SPEAKER_02 0:22

Thank you for listening in again to the Good Old Boys Podcast. I am your host, Aaron Levere, and I am joined by Journeyman Smith Brad Danson. Something that's interested me about uh Brad and his work uh as he's introduced into the uh knife scene holistically is his his penchant for very clean work, um, his his production of slip joint pocket knives and especially uh the work that he does in tooling. So uh Brad, it's a pleasure to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Yeah, appreciate it, Aaron. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

So uh can you give me a little bit of experience um with what you do for a living outside of knives, the you know, family things, hobbies, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, sure. So I'm uh CPA, that's my day job. I'm an accountant, and uh live in Germantown, Wisconsin, and have two boys and a wife. My wife's a teacher, and I have a four-year-old and a 13-year-old boy that I try to get in the shop as much as I can with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

That is a fairly wide range for uh children. Um it sure is. Do you uh do you find uh issues uh parenting those uh different age ranges?

SPEAKER_00 1:33

You know, when I had the first one with we I wasn't that young, I was probably 28 or so, and uh life was happening really fast, so you know I didn't get to appreciate all the things that I do now eight years late, you know, much later on in life with uh with a young boy. It's uh it's been a good gap. And the older one helps raise the younger one, so it works out pretty well for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah. Well, I'm one of eight children, so I know all about raising the youngins. I don't think that my mom would have survived very long if it wasn't for us older kids because the uh the the younger ones were pretty rowdy.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, I have one of those.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

So um hobbies, uh otherwise, like outside of knives. I I noticed that you like like some hunting and fishing. Can you uh talk a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, I like uh hunting, bow hunting, traditional bow hunting, um hunt with uh traditional bow. Used to make them. Um do some fishing as well, like jet skiing, like car stuff. I basically do anything other than like traditional sports, I guess, is what I really like.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah, it's pretty cool. Uh favorite fish being up there in Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I love catching those uh lake trout out on Lake Michigan. I mean, they're just it's such a fun day to go out there. That's probably my favorite thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

They get pretty big up there, don't they?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

They do, yeah. It's awesome. You charter a boat, six guys go out there, and you know, for the cost of the charter, you basically bring that in fish home. So it's it's pretty good if you have a good day.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yeah, I'm I'm kind of jealous now. I don't think I've ever seen any of your catches or anything like that, but um, I I Pennsylvania, uh where I grew up, uh their state fish is the brook trout, and trout fishing and you know, fly fishing and whatnot is uh pretty popular up there. So I I grew up uh fishing all the time, and especially for trout. And I love the taste, I love the uh the way that they respond on the line. And so um I've never actually been lake trout fishing, though. That intrigues me.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, it's fun. Come up, we'll do it.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Uh done. Let me uh convince my wife to let's uh we'll we'll drive up there sometime and then we'll go fishing, okay?

SPEAKER_00 3:48

All right.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

So uh what got you into knives?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Uh so I guess what uh it's really what got me into craftsmanship. So like when I was a young kid, my dad was a tradesman. I grew up in a blue-collar community, and you know, we would go to the job, I would work with him on job sites, and and I'd be on job sites and I would hear stuff like, oh, wait, you see the cabinets in this place, you know, so-and-so is making these cabinets or this trim work, and uh it's gonna be really nice because this person made it. So I all the success stories I heard growing up were of craftsmen. So I would hear that stuff and I would think, man, I want to be a good craftsman. You know, I I want people to want my work. And from an early age, my grandpa had a wood shop, and he was retired for like most of my life that I know. And I would spend a lot of time with him in that in that wood shop. And he was doing woodworking, he taught me a lot of things, and and you know, that wood shop is still probably like one of my favorite places in the world to be, is in that shop. And uh, so that's what I did. I grew up being a woodworker, I went to college. I as soon as I got my own place, that's the first thing I bought table saw, bandsaw, all the tools that you need to be a woodworker, and made all the stuff that a young guy would need, you know, in a new house. So I made like all the furniture in the house, and we're always making stuff. And then since I hunted, my cousin gave me a bear uh longbow, fiberglass laminated longbow hunts. And this thing was awesome, right? So I had it on display in my house, and I would look at this all the time. And um one day I was looking at it and thinking, man, I could almost make that. You know, I have the equipment outside to make thin laminations, and I could taper them down. So next thing you know, I tried to make that bow. I was trying to figure out how to make that bow, and I made it, and then I went down a deep rabbit hole of traditional archery. So I made uh probably a hundred plus bows and all kinds, long bows, recurves, and um and I and I was of all the things I made in life, I was probab I probably did that the best, the bows. And when I was at um archery shows, uh there were knife makers there. And sooner or later that bug bit me, and that was probably 10 or so years ago, and uh since then I you know I've been making knives. And of all that time that I spent in the shop, I've probably spent half more of the time making my own tooling, and I found that just to be just as rewarding. So, you know, all the things that you need heat treat ovens, forges, uh, hydraulic presses, grinders, uh file guns, just you know, there's endless amounts of things that you can make. And um, and that's been a lot of fun as well. And a few years ago I started getting to slip joints, and I have found that that has been you know the most rewarding, challenging, fun type of knife to make, and that's probab that's what I make mostly now.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yeah. Uh what so uh transitioning from uh just getting into uh knife making to going through the ABS journey, like what what's what started you on that path?

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Well, um I used to be on a website, Trad Gang, and there was a bow-making forum, which I was always on, and there's a knife making forum. And the guys that were on the knife making forum were like Lynn Ray, Carl Anderson, they were ABS guys, and I would see their forged knives. So um that's where I wanted to make. And I I so the first, you know, when we got a knife making, we bought a forge. It was like this little horseshoe forge. And me and my buddy Doug Melvin, I remember one weekend, we forged, we forged probably 30 or 40 knives. I mean, it was 30 or 40 of the junkiest knives you've probably ever seen in your life. Uh, but we did it, and uh we then started to focus a little bit more on quality versus quantity, but um forging knives was I thought the way you know that you did it because I saw the Lynn and and Carl's that that's what they did. And um I I made knives in my shop for a few years and struggled with a lot of the things that I was trying to do. And then one weekend I went to American Bladesmith Society Hammer, and I learned more in that one weekend than I did of all the years screwing around in my shop. And I think probably because I spent a couple years in my shop trying to figure it out and failing at certain tasks or or and maybe some successes at certain tasks and then seeing a different way to do it, it just clicked for me. And I came home from that hammer in, and then I started to make you know decent knives at that point, and um, and that really progressed me through it. That's how uh that's how I got into the American Blazeman Society.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So um if you can describe for us, because I'm I'm also interested because I'm I I'm thinking that that's really like something that I want to make my next challenge is getting into the ABS. Uh, can you talk to us a little bit about like the the process of joining the ABS and what you have to do for your uh uh Journeyman's uh Journeyman Smith certification and everything?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, definitely. So I mean joining is easy, you just sign up, and I think when you what I my recommendation is sign up and find somebody in your area, right? Reach out to them and introduce yourself. This this is a group of people that will really help you out. You know, they'll there's no not a lot of secrets that they keep, right? They'll they'll show you how they do things, and a lot of them will have you over in the shop if you're in the area, and they're just nice people. Um for the journeyman smith test. I went through this with my buddy Thad Steger, and he and I made bows together back in the day, and we started getting knife making at the same time. We live he lives in Pennsylvania and I'm in Wisconsin, so we're half half a world apart here, but um we're good friends and we went through that process together. So the process is you have to be in the ABS, I think, for a certain amount of time, let's say a couple years, I don't know the exact rule, and then you have to make a performance test knife. And a performance test knife is a knife that's 15 inches uh maximum, five-inch handle maximum, and it has to do a few performance tests, it has to um slice a free-hanging rope uh that's not attached to the bottom, so slice off the bottom of that rope, chop through a couple two by fours, and then it still has a shaved hair, so that tests you know your heat, your heat treat on the edge, and um and then you have to bend it 90 degrees without it breaking, which is also a test of differential heat treat. And after you pass the performance test, then you're able to put five clean knives in front of uh Master Smith judges. I think seven judges come through and they pass or fail your knives. And if you get a majority passed, you make Dirtyman Smith test.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

So uh that that's it intriguing. Um, so what what qualities do you have to look for on your performance knife uh specifically to meet like to tick all those boxes? Um I I know that like differential heat treat and everything, but so you have to do like a that 90 degree bend. Is that something that you're tempering back the uh the spine and uh at the Ricasso area to do, or are you just um is is that specific to how you're actually quenching the blade?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

You could probably do it either way, and I know a lot of guys uh will just heat treat the edge uh by quenching only the edge. Uh I hardened my entire blades and then I put the edge in water and I glued the back, you know, three or four times. The 90-degree bend test appears to be the most difficult and stressful test, and it is kind of you know you're anxious going through it, but it's actually probably the I mean it's not that hard is uh to get that. You need a thin knife, thin knife will bend, right? And you need a soft back, and that's easy to do as well by blue in the back. So that part isn't too difficult. So in the performance test knife really isn't that difficult, you know. If you're a knife, if you've been making making knives for a while, the the five clean knives is is you know, by far, I would say, more difficult, challenging, and time consuming. Um, to and it's and it's not really a battle against you know, it's not that you can't do it. Most knife makers that I know can make five a clean knife, and they probably make five clean knives, right? But once you start making them, it becomes like a battle against yourself. You know, if you it you make a knife and there's a small flaw on it, and it's like, God, is this gonna fail me or not? So should and then you make another one and you keep making them and making them. So I end up making uh nine knives. It's I I worked on it for a couple years. We were initially gonna test during the year of COVID, and that got canceled. So at that point I had six clean knives, and over the next year I made a few more and took only my best ones.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Um so I'm trying to think here. Um what when it comes to when it comes to the actual process of making the knives, um, do you feel like a a knife maker should have all the forging equipment inside of their own shop? Or do you think it's something that they can accomplish by um like utilizing hamrons or buddy shops or things like that? Like how much like what's the what's the level of um involvement that you have to have with forging blades continuously and in as your shop focus in order to get to the place where you can actually get your Journeyman Smith um certification?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

I I don't think the foraging process is that you know, of all the things that you have to do to make those five blades, I that's an important step, obviously, but you could do that at buddy shops, you could do that at hammer ends, you could do that at um, you know, you don't you don't have to have all that equipment to do it. Most of the time is spent at the bench, you know, it's it's the fit and finish. And that's what the the master smiths are really looking for on the knives. They want to see clean knives, symmetrical, um you know, nice flowing lines, uh no minimal mistakes, right? No, no knife's gonna be perfect, but minimal mistakes and um that time is spent at the bench.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Yeah. Well, I I think that's um that is one similarity with getting into the guild, um, where I think that they really are focused towards that last 10%. Um and what I mean, that really is kind of honestly the difference between lipstick on a pig and uh and really uh expressing your craft as that last the uh how far you're willing to go to get that good enough state. Right. Um and I think that's one thing that we really focus on. Um I've done some uh inspection testing for the guild uh for other makers. And uh honestly, so I did it at Texas this year and I I saw some really impressive work. Um it's crazy. You know, because you don't think um we we don't have the performance test component and there's not as much uh one-on-one mentorship through the the guild inspection process, which is something that um maybe they could rethink as an organization. That's like how involved you are with um um getting good makers acclimated uh to the the inspection rigors. Um but man, there was there was not one blade that came by my table uh that did not just look phenomenal. I'm like, man, like uh I'm glad you guys didn't see my inspection knives. Like not saying that they were not saying that there was anything wrong with them, uh, but I noticed like everything and I was like, I I just don't know. Um you know, like maybe you see some maybe some uh just very slight difference between your um the symmetry of your grind lines or whatever at the at the at your uh sharpening choil or whatever, right? It's like uh one one scratch on a bolster that just showed up when you put it in a sheath and you know you should have uh put it in a uh a pouch or something. So I always I always get really uh self-conscious about those things because you know when you're having somebody else inspect your work, uh uh it comes down to like, well, could could I have done something different to make it better? And I think that's uh where I spend a lot of my time on the bench is just wondering like how can I push this just a little bit further to make it extraordinary versus um passable, is what I feel.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Yeah, and it helps your game to see those other knives, and and uh it's it's hard to get good feedback too sometimes, you know. So, and I tell you what, that helped me going through it with Thaddeus because we gave each other honest feedback on of what we could see. We never saw our knives in person, and we and it pushed us along, you know. As I could see he was progressing, it forced me to get in the shop and and do the work and do better work. And I'll tell you a good story about this. So we we were making you know all of our knives, and we made a bunch of them in let's say March 2021, we were done. You know, we had he had a set of eight or nine, and I had a set of eight or something like that. And we had plenty, we were good. We had enough knives such that if we dropped one, we could replace it, and they were all clean. And uh it was like we were relieved, you know, it's over. Now we just have to go to the the test. And uh he said, All right, let's make one more. I'm like, Oh, if daddy's on make one more. I mean, we're done, let's just move on. He said, Listen, let me draw a knife, and you have to make it look like the drawing, and you do the same for me. And what he was doing is trying to push me out of comfort zone to make something different. Because if you looked at my knives, you look like not a lot of knife makers' knives, we we tend to make similar designs. So I drew him um a Brad Janssen fighter knife, you know, real long clip, sleek, smooth handle, and he drew me a Bowie knife that he would make a really short clip, big belly, uh more of an aggressive looking handle. And we made those knives. So we show up at Blade, you know, the night before the test, and this is the first time that we're seeing each other's knives in person. And Thaddeus unzips his suitcase, and he has 10 clean, I mean he has two sets of journeyman's knives. They with both pads are perfectly clean. And we're inspecting the final knife that we made, and we found just a very insignificant fall on on one on that one that I designed. And I said, Oh Thaddeus, we've worked so hard on this. Don't even put it in. You know, I said, Listen, you have all these knives, these are all slam dunks, you know, and and this one probably is too, but why take the risk? And he said, No, I'm putting it in. We went through this together, I'm putting that knife in. I don't even care if it fails for this, which I don't think it will, but I'm putting it in. And um, he ended up winning the Joe Keisler Award for best knife presented with that knife. And and I was so happy because there's he put in so much work on those knives, and he had two clean sets of knives. I mean, I doubt anyone else had that. So he got a seven out of seven pass in the in the award. So it was a great ending to our our story.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah, that's great. And it was it was uh 2021 in Atlanta, right? Yes. Do you uh do you know does do they do the inspections at the blade show in Texas as well? Um I I thought that they they might have done done them, but I can't remember exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

I think they started it that year, and then I believe this year they're also going to test in Ohio at the uh at the the blade show or the hammer in there that weekend.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

So they're opening up a few other options.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, that'll be interesting. I um actually funny enough, the uh the person that preceded you in uh in interviews was uh Lynn Ray. And we were talking a little bit more about their uh um so by the time that this airs, it'll be uh this last Saturday. Uh but it's it's this Saturday, the 17th, that we're that they were recording this uh that they're going to or it'll be the 17th of this weekend um where they're uh actually re reopening the um a museum in Arkansas to exhibit the a new buoy knife uh exhibit list. So it's basically um uh showcasing Arkansas uh knife makers and and their contribution towards like uh the buoy um aesthetic and everything. So I think that'll be interesting. And I've always really I've always really been fascinated with um uh bladesmithing because man, I there's a lot of things that you can do with a big chunk of steel um and stock removal.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Uh but drawing out and using um materials um in in blacksmithing and being able to do that in bladesmithing has always been interesting because there's lots of things that you just cannot do functionally in stock removal without um without milling or whatever. I mean, um uh Steve Johnson has an example of a fully integral big bear fighter and it's just like a ton of mill work to try to knock everything down and build those um uh the subhilt and everything for it. And uh I've always been really fascinated with the the capabilities that are associated with bladesmithing over stock removal. So um uh what do you feel like um uh your trajectory is for your master smith? Are you currently working on um your blades for that or have any particular ideas on how you're going to uh address that?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

I I hope I get the initiative to to start it for real. Um I haven't gained it yet. I haven't actually made a forged blade with my JS stamp on it since I got back. I started working on slip joints because I wanted to work on slip joints. Joints before that, and I was so focused on getting those done. I came back and I started making folding knives. So um I have made my Mastersmith performance test knife already, and that's ready to go. Um and uh I forged a uh buoy knife uh a fighter for a you know I don't know if it's gonna make the cut or not, but I've kind of started, but I just I don't have the initiative right now to do it, and I and I hope I get that one of these days, and maybe if Thaddeus starts, it'll push me or push me to it.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Yeah, well you you have to do that, right? I mean I would have to then.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

So what is uh I I know specifically that the Quillian dagger is in the uh presentation set, but what are the other um what are the other requirements uh for your other blades that you have to have done?

SPEAKER_00 22:53

See still have to have five blades. Uh the quillilian dagger has to be Damascus on a pat with a pattern. Um I two of the blades could be folding knives if they have Damascus blades. Um and the other ones I think just have to be clean knives. I mean, I I don't know all the rules offhand, but I really I don't even think some of the other knives have have to be Damascus. But I've never seen a set, or most sets of you know, are all all Damascus and all patterns, pattern Damascus. So it's the best of the best. I mean, you can't skimp on anything on that. And you know, the the year that I passed JS, there was one Mastersmith that made it that year, Jordan. He's I think he's 29 years old at that time. His knives were so clean. I just look at him and I think, God, I'm just so far away from that at this stage. I mean, he had knives that I'd pick up, and I know there's three pieces to the guard, but you could not tell if that was the same piece or not. You know, it was just flawless. And his dagger was absolutely outstanding. It's probably one of the nicest knives I've ever held. I mean, it's beautiful. So you have to you have to bring your best of the best to get through.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Yeah. Uh that that makes sense. Um yeah, I don't know. I I you know it's it's one of the things like I mean, I I really do wish that the guild was more like that in some ways. Um, I I'm not gonna say it was easy to get in. But after after I spent what five years making knives um and and really pushing myself, um, I didn't feel like um it was on obtaining, right? Uh to to be able to at least be inspected for the guild. Um but you know, lots of encouragement and lots of advice on uh from the probationary phase uh to the uh voting member phase. But um I I don't know if it mirrors the same exact sentiment of the ABS in that um you know you you have to be good to pass your journey journeyman smith. Um and I would say that uh that expectation on quality of work is analogous to what we expect in the guild. Um but to go to a Master Smith, um I man, I I I've seen some Mastersmith work that was submitted for the guild, and it's one of those uh times where it it really just boggles your mind with how the fit and finish um is and how intrinsic that is to the entire build process. Like I don't yeah, I I don't really see a lot of examples of Mastersmith preparation or whatever where you can take a um you know a a knife and shine it into a Mastersmith blade. Whereas I think that if you spent enough time and dedication on uh on your your blades for Journeyman Smith, that maybe you could turn something that is not as um maybe well thought out in the beginning, uh and you can craft it into a blade that makes uh journeyman smith, but there's really no there's really no room for error throughout the entire process for Master Smith. And I I think that I'm I mean I'm not I I I really don't mean in saying that to marginalize the uh qualifications for any uh for the for the tiers of uh but it's just it seems like uh it is a lot of effort for Mastersmith. And when you can put that MS on your blade, you have earned it wholly and like to a highest level of satisfaction. Um and I I don't really know necessarily if I'm being uh like quasi-critical of how how we do things in the guild that I I don't really necessarily feel that same way.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah. Yeah, it's uh it'd be an unbelievable personal accomplishment that you know it'd be great to do.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So yeah. And I I think that's probably what interests me in the next leg of my knife journey is I I feel like I spent quite a lot of time focusing on making sure that my knives were um uh good for guild inspection. But I really do think that I I would be interested in in joining that um the fanaticism of um fit and finish and just being able to uh produce a good blade that the ABS demands, um, and being able to have an an MS stamp and as a a lofty goal, I think. You know, I mean I'm more I'm seven years into knife making. Um I make a pr a pretty decent blade. Um I think that the next progression in that is to be able to surround myself with uh mentors and other uh people that are really pushing that uh personal envelope and to be able to see how far I can get in that myself. Um I think that would be a really great challenge. So I appreciate you uh pro providing some insight because I you know there's lots of knife makers, I think, out there that listen to the podcast that are looking for direction, especially as we kind of see this economic slump um where selling selling knives becomes more complex. Um it's like, well, if um if I'm going to make a knife uh and selling is so difficult, how do I make a knife that just is an expression of myself versus one that's marketable? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Uh so when it comes to slip joints and everything, um, I've seen your work and it's it's great. Um what uh what are your favorite uh uh patterns to make and what specifically about slip joints do you find intriguing or um irritating?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Yeah, so they're you know slip joints are incredibly simple yet incredibly complex. Um it is odd that so few pieces can sometimes go together so easily and and sometimes just it's just not gonna work. My favorite pattern, um I really like the gents trapper pattern. It's uh especially if you make it with real thin scales, rounded, just a very small knife. Um and I like that trapper blade, but I rarely make, I don't think I've ever made two of the same slip joints. I I have a hard time making the same knife over and over. So the great thing about slip joints, there's so many patterns out there, right? And when I first started, I looked at a barlow and I thought, I ever want to make a barlow. And I made, you know, I made a barlow this past year. I love that thing. I want to make another one, right? So a doctor's knife. Um that's another one I want to make. Um improved muskrat. I have one on my bench now. I've been it's been there for a year. I still have to finish that. So there's just endless patterns. And this the slip joint community, the folding knife community, shares a lot of patterns with each other, right? We help each other out, and I got a lot of my patterns from um from friends, right? Other slip joint makers. They freely give them. And I think that's really cool. That's it's unlike the modern knife, I think, community, right? The it's a little different. It's not it's not wrong to make a a pattern that's been given to the world to make.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah, I I think it's probably uh the most challenging component that a lot of people uh don't think about if they are just um collecting slip joints is the uh a flush in three positions and what that actually takes to accomplish that. Because even even if you're uh pulling your fingernail over the the spray, if it's just a tiny bit like tiny bit off, it's not right. I know.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Um it's only like a half foul.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Yeah. And well, and if you think about uh traditional cam tang uh pocket knives, you only had to worry really about uh whether it was flush in the open and close position. And you have that third one, and then anything you do to the kick can sometimes affect its uh its operation in the half. And it's like the yeah, I think that the the geometrics of of silk joints has always interested me. Um because I mean what even in liner locks, like you think about like from a g geometry perspective, the most important facet of the mechanism is is the lockup and detent. Um you know, you could kind of tune around things, but uh if the lockup is is not right, then it could lock up too quickly or too slowly, or it could get um uh uh lockup at that area and then a detent to make sure everything's uh you know stays closed the way they should. But um slip joints are just uh kind of an enigma on how to get them right and how that perception of what right is has changed over time.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Yeah, and that's my help starting with a good pattern, you know, because if you draw them out yourself, you you can make a functional knife, but it won't have all the fine-tuning that a good pattern would have. And you can get a good pattern from an another knife, you know, a junk knife, whatever, um, take it apart, and you know, the the tang pattern is really important. So I use a lot of the same tang patterns because a lot of the knives I make are about the same size, you know, so I can utilize that tang pattern um to draw out a new knife, and that really helps in the process.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yeah. I wish um I wish there was some uh better establishment on uh what kind of uh patterns are good starter patterns, because I I feel like uh the Zulu uh Tony Bo Zulu spear is a really good starter pattern. Um and uh because it kind of pushes uh it pushes you to um be able to apply draw swedges, um, you know, if it looks right. Um the the draw swedge is uh yeah can make or break the way that the spear um tip actually looks. Um the and the tang geometry is uh probably one of the most straightforward ones. So like I I I learned on a few trappers and things like that first that were just uh uh described from old patterns, uh like actual you know functional knives. And then when I got into Zulu spear, I was like, man, I wish I would have just started with that because it seems like everything makes sense. And it's it's not like it's it's um hard to mess up the the geometry or anything, but I think that it's uh probably one of the most straightforward patterns that I've ever experienced using.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Yeah, I agree, and that's an awesome knife.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah, it looks it looks good. And well the good thing about it is um it's it's uh it's good either as a um a shadow pattern or as a bear bolster. Um although I I do not think I have seen one example of a cap and bolster Zulu spear, just because I I think it's probably because Tony um mostly produced it as a bear bolster at most with like flute fluted bolsters, but um I've never never seen a cap and bolster, but it would be interesting to see that.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen that either.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah. So um I you know, tooling I I know is an important part of your makeup and everything. And I, you know, I'll be honest with you. I I think I became most aware of your work through your tooling uh as opposed to your knives. But I I've been following you for a while. But the things that have intrigued me the most is when you started producing uh Stiddies um for um pocket knives specifically. What got you into that? And um and I mean I I think that's the first question. It's like what what really got you into making stitties of all things as tooling?

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yeah, I don't know exactly how I even came across a study. I probably saw on a forum or something, or maybe an old video, um, but it's just caught my eye, you know, because you know, first of all, they're just cool looking. A stitty is basically a mini anvil that you you know use when you're making a knife on the bench. And you know, we're talking about something that's like three inches tall, three and a half inches wide, inch and a half deep, something like that. So it's small. So I have the cool factor, and they're very useful. Um, I would find myself when I was peeing together knives, I used to have a piece of railroad track on my bench, and I don't know what it weighed, let's say 20 pounds, and it was hard to move around all the time. It was always in my way. And it was nice to be able to use that rather than walk over to my anvil, which I'm you know, at that point I'm probably like kneeling on the floor, right, trying to peep team together an amp uh a slip joint, or even using like a bench vise. A lot of bench vises have a little flat spot on the back, but that's awkward too because the vise is in your way. So it's hard for one to use, and I also want to make one so they look cool. So I uh there's not a lot of history out there on them. And we were talking before about you know finding some history on it. I can't really find much. If you search for cutler steady on Google, you'll find some really good photos of them. Um, if you want to see one used way back in the day, go to YouTube and search for Pen Knife Cutler. And what you'll see is a 30-plus-year-old video of uh Stan Shaw assembling a pen knife in Sheffield, and he's constantly going back to that uh sticky on his bench, and he's got in the sticky that you'll see in that video, he's got various holes in there, so he can punch a pin through the knife handle out the other side, and then clip it, and then he's using it for peening and all kinds of various tasks. It's nice to have it right there, and that's what's convenient about it. And you also notice that thing is just beat to heck, right? I mean, it's probably not even a hardened piece of steel, it's just so beat up. Um, but you can see them used back in the day in in Sheffield, and I don't know if there's too many, I don't know if anybody that really makes them any anymore. So I started making my own, and um I have them around here. I I use them all the time. I I do not attach mine to the bench, I keep them floating so I can take them off and on when I need it.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yeah, I um I I don't have one of your uh traditional stiffdy versions. I have your uh peening anvil. Yeah. Um, which uh I I I think that I when I uh bought John's shop out, he had a few um anvils, like uh stities that looked like cutler stitties that were made by somebody, um like uh milled out from uh old like like small anvils that are probably not hardened either. Um but I um to get your hands on uh one of those traditional style stitties is actually pretty hard. Uh what made you decide to go to the uh cylindrical uh peening uh anvil versus continuing to manufacture these uh uh these anvils or the like the traditional sticky?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah, so after I was making the stities, the traditional stitties, which is a surface ground flat top, and I was peening together the slip joints on there, I found myself still going back to that big railroad track because it had a nice uh natural railroad track has a crown on it. And the crown mitigates the opportunity that you're gonna ding your handle material when you're peening that together. Um, and therefore, you know, that's what I used, and I still want to get rid of that thing because it's always in my way. So I had some uh 4140 round stock, and I thought maybe I could just tap that in the bottom, chuck it up in my hand drill, and go to the grinder and make a dome, and I'll harden that and I'll just use that on the bench, and it'll be easy to move, you know, it's only a couple pounds. So that's how I got started with that. Um, or may I could have even seen it somewhere, I'm not sure, but I don't know if anyone else makes those. But it's but it's a really simple tool and it's very useful. I use them on every slip joint I have because it's got that uh that crown top that doesn't get in the, you know, just it's useful for not getting in the way. And uh so I started making those. And I use both of them on every slip joint. I use the stiddy and the in the peanut bow.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Yeah, well, sometime if you get into the mood to to make a bunch more of those uh those those stities, I'll uh pick one up from you because I uh I again I don't have any I don't have any good examples of stities that are hardened um where I can you know go back and forth and use it. I I really honestly whatever these things are made of is definitely not hardened and it's kind of a little bit on the uh uh janky side as far as like it tips over if you hammer on it too much. Uh oh yeah, and there's no there's no place to fasten it. So kind of kind of a little bit scary at times if you're really using it for something that you need to.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Well, after I made the first couple out of, I used uh just square blocks of 4140. Um I drew up a one-piece design like that, and um so it's a one-piece design, it looks like an anvil from the side, and has that thin lip on it. And uh I made it because I have a machinist friend, Greg, and every once in a while, not often, but every once in a while he would text me and say, I'm slow at the shop today. If you need anything made, let me know. And so I was always ready for him to text me that. And one day he did. So I sent him my plans and drawings and dimensions, and he milled one out on you know his $300,000 CNC machine or whatever, um, a solid S7 one piece sticky, and uh it was jackpot. I mean, it was beautiful, and this is one I use all the time. And then so I told him, Listen, if you make more, um I'll I'm sure people would buy them. So he ended up making six for me, and that those are like the six that you see like posted on Instagram, and uh I think I I have maybe one or two of those left, but um, they're solid S7, so he really did a good job on those. What is uh what is a anvil like that cost in general uh from from you to buy so those painting anvils I was selling for I don't know 150 or less, you know, they they're not super expensive. Um the Stiddies, I told Greg, I mean I I paid 400 bucks uh for them, and that's what I was selling them to the world for. It was just trying to get some out there, you know, there's no profit in it. Um he told me after he made those six, he says the last six I'm making. So it must have taken a long time. But he got all the money from it. Uh he kind of did me a favor, and uh they're good to have out there. It'd be nice if someone would make them. If someone could make, I'm sure you if you made a ton of them, you could actually make them in a profitable way, but it's hard to make small batches of anything.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah, because I I don't think that it's cost effective to get a big chunk of S7 where you could just uh water jet it out uh on the profile. Yeah, and then you know finish mill the faces or whatever, because I mean a big chunk of S7 like that would be tens of thousands of dollars, probably.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Well, I guess um, you know, that's one thing I I've dabbled as a tool maker, uh like selling stuff for other people, and I hate it. Um, you know, are you familiar with uh pin presses?

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Pin presses. Oh, for like making pins?

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Um well no, it's it's for it's for uh pressing pins in like bolsters um for um you know doing bolster work or whatever. It basically consists of a bottle jack and two bars that go up um uh vertically, and uh then you have another two bars that slide on there with springs in between them. And the bottle jack uh elevates the the bottom bar and that has an anvil on it, and the top bar usually has a another anvil or um like a conical anvil um where you can you can press pins uh uh together when you're doing bolster work, or you can you can put a like a stamp in there. Like I have I have one that's cut that's fairly modular, uh, that you you just have to have the right, I think it's a three eighths um hole in the top and bottom, and you can make little tools that you can use your bottle jacket and presses. But um, I was making them, and I think that you can functionally make Make one for maybe like 285 bucks in materials. Um, and I was selling them for $400 because of how much time it takes to tap everything and uh clean it all up and whatnot. And it has to be uh everything has to be drilled true in order to be able to align it with the vertical rods and everything. Um, but um, I just couldn't like that there was no real profit in it because after I factored in the total amount of time that it took to make that stuff over the material, I was just like, I can't do this. Yeah, like I can't economically do it. Yeah, I and I think that's probably what most people find um with making tools. It's like uh uh Tim Robertson and uh uh Tyler Turner had made those uh those jigs to uh fit scales together. Yeah. And and you know, the carbide-faced, uh drilled and tapped and hardened and everything like that. And it's like in indispensable as a knife maker to be able to use those things and not have to mess up uh handle material. But the upfront cost to uh somebody to manufacture tooling sometimes is so high that you just can't. I mean, we're a finite market of knife makers and then silk joint makers on top of that and everything. It's almost um in like you're almost not able to really make any profit at all. Um maybe I guess maybe if you can put your name on it and get uh some notoriety uh through making tooling, it's it's worth it. Uh, but not like don't quit your day job and making knives.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Well, um I I'm interested um in what like your trajectory is um uh beyond like your I mean we talked about Mastersmith a little bit, but I mean kind of what's what's next for your knife business? Like what areas are you are trying to push uh yourself into uh I don't know to differentiate yourself? I know I noticed that you don't have a website. I mean, do you sell everything that you make direct to consumer or do you work with dealers or how how exactly are you taking your the knives that you're manufactured to market?

SPEAKER_00 46:10

I normally just post a picture of them on Instagram and guys will reach out or gals and ask if it's available, and I'll sell them that way. But you know what? I don't make a ton. I mean, I don't make more than probably 20 knives a year, I would say. In the summer, I'm I'm really not out here that much. I got too many other things going on with work and other stuff, golf, whatever. Uh and in the winter, I'm out here every chance I get fire. I start a fire on Thanksgiving, and I don't think that fire goes out until end of January. You know, I'm out here a lot, it's great, and I crank out a lot of work. Trajectory-wise, I don't know. You know, I do this for fun. Um I, you know, if I'd get a if I would get an order for two knives, you know, that would become work for me. I so I very rarely try to take an order. I hate taking orders. Um even if I could sell 100 cities, I don't think I'd want to make a hundred citties. I want to do this for fun. What I figured out in all this stuff that I've done, whether it's woodworking, making bows, knives, is not that I'm fatured with the product itself. Like there's a lot of knife makers that absolutely just love knives, you know, they've carried a knife on them for 30 years. That's not really where I'm at. What I've what I figured out, what I like about it most, is being able to design something and seeing if I can make it. And after I figured out that I can do it, I'm gonna move on to the next pattern or the next tool or the next challenge. So I uh so my trajectory is is probably just making more new stuff, really. That's that's what I'm in it for. That's what's fun for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Yeah, I haven't looked at um uh so you you've done some multi-blade work, right? Um, like two blades. Have you thought about uh trying to uh push into the uh three, four, five blades?

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Yeah, you know, five blades not on my mind. Four, no. I need to make a three blader next. Yeah, that's that's on my to-do list for sure. Yeah, yeah, that'd be fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

I've always um I've always really liked the stockmans.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Um and yes, they're very cool.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Yeah, yeah. I would say like the the five blade sow belly and the three blade stockman are kind of like my if if I could quit essentially um mark a place where I'd I'd eventually like to get. But uh I don't I don't know. Like uh your improved your improved muskrat, uh, have you gotten to the point yet where you're doing catch bits or anything?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Yeah, I have catch bits right in front of me. Um I'm I'm thinking about uh basically drilling and tapping those in to the four six or for the to the the liners basically, right? I'll I'll make interval bolsters on it, and I think I'm going to use an 080 screw and screw that on such that the pivot's keeping it in place in one screw, such that I can take it apart, get everything flat, and then finally put it together. That's the way I think I'm gonna do that. Yeah. You understand what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Uh-huh, yeah. Yeah, I am yeah, though there's some interesting challenges around catch bits and um and like the overall dimensions. Like I I've just wanted to be able to make a a muskrat that uses uh their own separate springs um versus try to cram everything into a smaller space with catch bits and everything. Yeah. Um there's man, something I really admire about the the cutler, um, where they could find ways, uh, and it kind of kind of goes back to what I was talking about with the bladesmithing, where there's ways that you can uh finesse metal to your liking because you heat it and beat it. Um, but like the old colours where you can have like tapered springs, right? Like geometrically, if you try to figure that out, uh just with doing stock removal, there's so many variables that are beyond um comprehension. Like how exactly do you do this as a machinist? Um, but I've pulled apart some um you know traditional forge blades, and there might just uh they so they might have a very small catch bit and like nickel silver or something, uh, but then they also have a tapered, uh a tapered spring in addition with that. And everything looks so good um with it banged together, it's almost uh I I don't know how the how they figured that out, like uh and and what level of craftsmanship, even in production, um uh traditional like slip joints. To me, it's like I don't know. It makes like uh that's the one thing about knives, I think, that I'm I'm always humbled by how um sophisticated the thought is for something that's is seemingly so utilitarian and simplistic.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Yeah, and all all for a knife that back in the day cost like like 97 cents or something, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean, because uh some of the knives that I've broken apart couldn't have been more than more than a dollar. Um there's uh yeah, an old hankel uh multi um like a multiple blade. It was uh uh I think it was a sleeve board. Uh it was a very unique type of pattern. I haven't seen anything else um out there uh like it. And so I bought it and took it apart. And taking it apart was just a uh an exercise in frustration because like to try to mimic that same thing that I had in my hand um inside of the knife shop. Uh I don't know how exactly how I'm gonna do it. But when I get enough time in the shop, I'm gonna try it. So uh as we wind down, uh I usually ask uh uh my guests uh if there's uh pieces of advice that you could give like new makers or internet media makers, especially. Uh what are those what are those things? And you know, obviously I get uh everybody who answers that question has a you know kind of unique take on what what advice or in parting knowledge is, but what what is yours? I mean you've you've been through uh I think a lot of different uh components of tooling and knife making and everything, and uh you can answer for as many components of this craft as you want to, but I'm really fascinated to know what your answer is on that.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah, I'll give a few short pieces. So, first is you know, I think find a friend, companion, mentor, find somebody that does this stuff that you want to do. Um, you'll learn it, doesn't have to be a mastersmith, right? You'll learn from someone that's just doing the same things that you are and going through the process together because you'll learn together. Um, that's one. Two is go find what good work is and get it in your hands, look at it. You know, I learned a lot by I can make a knife and think it's great, and then you know, I'll go to a shoulder and think, God, I'm not even close, right? I mean, this my slip joints were boat anchors, you know, compared to some of these super like how thin a scale really needs to be. How what should a spring actually feel like when you open it? Those are hard things to try to figure out on your own. It's great to see others work. And then the the third one is uh I think when I do presentations on knife making, I say there's three things that will make you a good knife maker. One, you have to figure out how to get things flat, two, you have to be able to work to align very precisely, and then three, and the most important is you have to order your operations, you know, really figure out how you're gonna get something together. And what I learned going through the journey with Smith test is I could order my operations. And we all know we'll kind of order operations after we make a few knives, but a lot of times you get the urge to jump to the next one. You know, I'll fin I'll mess with that guard later, I will uh polish that blade later, you know, because you're so excited to get to the next step. What I learned through the journeyman smith process is do not move on to the next step until you're absolutely totally satisfied with the current, and doing so really will make you a better knife maker.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Yeah, I agree. Uh I found that once the handles are on, there's that that's the one of the points of no return, which I mean that's order of operation is like you you have certain points of no return. And um I I I think it was uh when I was putting um when I was uh having my knives looked at for uh getting into the guild, like just putting in for probationary uh status, like not the actual probationary expense uh uh inspection, but uh like showing my knives uh just to be able to apply. And there were some comments around uh two-inch grind lines and uh and hiding pins and things like that. And I was like, man, I don't know if I should just scrap these things and start over, or if I can actually make something out of these things. And surprisingly enough, there are ways to actually get around um points of no return. But to me, it just seems so much simpler to do it right the first time and to not uh but that's I think that's what maturity um in knives and craftsmanship actually uh teaches you uh is uh is uh make sure that you know what your order of operation is, know the the lines of delineation between points of no return and the reasons why they're there. Like uh finishing blades or refinishing blades to me just is uh a lot more difficult when you have uh uh bolsters or scales on it because there's uh definitely limits to how far you can go up the Ricasso or things to even out scratches and other things like that. So uh that is really good advice.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Well um I appreciate your uh your time and uh getting the opportunity to talk with you is a pleasure. Um I really, if you're interested sometime in going fishing, I'll see if I can make it up that way. Yeah, do it. And um uh hopefully I can see you again, uh see you at a knife show uh sometime soon. I don't I I don't know if I'll be at Atlanta next year. Uh we'll have to see how uh tables and things like that look, but I'm trying to get a table for Texas so that I don't know if you uh ever come down this way, but if you decide to um one of these days, the Texas show is actually uh set second to Atlanta, is actually a really great knife show.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

I would love to go to the Texas show. I need to do that one of these days. Yeah. Yeah, we'll meet sooner or later, Aaron, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Yeah. Well, if you decide to come down to Texas when you decide to go to a knife show, um just plan a little bit extra time and we'll go down to South Texas and we'll fish on the Guadalupe for uh Guadalupe vest.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

All right, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

All right, well, thanks a ton.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Thanks, Aaron.

SPEAKER_02 57:11

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless.