SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere. And join me as we talk to other dice makers and crackers about everything dice. Welcome to the Good Old Blades podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I'm joined by special guest, Linda Karststone. Linda has been a scrim shander uh for a long time and has uh blessed many popular knife makers' works with uh her artistry. Uh it is a pleasure to have you, Linda. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Absolutely. Um, so uh standard format for the show is yeah, we want to get to know about you uh personally uh before we get into your craft. But um uh tell me a little bit about yourself, um, uh where you came from and uh kind of like what got you introduced into uh Scrimshaw from that point.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Sure. Well, I was I was born in Ohio while my dad was going to Ohio State University, so learned all the fight songs up there, and most of my aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents were all in the Toledo area. And uh when I was growing up there and going to high school, I was always interested in art, always drawing and spending time in the art classes. Um, had two excellent art teachers there, Julie Harrison and John Nicholson, and they kind of taught a little bit of everything, and they invited a local business that was doing Scrimshaw to give a presentation to the art class. They had to tell us what Scrimshaw was, and um, they were doing just arts and crafts shows at the time, and they were interested in hiring some kids to do production work. And I went in and showed them my portfolio of little drawings at 15 years old and was hired, and they kind of showed us how to scrimshaw. They maybe hired four or five local people. One of them was uh Sandra Brady, who was also going to my school. And so she and I learned together and worked for them for a few years and then have both kept doing scrimshaw for the rest of our lives.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

So that's super cool. So when when you're going from the medium of like art and pencils and you know, uh and painting and things like that, right? Like the the normal uh accoutrements for for artists to scrimshaw, was there a uh like a deficit that you felt from that, or did you pop pretty naturally into like how exactly you scrimshaw things?

SPEAKER_02 2:46

I think uh one of the reasons I'm still doing scrimshaw is because I started so young that I really had not worked up my art talents. I I did take classes at the University of Toledo after that, um mostly anatomy, some ceramics, printmaking, but the anatomy studies were most valuable. But when I was actually learning to scrimshaw, I wasn't really good at anything yet. And so I I was kind of developing my talents and my scrimshaw technique at the same time. And I think that artists who come into the craft later in their career are a bit at a disadvantage because they're they're used to drawing or painting or whatever, and knowing how those tools work and how it comes out, and with scrimshaw, it's there's a learning curve to how deep to scratch the lines and how close to put them together and the actual technique that you want to use. So I think some artists who are more sophisticated don't stick with scrimshaw long enough because they don't get past that learning curve.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

That makes sense. So uh probably uh a good thing to talk about is uh you know explaining uh through your words what scrimshaw is and some basic uh techniques, like what uh how how does it apply to materials and things like that? Because uh, you know, again, we're there are lots of uh listeners who probably know very little about Scrimshaw or even what it is. So can you uh describe a little bit more about Scrimshaw itself and maybe go into a little bit of the history as well?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

I can. Um so basically, anywhere in the planet where there were ivory on animals, people were decorating it and scratching it up from early caves with the um the early man on mammoth ivory. They would scratch little designs in the Egyptian pyramids. People used to decorate ivory, but it became better known when the ships out of New England were whaling, and whale whales were hunted for a lot of reasons, a lot for their oil, and they went out for a couple years at sea, and so they were scratching up the whalebone and the whale teeth and the baleen from the um from the other whales and bringing home decorations things. So it became popular in old whaling ports like New England or Hawaii and different locations like that, but it was a pretty local art and not really well known. But uh, and they they would use anything from a pocket needle to um just a sailing needle or something, scratch it in and either fill the lanes with soot from a lamp or squid ink. So it was pretty crude stuff depending on the skill of the whaler. And uh and it wasn't very well known. And when whaling stopped, it became almost an extinct art. Then uh when John F. Kennedy got into office uh as a president in 1961, he was from New England and Massachusetts, and so he knew he collected nautical art and he collected scrimshaw, and when he was bringing whales teeth and stuff into the White House, people were uh informed about it again, said, you know, what's that? What is it? And uh he collected old scrimshaw and commissioned some new things, and so that kind of had a resurgence of the scrimshaw. And uh when actually uh Jacqueline Kennedy commissioned a piece that had the presidential seal on it that uh when he was killed in '63, it was put into his coffin and buried with him. So and then after after that, um there was kind of a resurgence of Scrimshaw, of Renaissance, recreation, whatever you want to call it. The uh there's a company in Bellingham, Washington called Alaskan Silver and Ivory, and there were maybe 20 or 30 artists who kind of took on Scrimshaw and started doing a whole lot more with it than just old ships and whales. They were using color and different subject matters and more realistic. And that's that's a little how I it was 1976 when I learned what scrimshaw is, and it was part of that resurgence across the United States. So kind of got into it that way.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

That's cool. So when you got into it, um, what kind of materials or uh like learning methods were available at the time?

SPEAKER_02 7:40

At that time, ivory was very common. You know, uh ivory is not like some things, it's it's very stable, it doesn't deteriorate. That's why there's still mammoth ivory tusks and things like that around. And here in the United States, there was a lot of ivory. They used to make billiard balls out of ivory, piano keys were made out of ivory, um mirrors and sets, dominoes, all kinds of things. So there were there was a lot of old ivory around, and it was not not just elephant ivory, but hippo teeth and walrus tusks and fossil ivories. And so I learned to scrimshaw on ivory, which is the best material for scrimshaw.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah. Well, and why why is it the best material? Um, I I haven't I haven't ever scratched anything on ivory, but I've done some on bone work just to see how bad I am at it. Um and it's it's pretty it's pretty tough on bone, um, in in my experience. So, like what's what's the largest difference in the uh in the ivory medium?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Well, each of the ivories is different, but I use a carbide steel till uh rounded tip point and hand scratch into the ivory. And ivory is porous enough that once you scratch those, the ink can kind of grab into those lines, but it's hard enough that you can polish the surface so the ink only goes into those lines that you scratch. With bone and some other materials, the ink might just randomly go anywhere because it's not as stable as ivory is. So um it works best because it doesn't really have a strong grain that's going to pull you like a cow horn or um something like that, because those are made with hair and they can be scrimshaw, but they want to pull your scribe along those long lines, powder horns and things like that. But the the ivory works best for the techniques I like to use.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

I see. So what you're telling me is it's probably not the fact that I am bad, it's that the material is not that great.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

I tell people if they want to learn to scrimshaw, get a thick chunk of ivory and just keep practicing and sand it down and repolish it and sand it down, repolish it until you get something worth keeping. Because at first you don't know if it's you or the material. And and yes, a lot of materials can be scrimshawed. Ant, antler, uh, the vegetable ivory, the tagwa nuts, they're they're also making many good imitation ivories now that uh scrimshaw well, even coriand countertops. So there's lots of things to scrimshaw, but I think um when you're learning the ivories better.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

So yeah, that makes sense. Um so I I guess probably that brings up a good point about uh ivory and its current state in uh across the world, really. Um because you know, in in knife making we tend to get um a little bit weird about about ivory use. You know, mammoth ivory has basically had this rubber stamp of uh because it's pre-banned and ancient, that it's uh usable. But um I still like the the the common uh culture around m even even mammoth ivory is a little bit taboo, similar to newer ivory um and and whatnot. So can you talk a little bit more about um maybe what your experience is with the the state of ivory today, um the do's and don'ts, uh sighted, and so on and so forth?

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Certainly. Uh well when I started in 76, there were there weren't any, but there was an international CITES ban on ivory in 1989. CITES is the Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species. And I'm not exactly sure how many nations are um members, but it's over a hundred, and the United States is one of the members. And so as a group, CITES uh had promised that what they were going to do is they were just going to put in place an ivory ban, and then they were going to figure out a way to manage the ivory, uh, make sure the elephants were protected, knowing what countries the ivory came from, and then they would start up a legal trade. They put the ban in place with that intention, but then that was never done. The the ban stayed in place, and they never did um come up with a way to uh manage the ivories and make sure because everyone wants it to be legal. I've made my living with elephants. I love elephants, and um, but one thing that these laws didn't take into account is how many elephants die of natural causes and that kind of thing. So it's it it it didn't work very well. And in fact, uh in uh 2016, then so that that took care of bringing m big chunks of ivory into the United States in 1989. And then in 2016, when President Obama was in office, they enacted a new ivory band. And what that did is since it was a federal law, it affected trade within the United States going across state borders. And so um and in fact, I I was against that. I did I didn't think it was the right solution. Um they have some things available now like DNA testing and things, and they could have made it work, but this was just their choice. They they started promoting this by taking about seven tons of ivory and putting it through a rock crusher, things that had been confiscated between 89 and uh 2016, pieces that had um people had brought in that were illegal, or you know, they were wearing a bracelet, bought it in Africa and brought it back and couldn't wear it anymore. So so there were there were stockpiles of this, and they did learn that burning ivory doesn't work. It was too too messy, and so they decided to put it through a rock crusher instead. There were six tons of ivory uh in Denver and one ton in Times Square, and that was done in the Denver Crush was in 2013, then Times Squares was 2015, and that got everybody uproared, and then they got this ban passed in 2016. So it dealt with trade within the United States across state lines. And uh it was they were kind of on a roll, so um they decid there were several states that decided within the state they would pass their own bans, um, not just across state lines, but that you couldn't sell ivory within the state. And they used bad science and actually lies. They they said that they couldn't tell the difference between the ivories and where U.S. Fish and Wildlife wrote the book on how to tell the difference between ivories. They they can tell the difference between mammoth and walrus and hippo and elephant, but there's some states that banned it banned all sales within the state of all ivories, even the fossilized ivories. So you have to be very careful about what state you live in to make sure you're uh following the rules.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Um so what does that look like for you as a as an artist in in Texas? Um, like not only what Texas law is, but how does that affect uh your ability to get pieces from uh other craftsmen to do scrimshot work on?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

So one of the nice things about what I do is I I very rarely sell my own inventory anymore. Most of most of my commission work, someone already owns it, they send it to me, I scratch it up and I send it back. So I'm not selling ivory. I'm I'm putting putting my work on it, but I'm not selling the piece of ivory. So so for me, I can still do those commissions. I just can't sell ivory across state lines. I can within the state of Texas. Um and luckily I'm in a big state, and and this is not one of the states that says they can't tell the difference between the ivories. So um for me it wasn't as bad, but some people um, you know, in smaller states it's affected more because they don't have as uh big of a market to draw from sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

So um I maybe a misinterpretation of CITES uh um guidelines or whatever, but what does it look like for uh possession of ivory? And then uh what kind of risks are there for knife makers in in actually you know having the material and then putting it on blades? Like at what point in time does it become art and not uh specifically regulated by CITES?

SPEAKER_02 17:09

For my knowledge, um, there aren't any states who say you cannot possess ivory. It's the only thing uh that they the laws they have on the book is selling, buying and selling it. So if you you can inherit ivory, uh even even in the states that they've banned all ivories, you can inherit it, but you can't sell it. So um if you're if you're doing a lot of sales across state lines, um it's it's very difficult. There are a lot of other materials that can be used, but um I s I still hope that they will see the error of their ways and change this law.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah, well, uh, you know, in in hunting, uh, which is where I draw a lot of experience from, because that's actually uh how I transitioned into knife making, uh, you know, making my own blades for hunting and whatnot, um, there's a lot of uh misinformation and public ire over uh uh over hunting large game species like elephants and you know the extinction of rhinoceros and um you know walrus hunting and things like that. And you know, uh obviously with the way that uh how to put this, uh there there are certain uh like indigenous peoples in uh the Pacific Northwest and uh Alaska and places like that that uh that are able to hunt those as part of a uh cultural practice, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

But e even still those materials are limited to inside of their own uh tribes, uh not something that they sell um like to out out to everybody else. But um something that interests me a lot in in this duality of ivory ban and and the knife making craft is um is the the blatant um I guess misinterpretation of uh poaching versus natural death versus natural collection methods, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Um so I mean I'm I'd be interested to know what your opinion is on that because I I think that there is a middle ground where that can actually be used as a method for protecting animals and uh and keeping them in uh at least in some way uh funded to keep these these endangered or um or almost extinct species around. But uh a perfect example of that is in in Africa, and specifically South Africa, I know that there was a a rhinoceros rancher uh who is trying to uh raise rhinoceros and and crossbreed them in order to keep them around. I think it was uh maybe it was the blue rhino, but I can't remember exactly white rhino. Um and there is a lot of uh a lot of political issues with being able to sell that ivory that they cut off of the rhinoceros as part of you know danger management. And because of the culture of apartheid and everything over there, it is a very big uh racially and politically fueled battle, uh, in addition with uh with the stigma associated with ivory. But uh suffice it to say, I believe there's a few documentaries about this uh guy. I can't remember uh what his name is, but I'm pretty sure he passed. And uh a lot of these rhinoceros are uh they they can't afford to feed them and to raise them and to keep them protected against poachers because that you know the the sea taners of ivory that they had that they could have sold legally and ethically uh was basically confiscated and they had to close up shops. So now all those uh rhinoceros are kind of back in an endangered state.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

That's uh all the hunting management we know here in the United States that hunters, I mean, the duck stamps and everything like that, the hunters put their money where their mouth is. And I I believe that um I'm not saying there's not a bad hunter now and then, but in general, they want healthy populations so that they grow big and strong and trophy size. They they it's in their best interest. The we're involved with the Texas Bighorn Society here, and it was just a a a group of hunters, Texas Desert Bighorn Sheep were almost extinct here in Texas, and they worked with the ranchers and fish and wildlife, and you know, now now the population's um maturing and huntable and it's healthy, and so uh hunters uh I think can be the answer to that.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Um So Linda, let's pivot a little bit on uh I guess the uh getting back into uh some of your experiences with Scrimshaw. You know, you've been doing it a long time. Are there specific pieces uh or um uh motifs or things like that that you like over others?

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Well, I'm a Leo. I love lions, I love doing the big cats. I'm probably uh I'm probably known best for my big cat pieces. Um it's not exactly that they're my favorite thing, but I I love them and I've always had cats as pets, so I understand them and I like doing the cats. So but I just what I really love about Scrimshaw all of these years is working with a customer. If they're gonna be investing in Scrimshaw, it has to be something that's pretty special to them, some kind of interest, you know, if it's their pet dog or their um um winning racehorse or just a place that they've been. Um I love that I have the ability to take those important things to the customer and you know, make it come alive and make it last as an heirloom piece that they can have and hopefully their family will keep as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Um I think that's that's real cool. Um in your I mean I've seen several examples of your uh big cat or your uh um your like safari pieces and whatnot. Is there are there specific uh like knife artists uh uh that you've worked with where you uh you really feel like you get uh a lot of room to play um with your motifs?

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Uh there's there's some knife makers I've worked with for most of my career. Um Edmund Davidson for a long time. I think he's had maybe someone else do some work lately, but uh I've done a lot of his work. I do a lot of work for Lloyd McConnell and Dennis Friedley. There was a maker here who lived in in Kerrville, Texas, where I am. His name's Leon Triber. He he was a guild member and he's passed away now, but he was always bringing over knives for me to do, and that was fun because we just hand deliver them back and forth, and uh so those were always fun projects. Um so those are some of the oh boy, didn't make a list of these. I've worked, I've worked with so many fabulous makers through the years. Um, one of my favorites was Stan Fujisaka in Hawaii, and uh whenever I did a knife for Stan, it always came with a couple boxes of macadamia nuts that he'd send me to incentivize me to get his knives done. So loved working on those too.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

So yeah, fresh macadamia nuts are amazing. Oh, wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

So he knew he knew the way to his Scrimshander's heart. So uh, but but I just um I mean, and not just the makers, there's been so many collectors over the years, just uh they kind of I feel like some of them took me to raise, you know. If I wasn't having a good show, they'd come by and order something or buy something, make sure I could pay my bills and stuff. So it's it's been a it's been a an amazing career. Amazing. I've I've loved I've loved what I've done. It's been my job my whole life, and uh I do always encourage other people to give this a try.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah. You know, in in the time that I've uh done knife shows, I don't think I've ever seen any uh scrimmshanders in in shows. Uh talk to me a little bit about that. Because I, you know, I know that you're a previous guild member and you're uh an associate member with the guild, correct? I mean, what's correct? What what does that look like from when you started and and like when you got into knife shows? And I don't know. I'm interested in that because I just it's just not something that you see a whole lot anymore. Mostly uh I think that that niche artistry has been replaced mostly in table count by like the uh the mid-tech and tactical industry and whatnot. So you don't really see the the really see that at all anymore.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Um you're right. When I when I was doing shows, uh a lot of shows, I mean, you know, maybe 20 a year, um, and always going to the Atlanta Blade show. Uh in Atlanta at its heyday, there may have been five or six of us displaying at one time, and uh and just either people pass on or stop working, or it but there there just are not very many of us. And um the books that have come out, uh Ava Hollett's book on contemporary scrimmishhanders, and um even as I go through those pages now, a lot of people have passed on or stopped working. Um, and and that was kind of a worldwide collection of us. There just are not very many people doing scrimshaw. Um a lot of people who have the ability will go into engraving because um in general engravers are paid more than scrimshanders, so if you have the technique, um a lot of people will go into that. But um I don't know, maybe it's maybe it's just scrimshaw's fate to be uh ebbing and flowing art that it it dies and comes back and dies and comes back, and I'm I'm hoping it makes another comeback. But I was just recently up at the Fort Worth Atlanta, uh the Fort Worth Blade show, and I didn't have a table, but I was uh going around and Alice Carter was there who does scrimshaw work, and a guy from Florida named Smitty, he was there. They were they both had Scrimshaw for sale, but um but out of a out of a show of 400 tables, two is not very many. So there's just not very many of us.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yeah, and and do you think is there any correlation in part at least to the uh availability of ivory or makers not using materials that are um scrimshaw friendly that you think is part of the reason why it's not as popular anymore?

SPEAKER_02 28:38

I don't think that that's the reason. I I think that there's just not as much out there and less people know what scrimshaw is, if they haven't been doing shows for a long time and haven't haven't seen it on displays, and it's not it's not fic featured in a lot of the magazines as much anymore. Um all of the all of the knife illustrated magazines and things like that, they they used to have full scrimshaw sections. You know, the the knives annual books always had a scrimshaw section. Um and you could find out who was currently working and what they were up to, but scrimshaw is just I I do think the ivory is a problem because people are not up on the laws and things, and so it's just e there's so many other things to do, it's easier to stay away from it than to create a piece that someone might not be able to buy because of where they live. And so I I guess that does have a deterrent built into it, but new scrimmage could be working on different things, or there's other besides the knife world, you know, uh people in in the old whaling ports, they could still just do ships, or if you collected if you loved dogs, you could scrimshaw just dogs. Yeah. So I it's just such a specialized art and it is time consuming, so there's not a lot of it, but um, I do think it's still a a viable um trade to go into and learn. I think there will be collectors. So I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yeah. Well, and you know, uh doing some research on your work um holistically, I noticed that we we probably see Scrimshaw a little bit more than I th we think, right? I mean, you've done some work in in the the Hollywood set scene and everything, right? Can you talk can you talk a little bit about uh like the Lone Ranger and that leg and uh and uh the Quentin Tarantino knife? I think that those are really fascinating. Like, can you just talk a little bit more about like what what's what was behind that?

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Oh that the the Lone Ranger thing was a pretty pretty interesting uh happening for me. I I got a phone call. Someone said they were uh a set producer for Disney and they saw my work. And could they FedEx me a sample for me to work on? And could I get it done and FedEx it back? I'm like, well, sure, you know, so send it. So uh next day arrives a plastic bottle. It was they had they had this plastic material formed like a bottle, had the curves and things, and they sent me a little drawing, and they they asked me to call them when I got there and take pictures, and and I did. I did this sample, I sent it back. It it was plastic, it didn't scrimshaw well, but it did it did scrimshaw, and so then they uh it was produced by Disney, and Disney really knows how to write a contract. It was thick and it was scary, and it was you will not tell anyone about this, and uh very uh very strict about not telling anyone about the project. And so I signed that and then they mailed me a leg. They they shipped it to my house and they shipped me the artwork, and what had happened was they were already in production and they thought they could do it all with the computers. They had the artwork, they had the leg. It um Helena Bottom Carter. A lot of people haven't seen The Lone Ranger, so if you haven't, give it a shot. I mean, it got a bad rap, but of course I liked it, but I wanted to like it. So um, but uh in the production, um, Helena Bottom Carter, her character Red has a ivory leg that has Scrimshaw on it that shoots bullets out of her beautiful red boots. And so they actually did a cast of her leg and they sent it to me in pieces, and I put the artwork on it, and um just keeping them informed and sending them pictures the whole time, and but they needed it back right away, and I was almost done, and I said, you know, I'm I'm gonna have it finished tonight, but it's gonna be, you know, probably 9:30, so I can't do anything with it till tomorrow. And they're like, no, tell us what time it'll be done, and so someone knocks on my door from Midnight Express. I had to show my ID and hand over the leg, and they took it and put it on a plane and shipped it out to the set. It was it was pretty incredible, but it was it was a fun project. And um then when the movie did come out, uh my husband Mark and I, we we got about 40 tickets and invited some friends and family to go with us to the theater and watched it, and uh every time the leg came on the screen, we were super excited, and at the end of the screen we were all watching the credits roll and roll, and they were getting smaller and smaller, and then they were divided into two rows and like, okay, you guys watch that side, we'll watch this side, and the whole movie ended, and it never said anything about the scrimshaw.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

How dare they!

SPEAKER_02 34:19

I know, and so I said, and scrimshaw bye, and all my friends said Linda Carstone, but the people in the theater just didn't know what we were doing, so we we explained ourselves a little afterwards, and but it it was fun, and uh so but they were when they decided they need to go old school on it, there just weren't a lot of us to choose from. So they had been on my website, they had seen that I had done one for Richard Petty, and they had seen that I did this one for Quentin Tarantino, and that that was uh that was another one. It was a gorgeous knife that Harvey Dean did, and he sent it to me, and he said, I'm gonna send you this artwork, and I need you to put it on the handle, and that's what I do. I'm like, no problem, I can get it. But I got this beautiful knife, and I got this scrolled in Glorious Bastards written out in handwriting, and I'm I called him up and I was like, Why do you want me to put this on your knife? He said, Well, I can't tell you, just that's what goes on the knife. I'm like, I just had a hard time, but I put it on there because I had didn't know anything about the movie yet or anything, and it turned out that uh it was it was this handwritten on the script, um, and that was the handwriting on it, and that's why they wanted it to match. So just strange little jobs. Yeah, so scrimchanders learn weird things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

So uh so the uh my understanding is Brad Pitt commissioned it from Harvey Dean, right? To give to Quentin Tarantino, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:00

That's correct. And and I didn't get to meet anybody. Uh of course I know Harvey, that's the most important person, right? But but yeah, it was just uh scrimshot can fill a niche that many things can't, and uh and the way it can be customized for even something like that is pretty pretty fun.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yeah, I uh you know it it's a beautiful art form, right? And it to me, even if you just take it back to uh you know maritime uh uh type of history, it's still really fascinating because before the era of of photographs, you had you had uh like archaic uh depictions, paintings, like scrimshaw, uh whatever. Like however you could tell that story of what was in your mind's eye or what you experienced, that was one of the ways that you did it. And it's like it's ancient, right? And I it surprises me sometimes. Like if I could live multiple lifetimes, scrimshaw would be one of the things that I would really just love to master. Um, I don't know at at my age and other priorities and whatnot if that would ever be the case, unless there is some way to like severely reduce the learning curve. But um have you have you ever taught any master classes or uh like what does your your quasi-retirement from Scrimshaw look like when it comes to passing, like passing the torch or that knowledge?

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Well, um, I have encouraged a lot of people. I've whenever anyone wants to know what I do, I really try to go out of my way to help them. I've worked for Shepherd Hills Cutlery in Lebanon, Missouri for uh oh, over 30 years. Um maybe 30, maybe 25, but a long time. And they have a a uh show once a year. They sell a lot of case pocket knives, and um I do work for them, and they have a class up there that they teach kids. It's a free thing from uh I think from four year four or five years old to 16, and you can um sign up and take a class. And we've done this annual class for eight to ten budding artists who are interested in learning how to scrimshaw. And it's always a lot of fun. It's it's action-packed. And two years ago, um, we had some students not not turn up, and one of the employees of Shepherd Hills, actually three of their employees, kind of sat in on my class, and one of the one of the girls who um did that she just loved it. She was into it. So for the last couple of years, she's been in touch and getting better, and she just came for a week-long scrimshaw study down here to Kerrville, Texas, with her husband. And um so I'm I'm hoping she might be taking up the mantle for me. So too much pressure, too much pressure, but who knows? Uh, there's but it's it's not a complicated art form. If whalers on sailing ships can do it, then uh a lot of people can do it. It's just it just has a factor of staying with it and and getting past the learning curve.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

So yeah. Well, I mean, people were built different then too. I mean, it's like the I I can imagine being on a ship and not knowing what you're going to do to occupy your time for weeks on end. It's like, oh man, like I'm getting real bored.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

I might have years at a time.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yeah, might have undiagnosed ADD, like maybe I just need to scratch something. Well, I mean, it it like all these kids in in school that will like carve their names and things like that and uh and expletives in uh their desks uh should really just get into scrimshaw because you could get paid to do the same thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:17

And I get, I mean, for for my lifetime, you know, I was I've always asked, you know, why don't you do tattoos? And my my standard answer is I only work on dead stuff and I don't like the blood. And when whatever town you go into, there's there's tattoo artists all over the place. And if you have the tattoo, the ability to do a really good tattoo, you really have the ability to do good scrimshaw. So I would recommend if someone's out there not wanting the blood and the stuff anymore, to give Scrimshaw a shot.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

So uh is there so like uh you know, the knife making community has the knife makers guild and a bunch of other uh like state-run guilds and the ABS obviously is out there for bladesmithing. Is is there an organization that that encompasses all scrimshanders, or is there any real organization around the craft?

SPEAKER_02 41:16

There have been attempts uh in the past. Um none of them have really worked because most of us who scrimshaw we're we're we're just us at a desk by ourselves, and I I guess that's part of our personality. We're not we don't we're not really group joiners and things like that. So there's not um I mean the Scrimshaw Collectors, there uh I mean there are several websites where you can um look up. There's tons of YouTube videos on Scrimshaw that'll show you show you what to do. Um Sandy Brady, she she has a couple of videos out and she sells kits and does classes with um different groups, but we're not a we're not really an organized group.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Yeah, that makes sense. Uh so you know, like I I know that uh Blade Show uh supports a lot of um artists and people who like have knowledge sets that the industry in knives would be interested in. They do like uh master classes or demonstrations. If um if Blade ever reached out to you to do one of those uh or a series of them for their shows uh as as part of that uh the schedule, would you ever do it?

SPEAKER_02 42:38

I would certainly consider it, especially if it was the Texas show and I can get there in a few hours.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

A little bit different than the travel commitment to Atlanta, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:48

To Atlanta, yeah. I did that, I did that a lot of years to Atlanta, but um but no, I I want people to know about Scrimshaw and how to do it, so I I wouldn't say no to that probably.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Cool. Well, I don't have any sway really. Um, but uh but you know it's interesting. Uh I if you ever do any master classes or anything like that, you know, uh that's something that uh for me, I I really love engraving too. Um, but especially coming from a background where I was uh in pretty deep into jewelry making. Uh but it in engraving, as I think about that uh for my knives, really uh I just don't have the space and the time. I mean, and and also engraving has a a financial commitment, you know, getting all of your setups and your microscope and your materials and everything like that. And then also the learning curve of you know you just sharpen engravers, right? But what what I found in like this very uh uh primitive research into Scrimshaw when I was just uh trying to scratch some things out is it is actually very obtainable like the the tools and everything are not the primary focus it's like how you how you use those and what you do to the material uh which to me is like all it takes is time uh a lot of tenacity and some basic tools and you really can make some amazing stuff if you if you just take time right that that is exactly true I mean I've uh I've my area that I work on at home is you know probably this little eight by eight area of our back porch and um that's enclosed and uh I've got windows on two sides and the materials are just I mean if you get into the cutting and polishing and stuff then you need some shop space but a a scribe and a bottle of ink and a piece of something to work on and and you're set.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

It's it's not um the the tool I use is carbide steel but there's people who use um lots of different points some people use Xacto knives um some people use the like the GRS hand machine that you can they have adaptions for scrimshaw and especially if you want to do a lot of stippling technique then that's definitely faster than what I do. So I use I use mostly lime work just because um because I don't use the machine but there's uh you don't have to have that to learn to scrimshaw you just need and you don't even you don't even need all the colors you just need some black ink yeah and a sharp point.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Yeah and is it is it primarily Indian like black Indian ink that you're using or those are there other types of ink that work as well or kind of like what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 45:48

The black ink that I use is uh is made for the drafting pens that's the rapid rapidograph and um so in my mind it's um ground up into finer pigments and so you're not just putting the medium whatever that is in there you kind of got to get some of the pigment to go in those little tiny lines and uh I think of them as big you know big gouges that you're hollowing out and you got to get that ink to stick in there and so the so the the black India ink and also some of the inks that are used for Japanese watercolors are are are lush and beautiful blacks. And the color that I use is Windsor Newton artist watercolor pigments the professional ones uh have they have permanence ratings and so that's what I use for my color. And then I'm always putting a layer of Renaissance wax in between the layers and when I'm finished with the piece to I think I'm capping off those big gouges I'm making.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

So okay. So when you're when you're adding color in uh in order to isolate it do you use any like resist like are you using Renaissance wax and areas to like guard other areas from getting dyed or like what's what's like when you're doing color or things like that like what is uh what does that process look like well I always do the black first completely completely finish the black and if I'm going to put color I kind of over etch the black because I know I'm gonna be scratching some of that back out.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

So I finish the black I let that dry I put Renaissance wax on and then I scratch the area of the next darkest color and then I scratch that ink that let it dry wipe it off wax it again scratch the next color and depending on the layout or the design I might be like say it is a tiger or a lion and I'm mixing a couple of different colors to blend to blend the fur on the cat or something. So you can you can work those wet onto the piece let it dry and then you can get the blending how you want it. So but in general it's dark to light one color at a time and waxing in between that's uh that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

So um other than other than um working in knives um have you done any well and and your Hollywood uh um fame right are there any other pieces or things like that that have been like particularly impactful to you well it's it's always fun to be able to work on a whale's tooth for someone you know scrimshanders in whale's teeth so I I really enjoy doing the ships and things.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

I went there was a Mystic International Scrimshaw competition for quite a few years that uh I've gone out to and I got to go to the New Bedford whaling museum and walk on the Charles Morgan whaling ship and take some photographs of my own and so so I mean the the nautical aspect of it is uh I really enjoy doing some of the ships and that kind of thing because because of the history of scrimshaw so I do some black and white pieces or just the sepia tones so um and billiard balls, you know just fun putting globes on those and working on old mirrors and fossil walrus pieces that already were an artifact or something. And I did one recently for a a collector who's a friend of ours who uh it was the history of the Ididerod race on a fossil walrus ivory sled runner artifact. That's a lot to say. And and so it was uh and so the research on that you know I I like researching things and trying to get the history right if you're creating an art piece. So um so and lately I've been uh while I've been doing less shows I've uh because I have been scrimmshying for so long I've got chunks of ivory that I may have had here for 40 years that I knew what I wanted to put on them and just haven't taken the time to do it. So I'm working on what I call my legacy collection. We have uh two daughters and five grandkids and lots of nieces and nephews and so I'm trying to build up an inventory of pieces that uh you know if they want one they can each have one at some time when I don't have them anymore.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

So are are you going to make uh your legacy collection and then do any uh like exhibition or anything to show it off I hadn't even considered that uh I don't know right now they're just accumulating well get on that because I mean if you have a bunch of work to do um it's like something that interested me about that is uh um I I one of the reasons why I actually really like shows uh like knife shows is because of the exhibition quality of it. Like yeah sure you want to sell things and pay for the cost of the show and everything but really just to peacock and strut your stuff and say hey world this is like what I'm capable of. And in that same way, like if you have uh if you have like the the capstone to your career like these things that you want to uh really uh show off or flex your skills on or just to accumulate man it would be really cool just to make a show of it and to I I don't know like I mean like to that's that's interesting to me. Like I want to see it and I want to be a part I want to be a part of it. Like those those are areas where I don't know maybe it doesn't mean as much to you like well where were these people when I was uh like hitting the hard times and need to pay bills but uh but yeah that's interesting I I might yeah well I mean something that also is interesting uh inside of the uh vein of scrimshaw is you know Texas history is so uh Texas right and and I don't know that there's any there's any other state that has as strong as a connection to like uh their history and the the mythos of of things and uh it's really interesting uh to see when when artists do Texas history and exemplify that in engraving and whatnot like what uh the communities that that uh pop up around supporting them um you know I mean you could do work work uh like out the Alamo and things like motifs around that and probably donate I I I heard at least that they're uh they're rebuilding their museum down there. They are and uh you know something to think about you do some like real cool Alamo Davy Crockett Jim Bowie work and like you know submit it there and then you're immortalized inside of museums for all time for all Texans to see.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

I could there I just I I'm actually um we're trying to get a history museum uh heritage Heart of the Hills Heritage Center here in Kerrville for about six years I've been working with them trying to get a museum here and I'm on the board and we actually are working with the city of Kerrville to um remodel an old house and put it in there and one of our directors is Dr.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Don Fraser at our local Shriner College he's um he's in charge of the Texas Center and involved in all that story and he's working with the people of the Alamo also so um so could possibly get that done but yes the great republic of Texas is a is a subject all to its own yeah there's not that many uh high schools and colleges that teach Texas history as a uh a a credit system well here here in Kerrville it's getting underway yeah they have they have some amazing videos so yeah well if you um I I'll try to keep uh in touch with you be I mean I know a lot of uh like buddy Freemasons and whatnot who just love everything about the Alamo and uh you know Masonic history inside of uh Texas and whatnot too. So if I ever see something that you're doing for that I'll share it uh in those groups uh because you know everybody in especially in the the the Masonic world is a big history buffs uh and you know like with the with the history of the Masonic lodge supporting the Alamo uh and whatnot too it's a big deal so I mean that's that's all super cool to me. Yeah well and that's uh a a lot of the things I've done have been um some of the Masonic emblems put on oh knives and gun grips and things like that or or a policeman's badge or Texas Rangers badge or um uh that's all that's always fun to be able to help commemorate someone you know because that's important to them so yeah well I uh I hope that I can build some knives um and probably won't be ivory uh because I also know if I could get a hold of it but I'll build some knives with the the nicest material I can have for Scrimshaw and then I'll try to commission some work for you before you you hang up your tools and decide that I'm uh I'm not worth your time anymore.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

Well you you definitely know how to get a hold of me so let's make that happen.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Cool. Well it's just me uh kicking myself in the butt to get things done. I mean I my problem is is that every time I think about engraving and uh and scrimshaw it's not so much that um it's not so much that like the cost involved with it but it really has a lot more to do with like man can I make something good enough that I would ask you to put your work on it and it compares to your work. You know it's like I I you you leave a big wake in the scrimshaw world because uh I I think about like well can I do I do good enough work or can make something that really exhibits your artistry not not just mine.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

So well I I appreciate that but we uh I think the the most important thing about being an artist is you know we are all growing and uh we're all learning and at different paces and different things and so uh when your work and my work come together it's gonna be the right time so don't don't worry so much. It's a collaboration right let's say it's not gonna be the last piece next let's say maybe maybe in a few years that you do another piece. How's that?

SPEAKER_00 56:34

Yeah absolutely well I I'll give you my business when I when I have it to give you all right um so kind of on that note um one question I like to ask everybody um kind of as a last question in an interview is um when when it comes to new makers or new artists and uh you know particularly poignant advice that you could give them like if if if there's like one or two things that you think are really important from like everything that you've learned in your craft, what would it be to those um those craftsmen you know it it's hard for us to motivate ourselves and um it's it's not usually money that does it it's usually the work itself and I think that you we just have to sit down and do it.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

There's so many things that people don't want to invest in and and art is not like that. You have you have to take the time you have to learn it you have to love it you're gonna have bad days and you still have to sit down and work anyway. So I think just um just self-motivation is really difficult and however you can get that done is um if it's listen for me it's listening to music and just you know just just wanting to see that finished thing. So I guess my my best advice is just sit down and do it and on on a bad day go for a walk and then sit down and do it again. So I love I love gardens. I spend a lot of time out in the garden and um and then come inside and work.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Yeah tenacity I think is like the tenacity yeah yeah and and and a little bit of masochism right because I mean like all those long hours I can't even imagine for you like sitting there and you know manually pushing and scratching your work and how mu how tiring that has to be to like the upper body.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Yes my hands aren't the the arthritis in my hands and stuff isn't real nice but it's uh I I set myself in front of two beautiful windows and I don't and I look out all the time I don't concentrate on that one depth all the time and uh yeah get getting up and stretching it's it's uh gotta take care of that.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Well that that's awesome. I really do appreciate that. Um well I um I I have a million questions for you but I imagine that you have to get back to your real life. Um but uh you know uh for everybody listening uh Linda's old school uh the same way as her craft and so you can find uh her work uh everywhere on the internet if you look at uh look up her name but she doesn't have social media so if you want to get a hold of her for her work I will uh be posting up links to your website um and that that has contact details and I I I strongly encourage you um as listeners that if you're looking for somebody who does phenomenal work and who's willing to work uh with you uh from a budgetary perspective and everything there's always something that can be done uh in in embellishing uh your your own knives and everything or other works that you know Linda can help with so um if she if she's up to it and will take your commission then just remember she's semi-retired she mostly does her own work now so I mean she's she's put she's put in her time she's made her money that she uh she uh she mostly can from the craft so if you're gonna get in on it you got to really sweet talk her and maybe have some fresh macadamia nuts that's we're gonna deal that's funny yeah you're making me sound hard to work with I'm not hard to work with you're you you hey you have things to do right I mean I have things to do and places to go to see exactly and at some point in time you got to take retirement seriously right uh sure let's not take anything too serious I agree well uh yeah I mean so uh get get a hold of her uh talk to her I mean I've I've talked to her briefly about some uh some work uh offline and whatnot and uh I will be doing more of that so Linda I hope uh I hope that this uh interview has been uh beneficial to you uh it's been a humongous uh uh geek moment for me because I've just I've followed your work for a long time and I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

Well thank you very much Aaron and just thanks for getting in touch with me about this it's it's been fun. This is my first podcast ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

How about that? Well it's it's been an honor Linda uh you have a good rest of your day and uh we'll talk again soon. All right thanks Aaron thank you thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you were loved and God bless you