SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome. Good old boys.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Thank you for listening again to the Good Old Boys Podcast. I am your host, Darren Levere, and I'm joined by my co-host Chris Crawford. And we have special guest Matt Collin from Collin Custom Knives. He's a uh custom flip joint maker, makes fixed blades, and excavation. And uh Matt, it's a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Absolutely. So, Matt, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, uh, Chris and I know you pretty well, but for the rest of the world who doesn't know your personal life so much, I mean, share what you want to, but uh what do you do for a living, uh family stuff, you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

All right. Um well, I'm a superintendent over excavation company. I do that full time. And uh between family and uh when I have time, I you know, I generally try to get out to the shop every every day to build knives. Um I got a one son, he's thirteen. I'm sorry, he's fourteen. And between that and church, it's about all I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

That seems like a full-time job plus then, right? Uh so what what got you into knives? Uh can you talk a little bit about your your history with them, what your f like first exposure was to knives.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Yeah, so when I was younger, my dad, he was in the military, and uh me and my brother, we live with my grandfather, and uh he made pocket knives and uh did a lot of gunsmithing and stuff. So I think I was right about 12, uh first knife ever made, which was a pocket knife. And uh kind of a funny story about it. We uh we had been watching my grandpa and he's been kind of teaching us, you know, on how to make them. And uh me and my brother had the bright idea that we was gonna make our first one. And uh we found some old rods out in one of the buildings, and we thought it'd be perfect for handles. So we made these knives and we're done with them. We went over and showed our grandfather, he's like, Y'all did a good job, and he was smiling, but at the time we didn't realize what we had done. The next day we we had got up and we used our knives a little bit, you know, being young and uh excited about having something, especially something you made, you know. And uh our hands was tore up. And we went out there and we would tell him our hands was all messed up, and uh he said, Let me see your hands. And we showed him and uh he asked to see our knives. Well, come to find out we had used fiberglass rods, some old fiberglass rods we got off a job for the handles. So I guess you would call it a shadow powder. It was pretty much just a fiberglass rod on the handles, a spring and a blade. And uh so that was my first account of making a knife, and the reason I did make them was because of him, you know, seeing him do it and being interested in it. Which too, you know, that was a good while back. That was back in part 99, 1999.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

So your granddad was was already making knives when you were a little kid, and did he make primarily make folded knives? Did he make them to sell or um what was his involvement with with knife making?

SPEAKER_03 3:47

He actually it was mostly pocket knives, that's just pretty much all he'd done. He had been making them before we had come along, but really he made them and gave them to the family members and close friends. So I actually I collect his knives, so uh if I know somebody that's got some of his knives, I'd buy 'em or build knives for them to get their knives, you know. Um so he pretty much always made them. He didn't sell them. But we gotta remember too, uh, you didn't have Facebook. Um and I'm sure my grandfather at the time wasn't aware of how big the knife community actually was. Um, I know I didn't realize how big the knife community was until I later on decided back in 2019 to start back making knives. Um so most of his knives are circulated right here local.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

What particular pattern, what was one of his patterns that he made?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Um pretty much um like the Buck 110. I believe, well, like a lot of people, you know, the Buck 110 was a popular knife just for a cheap popular knife. So um I know this there is one pattern he built a lot, and as as he as he um continued making knives, you see where he tweaked that pattern and turned it into his own pattern. Um and then he made a case sodbuster, like a sodbuster pattern, and uh a two-blade trapper.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

That's cool that you you had, you know, you were exposed to the idea of knife making at such a young age. I think a lot of people now, a lot of kids are exposed to it just from you know, like the Forge and Fire show or whatever, but uh, you know, I I never even knew people were making knives themselves until I was an adult, pretty much. And uh, but yeah, to have that have that exposure at such a young age, um, that's that's really interesting and really cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Well, yeah, and too, you know, too, being young, your grandfather does something. You're like, oh man, you know, I got the most awesome grandfather there is, you know, he does this, you know, as a kid's mentality, but um it was uh at the time, I can honestly say I was interested in it off and on until I was probably about 20 or 21, maybe about 20. That was about the last time I made one with him. I made multiple knives growing up, and uh a funny story about one, and it was actually the pattern I started backbuilding, and uh I haven't built it since I've swapped over to column custom knives, but um I've actually built a good bit of them. But this particular pattern here was his evolution of the butt 110, it became smaller, um had more of a s of a sway in the clip point. Um overall, it's a I mean it's a great pattern. But uh I had built this knife, it was the last one I built. And uh when we was kids, you know, what started is you didn't go to the store and buy a knife. You know, my grandpa he hated he hated stainless steel because every time you bought a knife it was junk. If it was just it just didn't hold an edge, and you know, a lot of old timers they wanted it high carbon. And um so that's kind of how we knew if we needed a knife, we had to go make a knife. And uh the last one I made, I had a guy at a job. I've had that knife for about four years. I carried it every day, but I always knew my grandfather said, you don't loan out your knife. Uh somebody'll be over there digging out a nail with your knife or using his screwdriver. And uh we was on a job and uh I loaned the knife to my buddy, and for like a year I kept telling him, No, you need to buy you a knife, or I'd carry a cheap knife, and every time someone wanted to borrow one, I'd let them use that, I wouldn't let them use the knife I made. And uh this knife I forgot to get it back from him, and the next day I was like, hey, I need my knife back, and he couldn't find it. It was gone. So this yeah, this knife had actually got uh prior to this event, it had actually gotten stolen from me, and I was in a store and um the store here local, a guy had bought it off another guy and had it in there in his display case for sale. And uh needs to say I had to buy my old knife back for five dollars. So you know, it made me feel real great. Um first time uh somebody's ever bought my knife. I can honestly say I was the first one to buy my old knife at five dollars. Uh I was really upset.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

But I bought my first knife, uh first knife that got sold, somebody else collected the money and I had to pay for it.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Um That's funny.

SPEAKER_04 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

You you saying that about not loaning your knife uh made me think about like when I go to when we have our family Christmas get togethers for our gift opening. I always carry two knives. I I carry my knife and then I carry a pass-around knife. So if somebody asked, because one year not long after I started making knives, we were at one of them and somebody asked, uh, does anybody have a knife? And I thought, yeah, you know, and hand them my my pocket knife I'd made, and I look over there and they're about to try to take a screw out with it. I was like, hold on, you you asked for a pocket, you asked for a knife, not a screwdriver. But you're right, man. That's a that's the quickest way to come back with a blunt tip, but uh that's that is funny.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

You know, and most people don't realize um the time, the craftsmanship that goes in a knife unless you are making a knife. Um so you might spend 10 to 15 hours building a knife, and you hand them a knife, they might think, oh, that's great. But then again, if they're type just buying a knife, use it as a screwdriver, they they have no respect for it, you know. And uh I've got a motto I live by. It's there's three things you don't loan out. That's your wife, your knife, or your handgun.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

You you keep them close. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

So Matt, um, 2019, you got started back in the slip joints. Can you uh talk a little bit more about that and like what what prompted that?

SPEAKER_03 10:10

I was uh I've always kind of wanted to get into blacksmithing. Um it's still it's still one of my goals, but uh what I did I was sitting there, me and my wife, we actually watched Forging the Fire. And uh I told her, you know, I wanted to get into blacksmithing. Um more or less, I guess, work with like wrought iron and stuff. Nothing necessarily for knives. And uh I got to pricing some of this stuff, like just an anvil, and some of the prices, and I I couldn't fathom me just spending all this money for a hobby out of our personal income through our work. And uh I had told my wife I think I was gonna start back making pocket knives and try to sell a few to buy some blacksmithing tools.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Did you already have knife making equipment at that point?

SPEAKER_03 11:03

No, I had nothing.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

So that it didn't um So how how were you figuring on I mean it seems like you'd have an investment either way, right? With either blacksmithing or knife making.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Yeah, I had a I had a yeah, it was a big investment. It's uh I was actually, as I said, I was doing excavation for a living. I actually had my own trucking and excavation business on that I did as well. I had got rid of that while I found myself with free time at the house and uh what I did instead of still to this day I do the same thing. You know, I'm I guess I'm going on three years since I've really can say hey I started making knives. Even though I originally made some when I was younger, I went to I was about 19 or 20. What I've done is everything that every time a knife sells, that money strictly goes back to the knives. So the past three years of knife making I've generated I've built my shop, expanded it, and bought all my tooling with strictly knife money. So at the time, my idea of a pocket knife, I had no idea, as I was saying earlier, how big the knife pocket knife world was. I d I didn't even know they had a blade show. Um so in 2019 I never even knew there was a blade show. I never knew you had all these guys that made these knives. And as I got sorted back into it, um I just started looking at pocket knives on Facebook. And uh then I started noticing some people's names popping up. I started clicking on them and then I started seeing these knives, and I realized that you know there's a big market for pocket knives, and um it kind of has grown from me when I started back. I was selling pocket knives at $75 um to where I am now.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

You come a long way in three years. I mean, I know you said you had a a history, you know, an older history with with knives, but to really get back into it just three years ago, man, you you've really come a long way. You come you come further in three years, and I probably come in 20.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Well, you know, I when I started back, some people might think it's crazy, but you know, I come from a background where you didn't we we had a a one by four my grandfather had a one by forty-two belt grinder. It was a just a craftsman. I actually still got it out there in my shop. It's it's right there. Um so there was no middle and liners. Um we used one-eighth pin stop. We used uh we drill our hole with a one-eighth on our pivot, and we'd use a three-sixteenth drill bit and reverse to ream that hole just enough to swell that pin head in. Um so compared to where the way I was taught, and it was great. Um, you know, I I wouldn't change none of it. Um because honestly, all them knives I can get my hands on, I snatch them up. So I I I clipped all my grandfather's stuff. So it is it is my stepping stone, but compared to what I started back making them to what how everybody's making knives now, it's a world of difference. And I can only imagine somebody that's been making knives for 20 years, 30 years. You know, they started and and stayed involved and helped promote it. And really, if a man's gonna get into making knives, pocket knives, especially today, and be involved with his fellow peers, he's really gotta up his game. And uh one thing I noticed is there's people out there making knives that just blowed my mind. And uh it had almost got to where it's more of a s obsession. I would see a knife that somebody made and I was like, Well, I gotta be able to make that knife, and I'd have that in my mind, that uh I needed to achieve that goal. And uh I kept learning. Um I do know this as well, not every advice you get for making a knife works, you know. Um we all have our own ways of doing things, but I've I've had people intentionally tell me things and uh I realize, hey, that's not the way you want to do it, you know. Um so I guess what I'm trying to say is you get better the more mistakes you make, and then you learn how to correct a mistake because I think I've only made one good knife that just turned out great all the way through the whole working process. Um but I've learned how to, instead of throwing one in the trash, I've learned how to how can I fix this mess up, you know. So I I feel strongly it's not a how great of a knife we can make, it's how can I fix this, boo-boo? You know, can I make this knife good? Um, because we always run into problems.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Yeah, I was just talking to a guy, um, I guess he stopped by Sunday, and we had that same conversation, you know, and I told him that's one thing that I now he he he wasn't a new knife maker, but we were just on the subject, and I said, you know, one of the things that I do tell new knife makers is don't don't when you mess the one up, don't just quit it and throw it away and start over. Keep going, finish it out, because you know, part of it's just learning to make your mistakes. Sometimes the knife doesn't come out the way you you started it out, and it still ends up being a really good knife. But you know, stick with it because you're gonna it's kind of like a video game, you know. We we used to play these video games, or my kids will play these video games, and it's one where as soon as you mess up, like you start over and and just well, keep keep playing because you you need to play all the way through the round so you'll know what to expect. And and kind of the same thing with knives. Keep even though you make a mistake, keep going, keep going until you get done, and then you're gonna learn a lot more than if you just scrapped it and started over every time.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Right, yeah. I think it builds a lot of character too, you know, but um there was a time where I would just throw them away. So I I'd be working on a knife and get to a point where I'm like, oh, there's no recovering from this. And now looking back, I say, man, if I had the ones I throwed away or the ones I, you know, I beat apart with a hammer, yeah. Um I could have saved them nice and and made them knife, but I believe the more mistakes you make and you learn how to correct the mistakes, that's what produces you to be a better knife maker. It's not striving to make that perfect knife every time. It just don't work that way. Because they are handmade. And uh the specs we're trying to meet now, it's you know, you you have flaws in them.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Something about that that's uh I guess a little bit different methodology from what uh Chris was talking about is I I I you know every knife that I make, there's there's some things that I know that I can wrap my head around fixing. But then there's just sometimes when you get a little bit stuck, and I will typically just throw those in a bin. I won't I won't chuck them, but I'll throw them in a bin. And if I'm looking for something to do, I'll I'll go through that and just do some of my previous work. And and sometimes I'll eye a knife and I'll I'll I'll it's just I I don't know. You just hit a a time when you're ready to uh to actually uh fix that mistake. And I can take a knife that was previously I thought was done for and rework it or maybe change it into something a little bit different. If it's not a fatal flaw like a crack because of heat treating or quenching or something that's messed up with the handle material or something, then usually I'll I'll just fix it all. But uh there is a there is the uh concept of diminishing returns on the knives too. Like if you make a mistake and it takes you 20 hours to fix something that you could just uh go and replace by you know recutting it out and grinding and everything, then you have to make that economical decision eventually. But you know, I I definitely think that uh there is a a process of trial and error, mostly error in in just about every craft.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Yeah, I I agree. And um one of the one of the things I do, so if I got uh I got two sets of I'm sorry, I got one set of handles off a muskrat that I have nailed on my wall in front of my desk that I've messed up on. And it was due to a shrinkage of some well spine. And uh I have a side buster blade hammered in a wall. That way every day I go out there and I when I sit down at that desk to get started, I have to look at that and remind myself, you know, don't do this again. Um could I take it off the wall and fix some of it? Yeah, I probably could, but I like to have that reminder. I know some people say they throw their parts in a box, but uh I just kind of like it to be right there in my face to remind me, you know, don't do this again.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, so uh when you started making slip joints again, uh your first hundred knives were in in uh homage to your grandfather, right? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Yeah. So when I started back making knives, I had actually my grandfather had done passed away and everything, so I had actually gone over to his shop and uh I got um some of his patterns. Well, I actually I got every one of his patterns, um and I was out there thinking I made one for my wife. I ended up having to take back, you know, because it had gone all those years without making a knife. I actually had cut some, uh we did some land clearing I cut a poplar tree down. So I used the wood out of the poplar, and uh I had some of the green and the sapwood in there, so it was green and green and brown, green and white, you know. Um turned out really great, and it was like a little pen knife. Um that was the first one I made when I started back in 2019. I gave it to my wife. Well, I realized I had forgot to room the holes, and uh I ended up taking it back. I still got it out there in desk. She asked about it all the time, but it's you know, it's just there. Um don't want to fix it because it's the first one I started back. It just reminds me of where I am now versus where I was. But I was out there thinking, I was looking at them patterns, and I was thinking, well, you know, these are patterns that my grandfather had ended up being his patterns, you know. He had moved away from like I said earlier, the butt 110 to his own uh patterns. So I was out here and I started building his uh knights, and uh I got thinking I would have build a hundred of these and his. His name. So what I did is uh he was an old crane operator, and everybody called him duck legs because when he walked, his toes turned into each other. So everybody called him duck legs, and I was thinking I need to do something to kind of honor him. It kind of tells the history of um where I started and kind of where I come from. So I decided to build a hundred knives under the name of duck leg. And I actually got it um that I uh trying to think of what you call that, where you get it through the state or whatever. What is it called? It's copyright. So I got duck legs copyrighted still to this day, but um I made a hundred of them, and my hundredth one was all of them under duck legs. And uh by the time I got to about eighty, I started getting where I felt like I was doing pretty good. And uh I was really it was really the ball was really rolling real good, and I told myself, well, I can't continue to make them under this name. I need to I need to have my name on there, my last name on there. Um and that's after that hundred, I had switched over to column, which is column customized.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Matt, on those hundred that you were making, were you selling those or what were you doing with them?

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Yes, I I was selling them. So it started out, I was selling them to people that knew me, uh a lot of people that knew the family. You know, they knew they knew that my grandfather made knives. They knew me and my brother had actually made knives, and um but I had went a long time without making no more. When I got started back making them, I started kind of posting them on Facebook and stuff, and it kind of just got a lot of attention and uh you know, a lot of the I'd say the first 40 was definitely just the people wanting to support me, you know. Um I wouldn't have nothing. Um that's one thing I realized if it wasn't for the people, you know. We can make whatever we want, we can do whatever we want, but if ultimately people ain't buying support, and you can't make a knife. Um you might make one here and there, but you're not gonna make a bunch of knives, and you're not gonna be able to do it and make money at it. Um because it is expensive. If it's gonna be a hobby, it's a pretty expensive hobby. So I was selling to a lot of people I knew, and then it got to where other people was telling people about that, and then they was buying them, and before I knew it, I was overwhelmed. Um and then I made an announcement, you know, that I would be discontinuing the duck leg brand and moving over to Colum for some knives, and then it's like when I done that, a bunch of people was jumping in line, and at the time I had no idea really about how to take orders and stuff, and I was so far backed up that I think I made about another hundred knives under column before I was ever caught up. Um and I'm pretty much where I am today. I'm obviously still behind, but um still trying to catch up. Um I guess it's another um it's a good thing to have, but it's uh a process too, considering I work full-time and then trying to make knives and raise a family, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah, and then one thing that's interesting, I I I think I think I got introduced to you through social media um because you had sold some like larger blocks of Makarta. I don't know whether it was like through the grapevine or whatever, that there was some older vintage stuff like I don't know, like maybe some like butterscotch, micarta or something like that. And uh and so I've pretty much been following you since you've been in knives, but I I don't think that we really uh became friends uh online until I started uh working with you on your website and everything, which that's uh that's kind of like where I got to really know more about the duck leg story and more about you. So I I think if if anyone uh has a takeaway uh from this uh uh episode other than just getting to know you more, it's that the every uh progression of a of an artist or a craftsman's uh like life in that craft is different, but uh you're really only limited by your imagination and really the support system that you have behind you. So it's actually been really cool, uh Matt, to see you progress over the years because uh you know the like where you've come from with your first few uh duck-leg knives, getting back into it and the uh and the quality and the uh tolerance that you're meeting now are quite a bit different. And if anybody wants to actually look at that and show just like a an exponential um like maturity and growth in in uh making knives, just look at you know past posts or things like that that you have because I mean it's pretty uh it's pretty incredible like the work that you're doing now versus uh when you started back up and you're getting your legs uh back under you.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Right. You know, and as you had said, you you know, when I was building under duck leg, I was kind of still more um, I guess you'd say local. Um I don't even think I found out about some of the groups most of us are in, uh sniff makers like the custom slip joint and uh making lockbacks and stuff. I don't I didn't figure out about that till pretty much I believe I was already moved over into the column side. So I know I kind of just popped up out of nowhere on the social media side. Um so a lot of people don't know uh the history, I guess, of the first hundred I did under another name, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Yeah, but that doesn't seem to have hurt you too bad. I mean, uh I I noticed in fixed blades, I spent a lot of time doing like research and development and prototyping and things before I started selling a lot. And then I started uh uh you know getting my knives photographed and uh was popping up in publication and stuff. And uh I I will say that for me, like the sales side of knives was a lot slower. But I've you know it's it's good to see examples like yours where you can pop up and you start really building a lot of momentum in the uh the new uh new collector market and everything, because uh uh that's a really difficult transition to make. Like going from uh going from being a a no uh no recognition type of name to actually having people uh you know share your work on social media and stuff and collect them actively and want to be on your books and you know keep aware of what you're doing. So, you know, it's that's you're a a good use case for for that as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Yeah, it you know, uh I just have a mindset where it's like I you know, some people ask me, and you know, I'm still learning in the process of how everything works too, you know, but um like I tell some of the guys they ask me, I say just make the knife if somebody don't buy it. Um, you know, if you're if you're not I do believe that you have to be producing knives. I I because I look at it as not only is somebody buying a knife from me, but they're buying my name, you know, and uh to me the most valuable thing that we can put in a knife is our time. You know, that's something we never get back. Um so far I haven't had a I haven't had a comeback on a knife, but um, I know that day that day's coming. Um it's just a matter of time, but I'll gladly take it back, you know, pay the full refund and uh either make them a new knife or fix the one they have. But I do believe you gotta have a mentality where you're just gonna make knives. You know, you have to get out there and get out there and make them, you know, because I know as if I was a collector and I was buying from a guy, I'd want to be buying from a guy that's producing knives. Um because I want to buy a bunch of knives, a few knives off a guy, and then he's done making knives, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Yeah, that's something that I I don't know if we've really touched a lot on that yet, but in the in the collector market, especially, um, you have uh collectors who are speculative collectors, right? So they they look at a a maker and they'll follow their career for a while. And if that maker washes out, you know, makes some really good knives, but for a short period of time and they don't don't do anything else in knives, they won't even touch them as a collector because uh they'll be more than happy to put money down on your product, but if they feel that that's not going to at least be as valuable, you know, six months, a few years from the time that they purchase it, and they can get their money back on the secondary market, then they won't even they won't even buy from you. But then the other type of uh collector is uh as a supporting collector, right? So they see your work, they see the the trajectory, and they want to uh help you along. So I'm not gonna say that they're like pity purchases, um, but you know, if somebody really believes in what you're doing and they like you as a person and everything and they like where you're going, they'll buy your uh your product because they want to help support you and get you to that next level. But that does require you actually making things to prove uh to prove to them that that investment was was wise, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Yes. And uh, you know, too, as a knife maker, you if anybody's gonna make knives, and I do believe every knife maker starts out locally and you price yourself out local. I mean, it gets to where you as you say and you have support collectors, um, you know, you eventually you you're priced out locally. Um you try to I try to produce a knife, but every knife I make, I try to I I do. I spend time on that knife. I'm not worried about how fast I can produce a knife, but how good I can produce a knife, because it don't matter if I'm selling to somebody in France, if I'm selling somebody in Europe, if I'm selling to somebody right here at the house, I want that knife to be just as nice as if it's a knife that I'm willing to take to a show and show off. That individual, if he feels he's received uh his money's worth, he's gonna buy more or he's gonna tell somebody about you. So that's one mentality I've always had is you know, all my scratches are on one way, making it the best I can. Um there's been times that one of my I guess my great support would be my wife, you know. I'd come in and show my wife, and uh don't uh, you know, if you don't want an honest answer, don't ask her what you don't ever ask her what you think about the knife you just made, you know, because there's many times she'd point something out and I and I and I knew in my stomach just it could be something so small and so minute that most people wouldn't notice. But she would tell me and it would bother me so bad. I I'd many times I'd go back out to the shop and break that knife apart and redo it. Um but having a support system too to push you to continue to make the best product you can make, I think that's where you're you really it helps you a long way, but also it lets a customer know that you take pride in what you make and you're just not out there beating something together trying to make a dollar, you know?

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah, I think uh the biggest mistake I I make is when I ask my wife for her honest opinion on on what I do. You know, um it's funny because um I I I make a uh a fixed blade that I'm really proud of, right? I mean, just everything that I put into it, uh, you know, I try to make them all uh professional photograph worthy. And uh one time I asked my wife, because I would make the sheaths too, because I didn't you know parse that that out or anything, I was like, what do you think about like the entire thing? And she's like, honestly, Aaron, like your sheaths could do a lot of work. She's like, you have really nice, really nice knives, but if you're you know putting them in those sheaths, like like she made a face, and I was like, oh man. I kind of got a little bit, a little bit like upset. I was like, like, what are you talking about? And uh it took a little bit of bickering uh and then a little uh like quite a bit of introspection. I was like, you know what, she's right. And it's I don't have a problem with uh admitting that she's right because it's happened so often. But um, but really, you know, whether it's fixed plates or whether it's uh how you're setting up your pocket knives or things like that, it's the entire package, right? That that starts that starts with the knife that you make, but it also goes into whether you're putting it in a zipper case or whether you're like your uh certificate of authenticity, how you package it, and like everything, if you take pride in that and you make it the best that you can, that really means a lot uh because that it's that wow factor when you open it and and you see everything that's in its place and it gives you that. I don't know, rather than having buyer's remorse, you're actually elated to have that thing and to spend the money on it.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yes, you know, it's like have you ever seen that really beautiful fixed blade that's just in a sheath that shouldn't be in? Um and that's my deal with fixed blades. Um, I like them, and there's some great fixed blade makers out there. I think I've made probably maybe seven fixed blades, period. Um, but I know that if I make a fixed blade, I have to make a well, let me take that back. I've probably made eleven because I did post some on my website, some small ones and a big one. But um the thing about a fixed blade is you've got to have a sheath. And um I'm not willing to invest the time in to being a good sheath maker. There there's some knife makers that should be sheath makers, and there's some sheath makers that should continue to make in sheaths. I mean, they're just really, really good at it. And um I believe sheath making itself is just like in knife making, you know, there's people that's really good at it, and um so I I guess that's why I continue to really stay away from fixed blades. Um, because it if the whole package ain't great, then you got a problem there, you know?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, it's also the time commitment. I mean, uh I've I've gone through the journey of trying to make uh good sheaths, and there there's something about like cutting it out, like the stitching and stuff is not as much of an issue, but you know, you gotta punch the holes in it, you gotta cut it out right. Uh it has to fit the knife well. And uh I didn't actually get to a place where I'm proud of my sheaths until I actually got a a laser cutter. Uh now I I could cut them out based on pattern, they're starting to look pretty good. But the the pivot for me was if I can laser out the uh the veg tan leather and get all of the proportions correct and then stitch it all from there, it made it a lot easier for me. But the investment for a laser, because I was using it for other things, wasn't as much of a an issue. But somebody can't just walk into buying like a diode laser or something and spend you know eighteen hundred bucks and try to try to make an economical purchase that way. Like so, uh, I mean, if if somebody's making fixed blades and they're not really great sheath makers, there are quite a few like artisan sheath makers that make really good sheaths that you can buy them from you know $35 to $85. And if you if that if that works in your price range and everything, you just send the knife out and they'll make the sheaths for you and send it all back to you, and you can, you know, parse that out where you don't have to worry as much about the time and skill set investment uh for producing fixed blades. So it's it's not a deal breaker, but you gotta think you gotta like swallow your pride a little bit. If you're not good at that, you gotta say, okay, you know, who else can do that that's better? And is it economical?

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Right. You know, and uh I guess one of the perks for me is um I you know, uh there for a while I was turning down, or I I would just would not build them when people would ask, because there's a large customer base for fixed blades, but my son has gotten involved, so now when somebody wants me to make a fixed blade, I'll I'll you know, I'll just tell them, you know, that I can I'm not gonna be able to make it, but I can have my my son would be glad to make it. And uh so if he stays involved with it, um that's something he can pick up the slack on my end, you know. It's uh one of the worst things though is when he finishes a knife and he's like, Dad, we gotta make a sheath. Can you help me? You know, so that's uh one thing I dread that I mean I enjoy doing it with him, but it's the sheath, you know, because you done finished the knife and everything, but now you need to build the sheath, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah, well if you don't watch out, your wife and uh and son are going to be outperforming you on making knives and everything because they both of them are real talented when it comes to making them and finishing them out.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

Yes, I've had uh other knife makers joke with me and tell me that I you know I need to paint the grinders pink and stuff for my wife and then give my shop over to my son, you know.

SPEAKER_04 39:32

Um but it it's it's great when the family gets out there and gets involved, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Yeah, absolutely. So um I I remember that when I uh got voting status in in the guild, uh you had applied. So are you you're currently a probationary member, uh going for voting member status this year, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:55

Yes, sir. I'll be going in for voting status in uh Texas show, the ICCE show. I think it's next month.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah. Yeah, March. March already. Um and what other what other type of projects do you have going right now? I mean, I know that you've been doing these large batches of uh muskrats, but talk a little bit about um the muskrat pattern itself and then kind of what you got going on with uh doing some bulk quarter stuff.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

Okay. Um, so I don't know, uh maybe about eight months back, I got into a kick of uh wanting to do multi-blades. Um so I had got to where there's a lot of patterns that I've made. There's a lot of knives that are my own pattern that I make, and uh I'll take some patterns and put my blades in them. But uh I guess what got me started and where I'm at right now is I had done a uh two blade trapper with my rattler blades, and um I moved from that, I still make that, but I've also moved into a muskrat pattern, which is my own pattern. And uh surprisingly, that knife has been pretty popular for me and been building a lot of them. Well now I've gotten to the point to where I am just about burnt out on building the muskrat. Um Hollinger, he's uh not too far from he's down south. He jokes around y'all see sometimes on social media, he'll put muskrat map, you know, because I've been making so many muskrats.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Um I like that.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Yeah, so I I there for a while I jumped off the muskrats and I I did a split back whittler just to try it. Um turned out great. And uh well I got from that to having to build a batch order for a guy down in Florida. And that's what I'm currently building. I'm still building these Muskrats now for this guy, and then I gotta get to building some for this show. But uh right now, currently too, I kind of got interested in building uh 1143, a remington rev 1143. So I'm in the process of building that pattern right now to produce that knife.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

So what's the uh what's the intention for uh like column custom knives in the future? Are you gonna continue to focus mostly on your own patterns or um with this Remington model, are you are you looking at trying to uh get more into the traditional uh patterns and that um like the pattern provenance that I've talked about where it's like you know, it's it's exact replicas of of old patterns?

SPEAKER_04 42:34

Well, you know, as you said earlier, you had probably met me through some McCartan stuff.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

So there for a while I was building a lot of knives where I could throw a lot of McCardo. But when I started originally making knives when I was a kid, we we made knives out of natural material. Um that's something I'm always drawn back to. Um but I can say with natural material you have so many problems that pop up um with natural material versus micarta. So I'm moving back in the steps where I'm kind of sick and tired of messing with it, um, the Makarta side. Um but I'm definitely gonna keep my patterns, uh, keep my personal patterns going. But I am moving towards the side where I'm I want to bring back knife patterns. Not there's a lot of knife patterns that people just think building not many of. Um so I would like to build up reduced knives, the traditional patterns, um, but also as well keeping my personal patterns going too.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Yeah, I don't think uh it like uh micarta and G10 are really stable materials to work with, but I don't think a lot of people know like how they used to manufacture Makarta and how like carcinogenic it is. So I mean you're using like it with phenolic resins, it's like formaldehyde based, right? And a lot of them would put like for the uh fibers, they would also put asbestos and things like that in it. So if you get them, depending on where you get it from, and depending on how old it is, you can actually have both the uh formaldehyde and the asbestos in there. And that's also not really great for the lungs or to be uh laying around in your shop.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

You know, and that was one of the issues because you do have to look and try to figure out what you're working with. Um you can't just buy any Macarda and say, hey, I'm gonna use this. Um you you can. I don't know how long you're gonna be able to do it for, but uh one of the issues I had is um I have to keep my shop clean. Uh I don't I can't stand stepping on stuff. Uh I don't like having grid in the floor. So my most used and prized tool is my broom. Uh uh people make fun of me for that too, but I am always sleeping. Um so what I had to do is I built a shop edition and I've added a big fan in this room. So if I'm grinding Macarder or something, I can flip that switch on and all the dust is instantly out. Um but it is like riding a motorcycle uh with no ferrin on and no helmet. Um, but I'm not having all that dust and breathing it in from a Makarta.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Yeah. So I mean, when it when it comes to carbon fiber, well, I there's something that I appreciate about um some knife makers, and it's that uh PPE has always been like a thing that they talk about because you only have one set of lungs and only uh one pair of eyes, right? But uh especially like uh I come from like coal mining country, and so black lung was a uh a big deal. Um and and it's all the carbon buildup in your lungs from uh mining coal. But then if you're doing any type of uh work with a limestone or other uh silica-based things, it's a silicosis or white lung, right? So when you're when you're grinding metal, um you can get silicosis. And uh things like carbon fiber, uh G10 and Makarta have very fine fibers that they they sit inside of your lungs. But the problem is that your lungs can't process them like they like some other um uh contaminants. So they just sit in there for forever, and then they start blocking up your avioli, which are the oxygen exchange uh components in your lung, and then you end up later on in life with like emphysema, you get pneumonia a lot easier and things like that. So, you know, it's not only like wear wear your respirator, not just a dust mask, wear your respirator and clear your uh clear those fibers out because you know the wind blows and you start breathing it in without a mask, you don't realize it, and then you can start getting these uh these uh uh breathing issues. It's it's kind of dangerous stuff.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Without a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

So um how how do you handle having back like a backlog of orders and then balancing that out with what you want to build and then also preparing for shows? Can you like talk a little bit about like what shop management and order management looks like in your shop?

SPEAKER_03 47:22

So the show side, I'm still learning the show side. I've I've only I've only done two shows. Uh last year I did a show in Atlanta and a show in well, I'll take that back. I've done three shows. I've done a show in uh uh Atlanta, I've done a show in Birmingham, and I've done a show in Arkansas. Um so the show side I'm still working on, I think I probably do pretty much like all the knife makers do. Oh man, here's a show, I gotta start building knives for this show. But you gotta keep your orders going out. So what works for me is if somebody wants me to build them a knife, I I tell them how far out I am, and I I would contact them before I start the knife, you know, uh make sure they're still on page because six to eight to nine months down the road, a lot could happen in an individual's life. So I try to message them and say, hey, I'm fixing to start your knife. Um are we still good to go? And if they say yeah, then I know okay, I'm I'm gonna build the knife. Um so what I try to do is if I want to build something I'm interested in, and that's the thing for a knife maker. Um the best way to get a knife maker motivated in making a knife is get him interested in something. So, like today, I I have all these knives growing on and I'm having to get built, and uh I gotta get this order filled and I gotta get knives made for this show. But I wanted to build this pattern, and uh I thought to myself when I was building it, man, I'm excited about building this pattern, so here I am, I'm getting it, you know, and uh it kind of moved me on through the process of the knives I'm working on. So, what I try to do, if it's a knife that uh uh another pattern that I'm wanting to produce to put out there or when I'm wanting to build for a show, I'll spend maybe an hour or two on it after I get where I need to be on my orders for the day. So I might find myself just a few hours a day working on something that I'm interested in versus dedicating 100% time. I try to break it down just a little bit, um, a couple days a week where I can build something work on something I want to work on to keep me interested and motivated.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

That's good advice. So if there's if there's uh one thing that you could advise new knife makers on, just as like a words of wisdom or whatever, uh what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 49:41

Uh I would have to say don't go cheap.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

Um in in your tooling, you know, if you see there's a need that you might need to buy a disender or a horizontal or a surface grinder or a meal, um don't just go buy something to that you think's gonna get you by. Um keep working at it and save up to where you can get something that's gonna work right because I can honestly say where I had started back making knives, I went and bought the basic tool and just cheap. You know, I I went to Harbor Freight um like a lot of people probably did, and uh I noticed that if I would have never spent the money on some of these tools, I could have been further ahead of where I am now versus buying the right tools for the job. Um, you know, not to compromise. And uh I guess the other thing would be is to don't worry about making a mistake. Um just learn how to correct that mistake and don't give up on it and uh continue making knights, whether they sell or not. If you can afford to keep making them, keep making them. Uh somebody out there will buy. There's a lot of people in this world, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Yeah, what's the the adage is uh buy once, qu cry once, right?

SPEAKER_03 51:03

Yeah, yeah, because uh uh there's a lot of things I I have bought and uh I turn around and end up giving it away to somebody. Like there's a lot of tools I bought, I've gave to my brother for woodworking. I'm like, here man, take this, I can't use it. Um or I hide it for my wife, I might stuff it off in a camper or something. Uh you know, that was a bad investment. So yeah, um best thing to do is if, you know, and and honestly, if you it definitely learning how to work your tools, use your tools to the best of your ability. Um a lot of our tools are way further ahead than we are. Um, but learn how to work your tools, but too, knowing that if you find yourself compromising, compromising and saying, Well, I can get this and this. Um, it's like buying a grinder without um variable speed control. Can you grind a blade on it? Sure you can. Um are you gonna be able to produce a good product? Um, it's gonna be safe for you to work. I mean, all that matters, um, especially if you're serious about making knives, you know, it's best to get what you need.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah, that's that's a point with uh variable speed that I I don't know that a lot of people think about. Um so in the military they say slow is smooth and smooth is fast, right? And and sometimes the difference between a very quick and abrupt mistake that you really can't come back from uh and successfully pulling off a build is being able to uh address it slowly, right? And if you're uh if your grinders especially are going 90 to nothing and and you don't have the opportunity to slow down, then you can compound a lot of mistakes that might have been easier to fix. So, like for instance, if I'm doing grip progressions on bevels, and let's go fix blades with a little bit more material to remove than slip joints, um when I'm removing material with a low grit belt, uh, that's fine. But as I start progressing up the up the grits, I'm moving on to like um um aluminum oxide, I will slow that uh grinder down substantially in order to get a finished grind. Uh and I can I can massage out low grit scratches and stuff a lot easier and see what I'm doing uh versus just blowing and going and uh and end up ruining something on the on the last on the last 10% for getting things finished.

SPEAKER_03 53:36

Yeah, you know, the finish up is uh the finish of a knife is everything a knife making. Uh you can do everything great and then get to the finish up and just have poor quality finish up, and you've wasted all that time. So, like you're saying slowing down and um using your machines proper, it's big because you can be doing something an initial start that defects that knife all the way through finished product that you just can't recover from. Um and also what you asked me earlier about if I had any advice. I do have one pretty important thing, you know, and it's something I've done. I know it kind of might sound uh it might sound the best, but start paying attention to when knife makers post a picture of their work. If you see tooling in their shop, try to understand what they're using that tooling from. And I say that from a background of somebody that came from uh a drill press and a 1 by 42, and uh, you know, when we start I started, we was taking burnt Del O diesel oil and we was using old sawmill blades, and it had to be burnt motor oil, and we would quench that steel in it, and it was just right. It had a decent hardness for a blade, but the spring temper you barely had to blew it back, and it worked out great. But coming from that background to realizing how big the knife community is, how many knife makers are out there, I would look at pictures. Yeah, if I seen somebody and I seen their work and I knew they was producing quality work, um and these people I still look at their work and I say, Man, I gotta be like that or be better, you know. Everybody wants to be the best knife maker out there. But I would look in the background of their pictures and I would try to see their tooling and try to try to say, okay, I see what they're doing with that, you know. So really paying attention is um, you know, and I know my shop is nowhere near where I want it to be. I would love to have a grinder for each grit. Um, you know, each grit sandpaper. Uh I don't even want to swap sandpaper belts out, but paying attention to what other knife makers help have has helped me out a lot too.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Yeah, well, thanks for uh disclosing that to everybody. Now we're gonna knife makers.

SPEAKER_05 55:49

I better start.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Knife makers are now going to like hide everything and just like do finished photos. We won't be able to perform espionage.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Yeah, well, there's actually some knife makers, um, and they know what I'm saying. Uh they post a picture, a work in progress. Um there is some things they don't let you see. And uh there's times that I try to take my pictures where it shows some little tools, just some simple little things that make the project go so much easier. Might not understand what it is, but if you see that enough, you're gonna start questioning it. Um, you know, I get a lot of comments because I like to uh post a lot on my story, um, Instagram and Facebook as I'm going. So people can kind of see what I'm doing as every day in the shop. But I sometimes I take these pictures where it shows certain tooling and what I'm doing in the steps and how I'm kind of going about doing it. So I have a lot of knife makers, they'll set they'll message me, you know, people starting out and they'll message me and say, Hey, I appreciate all these pictures. Um, I've learned a good bit from just watching you. I'm like, well, uh, okay, if I can help you, let me know, you know. And they'll ask me questions about certain tools. Um, now there is some things that I I won't share. Um, you know, that's something that somebody needs to invest time and learn. Um, but I'm not the only one like that. And um, there's a lot of guys out there that that do the very same thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yeah, and I think I think there's a difference between there's a difference between building your like your own tooling and things that are uh that are proprietary and then building things that are kind of common knowledge, right? So like rise and fall indicators or you know how how you're pening uh your work or things like that, you know, doing uh like integral liners uh or integral bolsters and and things like that. I I mean th those are all c fairly common, but it's not like there's a a knife maker who's uh who has like some special tool or jig or something like that. They spent a lot of trial and error trying to develop, and uh and you're entitled to that. Like that that is their work, and that that's that's what what they call uh you know uh PI is like proprietary information. So don't expect that every knife maker is just going to give up all all the goods because there are some things that you know that they they strongly invest in, and it's worth it's worth them keeping it to themselves because I mean you know that some somebody else can clone that and start selling it on the market and undercut them or you know, things of of that nature. So it's not it's not necessarily something that you should take offense at, but just realize that you know there is common there's common knowledge and then there's proprietary information, and there is a difference because at the end of the day, we're all trying to run a business too, if you're selling knives to either make a living or to grow your shop and improve your lives.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Yes, but you know, I want to say this too while we're on this subject. Knife making is hard enough. Um you look at the market, you're you're I don't want to say necessarily competing with because the market is so big and it's and there's so many at buyers out there, but um the knife makers that you're going up against, um you have to uh really, really produce stuff. And 90% of the time, if you'll reach out to another knife maker, they'll get you ahead of where you was before you made a phone call or you sent that message most of the time. And while we're on the subject, it's like um penin bolters and hiding pins. That's one thing that I see a lot of people um it it's almost like some people are they it's a magic trick, you know. Um so if y'all don't mind, I'll give it, I want to give a tip on peening bolsters where they can be hit. Um be a tip of the day. So uh it ain't so much the pening process as it is the prep process to get there. I've seen where guys, and and listen, they might do it this way, and it works for them. I can tell you from a guy that went from putting a dr uh oversized drill bit in reverse, reaming a hole and peening pins to trying to figure out how to hide a pin. Um and I've learned is it is the reaming process. Um, some guys they squish them with a vice, some guys beat them with a hammer. Um, I have a claw hammer out there that I use. I have a flat, uh cheap little hammer I bought from Woodcraft. Um it's I think it's four ounces. And it's super light. I'll pin it with that or I'll pee it with a chasing hammer. Uh I'll hit it with any hammer I can get my hands on as long as it ain't a waffle comb hammer. Um so a little tip is don't so much get caught up into all these extra steps. Start looking at what you're doing and try to understand what that knife is doing. Um, one of the biggest issues with people trying to hide pins is they they ring too deep. And when they pin their knife together, whether they break it in after they've pinned it, they've sanded the heads off for before, which they should break it in after, that pivot pin is actually moving on them. Whether it's just a thousandths or whatever it is, that pin is moving on because their hole is so deep on the ring that they're not able to swell that pin into the cavity. Um so a lot of times your pinning process ain't what messed you up. It's how you ringed your hole. You ringed your hole too deep. Just ream it, get a burr, um, a simple um de-burrent bit, uh, one uh one-eighth de-burr and bit that cones down to a one-sixteenth. That's what I use, and it works perfect. Um, just ream it till you get a little burr on it, and then pin that thing together.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Yeah, kind of on that note, I I think it's important, based like based on something that you said, that people uh realize when you when you have a process like like uh hiding pins, uh there there are fundamental mechanisms for how to move metal or manipulate materials in order to get it to do what you want to do, right? And if you will stop and think about the issue uh think about the technique, you can usually deduce how to do things if you think hard enough about it. For instance, like pointing like yeah, the the one issue is is reaming them too deep, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:31

Um the that's a major issue.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

Yeah, I mean the the other issue too is like, so what if you ream everything properly, but you're beating on it until that thing is almost beat to death and your knife locks up, right? Well go ahead. Well, uh you know, like the the reality is is that there are times when you will encounter issues because you're trying to fix a problem or foolproof a process and you end up hurting yourself more than you should. So if you take a step back and just think through the process, it's usually a little bit easier to find the solution.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:08

Yes. And to remember, everything besides that blade and your scale material is malleable. Um you're able to push that material. Um, so if anybody really thinks about what I'm saying, just hiding a pen, you're pushing that material up tight against another material. That goes a long way in the whole knife building process. I mean, just knowing that you're working with a malleable material, there's a lot of problems you can correct. I mean, it from going from a a blade out of square to anything. But um, you know, if there's been times I've peened blades, gotten mad and just peened it so much that trying to break it in, the pen was so hot it almost burned my finger. But then I had to learn how to slack a blade. Um, so I guess from as you're saying, paying attention to what you're doing, understanding what you're working with, but also knowing that there's another step to take to correct an issue that you might have made trying to fix an issue. A lot of times we run into issues when we try to address the issue. Now we got three other issues to address.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Yeah, yeah, diminishing returns. Because like um, like when you when you're doing bolsters, if you will take the step of contouring your bolsters before you even put handle material on, um, you you can uh escape getting dips in your handle material because you know your your metal is going to grind at a different uh speed and and pressure than your uh your handle material is. And if if you if you will simply contour your your bolsters out and then pin your pins, then you can you can do a pretty quick deburring and pop that pin and and swell it out, and you don't have to worry about whether you know a few thousandths down you have a gap, and then as soon as you grind it down, then your pin's exposed again.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:01

Yeah, and you know, everybody has their own process. I I started with shaping my bolsters before I put my handle material in there, and now I will not shape a bolster until my handle material is glued. Um but I have to factor in the fact of hey, I don't want to get into my handle material. Um but two, you there's a time to use a slack belt and there's time not to use a slack belt, you know. Um but I guess in time and what you're making, um, you know, it's a growing experience. You're you're I'm learning something every day, I go out there, but it all goes back down to having the right tools and buying what you need and doing things slow and paying attention.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Yeah, and and understanding your process, right? Because I mean you you could have you could have a hundred knife makers making the same exact pattern with the same exact handle material and and steel and everything, and they're going to do it different ways. And if it's if it doesn't make sense in your mind, like how you process. The process, then you're not going to be able to execute it very well. And the I mean the only way to get around that is a learning experience. So that trial and error, mostly error, right? So like I I I contour my my bolsters before I ever uh I ever put scale material on. Uh but I'm sure that I I can think of probably a half dozen reasons why you would uh you would also not contour your bolsters at all. So I mean there's it's everybody uh everybody has their process and you got to figure out what works for you. And it's it might not be something that is even common practice, but if it gets you to the finish line, you just have to accept that that is that's part of the creative process, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

Without a doubt, yes. Um what works for me might not work for you, you know, or what works for you might not work for me. Um I know there was a time a guy told me um, you know, do this, and I went over and done that. I think I'll I'll never listen to that guy again. And um come to find out he was right. Um here I am doing it the way he did it. He told me a long time ago, but at the time I didn't have the knowledge and the understanding to fully, even though I understood, I did not truly understand his mentality the way he thought about it. Um now I can look at something and say, oh yeah, I I'm fixing over here and I done got all my scales on these knives, and um my bolsters ain't even shaped. So I already know in my mind how many thousands is coming out of the back of that bolster versus to the tip of that bolster. And I've shaped my bolsters right there on the wheel where with my scale material on there, and with before I tried it, I had gapped up my scale material. I was so upset. But the problem wasn't the process, the problem was me not being ready for that step, you know. Um, so that's why I say what works for some might not work for others, but eventually they'll get to a point where what might not have used to work for them is the best way for them to do that now, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

Absolutely. Uh Chris, do you have any questions?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:12

No, I'm just enjoying the conversation. And uh, you know, I I listen to these guys and it really challenges me in thinking about, you know, because I I think we've talked about this. I pretty much make a standard pattern because it's easy and I enjoy it. And I don't really stretch myself, but uh, you know, after listening to Matt and Stanley last week and stuff, I think maybe I need to try some try some different things. But uh I've just been enjoying the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Yeah, knife making is like a marriage, like you have to sometimes mix it up in order to keep the the love alive.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:44

Well, and and and it goes back to what Stanley was saying, and and I think Matt touched on this a little bit too, is you you've got to enjoy, you know. I I remember Stanley saying that, you know, if you don't have a passion, um and this may not be how he said it, but you know, if you if you go to the shop and you're just out there and you don't really want to be in the shop, don't don't be trying to make a knife, you know. And and what Matt was saying is even though he's got his orders, he he has these other projects going on, and he'll try to spend a you know hour or so on those, and those are things that he really wants to make, and I can see that that I can see that as motivation for um for growth, you know, growth in the type of knives you make and and uh just getting better, you know, in general. And so, yeah, I think that's some good advice.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:38

Yeah, and like you just said about if uh you're not feeling too motivated or interested in making knife, there's days that I'll go out to the shop, I'll look at this knife and I'll be like, Ain't no way. Um and I'll find myself saying like uh I just gotta lay. Uh worst time it's like every time I'm uh every time I'm under the gun, here comes this tool and it's perfect. It's everything I wanted right at the time. Uh you never got enough, but so you get it, and then you're like, Well I'm I don't even want to make a knife. So here I am over here scrubbing a machine down, polishing it, and trying to get it suited for my shop because uh I don't want to bring a filthy machine in my shop, it's gonna be cleaned up, you know. So I might find myself out there wiping everything down with WD 40 cleaning ways, and uh you know, there was a time just a few days ago I I didn't want to make a knife, so I broke a uh old Southend lather part and redone it. And uh so there is a time not to make a knife or for a knife maker. Um there's time to take a break, you know, because you you do spend a lot of time in there and you can easily get burnt. Burnt out.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:51

Yeah, something kind of on that note, and it's it's uh I I think that life is about cross-discipline, right? Like you do you do you do things. So I I think this is like you know, you you work in excavation and uh and you work with uh big machinery, right? Well and and and there is a process that you go through when you're operating this machine, certain safety considerations, there's parameters that you have to follow for every job that you're gonna do. And when you do those things correctly, you get the job done on time, in scope, and in within the budget, right? And um when I was uh playing violin when I was uh younger, I I would get burned out because I have my I have lessons sometimes with uh two teachers uh because they you know taught different disciplines. I would be in symphony orchestra, I'd be in chamber orchestra, I would I would have a fairly full schedule for performances. And then when it got down to it, I would get just burned out. Either you're playing the same stuff over and over again, or even trying to learn new stuff was just a pain. And sometimes I would take a summer off. I would just like I wouldn't even touch my fiddle at all. And I found that if I gave it enough time, I would start hearing the little like the like the little whisper, like it was calling me again and saying, hey, like you know, come and play me and let's do some something different. And I it would like revitalize that passion for me. And that's what I try to do with making knives, um, because I, you know, my time management with uh working full time and taking care of uh my family, because we have some medical stuff that uh kind of keeps us in in check when it comes to time balance. Uh I'll find myself if I if I uh if I'm coming out into the shop and I don't know what to do, then I'll just lay off of it for a while. And then when I'm coming back, I'm usually like busting things out and I come back strong. And um it's not that I am disenchanted by making knives, it's that I I had more time or the context is not right for how I'm how like how I'm able to make what I'm making. So sometimes taking a break and stepping away, or in Matt's case, cleaning the shop um is a good way to break it up and keep it interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:10

Yeah, you know, and it's uh I think it's a struggle, especially for uh the younger generation, and I would consider us the younger generation knife makers. Um there's knife makers out there, their kids are grown and they have grandkids. And uh one thing about Chris, uh, he don't know it, but I I respect him for it. And there's another fella, um one of my buddies, uh Hollinger. I find myself at times, I'm thinking, man, I'm in the shop again today. This is the 20th day straight, you know. Um, and I I think, you know, uh here I am at this age, and my wife and I have a young son. It's a struggle of saying, okay, I need to sit this down and have family time. Uh I need to spend time with my family. Because there's uh gonna be a day that I'll have more time if the Lord permits for me to live to be old enough. My son's gonna be grown, he's gonna have his own life, and I can devote more time. So for a young maker, I think that's a real struggle. Um let me say that for a young maker with a family. Um one of the things that like Chris, there's been times I talk to Chris and Chris says, Hey, you know, we got sports and all this coming up, you know, it's probably this month or this month, or I can do this for you or something, you know. And that's one thing that it always daunts in my head. I'll I'll be out there and I I got a window right there where I can see m the house. Um, because my shop's in the backyard, and that's one thing I think, oh man, I could be in there doing this with my family. Well, I guess what I'm saying is even for a customer that's buying a knife, um, they might know that it's a lot of work, but mentally, um, and the time that it takes to get out there and get to where you are building knives. Um, so that's one thing that I I'd have to say that I struggle with at times because I do make it to all my son's sports events and does all these things, but there's also I know there's I need to be spending more time with him because there's coming a day where he's gonna be out of the house, you know. And I'm gonna be out here in this shot with all this time on my hands still making knives when I could have um spent a little more time. It's a struggle.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

Yeah, well, you said earlier time, time is is the most valuable component to its knives. And I don't think a lot of a lot of customers, I don't even think a lot of people, whether it's your like your extended family or friends or things like that, realize um you only have one life, right? I mean, it's a linear progression from birth till death, and you you only have so many, so many hours, uh, so many days, so many years. And that also is with your family. Um, you know, I uh so when my uh my when my daughter was born with a congenital heart defect, right? And I mentioned this on my interview, you know, she she was doing pretty well, but the thing that's always uh stared us in the face as a family is is mortality because I've watched her almost die uh more times than I would like to admit, but it it's a lot. And then when she was in the uh fixing to get out of the hospital, um our my stepson uh died in a motorcycle accident, right? And there is there is something incredibly sobering about um regrets, you know, things that you can't take back and uh time not spent. And one thing that I will not uh I will not sacrifice is the ability to spend time with my family for the sake of anything else. And if you know, if my day job can't support that, I'll find another job. I've done it before. If if knives are something that God calls me to hang up because it's uh distracting me from my family to the point where it's becoming you know it's becoming uh a an addiction or it's becoming a um uh an encumbrance for the way that I feel I need to be raising my family, then I'll give it up. And that's not to say that you know there's ever been a situation, even with all the chaos and tragedy in my life, that I've ever stepped away from knives. But um it is important uh to lay out your time and to value it and to really think um what are you sacrificing and how are you um how are you prioritizing your life? And if that's not with the people that you love, and if that's not you know a good portion for yourself and you know recuperation and rest, then um I feel like it's it's time wasted.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:37

Yes, without without a doubt. You know, it's real important for a man to understand what is valuable in his life. And as you're saying, um you know, um I I I truly feel for you for what you've been through. Um but you said something about regret. You know, regret's something you don't it don't really bother you until you've already regretted it. Um you know, it's like there's a day I was just talking with Stanley about this the other day. My wife came out there and said, Hey, you want to go to the movies? I was like, Yeah, let's go. I'm tired of this shit. I was gonna spend some time with my wife, you know. Um and to me it was funny because you know, she came out there and asked me to let's go do something. So I was game for it. I was working on a knife, I throw the knife up on the counter, and me, I know better. I should have clamped that knife down flat. And you know, we left, went to the movies, and I was thinking, I just abandoned what I was doing and go with my family because that's more important. And I knew what was gonna happen. And the next day I got to that shop and that thing was curled up like a banana, and all I could do is laugh. But I can tell you this, I didn't regret going and spending time with my family. So, you know, um regrets is something that weighs a lot on people. Um, but realizing what's valuable in our life is very important, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:01

Yeah, as a as a maker, like when you when you're gone and you like you hang up your your hat or you pass or whatever, there's always going to be somebody who's going to try to talk to your kin to get your uh your stuff for pennies on the dollar, like right. So it's better to invest your time and energy in things that are that have longevity. And you know, knives and material and things like that are great, uh, but they are that's all ephemeral, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:28

Temporary, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:30

So you know, my son, one thing I realize is uh, which my son's still young, you know. I remember being his age, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I told him, I said, son, you'd be a way better knife maker than me if you got out here and learned. I said, You'd be way ahead. Um, but he's told me there's times that he would he's gonna sell everything and turn it into a barbershop. But you know, I'm I'm okay with that. Uh I do need to label all the McCart out there because if uh you know, if it if he can get the right deal, he can make a lot of money to pay for his barbershop.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:03

But uh, you know, that's life, and um that's stuff that I wanted.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:09

Um I I'm not gonna be the type to expect my son to follow my steps. If if he chooses to do that, that's great. If he chooses not, I'm even just as happy for him because uh I can also say when I was a kid, I never would have thought I'd make knives like I make them today. You know, it was at least in my worry. Um, I want to mention this, you know, my brother, me and my brother did it together, and he was actually really good at making knives, and he was really, really interested in it, where I was interested in it, but not as much as he is. And, you know, I try to get him down there and say, hey, come on, make a knife, but he's not interested in it where he was when he was younger versus where I wasn't as much interested in. So, you know, life's funny. Um, but uh, you know, hopefully whoever comes and buys my stuff when I'm gone, if it gets old, um, my family gets a uh a decent wage out of it and they're happy. That's all that matters to me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:02

Absolutely. So um, Matt, uh, tell us a little bit. I know that you do some uh ministry work and have a show um or you know uh radio show that you do. Can I talk a little bit about that? I mean, I I think that that would be good uh to fill out the rest of this uh interview with, and you can talk a little bit about how you share the word and uh kind of what that looks like.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:24

Okay. Um yeah, I do have a uh a radio ministry. Um it's uh there's a station not too far from me. I go to uh every Sunday. I'm uh I'm on from 9 30 to 10 a.m. I got a 30-minute window there. Um it's FM and uh AM and also you can listen on the internet. Um but um I've recently back in 2012, um most most people before then I kind of lived a little wild, um you know, and uh I ended up going to church and uh I ended up realizing, you know, that I didn't have a Lord and Savior that loved me and died for me. I ended up getting saved back in 2012 and uh went on for about a year and uh I felt like God was calling me to preach. Um and you know, I I never was a book smart person, never read a lot of books, but uh the Bible I can also say that's something that I've read and I I really committed myself to reading and uh it was something I struggle with, you know, um because if anything I do, I'm all hands-on, you know. It's uh all in or not gonna do it all. And I told the Lord, I said, Lord, if this is something you really want me to do, um help show me, you know, make this clear. And uh there was a process and uh, you know, I started um I had a guy I went to church with, a good friend of mine, he's passed away now, and um but he kept inviting me to go to the radio station and I kept telling no, no, no, no. And probably about nine months I'd tell him no, and uh he ended up, he was he was uh he was steadfast and uh he stayed at me and he ended up getting me down there and uh it was probably one of the best things for me. Um I loved every minute of it and uh I ended up preaching there and I said, All right, well Lord, maybe this is where you want me to start, you know, because I was open for anything. It it didn't matter to me. I I I didn't have to have a a great audience or nothing like that. Um I is if I spend my whole life and one soul gets saved, it's worth every bit of it. You know, because the Lord died for me and He forgave me my sins. So just winning one's worth it. Um so I was on the radio with him for about two years and uh I had a call, somebody asked me to come and help out at a church, and I went over there and I filled in there for a good while and they kept asking me to pastor church and I told them, you know, I I didn't know I was young and uh still learning a lot. And uh I ended up pastoring that church for about eight years, yeah, eight years, and uh there came a point where I felt like, you know, the Lord was still with me there. It was time for me to move on, and uh it was weighing on me real heavy to go back to the radio. And my friend had done past away and gone to be with the Lord, and uh I called his wife and told him that I was gonna start his ministry back and what she thought about I asked her, and uh she said she'd be glad to do that. So I started back in the name of Jesus Ministries, which was under Doug Snipes, he originated that ministry, and uh so to this day that's what I do now. Um I go to the radio every Sunday from 9 30 to 10 and I preach the gospel. Um you know, and I've met a lot of people and uh that I don't go around telling somebody that I'm a preacher, you know. They should my life should speak volume versus my mouth. Um But there comes times to where some people will change who they are. You know, I can sit down with somebody and you know their language is totally different than mine. But uh, you know, um I'm not the type of person to bash somebody and you know I would rather get to know 'em and show 'em I care and, you know, then when the Lord gives time to talk to 'em. You know, there's a way about going and being a witness for the Lord. Um so I guess what I'm saying is um there's maybe a lot of people that don't even know I'm a preacher. Um because I don't go and tell 'em. Um a lot of times you people introduce yourself, I'm reveren so-and-so, or this or doctor so-and-so, or whatever, but that's not the case here for me. You know, I don't look at it as that as or as it's a title. Uh look at it as a call and it's a gift from God that He's given to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:01

Well, uh Matt, it was uh really great uh to have you on the podcast and talk about knives, your life and and your relationship with the Lord and everything. Uh so I really I just want to thank you for your time and uh if you can if you can give us the the links to your ministry, your radio station, and everything, we'll post that up along with all of your social media um uh links and everything so that way people can find you and listen in to you on Sunday when you preach.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:33

Yes, sir, most definitely. And I appreciate y'all having me on to thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:37

Yeah, thank you, Matt. This is another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. We thank you guys for listening and sharing your time with us today. Uh just remember that you are loved, and God bless.