SPEAKER_03 0:05

Welcome to the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I'm joined with my co-host, Chris Crawford.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Thank you for listening in to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I'm joined by my co-host, Chris Crawford. And we have special guest, Alex Harrison from Nightwatch Knives. How are you doing, Alex?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Happy to be here. How are you doing, guys? Hey, Alex.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

Doing good. So, Nightwatch Knives. Um, I s you have a uh a great online presence, except for the fact that you don't have a website. But it seems like all of your knives are on everybody else's websites. So, um uh can you talk a little bit about uh Nightwatch knives uh uh after maybe you give us a little bit of information about who Alex is and uh like how you got into it?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Sure. Um so Alex has been in law enforcement going on eight years now. Um I uh right now I'm a detective, and I have to apologize in advance uh for everyone at home. I'm not gonna give a whole lot of information about that because my superiors have asked me not to. Um but I started uh I spent about a year working in the jail, the sheriff's office that I work for, uh, and then I spent about six years on uh the patrol division working the road uh almost entirely on the night shift, which is kind of where the name comes from. Um and they don't pay us that much in the industry overall. So one of the many things that just me as a person being inherently attracted to knives, I just always have been, that occurred to me was uh the very stubborn, bullheaded thought of uh if I need a good knife for work, uh I might as well just make it myself since I can't afford one. Um and it is that hare-brained, uh born of ignorance thought that has snowballed over the past six-ish years, uh, and now here I am.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Yeah, that's uh that was my problem with hunting and fishing. I was like, I'm definitely going to like, I mean I'm definitely gonna build my own, and then like sixty plus thousand dollars later in tool investments and other things like that. I'm like, I should have just bought a $450 custom knife.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yes, sir, you should have. And now here you are with us.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Yeah, yep. Um, did you know that the Night Watch is also a famous painting by Rembrandt from uh 1642?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

I did, and I have been trying to find the right artist to do a parody of that for us for a very long time. Uh because I could I can see it in my head. I'm just waiting to run into the person with the right style.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Yeah, you just have to you gotta have to look out on Fiverr or something like that and try to get somebody to do a uh a mock-up for you.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, but what fun is that? You know, you want to find someone who you know matters to you.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

Yeah. Well, so uh are you taking are you taking bids for a uh a Rembrandt uh uh a Rembrandt photo? So if people are listening and they're really good at uh mock Rembrandt, they cannot contact you?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Uh absolutely not. Don't contact me for any reason ever.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Especially if you want a knife.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

So um talk to me a little bit about how you got into knives. Like what uh other than getting into making knives and the poor decisions instead of buying a custom knife for yourself, um what what like what what got you into knives, period?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Uh I I I think poor decision is the hallmark word there. Um when I was young, I had this you know prototypical boyhood infatuation with with knives and and and guns and weapons and fighting and action movies and whatever. And I found it easier to find and subsequently carry a knife than I did at you know, 14, 16, 18 years of age to carry a gun. Um they didn't lower the age for um concealed carry in Missouri to 18 until after I was 21, if I remember correctly. So um I carried knives because that's what I could have, and I was attracted to them because that's what I could have. Um and then of course, you know, as you the more you grow up and and get into that world, you you stop looking at them like, you know, a mall ninja kind of thing, and you you start to understand what a tool uh a good knife is. Um but I was always I I never didn't have one. I I've always felt more prepared with something in my pocket, something on my person. Um I I had a very early grasp on the concept of your everyday carry uh before I knew that was a thing. And that's that's just kind of the root of it. I used to get in trouble for putting holes in our drywall. I would get bored and throw throw a knife or just you know stab the wall for fun and not understand how how labor intensive and expensive it was to repair that. So when we moved out of our house when I was a kid, I I I got spoken to about that.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Yeah, I uh my my brother's uh so I'm one of eight kids. And my brother my brothers uh um we were uh horsing around, and I ended up through a series of uh of events throwing my brother into the wall and it busted it out, and so my dad made me uh fix it myself. But I mean he bought everything, so like I feel like the lesson should have been like pay for the materials and then also do the work, and you know what it's like to be an adult. But I didn't learn that until I was a little bit older. So like uh I don't destroy my own property because uh I know like the ramifications of of the expenditure. So uh baby steps, yeah, yeah. Well, as I say, like life is a progression from birth to death, and so like what is your in-between, right? Mine has been learning about the expense expense of life.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Specifically drywall, yeah. I'm there with you.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

Exactly, yeah, which is getting more expensive, like inflation.

unknown 6:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

So um, so talk a little bit more about how you got into night watch knives. Like uh, I mean what fa founding, uh what other than other than you building your knives for you, like how how did this like all like start? Because I I I for people who are familiar with your brand and and your knives, I think it makes sense they've been there from the beginning. But for people who know know not that much about Nightwatch knives, talk a little bit about like the early years.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah. Um, so I 20 at the very end of 2016, I bought my first house and started messing around in the basement. There was an old old bench that someone had built with an ancient bench vise there, and that's half your knife shop right there. Um, and like everyone else, you know, you start with a $30 Harbor Freight grinder and you you work your way up and you start making mistakes until they stop looking like mistakes. But um I couldn't tell you how long it took me to brand myself. I know that uh originally the name I came up with was V as Invictor 58 Edgeworks. Um I liked that because it was a sideways allusion to at the time the statistic was every every 58 hours uh a peace officer is killed in the line of duty. Um and the V just stood for Valhalla because you you know we gotta make it about Vikings somehow. Um and I thought that that was really depthy, and I thought it was really cool, and I thought it was very evocative of um or invocative when it comes to you know trying to get people to ask, you know, what's the story? Oh, this is our story. It didn't work, nobody asked, they didn't care. And uh realizing that one, it wasn't going to it wasn't making people ask what's what does your name mean, what's the story, and two, the layman looking and seeing that it wasn't immediately clear what we did just based on the name, I had to come up with something a little bit different. Um so that's where Nightwatch Knives came from. Compared to V58 Edgeworks, it's I think it's pretty clear what Night Watch Knives is. Uh but by then, yeah, by then that was that was after my first time up in Escanaba, um, meeting uh Jim Stewart and Mike Stewart and uh at Bark River Knives and hanging out in Matt Martin's shop with him. Um and I could talk about all that. He very graciously invited me to his shop and taught me a lot. Um we ran through a Bob Loveless drop point hunter build, um, and I came back with a whole new set of skills to to work with. And that was the first big jump in quality that I experienced was after I got to learn a bunch of stuff from Matt.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is your interview, but Matt's a super good guy. Like uh every time I've talked to him, I I always learn something just through talking to him because of how articulate he is. So um I hope to get him on the show someday.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, I'm sure he'd be uh open to that. I know he had his own podcast for a while, did very, very well before they stopped doing it.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

Yeah, well, I'm not taking any advice from him on how to make a podcast popular. There's one thing like I I have to I have to learn something myself. So that's fair. Like he could still like stay in your lane, Matt.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I'll tell him he said so.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Well, maybe he'll listen to this so that we could uh use that as a springboard to get him on here.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

That'd be something.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

But so uh I you know what's interesting about it is that when I look at your knife um aesthetic, uh I I do see like your your world of influence, right? Like who who you went to for information and how that kind of applies to the way that you make knives. However, what is distinctly you is the patterns that you come up with and and these these nuances, like how you stitch everything together from a blade aesthetic perspective, uh, is is really interesting to me. So like I I knew about your work before I knew you as a person. And I think I think the first time I actually saw you is when you were going through the probationary um uh the probationary uh inspection for the guild. I saw you out there waiting in line, but uh getting to know you more over the years, it's actually been uh been uh educational as well because you're you're not like one to hold back an opinion if you have it.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

No, I don't suppose I am.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

Which is good. I I like being able to like theorize, uh like talk about the theoretical side of knives and uh how to how to how to um address certain types of problems. But um talk a little bit more about uh your your warwash um uh finish. Uh not not specific techniques because people can find that out themselves. But yeah, like it's it's super interesting to me uh when you apply it to knives. In fact, you actually applied it on one of my knives for a benefit that we were doing. So that's so pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

That was that was a heck of a project. I really enjoyed that. Um so Warwash is is directly derivative of again Matt Martin's tiger lips uh that he does on his knives. It is um inferior to, if for no other reason than it is not the seminal uh technique. But Matt was very gracious in sharing some of that with me, and uh I it's not like you said, I won't go into detail because one, it's it's pretty straightforward, and two, um, it just I think would be disrespectful to Matt to go touting his his uh trade secrets around. But the reason I keep doing it, there's two reasons. First I almost I can't help but see a finished ground blade like a black canvas. And I I I don't I'm not a fan of uh Burlwood in general or some of the flashier handle material. I just think there are a lot of substandard ways to make a a a less sturdy knife than Micarta. So I really lean heavily into Micarta, but uh part of it is the aesthetic. I think it's cool to add something to the blade to the blade itself that makes you look at it and and appreciate the fact that it's unique and there's something more going on besides just a clean satin blade, which has its place. Um but the observation I've made over time, and the the real reason I keep doing it, is it is so, so hard to damage that finish. Uh, and I'm sure you know, Aaron uh and Chris. I'm sorry, I've been talking like you're not here this whole time. I'm sure you both know, uh it's because I can't see you. I sure I'm sure you both know that you can have a fantastic satin on a on a blade that you've finally gotten to look perfect, and uh then you set it down for a second and the shop dust uh scratches it up. You get it's really easy to damage a satin blade, which doesn't make sense, but it is. Umce I finished with war wash, and and my shop is the dust situation is completely out of control. But once I finish with my war wash, I I don't have to pay attention to what happens to that knife. I can throw it on the ground, throw it on the bench, it can get magnetized and covered in in metal shavings and dust. It doesn't matter. I have not been able to figure out how to leave meaningful marks on the stuff. And I'm not saying it can't be done. I mean, obviously you can scratch up any knife, but it's just compared to everything else I can do to a knife, compared to a hand mirror, a hand satin, a belt satin, a um an acid wash, a a um uh like a stone wash, it's just the most durable stout finish that I know how to put on a knife. Uh and that's why I I put it on all my personal knives, because I'm not a particularly careful person with my tools.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Alex, I'm not familiar with the war wash, but can you kind of explain not necessarily the process, but what type of finish that is? I mean you mentioned the you know if I'm familiar with like a stone wash kind of uh but what what is the what is the war wash? Like how would you describe that?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Uh just a pattern etch. Um if you weren't paying really close attention, or if you like if you're glancing at it from ten feet away, or if you um just didn't know your stuff that well, you would almost think it was it was like a Damascus etch. Um but the truth is it's just a it's a um a multiple stage etch that involves uh a resist of some kind and a a carefully applied pattern. Um and it yeah, and it it just and I can send you some pictures, Chris. Um it's there's a couple different ways to do it. There's a couple of different ways I can do like a two-tone where there's dark and light, I can do where the whole thing is polished. Um just like I mean, just like Damascus, there's different ways to finish Damascus. Um and it just it adds something to it besides being a a a satin blade.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

All right, yeah. I'm looking at your Instagram, and I I guess I'm that's what I'm seeing on some of these blades where it looks like it almost looks like you have a stonewash finish, but but there's also areas which maybe aren't, you know, that that that look more smooth. Is is that what you're referring to?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Uh pretty, yeah, pretty much. The so the last two, last three, last four, last five, uh, last five knives on our on our Instagram, on my Instagram have um like the polished war wash, and then if you go down to the sixth one, the black handle, the yellow liners, uh, that one's got more of the two-tone.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah, I got it.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah, that's good. That's that's cool. Yeah, yeah. That's all it is. It's just a little something something, but it I find that it makes a big difference. Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Yeah, and um, you know, I something that I've found in in custom knife making is that there is there's a lot of perceived value in Damascus, right? Like you you look at like people look at satin finishes and they're like, ugh, mono steel, like, ugh, and and then they look at Damascus and they're like, that's super great. And it seems uh so earlier days of uh American knife, like custom knife making, uh, and into the 70s, 80s, 90s, and like the guild, right? Um, having a a high polished blade was like like it, right? It's like paper tang, high polished blade, you know, everything like that. And now it's like I I especially since Forged and Fire, the dynamic has changed a lot more to like the brute to forge and like the uh mill scale type of look to knives, um instead, and I think that there is a a lot higher perceived value on Damascus. Now, not to mention the fact that Damascus takes forever to make, right? Yeah, um, and it is actually more expensive, like $75, $80, $80 per inch in some cases, right? But um if if there are newer knife makers um out there that that want a good tip on ways to add intricacy or appeal to their knives without a humongous amount of budgetary expense, um knife finishes is a consideration, right? So stone stonewashes, um, figuring out um uh etching. Uh there's there's this one knife maker that actually paints scenes um on his blades and then etches them and so they're like aquatic themes or like all sorts of things is crazy. Um but yeah, you can figure out ways without having to transfer the cost of Damascus directly onto your customer base uh for builds, you can actually figure out ways to um hack that system and do a finish difference uh then than you know, just a monosteel satin or whatever, and you can actually increase the quality and desirability of your work as well. So so something to think about.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

For sure. I mean it's all about what you're trying to accomplish, too. I mean, uh how many different blade finishes do you see Tom Crine applying? I mean, he might do some stone wash sometimes, but the fact that Tom Crying ground it is enough to know that it's a perfect satin and you want this knife by this knife. Uh the same cannot be said about your average knife maker who just does, you know, a satin, and because they don't have that years of clout behind them, and especially if your grind is less than perfect, uh it's just not as exciting. Um, but if you take the time and do something unique to it, or you just add that extra bit of detail, even as simple as you're if you're gonna handstand your flats and then uh leave your uh your bevels as a belt satin, it's just a way to show that you have put more attention, more care into your blade than I've I ground it and then it's done. Um it's especially if as long as what you're doing looks intentional. If it if you can tell that you know you're maybe trying to cover up kind of a sloppy grind, because in my really early days, I would like tactically place my war watch so that it would try and hide less than perfect grinds, and it never worked, but I thought it would. Um but anymore, you can look at a grind of mine and tell, and still you can still see the grind. I mean, you're fooling yourself if you think you can't still see the grind and tell that it's a it's a good grind, it's an acceptable grind. Uh so if it looks intentional, then it's only gonna add to the piece.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Yeah, absolutely. You know, another thing about your knives that I actually really like is uh you know your your progression through uh through I guess the the expertise that you have in knives is increased, and you can see that in social media and everything, which I think is a really cool thing. But your handles specifically look super comfortable, like all of them. Like I I look I just look and see uh all these pictures, and I'm like, that looks like it would be very comfortable to hold.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

So I have three criterion, um, and if a knife that I make does not meet these three, it is not a nightwatch knife. And the first and foremost of which that handle has to be comfortable in every grip you can hold it in. So that's something that I pay a great deal of attention to. And it's you know, it starts with um you know, it starts in the sketchbook and it ends at, you know, my 80 grit when I'm when I'm contouring it. And everything after that is just polish work, but it it's something that I'm constantly putting care into, and I'm you know, checking symmetry and and checking it in my hand, and and um because that's that's the most important thing to me. They say that your blade is what you're selling and your handle's what sells it, um, but the handle's your user interface. And if that's not comfortable, if it's not perfect, if it doesn't make you pick up that knife and say yes every time you put it in your hand, ultimately you're you're gonna want a different knife. And that is not what I want for my product. I want it to be we're collectors. We all are, and we have a lot of knives because we like to have a lot of knives. But if someone is gonna spend their money on one of my knives, I want that to be a knife that could be the last knife they ever need. For that, at least for that purpose. I mean, you're not gonna buy a five inch uh, you know, five and three quarters inch knife and dress out an elk with. I don't want them to pick up one of my knives after having spent that money and go, yeah, this I just wish this was a little bit more this. Or you know, this edge is just not quite comfortable for me. That's the most important thing for me is the user interface. Is the handle comfortable?

SPEAKER_04 22:09

Yeah, I mean, oddly enough, all right, uh, if you look at prison shanks, and uh f follow me on this obtuse like thought here. If you if you look at something that's completely utilitarian, and I know that there are so many uh examples of where people uh apply like knife-shaped objects to shanks, right? But if you look at one thing that is common about early, early like hominid uh uh like tooling and stuff and prison shanks and other things is that the handles are usually all very comfortable, like in some way, shape, or form. It's just it's an observation that I've made in the past, right? And so if you if you think about that, one of the first like the most utilitarian things about using a blade is the fact that the the handle has to be comfortable and usable. And what is on the what is on like to the like the Ricasso and up is subjective, right? But it it does have to be a useful, um, a useful piece of equipment at the handle by itself.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

You're right. And I I think a lot of times that gets distilled down to um how neutral is the grip. Uh there are a lot of knives out there that are um there's a they're heavily contoured to fit your hand, and there's uh a groove for every finger. Um sometimes they're even contoured to fit a left or right hand specifically. And yeah, your hand melts into that thing and it feels like it's never coming out of your hand, and there's one perfect way to hold it until you try to hold it in a reverse grip, or a reverse trapping grip, or choke up on it, or something like that, and it doesn't make sense, it just gets weird on you. Um it's a different school of thought, and I I would be very hesitant to knock anyone else's work because somewhere out there is a hundred and twenty thousand dollar art knife that also fits that description, and I'll never approach that level, but it is certainly not the school of thought that I apply to the tools that I make.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Yeah, I um you know that's uh something that uh like I I encounter in my making is I I have I have meat hooks for hands, right? Uh they're they're big, and if I apply the same rule of thumb for what is comfortable in my hand, everything would be a K-bar, right? Um and I and I uh and oddly enough, I have two like two modals that I go uh between when it comes to like knife utility. One is like the big knife because that's what fits most comfortably in my hand, and the other is a super small knife because from like hunting, fishing days where I really just needed something small to get into areas where I you just need to get into them, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

Um it's it's the small knives, it's the burden trouts, the scalpels, and things like that that I produce. And and I try to make it as utilitarian where it doesn't matter whether I'm behind the knife or somebody who's big or small is behind the knife, if it if it if it has cross um application with any size person, then really it's more about the aesthetics of the knife and less about whether you can actually hold it and it fits you know comfortably into those grooves or or swells or things like that. Absolutely. I I'll I'll hold a knife and that'll be like a make or break thing. I was like, this is a really beautiful knife, but I can't hold it.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Chris, I'm really curious. Um, can you kind of weigh in on the on the handle design, handle shape thing? Because uh Aaron and I have been waxing about it, and I I'm I would love to know how you approach that.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

So I'm a little bit different in that I mainly make, well, pretty much I only make folders and small folders. So with f with small folders like this, you know, like my little EDC, you're not really as concerned about a grip. You know, you're not it's not like you're you're clutching that thing and wrapping your fingers all the way around it like you might a larger uh straight knife. Sure. But one thing that I do is I really want to make sure that I don't have any sharp edges. You know, that the you if you know how the um like an ice skate, I think about an ice skate a lot with the top of the blade. So you know, an ice skate is I don't know, I don't know how wide they are, maybe an eighth inch wide, the blade on an ice skate, maybe. But but they're 90 degree angles, and they're extremely sharp on the on the edges. And so, you know, when I'm after I get my pocket knives put together and sanding, uh, you know, kind of sanding everything off, you know, with a belt sander, sanding everything smooth. Well, I don't want that sharp, I don't want to have like an ice skate blade coming off the top of my, you know, the the top edge of the knife. So but one of the things I'll do is I'll just I'll just kind of hold it and without even really look and feel all the way around the knife. Now there's gonna be one spot that is gonna be sharp because I don't raise the handle up to cover it up, and that's gonna be right where the um the back of the blade intersects with the spring. So that's gonna stick up a little bit and be a little bit sharp, but that's the only place. So, you know, kind of I guess to the point of the topic, you know, I'm I'm not with my small knives, I'm not thinking so much about grip as much as I'm thinking about, you know, is it gonna is it gonna you know make a hole in your pocket if you carry it every day? Or if you are you're gonna reach in and get a sharp corner or something like that, or a sharp edge. Is the is the is the handle, you know, is is it gonna be smooth? Is everything rounded over? So so I do I do think about those things, but probably from a little bit different perspective than than you know somebody making a you know a larger a larger knife.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Okay, that makes sense. I and I hadn't hadn't really considered that. I mean, well, you're because I don't make folders, I don't I lack the intellectual capacity for that kind of work. When you have a mech like a mechanism to consider, everything else kind of has to take a necessary back seat. I mean, it doesn't matter how comfortable the handle is if the knife doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Well that's that's definitely true. Yeah, yeah, and and and um you you that's a good way to put it. Everything takes a back seat. I mean, you can have a beautiful blade grind, but if that thing, you know, if you need a pair of pliers to open it, then what's the point? And I guess that would be similar to what you're talking about. You could have a really nice, you know, blade and a blade grind and finishing everything, but if it's not comfortable to hold, it's it's kind of the same thing. You know, that that one little bit, you know, for a folder is going to be the mechanical aspect of it that might be the killer.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Um that's that's one thing about that's one thing about pocket knives in general uh that that is a little bit comp complicated to get your head around, right? Is because in in most cases there's geometry to the mechanisms. So whether it's uh lockbacks, liner locks, friction, friction folders, uh slip joints, um frame locks, all of them have uh aspects of geometry that are required for them to fold and to stay open and everything, all right? But then once you get them those things square or geometrically correct, you then you also have to think about the aesthetic of whether that is uh a usable knife. Now, like uh like observationally in Chris's uh uh work, you'll see uh several things. One is that his profiles on his EDCs, especially are very form-factored. Um to me, they're they're like he has just enough handle material, uh, they're just the right size and they look comfortable because because they're smaller, uh well-formed knives. Yeah, right. Um but the other thing too is that like if you if you hold them, they're also they they they tactily uh tactically feel good. Like, I mean, there's no there's no sharp edges, and I think that also comes through it as photography as well. They they just look like good knives. Well appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

So uh talk a little bit about the different models of knives that you have, because um Alex, one thing that I think is uh compelling about your your products is that they're they're not all the same like Loveless style drop point hunter. You have some like you're constantly innovating, uh new designs, uh new handle, handle grips and things like that. And I'd be interested to know a little bit about um how how you prepare for that and also talk a little bit about some of your more um your wonky models. Like there's there's some that did the handles don't look necessarily like they'd be comfortable, except that they are. They're just like it's insanely comfortable. And it's like this this enigma that you've been able to design around some of these things, uh, to me, I just want to know more about it.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Sure. Um typically when I s when I sit down to sketch something out, it's because I have one idea or one concept that I need to build the rest of a knife around. Um and like just for example, I have a knife called the Interloper that has a two-finger split, um, almost like a riser for your back two fingers, um, and it looks ridiculous. It looks very sci-fi, uh, I think anyway, um, and it it does not look comfortable at all, uh, but it makes perfect sense once you get it in your hand. And the that came from two places. You actually see that in a lot of modern folders, like tactical folders, where they'll they'll kind of split the plane on which your front two fingers and your back two fingers rest on. Um and you you honestly see it a lot in in um older hunters, uh, a lot of uh like ABS style hunters that get made, they have kind of like those two radii, those gentle radii um that you're that come to a point, a gentle point or a gentle curve, and they they split your fingers. And even if you picture uh like a Bark River Bravo or something like that, there's that that curve, that swell where your um your fingers rest that that that does that. So that one came from just me playing with that concept, and you know, can I make a a slim little knife that everything everything I make is small. I like small knives. I don't know why. It just to me it's more like I I you talk about firearms, I carry my Glock 48 almost everywhere I go because it's not my Glock 22, it's not outlandishly huge. And I think knives are the same way. If it's something you're gonna carry around every day, uh smaller is better, uh at least in my experience. Um, and I try to maximize the amount of um utility I get out of a small pattern. So I start playing with different grips, and like the the forward choil, I think, is a great way um to get a little overlap from your grip and where the uh edge starts. And you're you still have a Ricasso, but it's not just dead space. Like if you think, if you picture a level drop point hunter, everything from the face of the guard to where the edge starts is dead spaced, it doesn't serve a purpose. And that's one of my favorite patterns of all time, but that's one of the limitations of it, in my opinion. If you're trying to make real estate count for everything, um, if you're thinking about you know, one of my patterns that has that choil, um, that dead space doesn't exist because your front finger is it's comfortable and it's not wrong or unsafe, but where that choil for your finger stops, the edge starts. So you have more control over it for fine fine uh detail work because of how close you can get. You can get your pointer finger right by the edge, you can rest your thumb right over the top of it, uh, and you can do very fine precision work, feather sticking or whatever whatever it is you're doing with your knife. Uh, and you don't have that wasted space between the functional part of the knife and the user interface. You don't have that ricasso that's just kind of there. Um, that's something I play with a lot too. Uh, and sometimes it's as simple as um one of my good friends that uh is Jimmy uh Stewart at Bark River Knives. Um, and he and I riff off of each other a lot, and we've had times where we, and I won't mention any model names at all, but we've had times where he's shown me something that he sketched or something that Bark River makes, and I've said to him, I'm gonna draw my version of that now, um, almost like a friendly competition, and we go back and forth like that a lot. So I have a lot of knives in my stable that privately to me are, and I'll say this because I don't have one, like my version of their of the Bark River Barong, or um, you know, my version of the Bark River Cub. Uh, that's because uh it's just a niche that I wanted to fill and I wanted to present that design challenge to myself. Uh, and some of them stick around and some of them don't, but it's always it's always got to be a roundabout idea like that that gets me to put uh my pencil to a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

Yeah, it's super cool. Um now I want to talk a little bit about like uh how you sell your knives because I think it's important to note like um observationally uh you have a really strong social media presence, all right. Like when I when I look, like you're always responding to uh your fans or collectors or things like that, but they're also independently creating their own uh their own content, right? That has something to do with your blades. But what I don't often see is like salesy posts, like it's not like he like this drop here all the time, or like go to my website and pick these things out. Like it it it does like you don't have a website, right? I mean I don't see it indexed at all. So like everything that you do is either through social media or through working with dealers where like uh DLT and um and Buccaneer and everything like that. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah, it is. I mean, just besides the fact that I sometimes forget that this is this is my side hustle bordering on a hobby. So the amount of time I have to spend on knives is limited. I mean, at just at work, the sheriff's office, I work 55-hour work weeks because I can and because the work needs done and because they let me do it. Um and something like throwing together a website and managing a website, if there's a good working model out there, because I'm not the only maker that does this by any stretch, if if letting a Facebook group do the work for you and building a following organically is something that you can do, I think it is by far the best option because it doesn't cost me anything. And as long as I keep the group under control, I don't allow like political posts uh eventually, you know, now and again a firearm will find its way onto the page, um, so be it. But I don't do like, you know, Sunday Gunday posts or anything like that. They haven't, they don't really crop up. Um there's people don't post memes or incendiary stuff. Uh I keep it very drama-free so there's no it doesn't draw attention to itself. Uh, and I don't have to spend money on a website. I don't have to worry about how am I drawing people to my my online presence. They're doing it for me, which is the way it should be. Because if if I had a bunch of customers that were getting seeing my stuff and saying, I'd like to have one of those and buying it, and then I never hear from them again, or they uh put it up for sale, they get rid of it, and they don't hang on to it, then I've got a problem. But that doesn't happen to me very often. Um I have a lot of repeat customers, I'm I'm blessed in that way. Uh people I have enough people out there that like what I'm doing, um, and they're happy with their stuff. They they post it all the time, uh, they they're sharing it in other groups. Uh, and I think that's the strongest organic way to build a following because your your reputation does begin to precede you as long as you're doing good work.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Do you um talking about that? So do you work off of orders or do you primarily work, you build what you want, and then you know, people contact you? Like how does that work? And then what what kind of volume are you putting out, you know, if you don't mind me asking, just from a from the perspective of, you know, you are like a lot of us, um you know, I would still can kind of consider myself a hobby maker as well that can make a little money on the side with it. But you you do seem to have a like Aaron said, you know, you go out there on the internet and look, and there's you have a lot of product out there. So yeah, what's your strategy for getting it out there? And do you take orders or how do you handle that?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I I do. Um my my books are open right now, and anyone can get in touch with me and talk through an order. Um I don't I don't hesitate to say no. If you want stuff that is not in my wheelhouse, I'm not gonna make you an American Tonto. I'm not gonna make you anything with like pine cone suspended in resin. Um I and I'll tell you that because that's not what I do. It wouldn't be a nightwatch knife if I made it that way. Um but uh yeah, my books are open. I'm not I'm not that hard to get a hold of. My lead time is a couple of months. Um and I just I try to strategize, I try to be smart about what I'm gonna make uh in a given little run. Uh a comfortable way for me to exist is four pieces in a week. It usually ends up being something like nine because my life is chaos. But um if I if I look at my books and say um within reason, I'm not gonna you know keep shoving an order aside and shoving an order aside and shoving an order aside, but within the scope of of how I want to space things out, it would be easier for me to do four belters than a belter, an Ajax, a patrol scalpel, and an interloper. So if I have four belters on the books and all the times work out, I'll message those people and I'll say, uh, hey, I'm gonna get started on your stuff this week. Uh is it cool? Uh are you are you ready for that? Because I don't take deposits. So uh an order for me is we discuss what you want, you say yes, that's it. I give you the final quote, it's gonna be exactly what it costs. Um, and then you're on the books. And from there, I'll tell you, I'm a couple of months out. Um, what I'll do is when I'm ready to start your build, I'll send you a message, check in with you, hey, say, hey, um, you're up. Are you good with this? It's gonna be a week to two weeks out. Um, and it'll just be payment on completion. And, you know, people say, Yeah, that's fine, or you know, like happened recently, you know, hey, I'm so-and-so, I'm going through a divorce right now. Can I uh can I can you bump me to the back of the line? And I'll say, Yeah, that's cool. As long as you communicate with me, I don't have a problem with that. Um, and I just I try and space it out. I like I said, four pieces in a week is comfortable for me. Uh, then I'm not stressing out about it all week at work, um, and I can kind of work on my leather during the week. Uh, but like right now, the with Texas coming up, I've got 27 pieces on the bench right now, and it's driving me nuts. Yeah. But they're all going to be done by tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

So you were you you you'd mentioned a run. I mean, do you and then you also mentioned four a couple times. Do you try to do kind of like do them in parallel, just I guess to save time? Or you have multiple. Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Well, there's I mean, there's knives in every st every stage of the process all the time, because again, it it's just chaos, no matter how tightly I try to manage it. But generally speaking, a perfect week for me is oh, look, there's four patrol scalpels on the book. Let me message these four people. Are you guys ready? Yeah, we're ready. Okay, perfect. I'm gonna start four patrol scalpels and make them at the same time. And then by next Saturday, they're all gonna be done. And then I will message those people and they will pay me money immediately, and I will ship them the following Monday, and done. Does it go that smoothly all the time? You know, whatever. But that's that's the model that I try to work off of. My volume is such at this time that I have not found that to be an issue.

SPEAKER_04 42:59

Yeah, that's one thing that's interesting is I from a methodology perspective, you treat knife production more like a production uh company, right? Absolutely. Yes. Like for me, uh, and this is just the difference. Like, I I'll get orders and I treat each order uniquely, right? Um I now I slow roll things. Like, if anybody works with me, they know like I, you know, with everything that I have going on, it's like it could be if if you're in a window where could I could get it done in a week, then I'll do it in a week. But if we miss that window, it could be uh quite a bit more time. So my my I don't really like keep traditional books. Um I have in the past, and I've kind of pivoted back to uh just doing work that I want to do, and then people can buy it. But I will tell you that's uh I'm I'm pretty transparent. Like that that's hurt me in some ways because when I was when I was keeping books, there was a flow, like an expectation to my customer base. uh and the general populace on on what what that looks like but then switching back to um just making what i want and listing it i have to have a completely different marketing tactic for uh doing uh like one-off pieces and then gaining interest from uh you know the the the market for it right i i think like to your to your prior point about the production thing uh it's look I'm a custom maker I don't do once in a while I will send something off to have it water jet I do everything else by hand by myself in my shop I freehand grind everything I heat treat everything myself most of the time I profile everything out myself out of uh you know bar stock that it just because I place a premium on efficiency doesn't make me any less of a custom maker but if you you develop muscle memory on a temporary basis too I mean so I have a knife called the Ajax and it's got a hand ground fuller in it and it's hollow ground and it's got a swedge on it.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

It's a pretty involved grind. And I've probably made a hundred of those things. But if I sit down and and do if I grind five Ajaxes they'll all be within spec. I'm not gonna send anything out if it's not to my satisfaction. But the fifth one in a row is going to be the fastest and the best grind of those five. I may be the only one that'll be able to tell that but when you do repetition like that you get cleaner and you get faster. Those 27 knives for the show I glued those all up at the same time and it sucked and I hate it because glue up was one of my least favorite parts but I got really fast at gluing on scales and cleaning it up and clamping it and going to the next one. I got to the point where I would mix my epoxy and I could do three knives before my epoch my five minute epoxy was starting to get tacky and I had to do the next one. And compared to you know me just gluing a knife up it it you know the more you do something the faster you get at it. And the the more you can repeat a step before you have to change something, change a tool change where you're standing change what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

The more you can just stand there and work the the better your production's gonna be Henry Ford was crazy but he had that figured out yeah I I I agree with you it's I don't usually make I usually if I if somebody orders a slip joint I'll usually make two I'll make one for them and then one just to have if you know to and I I don't really take orders but you know somebody says but but also let me say this I'm not actively making knives so I'll usually not make a knife until somebody comes along and wants one and then I'll make two but but for Blade uh coming up in uh Atlanta I'll be going the first time and having a table so I thought okay I'm gonna try to make 10 knives and so if I can sell them you know hopefully make my money back and and some extra and so it made it it's a whole different mindset going from making two to making 10. And because oh yeah it's such it it it almost seems like you're not getting anywhere well for me because you're you're doing the same thing over and over. And I had I've had to kind of get in the mindset of okay well today I'm going to make pivot bushens on the lathe. And I'm gonna make I'm gonna make um bird's eye so I'm gonna make 10 pivot bushons and I'm gonna make 20 bird's eye bushons on the lathe. That's my goal. Well and and then if I if I kind of get in that mindset then when I get done with that and I'm not trying to think ahead of everything else I got to do when I get done with that you know there's some satisfaction okay well hey I've because that's one of my least favorite things to do. Okay well I've got pivot bushens built for 10 knives you know and then okay well now I'm gonna mill 20 liners for my knives. But yeah it it's taking a different mindset. I've had to kind of switch it from looking at okay I'm gonna build this knife to I'm going to build these parts and um but like you know to your point it is definitely more efficient because I don't have I have one grinder I mean I have I have like a horizontal and I have a vertical but I don't have like a bench full of vertical grinders that I can move from one to another. And I've got like one mill drill that I use. And so to to set that up and be able to do operation for 10 knives instead of doing one or two and then having to change the tooling and yeah I I in the long run it's gonna save me time. But I do like the satisfaction of getting something finished.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

So yeah you're gonna get that tenfold you know the night before you're gonna leave for Atlanta and you're looking at your dining room table and it's got ten perfect knives on it. That's gonna make you happy. Or just ten knives. Well you know be an optimist about it. There you go. I know and you don't worry you don't no you'll think they're perfect. You won't see what's wrong with them until you get to your table in Atlanta. That's that's how it goes every time. Matt so Matt Martin said to me at the last at the last blade show um he was he says to me I'm standing at his table and he says the light in here is really flattering this year for some reason they must have changed it out and I was like Matt your knives are perfect. It doesn't matter what the light is there's not a flaw on any of these knives. So uh you know maybe an hour later he's standing at my table and we're jaw jacket and I was like no you're you're right I think the light is better in here over here by the booths than at the tables where I was before and he he gives me the same look. He's like no your knives are getting better Alex I was like I don't I'm not comfortable with that statement get away from me get away from my table.

SPEAKER_04 49:46

Yeah I think uh I think a common a common problem in most crafts or most most like in in intelligent types of positions is uh imposter syndrome. Oh absolutely am I really any good or am I just uh faking it until I make it and I I think that you know in that that's one thing uh we we've talked about this in some past uh podcasts and whatnot and it's it's what does validation actually look like and as as an artist there there's nobody that's going to give you the the best nod to your work than yourself because that's the one where you come full circle and realize that you're doing all right. You know there's there's people that comment on my work sometimes and say hey this is good but I don't really let that I there's something in me that that it doesn't excite my ego too much because like there's lots of people that will will give me comments on it like people that I admire where I'm not sure whether they're just being kind to encourage me or whether legitimately I push beyond myself and they're impressed right um but it doesn't affect like I like if I'll go back into the shop and I'm like okay well how do I actually replicate this for next time like this feeling of euphoria where I felt that the knife was great that other people do as well and then how do I lather and repeat that for works in the future right yeah and and that's like like how how do you commit that to permanent memory where you can like you can always do that and it's just that like the next thing uh that you can push into and uh uh I again like your your knives really the quality the quality constantly gets better um but I I definitely identify with like shows being the worst place to notice flaws like my first few shows I would just pack a bunch of refinishing material it's like okay if I notice just this errant scratch on my satin finish um what am I gonna do? How am I gonna buff this thing? And that actually is a a subject probably for maybe a micro podcast or something on how to bring an emergency kit because like uh you can bring a like you can't bring your buffing wheel uh with you from the uh from home but you can't bring a Dremel with the same kind of compound that you use and buff uh errant scratches and things like that out and I found myself sometimes doing that it's just something about it where like I I didn't maybe I didn't inspect things as good as I should have at home but it it like everything looked fine like you're checking all these these boxes off and whatnot and then you get to a show or where you're supposed to be and it's like just this one thing you're like I I think I could have done it a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

So okay hot take if you're gonna do that your emergency kit should be WD 40 paper towels and a piece of dough skin because if you can't fix what you have going on with those three things you don't need to be worrying about it. All of the effort and this is getting into the the the the black hole that is the mental health of a craftsman and that's not something to be taken lightly all of the effort and the grief and the stress that you've put into leading up to that show where even if you're a full-time knife maker you're not getting paid for all the time you're spending on that show. So you have made yourself a hobbyist again because there's no money in it until you sell it at the show. So all of that energy has come to a point there and it's the work is done. There's no more to be done there's no point in stressing yourself out trying to fix something that you didn't notice until you got there. So you have two choices you can either put it under the table and decide not to sell it fix it when you go home and sell it to someone on online or whatever. Or you can say this is the knife that I have and if someone wants to buy it they'll buy it. If someone doesn't they don't but either way when you're standing at that table you have to present the best version of yourself that you can for these people and you have to remember that this is the closest thing to a vacation that you're ever going to get hanging around all of your knife people and enjoying yourself and seeing all the cool stuff that you only see on Instagram and you know like oh God there goes Jason Knight and all the all the like you know celebrities that are in this world. You're supposed to be there to have fun. You are supposed to hang out with your friends that you never get to see you are supposed to enjoy yourself because that's your reward for putting in all that extra work and going to the show. Guys like Jason Knight or Matt Martin could do the same thing and sell everything they make without ever leaving their shop because they have that following they go to the show for the show experience. So you have to value that for what it is if you're not present if you're not you're cheating yourself and ultimately just creating a negative association in your head because in six months or in nine months when the time comes to get ready for the next year's show you're not going to remember that scratch. You're gonna remember whether you had a good time and whether all the suffering that you're about to put yourself through is worth going there again.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

Yeah that's um that's actually a really good point and I don't I don't think that really it gets discussed a whole lot is there there is like a a mental a mental health uh component to the craft that it it just it just doesn't get talked about um I mean I see like lots of knife makers uh getting sick with like cancers or heart disease or things like that later on in life and I've always wondered whether that's a certain component of like the actual carcinogens and things but and also the stress with the craft but um but yeah I they there's some there there's some advice that I gotten early on that's like if you don't sell a knife uh during your like your first day then you should like go back to your hotel room and take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror and I I I I have never been the kind of person to uh really do that and what I mean by that is that um there are factors to selling that have nothing to do with whether your product is good or not right and everything to do with the situation and if you look at a knife show as like the the de facto place to sell knives I don't I don't really know if that's healthy because there are lots of situations where a lot of good makers don't sell any knives uh and that that goes from your local shows all the way up to the art knife invitational like you there's there are situations that are beyond your prediction or control and it has sometimes nothing to do with your craft.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

You're right. And it there's there's a duality to it. I mean you can't just you can't use that as an excuse if if there is if there is a flaw in one of your products that you've identified then that is because you were not better than you are and you should be better next time. But you need to process that your way in your time so that you can deal with it the way you want to you do not need to internalize someone else some imaginary person's perceived opinion of your knife. It's not going to do you one bit of good. You know that you messed up whether you knew it was happening at the time or not you know you don't want to repeat that mistake you're not going to repeat that mistake so live with it. Just carry on carry forward you don't have to get it you don't have to treat yourself like your own drill sergeant you have to take care of yourself because no one else is going to even the people who are in your life that you love you your family that are supporting your business your fellow makers no one really understands what you go through except for you standing there at the grinder and processing what you're doing next how you prioritize stuff what's important to you what you want your table to look like what up what kind of knife you want to make and if you lose sight of that then that's how you end up with a table full of uh loveless copies that no one wants to buy.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

I'm gonna make a statement which I'm sure a lot of knife makers out there would disagree with me because I've I've kind of heard it I've not made the statement before but I've heard I've heard people say and this goes to the the idea of you know Aaron this guy telling you that and well I'll let me make two comments first of all the idea about not selling a knife. Now I've I've only been to a couple of knife shows I'm talking about even just as a guest I've never set up at one so this will be the first time for me. And so I honestly don't have real high expectations because I I've been to a couple and I've been to Arkansas a couple of times just as a guest and then to Blade last year. Man there's so many people at Blade there's so many tables and so many people selling stuff and and you know like um well you know we had we had um Matt Column on last week you know I hung out with him for a little bit last year and at his table and and he had some really beautiful knives you know and I think he I think he sold some I think he left with some but there's just so much competition. I don't see how anybody could make a statement like that. You know there's only so much money. I know there's a lot of people out there but there's a lot of competition and there's and you know especially for a knife like mine I mean my knife is is my knife's just a good carry knife. I mean it ain't fancy or anything like that. There's probably nothing about it that's gonna make it stand out you know to to to all the people walking around. And honestly you know Alex like you're saying I could I could anything that don't sell I could probably come home and sell online quicker than I could sell there and could have saved my money but I'm going for the experience you know but but this idea also about you know everybody has to have their own standards and you can't let other makers set your standards because I feel like to me there are times where I enjoy knife making and there's times where I don't and when I start getting stressed with knife making that that makes me not enjoy it and makes me not want to do it. And one thing that I've kind of done over the years because I'm not going to make a perfect knife but if I run into an issue with a knife now if it's something that's just gonna make the knife not work you know I mean I I'll I'll start over or redo it something but I'll give you examples this knife I was working on I was putting bolsters on I spot welded the bolsters when I was shaping the bolsters man I gr I ground down I was profiling them and I got a little too far down and there was like this little pen hole in the bolster in the spot weld and so I'm sitting there thinking man I got a lot of time in in this knife I could chunk this knife and start over or I could contact the customer and tell them and and this is what I do most knives that I I before you know when I finish a knife for a customer I usually send them an email with a picture of everything that I think could have been better and I give them the option to buy the knife and in his case I said look I'm gonna knock a hundred bucks off of it if you want this. If you don't I'll be glad to start it over I'm just gonna have to you know it's gonna be a couple of months before I get back to it. And give him the option. You know make him make you know not slip it not pass anything over him or or pull any wool over his eyes but show him hey here here's the knife you know it ain't gonna be perfect. Here's what I see wrong with it and do you want this? And he he it was something he said he was going to carry every day and it's gonna get scratched up so he wanted it. Ends up I had some other issues with it and told him you know what I'm just gonna have to start over and do you a different one. But but still I mean you know the point if everything else had gone smooth from that point I would have still sold him that knife. Now a lot of guys wouldn't um but again I I feel like for me anyway hey if I'm gonna be square and upfront with the customer and if that if they want me and I've had them who wanted me to start over you know there might be a little something with the blade and they might want a second one. And I was like that's perfectly fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

You know I'll put this one in my pocket maybe I'll give it to one of my friends who could couldn't care less you know I do that all the time half the half the guys in my office have my cosmetic seconds that I have been less than thrilled with and I've offered it to them like say hey this is what's wrong with it. I can't I don't want to sell it but it's a perfectly fine knife it'll you know it it works well it'll serve you for the rest of your life if you would like to have it then it is yours. And that's that's what I do. I'll find a I'll find a way to give it a purpose. I'm not just gonna let it sit. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:32

Yeah and that's also you know I bring I bring these like a little adages up quite a bit like a uh like philosophical type of things because you know as a as a fledgling knife maker when I was getting started and everything those are some things that stuck with me and like being uh a little bit of a contrarian it kind of irritated me um so as I've like gotten better at knives and everything I'm like it would be nice for new knife makers or uh those who are trying to push their own envelope to talk less about the philosophy of knives which is like an opinion and everybody has one and just talk about how do you fix things. You know like critically analyze a person's work or whatever and be able to give them an opinion on how to fix the thing versus telling them well hey like you should have you should have woken up on a different side of the bed today and ground that different and you suck and I'm going to try to say that you're bad in the nicest way possible versus giving you real real constructive criticism on how to fix things. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

Well first of all the answer to that question is always a dry Zack Belt or a black compound. Second of all that's how you can tell go into a show that's how you can tell a bully from someone who wants to help you. And I've always kind of judged it by that metric and really the nicest people aren't going to offer their opinion and Matt, I keep bringing him up he's who's always been my best critic and he's someone I'll go to and he'll spot a flaw on a knife immediately and say, you know, yeah you screwed this up you need to do this better he I have watched him walk up to my table at a show pick up the knife I did not want him to pick up immediately find the flaw in it not say anything put it down pick up a couple other knives and say only positive things about everything on the table because he knows I didn't ask for his opinion even though I value it and he knows I wouldn't be mad if he gave it to him if he gave it to me and he knows as well as I do because he pays close attention to his mental health he's an adult the show is not the time for that. The show is the time to enjoy yourself to you know to my earlier point. Matt's not a bully Matt is not someone who needs to point out a flaw in someone's work or even someone who feels compelled to offer you know unsolicited advice. He's just there for the show and that's the way that's the way everyone should approach it.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:06

If if if you spot something even if it's you know you tell someone hey you do this it takes no effort at all and you've you fix that issue and you never ever have it again if they didn't ask you keep your mouth shut yeah well a word to everybody listening then there's a there's a time and a place and sometimes there's neither a time or a place so um but so I mean kind of on that note you know we ask all of our guests if if there's like uh one or a set of things uh like recommendations or advice that you can give to new makers uh what would it be and so I'm gonna ask the same thing to you like if if you've learned a one or a few crucial uh uh elements of making knives that you feel that everybody that's coming up uh should know what would those b things be

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

Identify the people in your life. If you're if you are a maker, if you want to be a maker, if you're learning how to do this stuff, if you're in the very beginning stages of YouTubing stuff and listening to podcasts and just thinking, eh, maybe I should give this a shot. Know that you cannot do this alone. And you need to surround yourself with other craftsmen. You need to make friends with these people. You need to develop those relationships. Hey man, I really like the stuff that you're making. That's the coolest profile I've ever seen. I I I love it. Because those people will be the ones that are there for you when you have a question. So I have three people that I go to on the regular. I have Matt Martin, I have Jim Stewart, and I have Jim Skelton. Because I know the three types of answers I'm gonna get anytime I ask them a question. Matt Martin is gonna give me the answer that is he'll give me the hybrid answer. He will give me this is how I do it, and it takes skill and muscle memory to develop. But once you teach yourself this technique, it's the most consistent and reliable. Jim Stewart will give me, this is how I do it, because I can do it this way a hundred times in 45 minutes, and it's it's you know, I've taught myself how to do it, I've done it so much, now it's just it's it's the quickest, most efficient way to do it. He'll give me the production answer. Jim Skelton will give me, this is the one right way to do it, and it's gonna take you three days, and you're gonna hate yourself, but it's gonna be a hundred percent perfect, and there's no way to screw it up, and there's no way to do it better than this one perfect way to do it. And the thing that I end up doing is usually a hybrid of those three and wrong. And then I pick whichever method I want to go with from there. But the fact that I have that resource that I can I can I can pick which method to go and hear these different perspectives on how to do a given thing saves me so much time and trial and error. I mean, uh think about a weird list, like, okay, cleaning up the inside of a sharpening notch. You can't YouTube that. You can't search maybe uh like in an old knife forum somewhere. That's such a weird specific problem to have. But if I send Tom Cride a message, I'm like, hey, I've got a couple of your knives here and all the sharpening notches look really good and clean and finished, how do you do that? And then he sends me this photo of this insane thing that he fabricobbled uh, you know, with an old buffer that he's not using for anything else. I'm like, okay, that's not really useful to me, but now I know that there's a way to do it, so I'm gonna try and back engineer that. If you don't build those relationships, those contacts with other makers and and and have that, then you're it's gonna take you a long time to learn anything on your own.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:00

Yeah, those are uh that's really good advice. Because uh there's always a learning curve with everything. And by and large, any craft is a process of elimination, and by elimination, it's mistakes, right? Uh so all of the like let's go back to Night Watch by Rembrandt. Uh yeah, that wasn't his first painting. Like people look at the colors of the of the uh the Dutch uh artists and everything, and the lighting and whatnot, and they're like, Wow, this is uh pretty crazy stuff. Like, how do you how do they do that? Well, a lot of trial and error, mostly error. And I think it's important. Uh like I I do the same thing. My wife, my wife says I collect people, and as like full disclosure, I I I talk to a lot of people in the knife industry, um, not not just because I try to be personable, but also because you have just a wealth of information from all these different walks of life and all these different people, and they have all different perspectives. And I have the fortitude to be able to talk to them and to uh decouple opinion uh to what I actually need out of that, which is sometimes the the technical specifications of how to do something. Um and I I I agree, I think that's a very valuable to you know, surround yourself with the kind of uh people that emulate the maker that you want to be. And if you do that, if you do that and you can find some way not to bug them uh to the point where they don't like you anymore, then I think that you've hit a secret sauce.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

I don't think I ever really tried to do that. Those are just the three guys that stuck around no matter how much I I I agree with.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:45

Yeah, they they became your tribe, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:49

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Oh Alex, this is uh I really enjoyed talking to you and uh yeah, thanks for thanks for joining us for this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:58

Absolutely, it's been it's been a pleasure. I really appreciate you guys uh taking the time and and inviting me on here.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:04

Yeah, absolutely. And we'll uh uh we'll go ahead and post all of your social media information and everything. Uh one thing I do want to cover before we leave is because like people can reach out directly to you for orders, but there is a slew of of dealers that you work with in order to sell your work. Can you uh talk a little bit more about them, how they can get a hold of your how you know customers can get a hold of your knives from those places?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:30

Sure. Um so Buccaneer Knives is is one that we work with, and uh I've got I bring them up first because um in April I'm supposed to send a few pieces to to James Um at Buccaneer Knives, and then we've we've done a couple of runs in the past with DLT trading, and there's absolutely gonna be more of that happening this year. Um nobody cares about my personal life stuff, but it it's been a little bit of a roller coaster the last few months. Things have been slower than I would have liked in the shop as a result of that. But kind of getting back into the swing of things, um, I've got everything planned out for the next uh couple of small batches I'm gonna send to DLT, and they I think they still have a couple of pieces from the last run. So um they've got a couple of those interlopers left, which are really cool. Um But there's going forward, my goal is to always have something available at DLT um and to have kind of a rotating basis, uh sending them you know small runs, 20 pieces at a time or so um to start. Uh in addition to that, the books are always open on the Facebook group. If you pay attention to that, that's where I will kind of dispense of a prototype that I had that I wanted to make, or um, if I you know have just every once in a while we do a waffle, um opportunities will come up for you to snag knives on the Facebook group as well. Um you can send me a DM on Facebook, you can send me a DM on Instagram, uh, you can send me an email. It's just nightwatch knives at gmail.com. Um, whatever your preferred method of contact is, uh you can get a hold of me that way and I can point you in the right direction.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:08

Well, thanks, buddy. I really appreciate all of your time uh and talking to us. There's lots of good things that we can unpack uh from your interview. So I mean I encourage our listeners to really take a few listens to this because uh a lot of the subjects that Alex is talking about are things that I I think uh are highly valuable to new and uh established makers alike. So thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:34

So thanks everybody uh for listening to uh the Good Old Blades podcast. Um just remember that you are loved and God bless.