SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron Beer. And join me as we talk to other knife makers and craftsmen about anything and everything knives. I'm joined today by special guest Matt Martin of Vehemt Knives. He has a very strong social media presence, is a super knife maker, and I'm really honored to have him on the show today. Matt, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

What's happening, Aaron? Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah, absolutely. So for everybody who doesn't know you, Matt, can you give a brief history of you on the personal level and then like what got you into knives?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Yeah, um, I mean, the two are pretty uh closely intermingled, really. But uh I really got into professional knife making uh around 2008. And uh I'm a maker by nature. I come from a lineage of makers, just tinkers. You know, we make everything in our household. Um the jokesman said the only new stuff I even own is stuff I've made because I'd buy everything else secondhand and fix it. Uh so it wasn't long before I started dabbling in knives, super passionate about it. Um, you know, it's it's one of those you uh like the scene in the Magnificent Seven, I think it's uh Brit who throws that switchblade in the gunfight. You know, that's pretty strong impression on a little kid. Watch, wow man, that was cool. And uh knife culture Rambo obviously was big when I was a kid. So I was, I was always into it. So it was a matter of time before I got into making them. Um and then tinkered with it for a little while. And then uh I had a career as a contractor in the uh unexploded ordnance field. Uh it was a UXO tech, we were called, and traveled the world uh like uh Uncle Sam's garbage man picking up bombs and making them go away, left around on ranges and stuff like that. And um, I was still making knives when I'd be home then. You know, I wouldn't be home about six weeks a year and not consecutively. So as one contract would end, I'd come home and then I'd leave again, and sometimes I'd be gone for a year at a time or you know, six months, whatever. Um and so I would come home and I'd make knives and I'd take them to my crew, which they're contractors, so they kind of scatter to the wind when a contract's up. And we owe a huge amount of our current success to the EOD UXO community because they proliferated our brand like out the gates kind of organically. So when my wife said, it's time for you to come home, and we're gonna have to figure something else out because she didn't want me on the road. Our daughter was getting older. Um, they couldn't come visit on domestic job sites anymore. And so she's like, you got to come home. I said, well, let's try giving this knife making thing a shot, you know, full time. So we we were selling knives uh as early as probably 2008, and then in 2013, this will be my 10th year uh in December. Um, I walked off my last grid job in chest deep snow at Lowry Baum and Gunnery Range, uh, the former Fleeburger, anybody knows that, uh, former Lowry Baum and Gunnery Range. Uh I it was 19 below, and some uh office shuffling went around where uh team leader said, Hey, uh, you know, do you want to take off and go pursue your career at this very moment? And I looked at the boss, the senior UXL officer. I said, Are we good? He said, Any job anywhere in the world. I said, Okay, cool, then I'm out of here. And that was it. I drove home and uh my wife Jenna met me in the driveway of our house and handed me a beer before I even got out of the Jeep and I slammed it and that was it. And so then I was a full-time knife maker, man. And that uh is a really it's a pretty harrowing experience. It's it's very free, you know. Like uh I get to pick what hundred hours a week I work. That's pretty nice, I guess. But uh, you know, but you know, I kind of have a little bit of command over my own destiny, and and I I think having that agency is uh is a whole hell of a lot better than uh having a tug on someone's pant leg when you want to take a leak, you know? And so yeah, that's uh um other than that, like uh I enjoy long walks on the beach. And no, I'm uh avid motorcyclist. Uh I love jeeping, I love being outdoors, but I love being outdoors with a motor around me also. So yeah, yeah, that's pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So what would you say like your largest inspiration is? Because I, you know, I've looked at your work for quite a while now, and I I really dig the like Vietnam era of uh or style of of blades that you make. But like what where did where does like your inspiration start and what got you into like the current aesthetic that you have today?

SPEAKER_01 4:57

I mean, it's that's a pretty multifaceted answer, I suppose. Um war blades were cheap growing up, right? You know what I mean? And so my grandfather, who I just lost earlier this year, um would frequently take me to the surplus store to get camping gear, and and he would usually, you know, give me a knife or something like that, or you know, he would order from you know one of the catalogs back in the day. And and so I just kind of, or even at swap meets and whatnot. So they were abundant, right? So you get these war knives that were pretty abundant, they all had a story. And then as I as I got older, there was something in, and I mean, you can talk to service members today, and and they'll they'll agree with this, uh, you know, a majority of them at the very least. But there's something very inspiring about some of the world-changing feats that took place, you know, ensconced in leather and metal and wood. And uh there was, you know, even though it was considered technology at the time, the things that these guys had, uh, by today's standards, it was pretty crude, the same way a club would have been technology to a caveman, but by today's standards would be, you know, equally primitive. So uh that inspiration of this wood, leather, metal concept and my obsession. Now, even though our company is named vehement knives, which implies a certain level of passion, right? That's intensely passionate. Um, it's that's a euphemism for probably what would be an unhealthy obsession. Uh, this isn't something I want to do. This is something compulsory. This is something I have to do. So it's you get the idea, you know, sometimes the inspiration will come from a video game. Sometimes uh, you know, the white whale I was chasing as a younger maker was uh the fit and finish of uh Buster Werensky or Bob Loveless, even, you know what I mean? Uh, you know, even Steve Johnson and Jim Merritt, um, a lot of coming out of the Loveless Shop. You had these just flawless, flowing knives with this kind of captivating design. Um, so you you kind of juxtapose those two on there, like the inspirational side of um old, you know, antique military aesthetic mixed with this obsessive need to have everything just so, but not overly complicated. You know, in our knives, we use primarily, I mean, 99% of the time, we use micarta because it's a practical material, um, versus I would rather be recognized as a good knife maker by using the most banal raw materials than be applauded as a great knife maker with uneven grinds, uh, you know, loose finish, whatever, because I used some exotic handle material or bolster or guard material. Um, so I basically lit any potential laurels on fire underneath me. So I had to just constantly strive to get everything as tight and right as I could with as little embellishment as possible. And and so that's I would say those are, you know, the three-prong attack. It's the obsession, the um, the fact that I've cursed with an eye for detail. Um, it does produce a better product, but it's a very frustrating albatross around my neck because it means I I see the world in a in a very small scale. Um, and and then of course, you know, kind of the inspiration you'll see a lot of our kind of throwback war blades, uh, just because, man, you know, if these guys could do it wearing leather soled shoes, um, then hell, uh, there's not much that I can't do in my day-to-day living, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Um, you know, it's interesting that uh you have an eye for the past and um and uh think aesthetically about uh uh about the simplicity, right? And and I I agree uh like holistically that you should be able to take very uh simple materials and turn those into beautiful things before you worry about taking things like rare materials and turning those into beautiful things. Because I think so often people think that well, I'll use Damascus or I'll use a mammoth ivory or something like that and uh produce a knife that's uh desirable or sellable simply because of the materials that are in it. But for me, it's almost like slapping a lipstick on a pig. Like if you you know, if if you if you really spend the time on the fundamentals, that knife um should speak volumes uh to the craftsmanship versus uh having all those uh the doodads, you know what I mean? 100%.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Uh it it falls into the second half of the you can either blind them with brilliance or baffle them with BS, you know what I mean? And I I couldn't agree more. And I I see a lot of guys that have tremendous potential and bright futures ahead of them, but they get so attached to whiz-bang materials. Um, and and I and I'm sorry, like Time Ascus doesn't make the knife, Mokume doesn't make the knife, Damascus doesn't make the knife. You know, you make the knife, the maker makes the knife. And I I wish there was in this social media culture um in our industry, maybe across all industries, um, less about popularity and and more about you know hard-earned quality. Because uh when things get rocky, a lot of these makers, it's very unfortunate, like I say, they they have bright potential. But I I watch their followership kind of vaporize because it's it's it's it's undermined a little bit. It doesn't have, you know, it's an inverted pyramid versus a conventional pyramid. Um, and you have to build on those fundamentals before you can, you know, kind of like you alluded to, start embellishing an already well-cultivated skill set with exotic materials versus the other way around. Hey, the pros are doing this, I'm gonna do that. Yeah, you sell a couple knives up front, but the the bubble bursts inevitably.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's uh I've suffered from that too in in some ways, uh, because I so I I mean I work a day job and and I've had the uh the the blessed ability to work on my craft, like working on the quality of my knives without having to um make a customer suffer uh for that, right? Um so like my my entry into the market was with a pretty good knife, right? I mean I I didn't I sold some to like friends and family, uh, but for the most part, I spent most of my time out here tinkering and making things and working on finishes and prototyping uh things that I wanted to do. Um and it wasn't something I charged anybody for. And so now you know, now I I get into the market where you know I joined the guild, I'm going to shows and everything. And there is uh it's not the same culture around accepting makers if they're already uh you know good walking into the industry as if they um like as if people saw them when they were struggling and started out. I like for me, I don't have a humongous following um and a lot of like a large customer base um simply because I kind of just stepped onto the scene making a pretty a pretty good quality knife. And I I've noticed at least that it's it's slow going to build up the social media and the customer base and everything, doing all of that behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

To get a little inside baseball, I guess, but I guess that's the point of this whole podcast. But really, I mean, I can definitely understand your perception from your perspective. And I have uh just a ton of sympathy for makers, good makers, trying to make it today in social media. Now that uh the TV shows, you know, knife or death, forged in fire and stuff have come out. Obviously, the knife making culture has grown with it in popularity. And then you mix social media into that, and holy cow, is it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff? I mean, there is just so many people, there are so many people vying for that recognition. And yeah, it is, I I mean, it's as as random as catching Elvis's handkerchief now. You know what I mean? It's it's really something, and I feel really bad. I think I got in at a good time because it was in the forum days, um, you know, and it it just didn't, you couldn't promote yourself as easily as you can today. So you're there's a lot of noise, background noise, when trying to make your brand. But the antidote to that, and I tell a lot of up-and-coming makers now who are trying to get a foothold in the marketplace, is the quality of knife, and this kind of goes hand in hand with your point, is people want to get it on the ground level. Well, that that ground level is it's it's culture. So it's culture building. And what I mean by that is this personal investment that the customer has with your brand. They they either they see you begin from the ground floor or they align with your values or you share common interests as far as you know, exotic hobbies or whatever. But it's culture is the number one thing. If you don't want to play the algorithm gang or game and you don't want to have um to do the right hashtags to get the right people to look at your stuff, then what you need to do is you need to find a couple like-minded people. Never chase anything. Don't try to chase the chat the trends. You'll always be behind. Stick to your guns, and the right customers will show up that align with your values and promote that positive. And some people even promote a negative culture. There's brands out there that are outside of knives, but knife adjacent that promote a negative culture, and that works for them. They gather a lot of trolls. Uh, it's not a way I would go about it, but it's worked for them over the years. Um, in our case, we promoted a very positive, very transparent culture. And through that, we gained supporters, which is a term that we use to kind of flip the bird to social media instead of calling them followers. We gain supporters. And uh, and through doing that, that allowed us to rise and at the same time put produce the best level of quality that we can at the same time. But I would say culture. Culture is the number one way. If you want to grow your social media presence, then you need to, there needs to be something more than just the product. People love being a part of something. And if that means following you from your day one, I'm gonna walk out here and film me, make my very first knife, or if that means that you're already an accomplished maker and show up on the scene and say, this is what I'm all about, you're gonna draw people.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah. And well, I I think like observationally, like I love your company culture. Uh and but I you know, talking to you, being able to talk to your wives, uh hearing about the people who um admire you and your work, and also looking at your customers, uh, you can really tell uh the quality of people, right? And uh you know, what what I mean by that is that you have uh vehement uh followers and supporters, right? Uh I mean they uh love your product, they love what you stand for, and uh and they share that actively. Like if you look at anything, I mean I'm sure you do, but uh like uh if a if uh the listener base looks at Matt's uh uh Facebook page, like everybody is posting stuff like every day. There is something that they are doing that where they're living vehemently, and and that to me is very impressionable. It's like the the knives is like a scything, right? It's that community, that that brotherhood or whatever that people want to be a part of. And I find myself um at times, you know, if I if I'm like watching uh like your Facebook uh group and everything like that, I'm like, man, like that's pretty cool. I want to be a part of that too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Like, and and you know, it it happens so organically. We're really fortunate because we just kind of let it all hang out, you know, and and the right people showed up because I can say whatever I want. If we had a bunch of A-holes walk through the door, you know, that's who you're saddled with, and then you're gonna be constantly, you know, fighting drama on Facebook or something like that. And instead, like just these amazing people from the days that we were making $200 knives to today we're making $2,000 knives. Like, I it's the right people showed up, and like I don't know, man. Like I they took the torch from my hand and ran with it. And this amazing community kind of sprang up. And I hate to just keep waxing on about it, but they did it. You know, we opened the door and they came inside and made it a party. And it's a party where everybody's having fun and it's it's pretty inclusive, it's free of politics, it's free of BS. And uh, you know, we've had to swing around an iron fist maybe twice in the last 10 years, really, that we've been on Facebook. So um yeah, it's uh that's it. And there's times, Aaron, where I get in there and I'm like, man, I want to be a part of this. Like, wow, look at these guys are doing crazy things, you know, and then you realize you're like, oh my God, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yeah. But you know, for uh like, I don't know, uh observationally, I that comes that comes from you, right? Like every time I've talked to you, you're just like full of like woo-hoo, right? Like you you exude a positivity, um, support, um, guidance. And I I think that when people get enough of that and know that there's like a, you know, I don't know, in this, in this age of uh of uh you know, like kind of woke culture or whatever, it's like safe spaces has sometimes a negative or wimpy connotation. But in in this manner, I really feel like even as myself and as a fan of yours, I feel safe in this space where you can like talk about ideas, you can you can share failures and things, and it's accepted, and it's it's accepted because it's a normal part of human uh progression. And that's something like to you to to for uh you like I I never feel like I'm coming with you with anything, like maybe it's a stupid question, but you're like, no, no, no, it's actually a really good idea. Like, um, like the like let me substantiate this for you and then let's build on this idea together.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

That's I Aaron, honestly, I think that's because knife making is is really important to me. Um, and it's it's fundamentally important to humankind, and even historically speaking, you know what I mean? So it's so important to me that like I abhor gatekeeping. I can't stand it. Like when or or snarky comments or you know, whatever. I I really can't stand it because we're all on the same path. We all started in the same garage with the same single incandescent light bulb, you know, solitarily hanging above our heads, casting a shadow everywhere we stood. We all this is a very equal playing field. And at this point, I have to look that, oh my God, I can't believe, you know, I've been doing this for uh what 15 years now? I mean, it went by in the blink of an eye. Well, I learned a lot of things in 15 years. And if I want to see the next generation of makers continue this amazing, vital craft of humanity, although it's a little bit an effigy now, let's be honest, but it's still important. If I want to see them go further, why do I want to watch them, you know, step in the same pitfalls that I went through? I want to see everybody carry the torch farther. Let's let's get through the basics, what I consider the basics, or whatever my experience is, whatever level any maker's at, whatever level you're at when you call and like, hey, how do I do this or whatever? Like, I want to share that so that you can skip the learning curve. And my biggest hope is that you go farther. Long as you share your learning curve with the next generation. You know what I mean? So I think it's it's so fundamentally important to me that I it's worth passing that down. It's worth providing, and I understand the connotation. Make people feel comfortable, you know, make them come out of their show, make them feel more adventurous in the things that they're doing. You know, that's uh that's important.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah. I mean, uh I, you know, they say that there are no stupid, like the only stupid question is the one that you don't ask. And I I am okay, I'm the kind of guy that's like, no, there are legitimately stupid questions. Like, don't get me wrong. However, everybody asks stupid questions. And unless you feel like unless you feel comfortable asking them, unless you feel comfortable acknowledging that there is um inherent ignorance and things like that, and in your worldview, right? Unless you accept that, then how are you gonna grow? It's it that's uh that's not just a knife anecdote, it's like a life one. And and to me, like knives are so philosophical because I I learn stuff about myself, the mantle of who I am, every time I go out into the shop. Every time I say I'm not going to go out in the shop, you know, every time I'm maybe a little bit judgy of somebody's work, I'm like, ah man, like I feel bad about myself doing certain things. And it's all related to like what happens with in knives. So I've grown a lot as a person in this craft because I think it's allowed me to be uh more forgiving, uh more accepting, and also more um encouraging towards other makers because that's also what I want. It's like that the golden role of do onto others. Well, it's that's uh something that is very um uh felt for me in knives.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Totally. And and and you can take that to a car show, you know, where you've got these guys that have eighty thousand dollar builds, and you have the you know, shade tree mechanic who just built his first hot rod, and it could be rough around the edges, but you'd be like, hey man, that's amazing. You know, I can see how much work you put into this and that you're so passionate about it. So, yeah, I mean, I could carry across any walk of life, whether you're at a bar, a deli, or, you know, wherever. It's it's just a little bit of sympathy. Uh, you know, I don't even know if sympathy is the right word, but just understanding of effort and particularly understanding of effort when it comes to creation. Because I'll tell you what, dude, it's effing hard to make something from nothing. It takes a lot mentally, it takes a lot emotionally when it doesn't go right. Um, you know, and physically, though, this is the least physical job I've ever had as far as a vocation goes. Um, my I'm starting to develop problems in my hands, man. You know what I mean? So it does take its toll. You're on your feet, you know, for 10, 12 hours a day. I don't even sit down in my shop, but uh not for any process other than engraving, I guess, when I'm screwing around with that, just because I like to have as much stability as possible. But uh yeah, it's uh I don't know. Yeah, I I I think I think you hit the nail on the head. And I think I think you are getting the most out of this that you possibly can, because I tell you what, awards, accolades, yes, they are achievements, but there's a very hollow, you know, post-acolade letdown, like the minute that's over. So if that's all you're striving for, that's those are very empty steps that you're taking versus you know, kind of savoring the whole craft and and really, you know, making something from nothing as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Yeah. I mean, there there's the uh the economics of knives, right? So I I'm a knife maker, I I make knives, they cost money. I try to sell them to be able to recoup the cost to make more knives, right? But uh honestly, there's a portion of me, like because I've I I I vacillate with sales, I vacillate with um uh popularity. Um my my my life with our our daughter, because she's a heart transplant kid, uh like they my family gets top priority, right? So maybe I'll I'll like I'll say okay, like I can update social media a little bit, but really honestly, my time in the shop is limited because I got I got family priorities, and that's most important to me. Um even even with all that being said, sales are not the accolade for me, even though that's like important to be able to feed the beast. Uh awards I don't really care about. And even sometimes like the you know how many likes you get on social media is not um is not a definitive um measure of you as a person or your work. Um, because I know, man, I know a lot of of really good knife makers that have a very, very light social media presence. Yeah, you know, they they sell as much as they want to, they're happy with their work, and they're incredible makers. And so I guess it's like trying to find that um what what does validation look like to you? And if it's vapid, then probably looks uh towards things that are more substantiative because that I think that's what carries us through the craft on those during those low times is to really find something to dig into. And it it might not always be that everybody else has an opinion about your work, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Totally. And like when it comes to validation, I mean, when I see members of our uh Facebook group uh do a plug, we it's a pretty small group. We our page, like our Facebook page has got a handful of likes, so that's pretty respectable, I think. But our group is is only like 3,000 people or something like that. And uh, but when I see these guys helping each other out without me as a mediator in any way, you know, somebody uh gets a new job or has a baby and somebody sends them one of our knives out of their personal collection or even just something nice, but because they made this relationship through the group and share these, you know, morals or outlook on life, whatever it is. When I see that happening, when I see random acts of kindness under our umbrella, then I say, oh, that's that's validation. That feels good, you know, and then you get these messages back. And this isn't, I'm not trying to self-aggrandize it. I'm just this is real, this happens. Where I get these thank you messages. Thank you for opening up this space and and creating this atmosphere where we can have, you know, such good friends and connections. And I go, oh, that is a lot better than a brass plaque. Like, I don't care who you are, that is a much more substantial feeling than um you know having a piece of acrylic on your work on your desk.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, so like last year, um, my stepdaughter, she lost her her child. Um, I think she was born prematurely, um, or you know, early, and and and we lost her. And uh I was making some knives and like populating them to try to just raise some money for her for medical expenses and just to help support her and her partner uh while they were going through everything. And you know, like Alex Harrison and uh uh and Jeffrey Mitchell and Dutch and a few other people were like, hey, like, do you need some help with this? And and donated knives, and we created a little auction site and we sh uh shared it everywhere. And I man, we were able to raise a few grand uh for them uh in that time of of need and everything. And I uh it meant a lot to me because I think it was the first time where like unsolicited the knife community really reached out in a time where it was difficult for the family, and we could just like shower um my my daughter with a a little bit of support and acknowledgement that her loss is uh uh great for for her and everything. And I like I I left uh that kind of experience just um being very impressed by us as an as a knife community. And so anytime like good cog cause raffles or things like that come up, I try to, if I have like something extra on my uh on my desk uh to to help contribute towards that. Because I mean, what what better way uh to support each other than crowdsourcing, right? And what it's more it's more powerful than you know the best insurance policy or um or you know things like that or money in the bank account. Like, I mean, really honestly, having the support of all these people, it's situational and it's very powerful.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

It is, and it really transcends the dollar amount too, because I it just sends this very loud and clear message of, hey, you're not alone, we've got you. This is the only thing we could think to do because it's our specialty. So here are knives to raise money. But the reality is is you the recipient has this kind of warm blanket around him, like we've got you. And they and they don't feel alone. You know, that's the ultimate goal. Um, and the dollar amount is is the dollar amount, you know, depending on how things shake out. But the overall, it I tell you what, it is uh like almost uh close to being like a tangible manifestation of thoughts and prayers, you know what I mean? And I'm using quotes for that. But it this is action. This is people taking action and people saying, hey, we're behind you. And and that's that's pretty powerful. That gives people sometimes all they need is the encouragement to take the next step because they're so late with whatever's going on in their world, whatever tragedy is hitting. And once they take that next step, then man, the momentum can start and they can, you know, resume life and hopefully on a positive tangent. So yeah, I think crowdsourcing, I think the knife community as a whole, even outside of uh the syndicate and whatnot, I I I've it's I've been on both ends, Aaron. I uh um I supply, and I'm sorry that I missed yours. I don't spend nearly enough time on on social media to even be aware of a lot of stuff, but I can tell you we supply a fair amount. Almost dropped an S bomb right there. Uh we supply a fair amount of of good cause raffle knives and donation knives, a significant amount. We'll we'll even go that far. Um, because hey, man, if you have the ability, you have the responsibility, and you know, we want to continue to do our part to a community that's been so good to us for the last you know 15 years.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Yeah, well, I mean, you have a lot of my respect for that. I mean, I man, I don't I don't know what to say because it's uh uh there's a lot of times when um I don't think that people have the answers uh to like what they're gonna do next, especially when finances are a thing. And you know, in in a small way um where we can crowdsource that to me that's a that's a big deal. Because, you know, I've been I've been blessed that uh money has not been the primary driver for um a little while now. Although, you know, it does it does I guess it doesn't matter how much money you make, you can always uh find ways to spend it. But we like I've always been able to put uh clothes on my kids' backs and food in their mouths and a roof over their head. And so for me, those are like the essentials, and everything else is um like how how do we find ways to take what we earn um and what we're blessed with and turn that into blessings for other people. And one of those ways, obviously, is knives for me. So like I I'm all all on board with that whenever there's a a good cause that comes up. So it's really just tur turning that same momentum that I've had in my life around and trying to help others others with it as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

It feels good, you know. Jason too and DLT, um, he's our sole DLT trading. He's our DLT trading.com, he's our uh sole distributor um by design. I had several and I ended up pairing back because it was just easier to feed one mouth. Um and through that relationship we became good friends. And and he just a little very, you know, sometimes the wisest phrase is the is the simplest, right? In a very Mark Twain kind of way. But uh he's like, when you're a kid, you like getting stuff. And when you're an adult, that you get that same feeling from giving stuff, and there's just a lot of truth in that. And uh, you know, we just it's been a rough year. We had a you know, I lost my grandfather in January, and then in uh February, I lost my dear friend uh Todd Wolinsky of True Saber Knives, and it was unexpected. Um everybody had just been talking to him, you know, as recent as that day. And uh he that that was the end of his uh his living story. And his wife was saddled with uh, you know, they had just been married for a couple of years, and and uh she wanted to give them an honorable send-off. And the bill came in that 13,000 bucks, if I'm not mistaken. And the knife community came together through uh To the Edge, uh, which is a nonprofit that uh I'm uh co whatever, I don't know. It's me and Jake Mahler. Um but to the edge, Jake does he did all this work for it. But through his work and the the kindness of so many knife makers and the um unyielding support of the community as a whole, um, we're able to completely cover Todd's um funeral expenses. Yeah, and and that was a big that was a big bill. That was and that was a big deal. And everybody showed up not because I was there, not because there was any brand power or anything like that. Everybody showed up b because Todd was a great guy, and because that is the type of character that the best part of the knife community is made of.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yeah, no, that's uh that's super cool. I mean, even even in the the eyes of uh tragedy and everything, um, there's there's small like whispers of uh relief that come in. And uh I it's uh it's good to be a part of that, but it's good to see that. And I think that that's part. I mean, but I don't know. Knives are knives, right? Um like other crafts are other crafts. Yeah, but that the the human condition, the uh the you know, the spirituality, faith, belief, um uh, and reliance, not only uh from you know, from a religious perspective, but also as a like a human uh compassion and everything, to me is just um uh that's where it's at. At the end of the day, we're people like a knife is a knife, but it's made by a person. Oh, and weird people.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Like this is a a land of misfit toys. I mean, that's that's why there's so many different walks of life in the knife community. Everything from you know, congressmen to uh I'm you know recovering drug addicts, which sometimes are the same person, even. You know what I mean? But uh it's it's uh it's because we all it's my belief, anyways. This is just my opinion, not any way substantiated fact by research, but uh we're all a little weird. We're all a little socially misfit. And there is comfort being around other weirdos, even if they're a completely different flavor. I mean, we are a soda fountain of bizarre personality types.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah, but that keeps it interesting, right? I and I I really like talking to people. Like I'm I I I have the gift of gab, I guess. Um, and I just like it's fascinating to me just to be able to talk to people, uh, get to know them, and then also figure out where we um align or misalign, whether it's knives or politics or things like that. Like, I mean, really, I'm no I'm a no-hold spar type of guy. Um, but really what uh at the end of the day, I I I I really like to just know a person because it gives me a lot of empathy uh for them to be able to put myself in in their shoes and walk for a while. And uh, you know, whether you have uh an errant scratch on your blade or not, to me, some sometimes doesn't matter so much as like, okay, well, you know, were you were you under the gun when you when you got that thing? Or like, yeah, I don't know. Like it's it's like the reasons behind things that I'm interested in, not so much that it happened, but how did it happen? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 39:02

There's a story. Every every scratch has a story, every, you know, little detail is yeah, yeah, I I totally agree. And, you know, like you, I actually would rather talk to somebody who doesn't share my opinions because that's how you see further in the world. You know what I mean? That's how you get light shed on dark corners, um, you know, versus the echo chamber of the social media networks that you know you're only surrounded by people who agree with you. And that I don't really get down on sycophantism, you know what I mean? So that's uh yeah, no, and having so many diverse walks of life allows you to broaden your horizons. Hey, man, that that's cool that you support that. Tell me why. You know, what what's your reasoning? Maybe I can understand it better. Maybe I don't even know that I support your belief in whatever it is yet until you shed some light on it.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Yeah. Well, kind of go going back to um a comment that you made about gatekeepers. Um, I I share the same kind of um uh sentiment. I I I really hate uh uh I really hate everything that seems to have some glass ceiling to it. Um and uh for for one reason or another, people feel like it's it's appropriate to hold people back in one way or another because of some reason.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Insecurity is the reason. I don't mean to cut you off here, but that's the reason.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

So yeah, no, I mean, and I uh like I I I I agree. Um I also think it's the machine too, because I you know, I I know some strong knife makers who are very just you know, in every other way, shape, and form, they're just uh really great. But then there's this uh side where like you you don't want to praise somebody too much because you don't want them to get a big ego or you want don't want uh you know them to surpass you or whatever. And I um on the ego side, like for me, I I will always temper a certain portion of my praise with the reality that there's always ways that you can improve, right? Right. And so so I I mean I have no problem with if somebody wants to show me their work, for instance, uh telling them, well, this these are things that are really great about it. But you know, it's like the the the the ego side of it is something that I don't care about because I think that that is um I think that that's a uh it weeds itself out where if if you get praise uh and and you take it the wrong way and you stagnate and then you you die off because you got so like overwhelmed with the praise that you just stopped stopped advancing, then it's a self-solving problem, right? Um I'm looking I'm looking to encourage people and allow them to uh and allow that nurturing to um continue to spur them on, not to um not not that I care. It's like once it leaves my mouth, once that like if I can be positive about things, it's it's in their ear. What they do with it after that is like the is the continuation of that gift, uh if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Yeah, yeah, I there I tell you, the critiquing knives is my least favorite thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Now, like on a guild technical committee, I would uh uh appreciate the position, and I wouldn't have as hard a time as a new maker saying, hey, tell me what you think about my work. And it's sometimes it's so rough that it would require an overhaul, but you don't want to impart that because it would be discouraging, right? You know what I mean? So you you try to find things, or at the very least, present them with solutions to things that you can tell they're trying but struggling with. The things they don't see, uh, there may not be, and I'm talking about, you know, new makers where, you know, plunges are crooked, grind lines are, you know, convex, flat, uneven, you know, and you know, it was finished with asphalt. When it becomes too much, you just want to encourage them to stick with it. And I've kind of coined a phrase um uh accidentally if we were just hanging out at a knife event. And I I put it to him this way. So this is how, like to in your example, this is how I temper praise with uh kind of giving them planting the seed to go further and keep going. And I and I just say, I say, look, man, I mean, the difference between a decent knife and a great knife is the last six hours you spend on it, last four to six hours you spend on it. Um, you can you can roughly gnaw anything out that's knife shaped. But if you really want to get better, then then vector in on every surface and every transition between planes and and kind of work on perfecting that. And you And chase it with a Zen-like patience for the rest of your life and never achieve it. You know what I mean? But that what a ride. I mean, that's a that's a fun place to be because you get to look back to your catalog and see how far you've come. But yeah, that's how I that's how I that's how I impart that. I just tell them, I say, look, man, you know, the only difference between a decent knife and a great knife is the last four to six hours you spend on it.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Yeah. And if you only spend three hours on it, then maybe maybe it's the last uh 60 minutes. But you know, uh kind of to that point, you know, I I think it also uh has a lot to do with uh like when you're giving feedback. You can break knife making apart into uh several different uh segments, right? Like the fundamentals of knife making are um like blade design, uh profiling, um, and and heat tree, right? So like do you do you have uh and bevel grinding, right? Like do you have the the fundamentals down where um you know like symmetry, for instance. Like symmetry is something that you you can fix if you can lay out your work properly, right? If you're yes, yeah, lay out like there there are some pretty they're pretty straightforward or rudimentary things that you can do to fix it. So as long as you're on the right path with your like your blade, like your bevel grinding, you can usually just give somebody a little bit of a bump here or there and say, hey, maybe think about this instead. And you know, fixable. Um like design, I man, I've seen some real like real awful uh blade designs. And it's like from from from start to finish. I'm just like, I just don't know how practical this is. But um in in general, I'll take a step back and say, hey man, like the maybe like the fundamentals are there, like your profile looks good and things like that. Maybe you want to think uh inside of that the fundamentals about um your your pattern, right? Or your your profile or whatever. And I can I can kind of break it down from there where it's not being super critical, but it's giving them uh a little bit more granularity around the basics of knife making. But then when you get into like when you when you have a buddy who's kind of like like, hey, tell me what you think about this thing, and you're like, man, the knife is mostly good, but if you want me to really like pick it apart, um there's there's gaps in your in your uh in your handle material somewhere, or you I can see pins in your bolsters, or you know, your solder joints not really that great, or you know, you left uh previous git grit scratches here, here, here, and here. You can you can even give them ideas on how to problem solve. But at some point in time, like knife making is really about saying, I want to make this thing, and then you have to problem solve your way through the entire experience, right? Every every blade. Yeah, and and yeah, I mean it's it's not just it's not just learning and getting to an echelon where you do that with everything, it's like every single iteration of whatever you're making always always is a process of learning. And if you're if you're not learning something, then um you're stagnating. Like I I started getting into uh pocket knives um a few years back, and I've kind of slowly been ramping that up, but pocket knives is is like especially the spring knife or slip joint mechanism is a completely different beast than than just doing a fixed blade. Um not saying that not saying that they are they're not uh fundamentals about knife making that don't uh you know translate to both, but it's just a different thing that you have to focus on when you're when you're thinking about a mechanism and certain standards of fit and finish.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah, I mean, uh you get to argue that that's like car versus motorcycle. Yeah, they're both conveyances, yeah. They both have internal combustion engines, but oh my goodness, the challenges are are diff vastly different between the two. Um, yeah, no, I there's that's uh folders, man. That is, yeah, we have this cue, like our order list, and and this isn't even like humble brag. It's this is an albatross hanging around my neck. You know, we reopened the books up and got overwhelmed, and it's difficult for me to experiment um outside of, I mean, this is my full-time job. I go home and I make other stuff on my time off or, you know, go do things. So the the shop time 24-7 when it was my part-time job, um, or not 24-7, but you know, the late nights or whatever, those are reserved kind of for special occasions. I'm dying to get through this order list, which is just slowly getting there, um, but to start experimenting with folders. I am, I have got lockback designs that I am just dying to turn into real things and I've started amassing little tools. Um, Tyler Turner was kind enough to hook me up with some uh literature on the subject. And so I'm I'm just chomping at the bit to get there. And it's still a sore spot for me because I'm like, how have I not been able to make the time to do this? And then I remember, oh yeah, I am making other kinds of knives the other 12 hours a day. Um so yeah, yeah, that's uh one of those things.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

But yeah. So on uh when we were talking with Alex, he was uh you know, we went over his uh uh his I forget what he calls it, his war wash, right? And that it was a uh you know, a play on your on your tiger lips. Can you uh can you give me a little bit of background, like why did you name it tiger lips? And what made you think about like doing uh this form of like etch finish that you did? Like, I mean, what what's what's the story behind it?

SPEAKER_01 49:46

This is the dumbest story ever. Uh so this it started off. We had a um knife called the V Heemath, you know, kind of an amalgamation, a bastardization of our name and a and something large, right? So this is one of our earlier designs. It was a recurved tanto, just kind of ridiculous in all aspects. Neat, and you could definitely tell where my head was. This was in like the zombie apocalypse craze before everything turned lime green, but not long before, right? So I'm like, oh man, you know, this is cool, you know. And so I made this big crazy knife and I wanted to impart some kind of like really battle-scarred if this was the last knife on earth, and it's obviously it's chopped through Buick's and every kind of steel institution door to get in and scavenge the food that was left behind. And so I wanted this kind of worn finish beyond just throwing it in a tumbler. So I, you know, you see like Kiko Matsuda's work, and uh he has this more artistic, obviously, an acid and a resist to create this pattern on there. And I'm like, well, I wonder if I can adapt that to make this look kind of battle-scarred. So I did that, and eventually I did a uh like a Mac V Sog style uh six-inch, you know, uh knife, you know, um Ben Baker type. And and in doing that, I was like, well, I'm gonna kind of stretch these scars out and make kind of a Vietnam era tiger stripe pattern. So on the Behemoth, it was called um Apocalypse Wash. You know, that was back in, I don't know, this probably 14 years ago, maybe. Or no, not 14, probably, oh geez, maybe it was. It's been a while. Anyways, so hang on, I'm plugging my phone in because it just told me I'm at 5%. And I'm hoping that this charger works. Yep, we're good. Um, so because that was called Apocalypse Watch, and then it became like a uh a tiger stripe, um, we we just called it tiger lips around the shop internally. This was not intended to be an official name or uh marketing title or anything. We just didn't know what else to call it, and I couldn't come up with anything witty before the public had heard it. So it became uh it became tiger lips. And the I it it added a cool element to that specific kind of Vietnam conflict inspired knife, and it just took off. Like people really embraced it. And then one day I scratched one and it's a dark acid finish. You know, typically I scratched one and I was like, well, this isn't gonna work. I can't re-acid etch the stainless because I couldn't soak the solder joint or whatever in the acid. So I um decided to polish it, and that became like our satin tiger lips, which has evolved, you know, uh as as the years have progressed into something that is a little bit aesthetically pleasing, although uh it does kind of fall into that purely aesthetics camp versus any improvement on performance. But yeah, so that's why we call it Tiger Lips. It's just Tiger Stripe Apocalypse wash. And uh yeah, yeah, it all started back in the zombie craze.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

It's like uh uh yeah, I mean, when you're when you innovate into things, um, it's interesting to me how sometimes um the public picks picks that up. But I mean i honestly, there is this weird uh I'm kind of taking a tangent here, but to make a point, um there are a bunch of people that think that when you're when you're producing a knife, that a mono steel knife or something that's not Damascus or whatever, sonmai, is worthless because it's just a single um uh a single steel, right? A homogenous steel. And I've never really understood that uh because you know you still have to grind the same stuff. It's just you know, it's not uh maybe it's like the uh the post forged in fire, like everything that's like Damascus or blacksmiths or some or rare is more uh inherently more valuable. But um you kind of bridge this gap, as it were, where you provide the stability and assurability of a monosteel with a texturization that that really uh is its own thing that you you can't really achieve in in Damascus or Sonomai, right? Like the the idea at least with um adding um uh embellishments. So I mean at the end of the day, you have your your blade or whatever, and you have your handle material and you have whatever your um like your guards and things like that. And then beyond that, you have whatever embellishments you do. So whether it's engraving or the kind of finish that you're putting on or whatever. Like to me, you add a lot of uh of additional value to the look of it, the aesthetics of it by by putting on like tiger lips or or or some type of finish um that's just not present in a high polish blade. Um, you know, everybody everybody likes high polish, everybody likes satins that are executed well. But there is also something that's like this this uh uh embellishment that is not Damascus, but really has the same kind of like uh visual appeal of a uh of a Damascus or something like that, too. So I mean I all of your knives look look fantastic um by themselves, but they really look good with your uh tiger lips finish on too. Thanks, Aaron. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

The many frustrating hours fighting with ferric chloride trying to get it to do its thing just right. And uh I I mean many hours, and that's just my own ignorance on the subject, but once I kind of crack the code, um, you know, the customers like it. Uh they they think it elevates the look. And I have to explain pretty frequently, especially on the the dark tiger lips, you know, the unpolished variant. Um you meet they go, oh, is this Damascus? I'm like, no, it's not. Like, oh, did you forge this? And I'm like, well, technically every every knife is forged. Um, I'm pretty sure that was uh uh Kevin Cashin's little nugget of wisdom. You know, that's some guys, you know, bang it against an anvil, mine gets forged at the mill, I receive a piece of forged steel. It's run through rollers and everything else to get everything, you know, homogeneous into a consistent thickness and all that stuff. So I get to kind of skirt that issue and just shut it down because I don't I don't believe in the competition between you know bladesmiths and stock removal guys. Um we're we're all kind of just playing the game the way we want to. But yeah, no, the tiger lips is uh it's a it's like I said, I have to explain it to the uninitiated every once in a while. No, this isn't Damascus, but in my opinion, and not even just my opinion, you know, these CPM steels are are pretty amazing when it comes to performance. And and they're gonna, you know, they may not be as pretty, but they are gonna outperform um in a lab setting, uh, you know, layered steel, let's say. And I would say that the goal of a lot of layered steel, other than just aesthetics, is to even reach the capability of powdered steel metallurgy. And, you know, that's you look back at the Tahama uh Tamahagani of the Japanese swords, you know. I mean, this is a refined um steel and and composition. So that's we're lucky enough that I can just, you know, call Niagara and have them send it to me.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

So yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean I man, I don't know. I mean, I I started off doing a little bit of like bladesmithing type of stuff when I got into it, but um I there's a portion of me that that really I mean, I'll die on this hill that um the difference between stock removal and and bladesmithing is uh mysticism. Because if you if you really think about it, everyone who forges uh stock removes and and and even in the science, like so Laren Thomas doing um all of his um heat treating uh and and metallurgy uh studies inside of the vein of knives has been able to debunk some of the mysticism that has just been um a part of of bladesmithing for a long time. It's like no no being in a particular orientation to the polls does not inherently make make your eat treatment better. Like you don't have to What about edge packing? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it like yeah, I mean uh all those I wasn't there something on uh Laren's uh um Instagram or something, like social media where he's talking like he was debunking edge packing. It was something really recently.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Possibly I don't, and I I said it was Kevin Castro, but it was Laren that is the one that said that that said they're all forged. So I just wanted to clear the record on that. But yeah, um I don't know. I didn't see it, but it's it's pretty crazy. And we're lucky that really that book that he put out, I have a copy of it here, it's gifted to me by a customer, which is great. And you realize really how easy it is to come up with mysticism. Um, growing up in the southwest, I'm from Arizona, you know, born and raised. I live in Michigan now, but that's definitely my home. Um, we grew up around rattlesnakes and a lot of them is a pretty common occurrence, you know. Um I've dispatched a number of them, eaten them, and you know, whatever. But there were all these remedies for snake bites, and they were mostly inaccurate because an adult mature rattlesnake usually is going to hit you with a very low to zero venom dose, other than residuals, um, as a warning shot. The younger ones are a lot more potent. They give you everything they got in the first shot. But there were all these remedies for snake bites that people swore by because they were never actually affected by the venom. So it, you know, it's this correlation versus causation thing. They think it worked, but there was nothing to solve. And I think in the mysticism of metallurgy, um, I think people get a good result, but they're attributing it to the wrong variable.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Yeah, there's a I I I I'll probably misquote this, but it's like there, there's actually a paradigm. I think it's like the survivor ability paradigm where like so I think it was in World War II, where they were um um uh like planes would come back and they would have holes in them, and they're like, okay, wherever these holes are, we need to put plating in. And um, and there was some mathematician that was like, No, no, no. That's not probably where these holes are is where it's less likely to cause catastrophic failure. We need to strengthen them and strengthen them in everywhere else. And that that's that cyber survivability uh paradigm or whatever is something that's like psychologically inherent in all of us, where we're like, yeah, the the the thing that has the Aoi is the thing that we protect, but maybe that what we're not focusing on is like all the things that are dying because of other things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

These ones all made it back for us to evaluate. So where did they not get shot? Because chances are those guys are in the drink. Yeah, totally. That was such a jaw-dropping article or whatever, you know what I mean? When I saw that for the first time, I was like, your mind just expands when you see little gems like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

Yeah, and I mean, honestly, it's it's the same way, it is the same way with knives, right? Like um, there there are so many things that you have to think about uh very linearly, but then when we get into like theoretical uh sides of knives, that's honestly where I geek out because uh Laren does not suffer uh like fools very well. And there are there are times like in there's a stock removal uh group on Facebook, and I I think maybe one time, and I had read his book, and I understand heat treating uh principles pretty well. And there was some area where I said something, he's like, actually, no, blah, blah, whatever. And I felt like, okay, the godfather of like knife metal or G like a published work like of our generation is saying, uh, no, I'm an idiot, uh, in a very kind way of just saying, like, no, that's not right. Um, I was like, okay, well, maybe instead of me like making comments, I'm just gonna let Laren take care of it. But um, you know, very fortunate for all of us that he's uh spending his life actually dedicated towards uh this vocation because uh like maybe like I learn new stuff all the time when he posts stuff up and when he tests things, but um future generations of knife makers will be able to kind of sift through the old wives' tales and really get down to what's like provable through scientific method um in order to be able to evaluate um steels and heat treats and things like that, largely because of his work alone.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

I I think uh Laren's work, that tone that he put out, uh you know, even aside from the individual testing and stuff that that he does on his on you using his time, um, I I think it's tantamount to uh hieroglyphs or cave drawings or something like that. Like it's something that future, future, future generations will look back on. It is leaps and bounds, and it is such a service, like you said, to this industry, especially at a time when this industry is was just going haywire because of the TV shows and stuff. So it's uh no, I I wonder if he realizes what a contribution that really is. Because I mean, as far as the historical record goes, the it's a it's a him publishing that book was a watershed moment. That's that's something any knife maker can uh look up the what the ISBN or whatever it is and just order it off Amazon or get it from wherever it comes from and um and and elevates their work, even if I like I understand probably 4% of that whole book, but I at least I now I'm I'm learning what questions to ask and where to do deep dives and whatnot. But yeah, a significant contribution overall, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

I mean, if anybody's interested in this book, it's a knife engineering by Dr. Laren Thomas. It's steel heat treating and geometry. And the uh I'm gonna read out the ISBN, whatever. Um, it's 979-862-184-8873. And you can find it on Amazon and everywhere. But uh one thing that I really like about it is I have every single uh steel that I regularly use tabbed out from the back, and I'll follow his heat treat recipes, and I have like never, never had a failure when I followed his recipes, which to me, that that level of repeatability and consistency with what I'm doing on my Rockwell uh tester and everything has been invaluable to me. Like I don't have to waste my time uh with the trial and error of heat treating because Laren has done all of that for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Absolutely. Now, I was very fortunate that I got a little tribal pass down, and and uh those who are familiar with my work know that I prefer uh CPM 154, which I know is not like the the tallest blue and red bar on the graph. Um, but it it has a tremendous performance value, and it is just a it's a stalwart steel, in my opinion. And I I love that. Steel in it's every capacity. Um, but I I got a tribal heat treat recipe, you know, from a well-respected maker who got it from a very well respected maker also. So uh, and then I got the book. And so I was like, oh, let's see, you know, where are we at with this? And so I looked at it and I was like, okay, great. I mean, I'm right there. And so that that was it was validating in that sense. Although I use his book when I have odd orders, you know what I mean? Because he gives with cryo, without cryo, you know, cryogenic treatment, you know, uh, you know, sub zero quench even or whatever it is, um, you know, different variations on it. And I am not the metallurgist in the family, that's for sure. But uh yeah, no, it's uh it's a such a valuable resource. And my book is already so gross just from filming through it with shop hands, with grimy shop hands, you know, it's uh it's definitely a lifesaver when you get those oddballs, oh, I want this out of this steeler because it it's reliable.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Yeah, well, I mean, I I think like the the idea, well, I mean, if we think about this episode, uh like I kind of want to frame this for people, um, is that I think that like the reason I wanted to have Matt on is because he and I both ideologically agree that we we uh ride on the shoulders of giants, right? And uh you know, if you look at Matt's work, um, he figures out so many things himself, um, but he also has had a lot of of benefit from talking to some really smart people. And I'm the same way. Like I don't know that I would have the same perseverance like um Bruce Bump's episode, uh, which you know just uh released um that this this previous time. He this cut and shoot stuff that he he's he's done, um there cut and shoots have been around for a long time. Uh but the the modern cut and shoot and how he uh pulls together uh you know gun barrels and makes his own mechanisms and puts blades on it and things like that are something that he's really pioneered in the modern age. And he thinks almost nothing about it, but he had to research everything from scratch because there was no there was no uh living knife makers that I'm aware of that could impart any of that knowledge for him. So he had played through how do you actually get from this cool picture or this like idea of a cut and shoot to actually making these things, you know what I mean? And um I I just think that we are in the we're at the genesis of knife making where we can really just rely on each other for uh knowledge sharing, and it's it's so much easier than it was back in the day. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

Yeah, and uh to underscore that point, I mean, I'm a self-taught maker. Like that's I began this endeavor in the mountains, uh, you know, at the base of the Mogeon Rim in Arizona, and uh that I I didn't have access to anything. We barely had internet, you know, and so and that was touch and go and and pretty late coming in my time there, also. So it's I was self-taught until you get older and more mature in your career, and then you start hanging out with other knife guys before I was an island. And and that's when you get kind of the nuances, you know what I mean, where they're willing to share some of the you know, heat treat recipes, which are guarded like mom's marinara sauce. And but the cool part about it is you see people like Bruce and you see uh even people like Tyler, who's obnoxiously young for the level, Tyler Turner, obnoxiously young for the level of talent he has. And you go, hey man, there it no matter, I still feel like a kid in this game. I am still like junior varsity, if even, you know, maybe pee-wee, you know, and so there is this new goal, this new horizon that that shows up that says, man, uh in my later years, after I have accrued this much knowledge, then I'll I I can start delving into more complex things. And I'm already starting to get a taste for it and a thirst for it rather, not even a taste, just like this. Just like I want to go farther. And the sky is the limit when it comes to knife making. I mean, you can go in any direction as far off the reservation as you want, and uh and start, you know, adding mechanisms. I am getting ready to try a takedown dagger. I've never done that before. So I'm like, oh, this would be cool, having, you know, just a bunch of components that seamlessly fit together. Um, and that's one that I'm I'm really looking forward to. And I'm not doing a lot of research on it. I probably should, but I'm looking forward to solving that problem. That's where the hunger is, the insatiable hunger is in how can I solve that problem? And if I hit a wall that I can't overcome, um, then I'll start probably reaching out. But it's nice to know people like the Bruce still exists. Uh uh, there's a name that's escaping me right now. Uh, he does some amazing takedown work. And I have intentionally not looked at his page because I don't want to, I don't want to skip any steps in the creative process, I guess, in that case. But um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:10

Yeah, on Takedown Buoys, especially, Kyle Royer has done a lot of uh good work um and and documented it pretty well online. But um uh, you know, Ty Tyler Turner, for instance, like I've met him a few times. He's a real cool guy. But the thing I love about him is that um he's kind of like the John Mayer of knife making, like he's so eclectic, but it seems like everything that he it seems like everything that he touches is just like like wow factor. And I I've really enjoyed that because it it just doesn't matter. Like whatever he wants to make, whatever's in his mind's eye, he just does an is an immaculate job at it. And if if there's people that want to like look at somebody, um somebody who can really just pinch hit in any type of direction, it's him. And I don't I don't you know he's just like a a savant when it comes to that. I mean, it's just uh he exudes talent.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

And I mean, you want to talk about a guy who is outwardly like devoid of ego, he's just a beam of light in every room that he walks in. He's happy, he's upbeat, he's not, you know, you walk through Blade Show, you're gonna run into a couple of tough guys that are just like, hey, you know, these are killing tools and you know, all this other thing, you know what I mean, regardless of the intent of the knife design, you know, historically speaking. You have these this tough guy mentality, which I really can't stand. And then you meet Tyler and you think he's in the wrong building. I mean, he doesn't have a bunch of stuff hanging off his backpack, there's no Molly straps on his cargo shorts. I mean, there's he's just he's just like a regular dude. Like you said, like the John Mayer. He's just so amiable. And then he's like, oh, you know, I dabble in some stuff. And you know, I'm working on one. This one's kind of cool, and you're just your mind is blown. You're like, you're a friggin' wizard, dude. And uh yeah, he's I I like Tyler a lot. He's I'm I was really glad to meet him at the uh Hammer in uh the Midwest Knife Makers go and get together over at uh Tracy's place. And I well, I Tyler and I struck it off, you know, or hit it off immediately. And uh what a guy, what a hell of a maker, though. I mean, just I wish that could get cloned. I wish we could have this lack of ego, again, uh lack of gatekeeping, lack of tough guy attitude, killer attitude. Um, save save that for when the time comes that you have to be that individual, but it has no place at the table at Blade, you know what I mean? So like he's he's doing it right. I think he's a good example to to to watch.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:39

Yeah, well, um I this is your interview. Um, and I kind of want to like just bring that point home that you you're also that way, right? I mean, I I love being able to talk to people who are just generous with their time, uh generous with who they are, uh, genuinely as a person, and um exude exude the the light and passion, right? And you're just one of those. Like I from the moment I started talking with you, I just knew that you were somebody who I wanted to talk to. And it's been a pleasure, even on the periphery, because we don't get to talk all the time, um, but uh just to be able to in some way be a part of the thing that you've created. So um kind of with that being said, the last question um we typically ask uh people on this uh podcast is if there's specific type of advice that you can give to like new or upcoming makers, other than the wealth of everything that you've already talked about, like what what are like the high points? Is there some inspirational uh message that you can give to the those kind of people that are listening?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:44

Well, I mean, first off, thanks, Aaron. I appreciate the kind words. Um I always find it very easy to talk to. So whenever we see each other at shows, like uh it's I look forward to it, and I definitely appreciate it coming from you because I have a tremendous respect for you. But uh if I was gonna give advice, this is frustrating for all of us, like every one of us has hair pulling moments, every one of us is getting an orange peel or a solder joint that isn't flowing. You know, whatever it is, are for some reason like that the belt edge is not providing the same plunge line from reverse to obverse. We all go through it, and I think the most skillful makers make it look like you pushed a button and a perfect knife came out. But the reality is there's a lot of frustration that goes through that. So any new maker who isn't living up to a goal that they may not achieve for like 10 years, don't kick your own because you're not there yet. This is a path. This is not a destination. And we're every day we are solving problems. So from the pros to the you know, amateurs to the neophytes, like I it is just stick with it. And in doing that, be honest with who you are and don't try to live up to the image of somebody, even if you admire them, because if it's not your image, you'll you'll you'll be insincere, you'll never develop that culture, which is what sells your knives. And or worse, they give up when they had tremendous potential. They just don't realize that it takes time and it's it's immeasurable. You know what I mean? Like the the progress, you can't really see it in real time. But it with the the one good thing about social media, if you look back on your catalog of work, you'll see the improvement. And that is the chase, right? And we're in it for the chase. So that's uh if I was gonna say anything, it would just be don't give up, man, uh, from the best makers to the the guy who just got his first belt grinder this week. It's frustrating for all of us, but it's the thrill of the hunt that keeps us going. So just don't give up.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

Yeah, no, I mean, those are those are really inspirational words. And I'm going to like uh underpin that by saying, you know, uh we think oftentimes that um when somebody has arrived that they've always been that way, right? Like you take the the epitome of of people's life work or their their energy, and you say, Oh, they've always been that way. They're super, they're just naturally talented, like you have a God-given gift or whatever. But I I really think that um human potential uh is it is that way, right? And I'll use the for instance, like I I've been told that I'm a good writer. I don't really know that I believe that so much. I've written a lot though. And um uh when I was real young, I did not read very well. Um, even until I was like 10 or 11. I just like there was just some part of me that was like, I just don't really care for this much. I mean, I could read basically, but not well. And I could not write worth a lick. And uh my grandfather told me when I was young, he said, Aaron, if you can read, you can teach yourself anything, right? And this is a guy who grew up with, I don't know, he was like one of 11 kids. Um, he his dad died when he was super young, and he had to work in like the steel factories and whatnot in order to help the family make enough money to feed the family. Uh he was in World War II, he was a mechanic. Um uh outside of that, he was a farmer in many different capacities and a truck driver. Like he's he's just uh uh a jack of all traits, right? And I don't mean that in like the pejorative sense, like he just knew so much. And he did that through educating himself like every day. And what as I started to like develop in in reading and writing and whatnot, um, I realized that he was right. Like you have to be able to stick with it. And you know, people might say that you're naturally talented, um, but I I man, I don't know. Like it's it almost um it almost uh makes me feel like you you people weren't around for all that suffering that I've done uh to get to a place where I could write well. And it's the same way with knives, like you'll never know the struggles that a person goes through internally or with their craft to get to where they are, but just know that there is a story behind that and remember that you you can write your own story as well. I mean, so it's a it's a perfect point. I mean, I I I live that every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

I I couldn't agree more. In fact, I take umbrage with saying that I have natural skill whenever somebody says that. I know they mean it in a complimentary sense, so I don't like lash out at them or whatever, but uh my excuse me, my God-given gift is obstinence. Like that's really what it is is stubbornness to just keep going. It's not knife making, because God knows that has been one arduous step after another. But because I'm so stubborn, uh eventually achieved some level of competency, right? So yeah, no, I I think you're totally right. You can if you can read, and and in today's world, if you can search YouTube, there's a lot on there, you know. I mean, so I mean, there's so many resources available. And I don't want to make it sound like, well, in our day, we had it so much harder. It's just that take advantage of the resources that are out there, um, solve the problems as they present themselves, try to do it on your own first. And when you hit a wall, don't be afraid to research. You know what I mean? That's why people document this stuff. Uh, people like Laren, you know what I mean? That's uh they they they put it there not as a crutch, but as a step to get higher, to elevate the craft as a whole. So yeah, no, I I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:15

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, tenacity is the name of the game. And uh, if you can be tenacious and you can uh have a little bit of endurance and you'll take yourself a lot farther. I I think it's everybody has a uh like a God-given um potential, and it's up to us to realize that uh through the slog. And if and maybe some point in time you look back and you say, Hey, I didn't do too bad, but you know, you gotta stick with it in order to be able to uh uh to realize it in the first place, right? So I don't know. I we're we're in lockstep with that kind of ideology. Absolutely. Well, Matt, it's been a pleasure. I'm gonna let you go. Um, but just uh anytime you want to come on, you're more than welcome. And it's been uh an absolute pleasure to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:59

I forgot that we were even recording, Aaron. It just felt like we were rapping, you know, in the smoke pit behind the Blade show. So no, this is uh this is an absolute blast. I appreciate it, and uh I look forward to coming back again.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:12

Yeah, well, thank you very much. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved and God blessed.