SPEAKER_01 0:21

Thank you for listening in again to the Good Old Blades podcast. I am your host, Aaron LeVere, and I am joined by Bill Rodin. Bill, I was pronouncing that name uh correctly, right? It is Roden.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

All right.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Yep, Roden.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Yeah. Um, so I am actually remote in uh Miramar Beach, close to Dustin, Florida, and uh Bill and I wanted to get together and schedule something for us to to talk and get it get him on the uh the podcast right away. So uh Bill, it's really interesting to me um your uh transition from collecting uh to making knives. And like I I want to talk about both facets, like how like what got you into knives uh and and collecting uh and and and then knife making. But what I'm uh I'd really like to know, and what I don't really know a lot about you is your um is you know your zero to uh getting into knife collecting life. So could you give uh me and the listeners a uh a picture of uh where you got started, you know, grew up, family, things like that, and uh and maybe uh career type of things?

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Sure, sure, absolutely. Well, I grew up in Titusville, Pennsylvania. Um, and for those of you who aren't familiar with Titusville, uh Titusville is actually the birthplace of the oil industry. The the first oil well was drilled in Titusville, uh just outside of Titusville in 1859. And of course, then it wasn't, there weren't any automobiles. Uh it was uh used as a uh uh replacement for whale oil. So that's kind of Titusville's beginning, and that's how it got on the map. Um but if you're a knife guy, um, and I'm sure many of you are that are listening, uh Titusville will ring a bell. It was the it was the home of Queen Cutlery. And Queen was there for, I don't know, I guess a hundred years. And uh that was just kind of part of everybody's DNA that was in Titusville. Not that big a company, but we all knew of it. We all knew it was a long-term company. Uh and I had friends whose family was involved with with Queen Cutlery. So that's just kind of in the blood from growing up in Titusville. And of course, now Queen's gone from Titusville, um, but uh Great Eastern Cutlery is there. And and in the uh building, one of the buildings, the lab building of the old uh Universal Cyclops Steel Company, uh, which is like the second place I worked after I got out of high school. So uh kind of uh I never really thought about it. Um I wasn't that in the knives at the time, although of course I always always had a pocket knife, but uh uh that that's kind of maybe where the seed was planted. Um growing up, Titusville is uh northwestern Pennsylvania, about 6,000 people um kind of in the the foothills of the Allegheny Mountains and the Appalachian Mountains, so it's hilly, but it's not mountainous. Um but uh at that time, and I was I was born in the early 50s and grew up, of course, then in the 50s and the 60s, um, spent a lot of time hunting and fishing, and it was the kind of place and and the kind of time in history where you could uh a kid could take a shotgun and put it over his shoulder and and walk out of town and and up into the woods and go squirrel hunting or rabbit hunting or whatever. And uh same with fishing. My mom would take me, uh drop me off in a trout stream at the head of a trout stream in the morning, and I'd work my way down uh basically all day long, and we had uh uh uh a time and place where we would meet, and she'd pick me up and bring me home. So spent a lot of time uh hunting and fishing, and mostly by myself. Um, and and that also kind of fits into the life of a knife maker. Uh you spend a lot of time by yourself, but uh that's kind of the history of growing up. Um got out of high school, um, Aaron and I were just talking, didn't have a uh particularly happy home life. Um there was some turbulation involved there, my my dad with alcohol, and uh uh I was uh happy to get out of town and and get out of Titusville basically the day after graduation. Went to work for the state of Pennsylvania at a at a park, and then I came back to Titusville and went to work for the steel company, which was the which was the big employer there. Uh but uh that was about the time that the steel companies were struggling. Um it would have been the the early 70s, and there was a layoff there. And my dad actually worked at a bank, and uh he was a trust officer at a bank, and I I I used his connections to uh get myself a job as a bank teller, um, and kind of the rest of the story will will be uh where Titusville kind of tied me to knife making and knives. The rest of my history really doesn't. I I I went to work for a bank uh in Mercer, Pennsylvania, not too far away from Titusville. Um got married as a kid. I think I was 19 when I got married. Um I was a bank teller, and um I can remember exactly how much I made. I was I I made $310 a month. So I had my wife and my child and myself and an apartment and a car payment. That was pretty tough going, in spite of the fact that I wore a shirt and tie to work. Uh so I stayed there for not very long and ended up getting an opportunity to go to work for uh Household Finance, which was a personal loan company. Um worked my that worked there for a couple years and and uh worked my way into banking. And I won't go on and on and on about the the finance world, but in 79, and I was so I was 27 years old, I finally moved out of Titusville, finally got out of the small-town atmosphere and got an opportunity to move to Atlanta and work for a company called GE Capital. Um worked there for a couple years, moved over to another company called the Associates, where I spent uh about 20 years, and they had back in those days they had branch offices. Um to move up within the organization you you manage different branch offices, obviously of different sizes and and and and increasing responsibility. So from Atlanta, I I I took my training in Atlanta and in Chicago, where the company was headquartered at the time. My first branch was in Kansas City. So I lived in Kansas City for about a year, um, had the opportunity to take over another office in Baton Rouge, so we moved to Baton Rouge, um, was there for just about a year, a little bit less in the 80s, and basically turned off the lights in the Baton Rouge office. That was one of the uh oil and gas downturns. And of course, Louisiana is very much driven by oil and gas, certainly was then. Um from Baton Rouge, ended up in Orlando, um, ran the office there for several years, um, and eventually um got moved to uh Dallas, which is where I am now. Um side trip um with my career. I I left the associates. Basically, they were they were bought out, so they left me, but uh got to work for another company and moved to Wichita, Kansas. Um then um during that time divorced and remarried. My uh uh my stepkid's father lived in Lincoln, Nebraska, and uh since I'm a sales guy and really can kind of live anywhere, we went ahead and moved to Lincoln to make life better for for the kids and so forth. So uh kind of an interesting life at the Associates. I kind of skipped over it, but uh I made my way into management there and and uh got to do a fair amount of travel, um, spent some time in Europe, spent some time in Mexico and Puerto Rico, um, and and uh uh uh am uh a lifetime gold member of the American Airlines frequent flyer membership. So that was hard-earned uh and uh not worth it. But uh it was a really really interesting experience from uh from uh a high school educated for a high school educated boy from Titusville, Pennsylvania to uh be doing the international travel and and so forth. And all of this was involved in the equipment finance business. I I've done it since I went to work for GE, primarily construction equipment. Um so it's it's a narrow niche, but I've made a living for uh a few decades doing construction equipment financing, basically providing financing on yellow iron. So that was was and still is part of my career. I I don't work for a company I uh today I I broker, so I've got customers who call me and when they want to um acquire something and I arrange the financing for them and I'm able to uh make a little bit of money doing that and appraising. I've got I'm a certified appraiser again for equipment, and uh so I get an appraisal job from time to time. And uh when I'm not doing those two things, I'm I'm out in the shop when it's not 105 degrees in Texas.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah, so if I uh if I want to uh start prospecting for uh and doing gold mining, you're the kind of person to talk to about those big bold razors and everything.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Well, gold miners are a little bit harder to uh to get uh uh uh banks to uh approve, we'll put it that way. That's uh that's a little on the speculative side, although it makes great TV. That's a little on the speculative side. And and you know, it's kind of funny. That I mean the gold mining uh in my whole career from time to time, there'll be a a gold mine opportunity that will present itself. And uh uh as many as there have been over the many years that I've worked, I don't remember a single one that that uh I've ever gotten approved. And the only one I really am aware of that a company I worked for approved ended up being a foreclosure. So there were man camps, and I you know I was in Alaska, and it was just uh it was it was an ugly thing for the financial institution that made the loans. So that's probably why they're careful at those things.

unknown 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

But yes, if you want to go in the construction business or the or the sand and gravel business, uh that's call me. I'm the guy.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Well, that's good. So I mean, what what got you into knives? Uh, you know, for transitioning from this world of finance and uh I mean you're you're in oil and gas, so I I know that there's this there's this portion that touches uh a community of uh workers and things that knives are very utilitarian to, but what what caused you to do it?

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, and it really wasn't it it really wasn't that. I I again maybe I again never thought about it subconsciously the the connection to Queen and and and um GEC. Um I can't even say when I really started collecting knives. I had a lot of knives I had, you know, that I bought on eBay or just you know shiny stuff. Uh not too many gas station knives, although there might be one or two of them, might have been one or two of those mixed in. But uh when I when I can pinpoint when I started collecting knives would have been in like 96, 97. My brother gave me, who still lived in Titusville, gave me a uh a GEC knife. Uh and 96 was the first year, at least that they stamped on on the knives. I think it was 97 when they actually put them out. Um, and I got interested in um GEC, and um they have done a really good job and started out doing a really good job of of kind of catering to the collector community. And um I had a goal at one time to collect all the knives that they made in 1996, and I got within two, I think, at one time. But so I started out uh collecting production knives and particularly GEC knives. Um and uh I don't think I had I think the first custom knife I I bought was from Tom Crying. And and interesting connection to Northwest Arkansas I have, my wife grew up in Northwest Arkansas, and um her brother-in-law, former brother-in-law, I should say, worked for Tom for a period of time, and he was we were together for some family outing, and we got to talking, and he said, you know, he worked for Tom Crine, this famous um custom knife maker. I didn't know who Tom Crine was, no idea. Um so I did some research and looked into it, and and really because this guy worked there, uh I became interested. Not that he and I were particularly close. Um we weren't, but but you know, it just was a connection. So I looked into it and I entered a lottery that Tom had, and I would I don't know what year that would have been. Probably early 2000s, yeah, probably early 2000s, and and won the lottery. And um I just knew that my wife brother-in-law was the reason that I had won the lottery, and and I kind of did a uh wink wink nudge nudge nudge to Tom about uh winning the lottery, and he said, Oh no, that's not how we do things. You actually did win the lottery. So anyway, I bought uh that knife, and uh I still I don't have that knife anymore. I unfortunately sold it, but uh that was my first custom knife. Um collected Tom's knives um because they're close together up there in the northwest Arkansas. I got involved with uh buying some Chris Taylor knives, um, and then various makers, but uh really kind of I I like Tom's fixed blades, and I'm still partial to fixed blades, uh small pocket carry fixed blades. Um and that's I mean that's kind of it. I mean I've I've got uh Luke Swenson knife, I've got uh uh Tim Robertson knife, I've got uh Bob Ullman knife, I've got, you know, I've got knives from different makers, um, and I've kind of weaned down what I've got in my collection now, being my age and semi-retired, but uh it's really kind of it. I once I got into the custom knife, I sold all the GDCs, I sold all the other things that I had, and I really kind of focused on custom knives. Um and and that leads me to how I got into knife making. So that would have been the early 2000s that I I was uh kind of getting started, really getting started, um and slowly becoming totally infatuated with the whole I I have a an addictive personality, and uh that's right now maybe knife collecting maybe the healthiest uh addiction that I've ever had. So uh I remain a knife collector, uh careful knife collector, but I digress. My uh son-in-law, um who lives close to us here, and in fact, we share a shop. Um, my son-in-law was uh very interested in knife making, um, probably because of me. But uh Chris Taylor was having uh a class, um, and this would have been um February of 2020, right before COVID hit. Um, and he did a lottery for two slots to spend a weekend with him and learn how to make a knife. And uh Olivio, my son-in-law, was interested. Um, I really didn't care one way or the other, but I got in the lottery, because again, I collected Chris's knives, and I was just gonna give Olivio the the slot uh if I won and he didn't. Well, we both won. So he and I went up there that weekend uh in February and spent the weekend with Chris Taylor, and we both made a uh a fixed blade knife, and that was my first knife, and I do still have that knife for sure. Um but it was just sort of a a novelty for me. I mean, I was interested in knives and and uh that uh just made made it more interesting. But you know, and maybe some of the people that are listening uh know that I've got essential tremor, which is um and I've had it since I was basically since puberty. Early 20s is when I remember it first becoming a problem. Um, but it's just my handshake. When I do things, my handshake. And uh there are medications that you can take and I take them, but it doesn't solve the problem. So standing at a at a uh at a grinding at a grinder um and holding my hands against the the uh the wheel and the blade, uh I can't hold still. So uh I spent uh uh that weekend I I ended up with a couple of band-aids, to say the least. But uh we made the knife, and I I gotta say, Chris probably made 80% of it for me because of that issue. But I learned and and I became interested. And um fast forward, I mean COVID hit, but fast forward, um, I want to say must have been about July. Uh there was a knife maker. Um I'm not gonna be able to say there's a temple. What's the name of the town just south of Waco? Yeah, it's temple. Anyway, um he was a a knife maker down there who I had who I knew and had bought a couple things from, got, you know, gotten in on lotteries, and uh I had a a few of his things, but followed him on Facebook, and he uh he and his wife unfortunately split up. He had he's a German and he had been in Germany, he's coming back from Germany, and he he posted on Facebook that uh uh uh he was gonna move back to Germany, he's gonna sell his shop, anybody interested in any of the tools he might have, uh so get in touch with him. Well, I got in touch with him right away, and uh I basically uh I don't do forging. Um again, the shaky hands aren't aren't uh helpful and to to do something like that, but uh I bought everything else in a shop and literally got the the heat crete oven, the grinder, uh all of his belts, all of his handle material, all of the steel that he had, um uh everything. Um and uh the bandsaw and most of the stuff, I guess all of that stuff I still have in my shop. I've grown from there. But I bought his whole shop. So and I sold a couple of Tom Crime knives. I had a an alpha, uh a mammoth alpha, which was kind of the cornerstone of me becoming a knife maker, uh, which was interesting because Tom was the first uh custom knife maker that I that I uh was aware of. Uh so I sold that knife, I think, for $3,500 and sold some other knives, and uh and and so selling knives allowed me to buy this whole shop out. And man, we got it was the way to start because we got handle material, we got we got everything from soup to nuts, all the odds and ends that you don't think about when you're going into a to a hobby. We got them. We we put them in boxes, we brought them back. We didn't even know what they were. Um, and there may still be some unopened boxes in my shop, but uh Olivio and I, and mostly Olivio, he's much younger than I am and much more mechanically inclined, uh, got the we had a shop already and we got it wired and we got it set up. Uh and it's uh it's a 30 by 60 metal building, no insulation. So it is hot in the summer and it is cold in the winter. But in between there, and in mornings or evenings, whenever uh we we spend some time in there and and uh are able to kind of get into it. Um and and and as far as getting into it, that's I mean, I it had been months since I'd taken the class from Chris, so there was I thank God I'd taken some pictures. Um took some pictures, kind of refreshed my memory. Um, Chris and I had become friends in the meantime, so I didn't have a problem calling Chris and saying, hey, remind me how we did this, or or you know, give me a hint here. I I can't remember what the steps are to get this completed. And anyway, I got started. Um ruined a bunch of steel trying to to learn how to make knives, and I think everybody that makes knives understands what that what what I'm saying there. I just I burned it up, I I made mistakes I couldn't fix. I've got a wall of shame in my shop where I've got a bunch of uh ruined blades hanging there to remind me uh uh how uh how human I am. But um started making knives, and again I mentioned the essential tremor. Uh I I looked around for jigs, something I could something I could actually grind knives and not get my my knuckles so close to the the grinding um uh belt. And uh Jerry Mowen, local guy and and of course a longtime knife maker, I think he was involved in the guild at the very beginning. Uh Jerry Mowen makes uh a fixture that uh is not inexpensive but is really really uh versatile as far as being able to set angles and set set heights and um and maintain a uh a constant um uh degree of of uh on the bevels on both sides. Um and that was just exactly what I needed to be able to get me started making knives. And so I bought one and met Jerry and he and I again have become friends. But uh that I I I probably couldn't make knives if it wasn't for uh I don't know that particular fixture, but uh I really believe in it. It totally helped me, and I wouldn't even try anything else, I'd spend the money. Uh if anybody is listening here and who's thinking about it, that's that that is helpful. That probably saves you uh a year's worth of experience trying to do it by hand. Now, I I don't I mean there are purists in the knife-making world who who don't believe in using fixtures. Um, and I get it. It it's more of an art when you can hold it and learn to get the muscle memory so that you know how to put that that edge on each one and know where it's gonna be. I I get that, and that is an art. But I can also tell you that very well-known knife makers who I know and whose shops I've been in have those fixtures uh and and have Jerry Moan's fixtures. So, not to be an advertisement for Jerry, but uh for for an old guy getting started in the knife business with with tremors, uh, it was a godsend. I couldn't be doing it without him. So that was what they say, 2020, July of 2020. Um fast forward, I think it was April of 21, when I first when I sold my first knife. Um in the meantime, I had taken a uh a class from from uh Bob Ullman, uh up in Sanger, um, a week-long class, and that guy, uh not as well known as some of the others, but he is an artist. Um I've got a knife of his from the from the Blade Show in uh Texas last year. Uh I don't recall the ice. No, it was it was Blade Show Texas last year, that's just amazing. He did 100%, including the engraving on the bolsters. And it's just a beautiful knife. The guy's just you know one of those guys, uh former Army Ranger, um, has the prettiest, the nicest shop I've ever been in. Um just uh uh and and the class, a week-long class that he gives. He only has two students. Um, I would recommend that to anybody. But that was kind of the second level. I took that in February of 21, and again I sold my first knife in in April of 21. And I can remember, where I rattle on, you don't have to say anything, do you, Aaron? Um I can remember um being in the class with uh uh um uh come to me. Anyway, I'm in the class and we're talking about um how we were doing things, and I and I told him that I had just gotten um New Jersey Steel Baron to do some uh uh water jet cutting of some blanks for me. And and Bob said, Well, how many did you buy? And I said, 75. And he said, 75! And you haven't ever sold a knife? I said, Well, I got plans. So uh uh they kind of teased me that I was uh that it bitten off more than I could chew, but honestly, I I was glad I did. I I I did sell all of those uh over the next year and and uh have bought many more uh in between. And and and that's I mean that's again the purists might scoff at uh at having your your blades water jet cut, but I designed the blades and I had cut the blades out, the originals out on the bandsaw and done it all 100%. And I still do that when I'm working on something custom or if I'm working on a new design, but to stand at a bandsaw and cut out uh a knife profile to me is not particularly artistic, um, not not particularly um where I find the art in making knives. So I don't unless it's something that uh is new, and I've recently done quite a few uh custom jobs and and and tried out some new designs, but unless it's one of those, then I get a water jet cut or just recently um had had some laser cut that I don't have in yet, uh, because it just makes the job easier. You're starting out with a with a blank and and uh not spending all that time. I actually send them all out for heat treat, too. I do have a heat treat oven, I do heat treat some of them, but um I I when I get those cut, those 48 that I have out now, they're headed for for Braddock to be heat treated, and they'll come back to me and then I'll I'll I'll take them from there. So when I get the blanks ready to go, they're already obviously already cut and they're already heat treated, and try to take them all to about 60 HRC, regardless of what the steel is, and uh and go from there. And that to me, that's the art of it, to grinding the bevels to the handlework, um, and and really kind of putting the whole thing together. Um I mentioned that I took classes, and I don't think there's anything more important. Um, Chris Taylor really helped me. Um Bob Ullman really helped me. Um Tim Robertson. I I I took a day and went up there and and watched him make a knife that I ended up buying from him. Um that was uh a great um education for me to do. Tim Tim is a super guy, really helpful, really um he's got a mechanical mind, I guess is the way to put it, or an engineering mind. Um and he's come up with some fixtures to help people make folders and and uh just uh it was a fascinating day. Got there at eight, and I think it was 9:30 in the evening when I finally left. So it was uh a long day, but I've got a beautiful knife as a result, and I and I learned a lot of things. And again, learning from the community, there's just it's it's there it's a shockingly open community uh as far as people sharing information and helping each other. Um it's uh well I can't say it's even really competitive. I mean, I know it is, but uh we're all trying to sell a few knives and to stay uh stay in the knife making uh uh profession, if you will. But uh everybody helps each other, and there are very, very few that hold back. And that is not like the corporate world that I spent my entire life, where it was uh dog eat dog, and uh that we used to say assholes and elbows, just you're you're climbing over the other guy trying to get ahead. Uh that that's that it couldn't be further from that. And that's again me having spent my my entire life in the finance business, including management in the finance business and international finance business, unlikely background for a knife maker, never would have guessed that I'd find myself making knives, was never mechanically inclined, never um, never artistic in any way, but gosh, I just you know I found something I really love, and it's uh it's been good to me. It's it's uh it's it's therapy for me to go in that shop and and grind out some knives and make some for my my friends and new friends that I meet. I just uh I get a lot of joy out of it. Yeah, that's cool. I mean So I'm gonna take a breath, say something.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yeah, I'm I mean I think I think it's cool. You know, specifically, I think um, you know, I'm gonna go back to your point about um purists and uh hand you know, hand grinding and everything like that is you know, in the forge community, you can have like a banana-shaped shank that you've pounded out on an anvil and everything and done absolutely nothing right, and sell it, and people are like, okay, that's you know, authentic blacksmith, whatever, right? But but it seems like in the in the stock removal world, there's a lot of uh very retentive people that think that the only way is to, I don't know, uh you know, everything has to be done. Now, I I really respect sole authorship. Um it is something that when you when when when you can do, but you know how many how many of those really sour pus type of um um opinions have kept people uh from being able to enter uh enter the industry or whatever. And uh and there's tools, you know, if you have a a disability, which I mean arguably essential uh tremors is a disability that really keeps you from doing a lot of things. And now you're making knives. I mean, I've been I've been following you since uh the old COVID era. So I mean when you started posting things online, um, especially when you went to Bob's shop and started posting more, um, you know, I noticed I noticed that there was a turn in the way that you thought about um um execution on certain things. Like you could see it in how you were applying those lessons to your own work. Um and so I've been following you for a while, and you can see as your tooling um gets better, and as the time uh that you you know you learn certain things to get around disability, uh that you know, your the entire dynamic of how you like your like your aesthetic and everything changes. But like uh something that interests me too is you know, for everybody who thinks that knife making is is difficult, add the technical challenge of having to you know contend with you know tremors and things like that, and it just gets exponentially harder. So the fact that you've gone from you know the very the very basics of knife making to uh being able to make a you know a good quality knife, to me, honestly, it should be inspiration to everybody. I mean that those those things to me are profound, especially speaking to Jerry's uh tooling. Um, because I I mean I've I've used his uh his his uh grinding jigs before. Um I'm you know kind of interested in in getting one of his flat platins to do flat grinds on because I mostly do a hollow today.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

I I I I I do have a platen, one of his platens, and it's flat on one side, and there's a 10-inch wheel on the other side, so you can do hollow grinds on it, and it's that is also a game changer, at least it was for Bill. Um, and I know it has been for others. And again, I I go into guys' shops who are who are known guys, internationally known guys, and they have them. So that says something.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah, well, and I you know, uh like Tom Overinder, um, I mean, he's in Arlington, he's uh he's up the road from where I live, and uh he's he's very big on uh if you have the ability to have some type of repeatability in your operations uh that you know to embrace it, right? Um and and and I think that that's probably the difference too between uh some like guy guys who are machinists and things uh and those who I don't know are not, because everybody that I've sp uh spoken to who really is are like they're into uh being machinists and thinking about things mathematically and geometrically uh it in that and and repeatability-wise are all like no, this these are all like perfectly fine to use. Like you use all like nobody nobody says anything about using a rotary platin to make things round, uh, you know, or or certain types of fixtures to grip or drill or mill or things like that. So, I mean, why why is it that much of a deal? So I you know, I think that the the the game is changing when it comes to knife making. And you know, you might find I mean you might find if you get into like the computer side of uh of things that you might be able to buy a small CNC machine and have certain operations handle like that too, if you wanted to go like semi-production, but that's that's something that's a tool for disability.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yeah, I and honestly, I don't see myself doing that. I I mean I see Chris Taylor, Chris Chris is a uh an electrician, and he can bring in um these old machines that uh uh like I think everybody's surface grinder is 50 years old. Um and and he can make those work. He can wire them up and make them work, and he understands how it all works. And and the same with Tim. Um Tim's uh machinist. I mean, he knows how those machines work. Uh got uh uh what are the what are the machines that he got everybody on locked in, the ones that they do the panographs. Yeah, I mean to to take one of those old panographs and figure it out and fix it and then start doing um uh shields with it. I mean, that's just crazy in my mind. I there's no way I could could conceive of that. I'm just an old finance guy, really a salesman, uh nothing more than that. Um my brother was a college professor, well, was a college professor, he's retired now, and I was a salesman. I got you know, I was luckily I got the good looks, so I could be a charming, good-looking guy and go out and sell because he got all the brains. So uh for me to be uh making knives, I'm I'm honestly I'm making fixed blade knives. Don't have any ambition to get, especially after spending time with Tim, to get into um folders uh uh slip joints because I can't do it. My hands shake too much. I mean, I can't do I can't work with those little screws, and I can't work with with that those machines. Um as far as the computer and programming and so forth, I guess I could do it, but I'm old and um uh I I guess I'm uh an old dog that doesn't want to learn any new tricks. Um I I kind of like doing what I do, and there seems to be a relatively decent market for people to buy Bill Roden Blades, uh you know, 50 or 100 or 150 a year, and that's gosh, that's all I want to do. Uh I don't want to I don't want to be famous, I just want to make knives and be able to uh to cover my expenses and and enjoy it and hopefully bring some joy to the people that buy them. That that really when when somebody sh sends me a picture of them cleaning a deer or or whatever, cutting a piece of cake with one of my knives, I I get the biggest charge out of that. So it's kind of fun. It's fun for me, and hopefully it's fun for the people that buy them. Because my knives aren't perfect, they're far from it. Uh but they are handmade knives, there's no doubt about that. And uh and I love making them so you know it's well, I was just gonna say, I I saw recently that you're working on a uh a spike knife.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Uh, have you just decided decided on what you're gonna name it yet?

SPEAKER_02 42:00

No, because I I really don't care if I name it because I really don't want to make another one again. Uh this one, I mean, I started from scratch. The guy, I can't say what the name of the Japanese uh um what's the word I'm looking for? The Japanese uh technique for for uh processing fish. Uh this is the spike is used for the first part of the process, which is instead of clubbing them with a club or a baseball bat to kill them, and I'm talking big fish off offshore swordfish, marlin, that kind of thing. Uh, you take the spike and poke it in their head and basically stick them in the brain with it, and and they're dead right then.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

And they're not flopping, they're not shaking, they're dead. And and then they bleed them, and then they cut their tail and they run a wire up their spine somehow. And uh I don't remember what the fourth step is, but anyway, it's this elaborate process that they go through to supposedly greatly improve, like 100% improve the uh the quality and the flavor of the fish. So I have a uh a guy who I've known for years who asked me to make one of these. He's been using a screwdriver that was like four inches long and couldn't quite take care of a swordfish with that. So I made one of the that the spike's seven inches long. That's it's pretty cool. I mean, it looks like something uh medieval, um or something that the mafia might use as a hitman might use with this just a handle with a long spike. But uh that's fun. I you know, I made a a a grape harvesting knife for uh one of my guys, one of my customers, just which which uh with a real strong hook on it and that was that was hard that was hard in fact um I ended up sending that to uh I I hate being old I dropped names um to one of my buddies who who uh ground it for me because I I had no idea how hard it was to grind an inside curve and I made a tight inside curve so he he struggled with it too so he he ground them for me sent it back to me and then I finished it um and kind of figured out how to do those inside grinds and now I'm making uh a hawkbill uh that's been pretty popular um and that hawkbill is specifically made for my son who's a lineman and they use those hawkbills to strip wire so I made one for him um posted it and other people were interested in it and it's uh it's uh become one of my more popular knives which is pretty neat and that's that's knife making I guess Jeff Mitchell is who I was trying to think of sorry uh who who did that inside grind for me he's been helpful to me we we've never met but we've talked on the phone and we've exchanged uh emails and texts and again that's just kind of part of the community so making specific knives that are different than than uh than uh a plain old standard pocket drop point uh uh which you know are my bread and butter but making those those special custom knives that's I get a big kick out of that too. And honestly you made a comment earlier and I don't know if I'm going over no not yet um you made a comment on one of your earlier uh podcasts I think was after Blade Show Texas about how slow the market is uh and boy that hasn't changed if anything has gotten slower uh I know the secondary market for custom knives is really slow right now because I've tried to sell a few uh and my own business has has slowed down um as far as people doing orders but that's given me the opportunity to uh to exercise creativity and get involved in making that spike and uh making one I called a um uh well I called them on a spike and uh uh one with the the the top down what do you what are they what do they spear whales with a harp a harpoon harpoon okay harpoon is what I called the knife and I made a couple of those and sold them I've made a couple of cleavers and sold them um don't have patterns with the water jet people and stuff like that I just you know people say would you would you ever consider making this so I do and if I was really busy with with making my standard blades I wouldn't have time to do that so I'm kind of enjoying taking a breath and uh although I hope it does pick back up uh again in the fall.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Yeah that's interesting I mean would you say like what does your customer base look like?

SPEAKER_02 47:30

I mean obviously I'm not uh trying to dig too far into your demo demographics or whatever but you know like for somebody who's been in the world of uh collecting and who's been in the world of uh of making now for quite a while uh it do you find that your customer base is something that pulls from those relationships or is it a lot of new people yeah some um it boy it's all over the map at first it was friends and family um I got on Facebook about the you know the time I started selling knives um I had posted a few and and one of my old high school friends um which is what Facebook is good for keeping in touch with guys you haven't seen in 40 years um uh asked me if I'd make him a knife and then I made him a knife and then I made another knife and sold it and then another somebody else called and you know it kind of snowballed but again friends and family to begin with um but then interestingly I I uh my Facebook group grew really fast um went from zero to 1500 people in three months maybe um but now it's it's just sitting there at a at around 1700 so every so often somebody new will come in um it it's friends and family one it it it is some old colleagues and I consider those friends but and then they've word of mouth through word of mouth have have sold some for me to their friends um or introduced their friends to me um I I sell knives it's surprising to me all over the country most I sell in Pennsylvania where I grew up so there are the the friends and family up there um as far as units that's probably where I've sold the most or Texas which is where I live now and have have worked for for a number of years um the the knives I've sold I've sold a lot to people that I that I worked with or were former clients now that you mention it I want to say seat of the pants 30% of the knives that I've sold and part of that is because I've got um one customer actually the one who ordered the spike um has since sold his business but he was a uh used equipment dealer um he bought half a dozen knives uh last Christmas or the Christmas before last uh that I put his logo on and he gave to his good customers and I've got another customer now uh who has done the same thing uh another uh dealer who uh has just ordered 10 um and that's gonna hopefully get me through the hump here or over the hump in the slow the dog days of summer because I've got those 10 knives to make um and he's gonna give them the customers so that's 16 knives right there and then the guys themselves have bought knives uh I've got a client out in North Carolina same thing one of my construction equipment dealers who has bought one of my best customers he's bought maybe four or five knives from me so and that's interesting to me because my knives again are no Tom Cryne knives or no Chris Taylor knives or no certainly not any uh uh Luke Swenson knives but uh they're not uh anything like those knives as far as the perfection and and the the fit and finish that those guys put in or that those guys produce but but I have a lot of customers who've bought one and then they bought another and then they bought you know ended up buying four or five knives from me and that's that's fascinating to me. I like to do a lot with uh with handle material I get a big kick out of that so varied handle material and what I can do with the with burls and and mammoth tooth and you know you name it uh I think that attracts people uh using different colors and different shapes and different different materials I think that attracts people um that's that's my best guess at why those people buy multiple knives I'm glad they do I mean I love them that's that keeps me going and again that's gratifying to me that somebody would think enough of not just buying one knife from the shaky hands guy but to to buy another and then another and then another because be beyond one it's not a novelty they they obviously like the knives so that that kind of tickles me yeah for a guy who's like I said just been doing this for a couple three years.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Yeah well I mean and I I also think like a I've tried to make it a point uh through the podcast to um illustrate the fact that like uh your brand or who who you are is like an essential component of of selling knives and the marketability of your brand right and absolutely and I I think that if people are buying your stuff it's as much because that they're buying it from you as it is that they're buying a a knife product right absolutely the knives that I collect are are from people I know they're from knife makers that I know no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Yeah and I'm sure that's the same way with the people who are buying my knives they're they're buying me as much as they're buying my knives which I totally appreciate and um like I said find kind of shocking but it's fun. It's definitely fun.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Yeah so how do you uh how do you feel about applying your collector's eye to your work and do you find like inside of the collector circles because I know that you're you're friends with uh uh Charlie Brock and uh you guys go out and you guys kind of have your little like parties that you uh collect like you you bring people together to when you're when they're at shows and stuff um like how how does that how does that look with you making knives and still being in the collector circle like are you are are you still paring down your uh your collection or are you just refining it with other blades or kind of like what what does that look like? Yeah I I uh I don't buy as many as I used to um and I've actually sold some to Charlie uh uh when I needed to buy something else or wanted to buy something else or decided to to uh sell a knife and you know buy uh buy steel um but uh that first knife was uh let me put it this way that first knife that I made with Chris Taylor at his at his shop uh in northwest Arkansas was really it was totally my design um didn't copy anything but I gotta say it was heavily influenced by the Tom Crine um what does he call it and Chris Taylor's um uh shit uh anyway Chris Taylor's knives and Tom Crine's knives uh very much influenced by those and not anything like theirs but kind of a homogenation homogenization of those and then putting my own twist on it and that's probably what all my knives are I you know like enough knives have been made and enough designs have been made that there's probably nothing original um but uh yeah like my hawkbill I I drew up my hawkbill I was real excited about it and then it dawned on me I'd seen that design by somebody else and I and I dug and dug and dug and I finally found that it was a a guy in Brazil uh uh Fabio Santos is his name who and his was a folder a hawkbill folder but it has the blade shape isn't just round on top and around on the bottom it has kind of a square top on it um and I wrote to him and said you know man I I copied your knife uh subconsciously but I know I did and before I make it a uh a uh a standard knife in my uh in my repertoire uh I I'd like your permission to do that and he obviously was very happy to do it and I I have three of his knives um sitting in my collection now so yeah collecting and and and making knives certainly uh have blended together and and I appreciate knife makers even more now that I'm making knives I I mean I know how many steps there are you you you know you just you know you you do it it's not three steps to make a fixed blade knife it's I don't know how many thirty um it really adds up and and people don't think about it but it's uh I I appreciate that when I see somebody else's knife and how how clean it is and how well it's the fit and finish on uh on it is I just uh I'm fascinated by knives that people make Jerry Mowen is a is a good example of that the knives that he's made over the years just spectacular workmanship uh Bob's the same well there's so many there's so many uh Bubba Crouch some of those knives that he puts out are uh with with uh Alice's uh uh engraving on them just crazy and and do those things influence me sure they do they sure do yeah I think uh well one thing that's interesting about uh knife making in general is that you know when when you're collecting knives you're like man like three four hundred dollars that's kind of that's kind of high right yeah and and then when you when you start making them you're like man those those three or four hundred dollars is hard earned it really is really I mean you know and I think that's you know when you think about the material that goes into something so like maybe you have you know twenty twenty five dollars after heat treat you know in a single blade and then you have your handle material. So I mean so maybe you have a hundred dollars in it but you know the the thing that you don't get back is your time often oftentimes and that that that does kind of add to the the cost factor.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Your time and your time and and the glue and the gloves and the the light bill uh and the machines don't come cheap and the the belts that you have to replace you know on an ongoing basis and the and the discs for your disc grinders and uh you know belts that break on your saws that you've got to repair it's just it's it's constant and it's uh I'm not complaining but it it's it's uh it's not a real money making business. It's it's uh at least not for me. It's it's the guys that are full-time knife makers I take my hat off to that's that's a tough way to make a living because uh it is the the time it takes to make a knife people just don't see and don't account for. I I totally agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

Yeah well and you know like that's I think that's something I I think it's important to note is uh the when you have the ability to collect knives or to support makers uh sometimes that's a difference between make or break. Um I mean I I know that in in the past with my career that there's been times where it's just like man I would like to be able to sell some knives in order to be able to make some more knives I would like to be able to go to this show but I need to make knives now and sell them. So it's kind of one of those things where there is as much as like as a maker you don't necessarily focus on the selling if you're if you're not concerned about the selling so much then it kind of makes it difficult.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

I mean either that or you just have the alternate income yeah absolutely it's I try to to to keep the knife business uh self-supporting I I try not to just take money out of the family budget to buy uh walrus ivory uh because it's shiny and I I I think it's pretty cool and I'd like to have some I won't say I've never done it but I try not to I try to to keep knife money and and knife expenses um coming out of the same pot and going into the same pot. It is not easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

It is not easy and I I think that's what's difficult uh with me like I'm I'm kind of uh partial to handle material I I do like collecting it um especially really great pieces of you know ancient materials or wood yeah we all do I think and that I have a life I have a lifetime supply of materials in my shop right now and I I I got some in this week but there's a lifetime supply already in there so we're all the same. Yeah well I mean that's that's all I think really interesting. You know I I would normally ask uh uh closer to the the end of the interview um uh what you know makers have as a as you know advice uh for new makers and things like that and I you know at least initially when it comes to uh what you've talked about and how how you got into it um I think that that's to me it's inspirational um because I do think that there's a lot of people who hold themselves back from from getting into nice or other craft hobbies because of some something right whether it is disability or whether it's age or things like that you know um and and when I look at you and also the progression of your quality and everything um I'm really I'm I'm proud of you you know and I I enjoy seeing I enjoy seeing these things. But is there any other types of advice you know any anything that is like a uh zero to getting started in the business that you'd like uh other knife makers to know I don't think so I mean you're gonna nick your fingers and you're gonna nick your knuckles and you're gonna want to keep band aids in the shop but don't be afraid of that I I know you mentioned I uh six months ago or so I got uh tangled up with my disc grinder in the and the table and uh uh changed my fingerprints on a couple of fingers but you know it's just I said some French words and and uh went to see my father-in-law who was a retired doctor and we uh we got me put patched back together uh but I was back in the shop you know within a couple of days uh it's just you tend to get discouraged it isn't easy getting started um uh it it it seems pretty daunting to get those those bevel lines straight and to you know to not over over grind your edges sometimes and I mean and and I still do it but it's just it's just part of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

Just don't get discouraged keep on doing it and you will end up making some pretty doggone nice knives.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

So and and there will be people uh uh in your life and and not in your life who you'll meet who will be interested in your knives um even if you're just making the most basic of knives I I see that and you you can testify to this I go to like Blade Show Texas and uh and I go around to the different booths and I see some beautiful knives um just extraordinary knives for not very much money and then I see knives that are just like those or or no better than those and they're selling for a lot of money um but it's just time and exposure and and keeping at it that that I think uh like in anything else uh you have to do to be successful to to sell knives and and to learn how to make knives and to progress I've got I've come a long way I agree but I've got a long way to go and seeing those guys' knives collecting uh as you mentioned collecting helps me stay humble because I see those knives that are out there that people make that are just incredible to me I just I don't know how they do it um but you know that's a goal one of these days yeah well and I think uh uh that's that's something I've noticed like uh in like pricing uh your work and and selling on uh selling at shows and things like that I mean there's so many different avenues to sell now um that's really hard to compare your work uh to other people uh what I what I what I've found I think is the secret sauce is you just have to keep your head down and uh and do your thing and that's the that's the only thing that you have in knives is yourself um it as a as the maker right and you have to be able to invest in that and to promote it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

I think that's good advice. I think that's good advice do do what you do and and stick to it and and there'll be people that are interested in that. It just like I said it's a matter of time and Exposure. I I haven't been to any I haven't exp I haven't displayed in any uh of the Blade shows. Uh but I have signed up and I am gonna go to uh Blade, Texas next year or have a table. So that'll be interesting. We'll see how that goes. Hopefully I'm one of those guys who sells some of his knives, at least enough to cover the expenses. But it'll be nice. The reason I want to do it be beyond getting the experience and hopefully selling a few knives is I went to Blade, Texas, as you did, and you and I didn't didn't see each other. We didn't meet each other, and it just that drives me crazy. You're not the only one who I really wanted to connect with at Blade, Texas, and didn't, because there are just so many people and so much going on, and uh and and you don't recognize each other when you haven't really met before. So having a table, I think I'll be able to meet more people who I know through Facebook, uh, who I know through being knifemakers and so forth, uh, than I did when I was just kind of walking the floor. So I'm very much looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

Yeah. Yeah, it's uh I I think that all the the the blade-related shows that I've been to, it's just been a a lot of overwhelming. Um and just like everybody kind of has their own agenda as they're as they're going to the shows, and it's hard to to meet up with everybody. But you know, like it's not that way with like Lost Pines Knife show. I'm gonna be going to that. I'm sure it'll be a good show, but it's never been like the same kind of like frantic uh everybody, you know, everybody's kind of crazy and overwhelmed and like overstimulated that it is with Blade Show. Um so but you know, like you're you're you're up in North Lake area, right? I mean, if if uh ever you want to get uh get together for beers or coffee or something like that, I'm only I'm only about 35 minutes away.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

So I mean you're more than welcome to Yeah, there are a lot of a lot of knife guys in the DFW area um that I haven't met. And there are a lot of them, so you're one of them. So yes, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I'm up for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

Well, I mean, I appreciate you uh uh sharing yourself with us and and talking through everything, especially with your disability. Um I I I will say that sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:25

Well, I hope it didn't bore anybody to death.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

Uh yeah, you make you make my job easy. I'm sitting here uh on a beach in paradise, and for me, you're making this like the easiest interview ever, so whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

But it's it's definitely a pleasure to get to know you more uh through this avenue. And you know, I mean, I'm I'm a fan. I'll continue to track your work. And if you ever need anything, uh, you know, I'm just a hop, skip, and a jump down the road.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

So well, I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and get on the podcast, maybe spread the word a little bit more about Dill Road and Blades. That's that's uh much appreciated.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

Yeah, absolutely. And uh we'll we'll put all of your details uh to social media inside of the show notes so people can reach out and talk to you and uh get to know you more in your work um beyond this conversation. But I hope that in some way, shape, or form people can uh reach out and maybe buy something from you because uh I again I do uh appreciate the the effort that you put into your work and you're a real cool guy, and uh it's been a pleasure to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades podcast. Remember that you are loved, and God bless.