particular maker. And I think like I might have missed something, so educate me. But also if I say like, no, this is what I like and this is what I'm collecting, then like at least respect my right to do that. Um and so you're right, like I I am a curator of stuff, I consider myself an appreciator, um, sort of an active observer. You know, that's why I love to take photos of my knives, that's why I like to show them off. Uh I if people reach out to me and have questions, I try and answer them to the best of my ability, but I'm also not an expert about uh slip joint mechanisms, right? Um, I'm always still learning that stuff, and and my interest sort of lies at the level of which it lies. And uh I you know I I don't know, I I think it's such a unique hobby, and I I don't know. I would just encourage people to explore it and you know collect what makes them feel comfortable. I think when you start to collect beyond your means and you're making sacrifices for your collection, that's not healthy. Um, I certainly have had those moments where I'm like spending way too much time and way too much money in the hobby, and it you know, had it took away from my enjoyment of it. And that's I think why I'm at such a good place now, is that my collection sort of represents like the stuff that means a lot to me that I feel comfortable keeping. Um and it should just bring you joy. Your hobbies should just bring you joy, right? And they should bring you uh maybe some friends along the way, and that's what's so cool about it.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Yeah. When I think uh, you know, as as a maker, I like there's every knife should be utilitarian, right? Like it should be able to be used. But I really don't I'm I'm not interested in just making a knife to make a knife. I think that everybody like can can just make knives to make knives. Um what I really actually do like is the relationship that you you form with people that are interested in your work. Uh, not not even necessarily because I I want somebody to curate me as like this odd duck or whatever, but just because I like actually having friends that are interested in the same things that I am, which is knives. Like you and I can talk about like I mean you're in mate, your collection is amazing. Like all of your pictures, I'm like, man, like if I could like switch uh switch lives with you just for long enough to be able to like open them all up and just look at them and everything, um, I I think that's really cool. So like there's an admiration uh there for like collectors and whatnot that I as a maker and who has who's you know as somebody who has collected in the past, um, I really just appreciate that. Like I I don't know what actually other than I was uh I was hunting and I needed a set of knives because I was sick of have having to sharpen them all the time. I'm like, okay, well I'm just gonna make my own. And then this has turned into like a really expensive hobby on my site to be a maker, right? Whereas I could have just went and bought them from somebody, and maybe I I should have gone down that route because I would have had a pretty impressive collection by now with the same money that I've spent on tools and everything. But um yeah, I I like the relationship. Like as a maker, I would prefer the relationship. I want to be able to make things for people who I know that appreciate them and who are just like spurred on by it. So like it's difficult because like I don't I don't really want to make knives that sell well in the sense that I don't want to just like kind of pick apart the market and figure out, well, if I use this kind of fat carbon, if I use this kind of Damascus, is or like are those the things that are gonna sell? I really just want to be able to get into like a vein always with my blades where I know that they're going into good hands and I know that somebody's enjoying them, and I would love to be able to see that story unfold with like the way that they use them and whatnot. That's where my life energy is actually invested in people, and that's that's what interests me. Like that's why I make knives, is because I want my life energy to mean something to somebody else, and in their hands it becomes their own story.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

That reminds me of this really kind of aha moment that I had as a collector, because I think as a collector, and first of all, thank you. I appreciate like all the kind words about you know my collection. You're welcome to come and fondle my knives anytime, sir. Um, but as a as a collector who, like I said, when kind of when we started that, like here's you committed your life to this craft, right? That is like anything that's handmade and made in the shop like yours is like you know, hopefully continues to have like a renaissance, and people continue to have an interest in like investing and doing that type of work, right? As opposed to just getting replaced with automation and technology and all of that. Like, first of all, I just have that admiration for people who who do that, period. Um but as a as a collector, it's like, wow, you made this knife, like you're you're a knife making rock star, like meeting, you know, you you meet a knife maker that you've collected and you finally get to meet him, and you're smiling ear to ear, and it's just oh my god, I love your knives, and you appreciate you know everything you you do to make them, and uh I love collecting them, and you're kind of like just obsessed. And so I was sort of having that moment, and I was talking to Michael Raymond, and he goes, I I can't make knives if it isn't for collectors. And I was like, What do you mean? He's like, if you're not willing to buy my knife for X amount of money, I can't make this knife, I can't spend you know, X number of days or even months to make a knife at this level of execution if I don't know that I can sell it. And I was like, Oh, that's crazy. I never thought of it that way, but like, yeah, that that mutual uh that ecosystem or that you know mutually beneficial relationship is really cool, right? Um and those are the moments where I've met some of these makers and shows or whatever, and I'm smiling because I'm meeting you, but they're smiling because they're meeting me. And like that always surprises me. Um because uh you know, I'm just I'm just a customer of yours in my mind. Um, but when I when I had that aha moment and you said it really eloquently, like that really is so cool. Um, and I think that's you know, those are the things that keep you in a hobby and keep you collecting, and maybe will cause you to buy that second, third, or fourth knife from a maker when you might already have the one that represents their artwork. Um, like everything, right? Like we want to have that connection. And uh, you know, I think my respect for someone who puts that amount of time into perfecting a craft uh is special to me, and it's cool to hear from a maker's perspective that that that's sort of reciprocated. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Well, yeah, I mean, everybody would love to just have a few honest uh uh collectors uh to be able to feed uh feed them and the energy. But like I'll I'll I'll use as for instance. Um I I've always had a full-time job. I work in cybersecurity and of several several jobs sometimes at a time, depending on whether I'm doing contract work or whatever. And uh in 2020, I was working in this place and I got laid off unexpectedly, and it was like right before the pandemic. And I had been doing knives as a hobby, but I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'm a full-time knife maker while I'm uh trying to like sit on an employ unemployment and find uh uh you know, find find some other type of full-time work again. And I can remember, you know, man, the support, uh, you know, all like you don't see it, like you don't see people like uh makers like me like crying over like the stress of life and uh the the I don't be being down on stuff, but anytime I get an order and anytime I'd be able to fill it, anytime I would be able to talk to somebody who is interested, it was a it spurred me on because I was sitting in a really low place uh because I was laid off, right? I was like, this I either sink or swim, and I'm gonna try to swim with my knives, but um uh you know I don't know if if collectors and buyers really understand sometimes uh just how integral that that money um is because really at the end of the day, um sometimes for people like me, it can be the difference of whether you default on your car or your house or whatever. It's just you know, $500 extra dollars might it it might it's I it's a lot, right? I don't think any of uh of us makers uh are so conceited that we don't realize that a collector spending uh hard-earned money is uh an easy decision for them. But in in a lot of cases in my life, in my experience with uh knives and you know everything, there's been times when it's been the difference between uh you know feast or famine. And that's something that I really appreciate too, is like what and I don't I don't know that any of us talk about it enough. Is sometimes it's you you get down as a person or you get under you know under your luck or whatever, and the difference between a collector or somebody who wants to buy your knives and support you or not can be the difference between whether you can go on the next day or not. Uh so you know I I I appreciate the community. Uh there's been a lot of times when it's really come through for me and times when I didn't know exactly how I was gonna make it happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

Yeah, I mean I I of course respect um that vulnerability and I like I said, like I don't envy that, but I was but I respect you for it, and I respect makers for it, and I think that's like the plight of any artist or maker, is that you're putting in you know tens of hours into making one knife, and that's just a knife that's sitting on your workbench, really, until you know someone decides to buy it, right? Um yeah, that's it's a trip. And uh and like there are uh you and a number of makers that like sure, of course, like you you want to be able to buy an and there are there are certainly collectors that like they meet a maker, they want to support them, they're gonna invest in them early. And is that for the hopes that they get big and they are sitting on a fat collection, or they just really see something in that person and they want to encourage them? I think people have a million different reasons to support a maker. Um but I would just encourage anyone who's like dipping their toe in collecting these types of knives to like take the time to experience them. It's a it's a safe thing to collect. You're never gonna really be on the wrong side of one of these knives. I mean, the worst case scenario, you know, you lose a hundred bucks. Um and the differences between you know, ten different knife makers making the same exact Lanny's clip with bolsters and micarta with a federal shield, each one of those ten knives is gonna feel completely different. And that representation of the person who's making it to me is like that's the stuff that I really enjoy. And I think that's why I I needed to own and and buy and sell as many knives as I could so that I could experience that and see what were the things that really spoke to me. Um, and I've just been like so surprised at times by a knife that isn't you know by a by a famous knife maker that brought me you know infinite as much joy as the fanciest of knives. I mean, I bought a $40 like Klaus uh Congress knife class, you know, one of these guys. Yeah, it's like not that old, it's got plastic handles, it's got four blades, but like it's good. I bought on eBay for like 35 bucks, and when it came, I was like, this is awesome. I'm like just as excited to check this out as I was, you know, a knife that costs 10 times as much. And I think when you can experience a an artist's work at a relatively like affordable, I mean, you know, whatever that's r relevant to whoever's spending their money, but I would encourage people to go and explore and try different makers and see what that knife is like for you because it might be the it might be the one that you're like, holy smokes. I love this this maker, and I want to collect more of their knives.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:09

Yeah. Well, you kind of answered my last question. So usually as a as a uh burn down to the end of an episode, I ask like uh you have about advice, you know, if uh you have advice for you know new makers or collectors or things like that, but I think you just uh encapsulated that pretty uh uh succinctly. So um like I really appreciate your time. I uh I uh I I think that you know, see of collectors that want to have safe queens and hide that stuff away. And it's like these are like I won't disclose numbers, I won't disclose like how much I paid for things, I won't disclose what those things are. Uh, you and a subset of uh other collectors, especially in the slip joint market, have just kind of like opened the floodgates. It's like this is what I collect. I'm gonna take pictures, like real good pictures, and then we're just going to be out there and and ex kind of expose or or lift the veil of collecting. And I really hope that that trend continues because uh it I I like to see when people collect my knives. Um and you'd be surprised at how few of my knives actually get um uh you know act actively out there and and pictures taken of them, even for the number that I've made. Um I really like uh maker or uh I really like uh collectors and users who love to be able to show off their work because like equally it's it's not a notoriety thing, it's a it's uh the pride in that they're you know proud of it and that they want to uh use it and show it off. So I really appreciate all the effort that you put into beautiful pictures and interacting with uh uh makers and other people and whatnot, because that investment I think is important in the in the next phase of of knife makers. Um we just we're seeing it just a a a different era of knives, and I think that you're on the forefront of being able to uh support that and encourage other people as well. So I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

I appreciate you. That's very kind. I appreciate you reaching out to me to you know get to connect a little bit, and it's nice to meet you and see you and chat and uh your your efforts and your commitment to creating knives and the time that it takes to put into a podcast, and it is it is appreciated um just as much on on this end. And you know, I uh I would say to makers make, you know, easy for me to say, I I understand that. Um but I think if you want to be a maker and you you want to find success from a financial standpoint, you have to go all in and you have to represent yourself and your best work. Um, and that's obviously so easy for me to say, but I do think that's the reality. And you know, when I first started seeing your knives, um, it was like the little fixed blades you were doing, like the little bird and trout knives, and those to me, like they jumped off the page. I thought they were unique to you, and anytime I saw them, I knew they were yours. Um and I for collectors, collect what you like to collect. You know, don't be closed-minded. Um, learn, research what you want, but also if something makes you happy, it's your money, collect it, enjoy it. And I think the more that we can kind of respect that amongst collectors, uh, the healthier the community is, and the healthier the community is, the more people will be involved in the community, and the more people that are involved in the community um can support more makers to continue making. So uh I appreciate everything you're doing, I appreciate your vulnerability, um, and for having me on to talk. It was really a pleasure. Thank you, Aaron.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again for your time, and uh, you have a good night, okay? All right, you too, bro. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless you.